Why Star Wars Can’t Move On…
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2024
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"Star Wars is creatively bankrupt." - Rich Evans
Hollywood is creatively bankrupt
Because they didn't use the "legends" stuff.
@@aaronbennett3966 They could have easily skipped the post-Return of the Jedi parts of EU, adapting the Legacy cycle, for example (and avoiding too bizarre stories like the conflict with the Vong), instead they made the original trilogy 2.0... only for an audience of children.
Lol bro... I literally just seen your post once I left my comment 😂
@@Toshiro93 No, the Vong are too noteworthy to avoid, they should simply skip them if they don't want to deal with them.
I worked in retail bookstores between 1989-2000. After Tim Zahn's "Heir to the Empire" came out in 1991, there was a flood of Star Wars fiction (novels, short story compilations, comic books & graphic novels) that hit the shelves; people were very excited, and the books sold very well.
I'm absolutely livid that Disney chose not to access that vast resource of material to make their films. What a tragedy. 😠
That's because they're hellbent on destroying SW.
Those books had some fun plots.
I worked in Sydney CBD in the 90s (watched them make the Matrix), and there was a massive historic bookstore called Dymocks in the city and they had a whole wall of Star Wars stuff including all the EU books. I used to buy a book about once a week to read at lunchtime, and I couldn't wait for when they'd obviously make them into movies. It's still mind-boggling to me that none of them were made into movies. Should've been easy money.
Yes, the Thrawn Trilogy as it's known as. It's a three book series.
Star Wars has 6 episodes. Thats it.
Arguably 3. Before TFA, I wanted to decanonize the prequels. Now, I just don’t care.
The prequels are still canon
Their plot points are already established in the OT
I don’t know why people had such an extreme reaction to them: okay so they’re not well acted and the cgi doesn’t look very good
Attempting to erase them though with TFA ended up hurting the portion of the saga everyone liked
@@KRobinson-ko1neI thought their tone was too kiddie at several points. I didn't have an issue with the events depicted.
Just didn't rise to the level of the original three.
I understand that
I’m not saying everybody has to like them: my problem is the whole George Lucas Raped Our Childhood Movement, the aim to remove him from and his discredit him of his own franchise
@@baahcusegamer4530 Me too
Whatever disney makes, it's not Star Wars.
Well said.
"Disney Wars" is what I call it.
In fact, any time I go to Wookiepedia (a rare occurrence, thankfully), I mentally switch their tabs of "Canon" and Legends" with "Disney" and "Canon", respectively.
Hell what Lucas made without people formulating his ideas into cohesive thoughts wasn't Star Wars...
Can we exclude Andor, rogue one and the first season of the Mando from that notion?
@@AggroJordan86 Absolutely not. They're still bad and ruin the lore.
Disney paid four billion dollars for the franchise not so they could expand it as everyone else hoped, but so they could fleece it for as long as people were willing to put up with them.
Well, they kind of bought it to push 'The Message' primarily, I would say. It was another massive product to own and control, to tell us all how terrible straight men are.
The did not recoup the four billion yet, if you do the mats, Gains - Expenses of all film's, you get 2.7 billions profits. 1.3 billion in the whole, this is without counting the fact they totally destroyed the very profitable toy line that was attached to it.
They made it all in toys. Those for the old ones still sell, not even talking about all the adult fans still buying every overpriced action figure releasing.
Yeah, they did diminish the potential and no young generation will swarm to the "IP", but they can milk the old fans for the next 30+ years with collectables.
imho, the only thing of any real worth to come out of the Disney era has been "Rogue One" - which gave fans the more mature Star Wars that they had been hoping for - but when all's said and done even that is just a feature-length attempt to plug a plot-hole in Episode IV.
@@blatherskite3009 Its a great movie. That simple. Same for Andor. Great series.
Star Wars is dead. The Last Jedi ended it. It's now a genre for woke feminist socio-political activists and their sycophants. I can't even watch the originals anymore.
Older movies are almost all that's left of decent cinema with a few very rare exceptions
What's truly ironic is the new demographic you mention doesn't even support the franchise themselves (only the agendas it services).
Like every other show
Sounds like a you problem, there. Enjoy.
Star Wars was best stopped after at the first three. They saw easy money and concocted the everything after it.
Star Trek wasn’t created to tell a single story. It was a bunch of characters put in a setting where they could tell different stories each week.
Many of the original British cast playing Imperial Officers were old enough to have done National Service so they knew how real soldiers and officers behave.
Yes, the evil British space empire, they knew how to do it.
@@itzalion The point I'm making is that the modern Star Wars films portray the Imperial Officers in an unrealistic way. If you re-watch clips of the Imperial Officers in the old Star Wars films, you might notice that they are played in a very nuanced way - they are Imperial Officers because it's their job rather than because of ideology, and they are simply doing a professional job. Some of the officers look uncomfortable in the presence of Vader and with what they are having to do. This makes the whole thing more realistic. You feel 'suspension of disbelief'.
The character and behaviors of those British style imperial officers in the old trilogy were one of the biggest things that made the films for me. They felt real because they were phenomenal actors. And most of them actually did service for the British Empire, so they actually lived it.
@@derekc180 That's right! For example, Julian Glover was the AT-AT Commander in the Empire Strikes Back - he did National Service and also went to my old school - Alleyn's that has always had a very large and well supported Cadet Force complete with armoury with rifles and General Purpose Machine Guns.
We can all but be assured that, according to Dawn of the Jedi, the first Jedi is an all powerful, all conquering girl boss. Her name will probably be “Dawn” as well for lack of creativity on the part of the writers.
The force will be created by a female too, in conjunction with female midichlorians.
Almost her name will be Mayo. It's a male name for black males from Zimbabwe meaning "heart". Because, it honors their culture in America and Africa, and goes against expectations!
Close. Most likely will be a guy and he becomes the first Sith and betrays a women who becomes the first Jedi.
@@halacron1 and he will be albino to really make it obvious
And it'll be a toss-up to see if they bring back the 'plug-into-battery' lightsabres from the EU.
From what I've seen Disney cut themselves off at the knees when they decannonised the EU.
They had a vast well spring to draw from, but they'd rather sit beside it and go thirsty.
Anything for the messag e, eh
Considering how much of it, they've had to recanonize... Or perhaps rehabilitate is a better word.
The eu was the only thing that was worthy following as moving on from the series
@@Deridus Reimagined for Modern Audiences.
The EU was never *really* canon, since George (quite properly) ignored it whenever he chose to do so.
The only canon sequel trilogy was written by Timothy Zahn.
Agreed. And Han & Leia had twins, not Darth Emo.
@@L0-R3Z I want Han to be a Father to three children, and not a runaway husband.
And Luke and Mara Jade had Ben Skywalker. (In my head canon, Ben Skywalker's middle name is Owen. Just saying...)
@@krispalermo8133 Head canon is a beautiful thing. There are 6 SW movies. Plus a Star Trek Kelvin timeline never happened.
@@emdee8840 Ben Owen Skywalker, ..
BOS.
These are not the Star Wars movies we're looking for.
They deleted all source material made their own lore breaking source material. And blamed long term fans for pointing it out.
Imagine when Disney got the rights to Marvel. Imagine if they erased all stories and characters. And say there isint enough source material to go on. They make their own characters an heroes. And blame the fans for not liking them.
Very much what they've done.
But it’s not really “new” when they try to make characters and places an equivalent of elements in the Legends, that’s derivative.
I'm assuming you're referring to the Expanded Universe. That stuff worked cause it wasn't canon, and you could pick and choose what you liked. There was as much crappy EU stuff as there was good ones. For every good thing like the Thrawn trilogy, you'd have some really bad stuff like Dark Empire.
The problem is that Star Wars just don't translate well to TV shows, as this video accurately pointed out. It's a small universe and franchise that truly don't have a lot of source material. It's basically mythology stories set in space, and that's why the original movies worked so well. The prequels did irreversible damage to the franchise before Disney got their hands on it. I just assume a lot of fans have forgotten how badly those movies were received in reaction to how disappointing the sequel trilogy was, or it's a young generation who didn't grow up with them in real time.
@@mikemurdock7234 Actually, it was canon, proof is found with how George wasn’t always out to retcon every little detail found within it. In fact, the PT is filled to the brim with references to the EU, and the Special Editions had ships and characters originating from the EU. Star Wars’ expanded universe isn’t like Star Trek’s expanded universe, even the films aren’t the retcony and contradictory mess and filth that ol Star Trek is.
@@FMK03 There was a hierarchy of canon, and Lucas put things that were originally EU into actual movies.
The EU is Star Wars and that is something that Disney will never understand.
EU forever, never Legends.
The TNG-Enterprise was trying to entertain. Nu Trek, Nu Dr. Who and Nu Star Wars is trying to fundamentally transform the entire western culture.
The Borg suddenly seem like a rather prescient symbol of what was to come.
"We are the Borg. Lower your defenses and surrender yourselves. We will dismiss your biological and technological distinctiveness for our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
There will be no escape from THE MESSAGE!
Nu Trek, Nu DW, and NU SWs - vinigar in old wine sacks.
THANK YOU. That's exactly it. We need to understand we are in a cultural revolution! But so many people still seem clueless.
@@LRK-GT Janeway in that tv series made for kids gave a speech about how everyone should work together for the greater good, and sacrifice so others can go on... And I said "This sounds an awful lot like a collective..." She might have even said like "get over your personal feelings" it was scary Borg-like. It's something Ive been wanting to find to bring up more for that reason. It spat in the face of her character and Trek.
Disney's failure to re-establish a Jedi Order has effectively cut off any chance the franchise has to proceed forward in story telling.
They couldn’t allow Luke his ending, so they crapped on the future.
All they had to do was follow the Expanded Universe. But no, they just had to ruin it with their own nonsense.
They made Luke a prequel Jedi and Jaked him. Its dead Jim.
@matthewgaudet4064 that's a good way of putting it. They literally made the O.T. the prequels. They don't really push the story at all. That was my firsts thoughts coming out of TFA when I saw it in theatre. They undid everything.
@@cancelme4200 Oh, if only you knew how dumb you sound right now. The OT was made in quite literally the exact opposite way, to appease OT stans like yourself, the ones who wanted practical effects, the ones who hated the Midichlorians, JJ Abrams was just like you and TFA is the most shallow of the ST, that's because it's the most fanservicey towards OT stans. Basically, you deserve the ST in all its destructive glory.
Star Wars may not move on, but I could and I Will.
I *did*. I think George Lucas even said in "From Star Wars to Jedi...", "You can never go home again".
Star Wars did move on. With the prequels, and the expanded universe.
Everything was fine.
Dave clearly hasn't moved on.
I still say Star Wars should move forward a least by a millennium.
@@evertonporter7887 It didn't have a chance to. I actually have an idea for a character that would propel the universe to 4,447 years after ANH, that's how much I wanted to push the story beyond the scope of the films.
Looking back, they killed star wars when they de-cannonized the EU. There are unique stories that could be told in star wars, but this incarnation of Lucas film is incapable of telling them.
The difference is that "Star Wars" had a definitive story where "Star Trek" was just exploring space.
It's like the difference between US comics and Japanese ones. American comics, the series anyway, don't have a single story but go from story to story over many years while most Japanese comics are limited runs with a singular story with a start, middle, and ending. Yeah, I'm sure there are exceptions but by and large that is the case.
That's a great comparison.
It can't move because as a trusty doctor used to say: "it's dead, Jim"
*_"They're all dead, Dave."_*
"It's over Johnny...., IT'S OVER!"
It's Game Over Man, It's Game Over...
"NOTHING IS OVER! YOU DON'T JUST TURN IT OFF!" (Not a comment on the Star Wars franchise, I just couldn't help but quote First Blood!)
@@ebinrock I completely understand and I'll allow it. (lol)
"Game over man GAME OVER!"
@@ebinrockI love you, you eat me to it
What needed to happen is a sequel trilogy that showed the difficulty of restoring things. When the rebels overthrow the government, they ARE the government. Then the problems begin. And you have Luke restoring the Jedi order. BUT: that requires writing. Good, solid writing. The past keeps getting revisited because the writing simply isn’t there.
Yeah, people already did that writing. Timothy Zahn, Michael Stackpole, etc. The whole EU is all about that!
And Disney ignored it all.
@@grantjohnson4810 so I hear! And like you said, Disney’s first act: “It’s not canon.” A damn shame.
What you're missing here, Dave, is that Star Wars under Disney cannot move past the Original Trilogy visuals and settings. It's always a slight variation of Rebels vs Empire.
The Expanded Universe novels and comics and games did what Star Trek did as you've described.
It cannot move beyond the originals, the prequels, and the expanded universe
@@maxmazzotti6651 And it fails at rehashing all of them altogether.
Well said, though tbh some of the early EU novels do sound a bit like Rebels vs Empire, though I haven't many of them myself so my source is really just hearsay.
@@EmperorsWrath It was fine back then because :
1. The OT was all the movie material they had, and even then it still expanded the lore meaningfully with Thrawn, Inquisitors, Emperor's Hands and various warlords.
2. It wasn't the ONLY timeline explored, as Tales of The Jedi was set 4000 years before the movies, setting the stage for KOTOR and SWTOR
@@yrooxrksvi7142 True, I knew about TOTJ but I hadn't thought about what they would have had to go on.
Royalties. Disney did not want to pay for the Expanded Universe (CANON). The Yuzzhon Vong and Darth Caedus storylines were there for the taking. Nope. Money, money, money.
If they cared about money they would remove the woke nonsense. Instead, their mission seems to be to roughly break even, and from there, shove The Message™ down viewers throats at every opportunity (while also bolstering CZcams critics).
Legacy of the Force was already bad but they still managed to make it worse
Short-sightedness at its finest. They could have paid for rights and made billions. But instead they're killing a cash-cow with vastly inferior writing.
If they had been proper custodians of the franchise, we could be sitting here talking about the first trillion dollar franchise. Whatever they would have had to pay for royalties would have paled in comparison to gross revenues, as well as overall market expansion. No. They chose to do a bloody coup, and crash the plane with no survivors while humiliating and castigating the onlookers with pure spite and bitterness. They deserve bankruptcy for their treachery.
Its not about money, its abouy pusjing 1obera1ism
7:48 I think that Knights Of The Old Republic 2, as a prequel did a fine enough job at deconstructing things in a way that feels immersive and expansive for the world of Star Wars especially given how it is more of a self-contained story.
KOTOR 2 is just Chris Avellone having a nihilistic wank session over how much he hates and misunderstands Star Wars
kotor 2 is a sequel to kotor
What’s crazy is that they had plenty of Star Wars prequels, and sequels that were great…
Only it was in the EU, that was taken out back and sent to the giant space farm in the other galaxy
Or how the mystery of the Space Jockey was ruined by Prometheus. Ugh…
YEP. I cant wait to find out that the first Jedi sees Darth Vader in a vision... u_u *flustered sigh*
I’d say alien covenant ruined it. Prometheus left too many unanswered questions to ruin it .
Dave Cullen: “I’m not saying Star Trek is better than Star Wars,”
Me: “he totally thinks Star Trek is better than Star Wars! Thank you!!!!!!”
Not even the video games can move past the original trilogy, EA has an obsession with Darth Vader to the point where they turned him into an omnipresent juggernaut. Vader is cool and all, but it’s well past time to have a main villain that isn’t him or a suck up to him.
He is what the woketards look up to as an example to follow, while Luke gets ignored. Ponder that for a second...
Vader really should learn how to delegate, our man can't be everywhere
The two games “Knights of the Old Republic” I and II provided excellent heroes and villains, especially the latter where there was a ton of nuance and philosophy. But what happens in those games, who wins and who loses and how, are determined by the player. I do not want them touched for fear that there will be an established “canon” timeline.
You should check them out.
@@abcdefghij337 I know about the Knights of the Old Republic games and I don’t want them touched either. The modern remaster of the first one was thankfully canceled.
As a Star Wars channel I can assure you that it's never been worse and they keep digging the grave even deeper then ever. There was always an expectations since DIsney bought Star Wars that they would ruin it, but this was far beyond anything we could imagine. Never have I seen thus fair such bastardization of a franchise such as this.
KOTOR: Am I a joke to you?
Disney: Yes.
:(
I Will make my own star wars history in my mind to save it 😩
I pretend that everything pre disney never happened and i have been living in pure bliss ever since😂
Great, can you write it down and tm it?
Stick with the original EU
@@FoulPet ofcoz
With blackjack! and hookers!
They have had the whole expanded universe. They could have gone thousands of years in the future or in the past.
The SW EU moved on just fine from the OG Trilogy. Then KK decided to use none of it for the sequel trilogy.
I made up my mind after Ahsoka that for me nothing Disney exists. I’m going back to the old EU I loved.
I can imagine the opening: "A REALLY long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away ..."
That would be The Acolyte.
Nah, not Zoomer-y enough. Maybe something like "Like, Totally, Dude, a way, way long time ago and stuff, in some galaxy like a Bajillion miles away or some sh*t"🤣🤣
@@atomicninjaduck9200 "On God, no cap"
Commandant Lassard version: 'A very very very very long time ago in a galaxy far far far far away'
When the activist misandry era ends, Star Wars can live again. Right now it is Disney whipping a corpse.
Misandry and all of its bastard marxist offspring are the dark side; they know it, we know it, the normies know it, but only WE are singled out, hunted down for their insatiable need for a dark time
From what I have seen, most of the Expanded Universe is incredible, and it is filled with stories that are, by definition, prequels to the movies. There are even stories I rank more highly than both trilogies (the Legacy, Republic, and KOTOR comics, the Darth Plagueis novel, the 2003 Clone Wars show, etc.), and I have personally been able to find enjoyment in some of the more mediocre stories, like the Dawn of the Jedi series, Legacy II and some of the later SWTOR expansions. I think it’s unfair to say that Star Wars has a problem with prequels, since they contribute to the vast world-building of Star Wars in ways that none of the movies (especially the OT) didn’t or never could. For instance, look at the Old Republic era: the Tales of the Jedi comics (still angry that Dave Filoni and crew ripped the name and font style DIRECTLY for that show they made not too long ago) were, by definition, a prequel, and not only did they enrich the world by showing a consistent look of what the galaxy looked like 4000-5000 years before A New Hope, but they also inspired the KOTOR games, some of my favorite narratives in all of science fiction, and the Darth Bane novels, which also set up a lot of things for both of George’s trilogies. Not to mention the books and comics about Darth Maul, which had the opportunity of exploring his past since the first time we saw him was when he died. Unfortunately the CGI Clone Wars show made the mythic atmosphere of SW far more childish and convoluted than the prequel trilogy ever could-and I say that as someone who used to be a hardcore fan of that show. I don’t completely agree that the past should remain as mysterious as possible, as I personally hate the concept of an unreliable narrator in storytelling and I value concrete and consistent lore above almost everything else. Say what you will about the last part but that is just how I feel.
If they had just set the disney trilogy 200 ABY, there would be less of a problem. That way the books and comics of the EU wouldn't have been affected and the original heroes wouldn't have been humiliated.
The problem is that you need a strong creative team to push for something like that. The senior management at Disney aren't going to be happy that there won't be any 'memberberries. You're facing pressure over casting because we're looking to 'make the Force Female' so you need as many strong female leads as you can fit in. You then face demands to make it about the Jedi because we need to sell those lightsabre toys.
Kingdom Of The Planet Of The Apes shows what can be done. That movie is set hundreds of years after the reboot trilogy and can tell a story of its own.
Except that humiliation and feminization was the whole point of the...experiment. They wanted to wreck it.
I never thought I'd be meh about star wars movies but here we are. I literally have no desire to see the new Rey or Mandalorian movie. I'm more excited about all the commentary and videos we'll get.
There's a new Rey movie? I quit after the one where they went to the evil capitalists planet for absolutely no reason. Can't remember which one that was, but I didn't want to go back after that.
Destruction of the franchises and demoralization of the fans is what they want.
@@ClifftopTragedy TLJ. People are *still* defending that movie
A Mando movie? Ugh. The third season sucked, Zev was the ONLY thing (member berry) which I considered positive. Ergo, I won't be watching either. I remember being pumped for SW 7 - After it was over, blech, "The Force Snoozes" - in the immortal words of Bruce Wayne in Batman Beyond, S 01 E 01 - "Never again."
Because the objective was always to destroy
With a graveyard worth of IPs it’s hard to deny it at this juncture. So many stories and worlds just burned to the ground with such infantile vindictiveness.
@@surlyunicorn9461 if you wanna get conspiratorial just look at who owns these ips now and notice how any trace of german militarism (or white militarism) was erased from media.
Whites are now depicted as incompetent
Exactly this. I don't know how many times I can say so people will finally understand that.
@@Yesica1993 youtube removed my comment. but it's basically an attack on any form of "european" militarism. by the tribe that shall not be named
@@jwb_666 What tribe is that? Do tell.
Your comment about Doctor Who was spot on. The Timeless Child storyline took away what made the character of The Doctor so fascinating. It took away the mystery and mystique surrounding him.
And, I'm supportive of the representation of members of certain communities like myself, but when representation comes across like a public service announcement the entertainment value of the show diminishes.
The Jedi founder will be a black woman. Every beginning narrative now always has to originate with a black woman.
I'm still hoping George eventually buys it back for $1.
Star Wars! It will always be Star Wars. Not this "New Hope" crap. And Han shot first!
Now get off my lawn!
I was there in 77.
And he did, too!
The other major difference between Star Wars and Star Trek is that the timeline means more to Star Wars than Star Trek. In Star Wars, the Jedi were wiped out by order 66. So you have to work around that event if people want to continue to see Jedi.
AotC, Yoda says, " 15,000 trained Jedi there are, but only 3,000 to call to battle at the moment."
That doesn't cover, young students, padawans that didn't past their test and now work in other departments that don't involve direct combat.
As for myself as a child seeing Star Wars and Kenobi cutting off that guy's arm in the bar, " Wow, cool ! "
As a teenager I was like, " If he was in hiding, you just taser the two bar jerks to draw less attention to yourself."
In legends, Han Solo home star sector had the Corillian Green Jedi sect that had their own way to handle things. The empire had a hell of the time Purging them, but they had a history of bloodlines tied up in smuggler clans.
Then you have fanfic, of D&D RPG wargamers that are history nerds. The Jedi/Sith been around for thousands of years, it is like how Xtinity tried to stomp out paganism in Europe.
Dawn of the Jedi was done ten years ago. Before the dark times. Before DisCorp.
Legacy Took the story a hundred years after the EU novels. In a much better narrative than DisCorp has created.
The EU expanded well beyond the constraints of the original trilogy and dos fairly well for itself.
It can be done and has been done. Its just not able ro be done by these current crop of writers. And honestly at this point, i dont think it matters anymore.
Its a ruined franchise that will never again have the cultural relevance it once had.
They never learn to quit while they're ahead. The first three movies should have been the end. They've flogged it to death and it leaves a bad taste.
But by that line of thought they should already have quit after A new Hope. I am glad they didn't.
Greed will be the down fall of humanity
Many of the novels were very good and could have made good movies if they had been done soon after the original trilogy, but the prequels weren't good.
Can’t really agree with that logic. You can keep going as long as you have a story to tell. Which is I guess like being ahead. Star Wars did pretty well because it expanded on what was already there with books and games and only added the prequels as movies (I don’t count The Clone Wars movie since that was just a cartoon pilot movie that probably shouldn’t have gotten a theatrical release). I wouldn’t even say Disney flogged Star Wars to death by virtue of making more content. The problem was that they made mediocre to bad content with a very obvious agenda. As the success of the EU showed, there was plenty of room for more stories, but they needed to be a continuation, not tearing down what was already there.
@@virtualrealityfitness283 Greed AKA the love of money.
Long live the Star Wars Holiday Special
I'll take a silly Star Wars TV special over this stuff any day.
Goddamn right.
I am just in the middle of a Star Trek: TNG binge right now. Funny that you compared the two, and you're right on--ST can take more risks (not to say all risks should be taken) and SW doesn't know how to be anything but the OT, but we already have the OT. Lucas, for all his flaws, set out to do something different with the Prequels. I agree about the immaturity of them and the terrible dialogue, but the world-building and overall story arc were great. Zahn did something different with the Thrawn Trilogy. ST is just the OT in sheep's clothing.
I think you misspelled "shit" as "sheep".
Star Trek (like Law & Order) was about stories. The characters were developed through their interaction with it. It had a soft entry into the culture, which gave it time to mature in the minds of fans. Star Wars hit immediately with a single movie and it cemented its characters, setting, and other elements as a part of it as part of its identity. It has never been able to move on because of this. I actually think it can, but it is difficult. Star Wars needs to become about more than its original characters and setting. Star Trek has also sunk into that trap, acting as though its specific characters are solely responsible for its popularity, but that has not traditionally been the case - TNG proved this.
There's also something to be said about the countless attempts at creating a definitive "ending to end all endings" for various franchises in recent times, only to wind up not actually ending anything at all. Instead, it just becomes one more solution among many already existing solutions for a problem that never really existed in the first place. Evangelion is perhaps another good example of this paradox -- neither the studio nor director can ever seem to move on even though the main story was concluded almost 30 years ago with continuous spinoffs, merchandising, and an entire reboot taking place ever since with further installments being planned even now. It's not unlike what we've seen in the American film industry, and shows that the problem isn't relegated to affecting Western productions only.
you got a pretty good point there reminds me of a recent magical girl franchise called madoka magica which was supposed to end at rebellion but corporate made them change the ending which made rebellion one of the most controversial entries in the series.
The problem with Evangelion was that it was unfinished. There was always that temptation dig it back up to provide an ending and then to 'improve' on the original because now you have a bigger budget and studio. The problem that Western Studios have, IMHO, is that they don't have the creative element that they used to. It's been ground down by managerial oversight and socio-political stupidity. Now there's no real talent left in the industry and it's just churning through it's old IP's in order to try to find something that will sell.
@@LoneWolf-rc4go That's not exactly what happened with the series tbh, it's more just revisionism by the fandom (and there's plenty of it). The original television/theatrical movie was very much indeed a finished product and represented the metaphorical death of the Evangelion project. The reboot exists primarily as a safe and easy way for Studio Khara to generate box office revenue (since the Japanese are notorious consoomers) and merchandise sales with some initial differences due to various behind the scenes production hell and legal disputes (before Anno being Anno took its toll on the rest of it). It's a bit of a long story, but in the end the effect is pretty much the same as what we see with various Hollywood reboots such as those affecting Star Wars and Star Trek but with the Japanese spin. The difference is that people are a lot less harsh on it because it's thing, Japan and are blinded by the reality distortion field.
I also think people praise it for more superficial reasons, such as because it contrasts with said injection of said socio-political gibberish in American media nowadays. It's like how what was once seen as the symbol of mass produced garbage (such as Bayformers) is now being looked upon fondly because of the further degradation in quality that has taken place since.
What do you think about Stephen King's "ending" of the Dark Tower Cycle?
Prequels are something I've never been keen on. As you say, they can undermine canon (destroying what fans have built up in their own minds.) I accept a creator might want to go back to the earlier days of his creation, but I have big concerns about people with no connection to an original going back into the past. No one on modern Star Trek has any link to 1960s Star Trek. While they might have the legal right to make prequels that fundamentally alter TOS characters, I don't believe they have the moral right. If they want to make sequels to the TNG era, fine: I can ignore those if I want. When they try to change my perception of the original series I switch off. Enterprise at least had people who worked with Gene Roddenberry on it. Discovery and Strange New Worlds should never have been made. The same goes for Star Wars - George made three prequels and his company did the Clone Wars. Disney can make all the sequels they want, because they don't take away the originals; they can be ignored as someone else's idea of what happens next if necessary. I despise all this new material being set in the past, which has nothing to do with George Lucas and what he created. I'd go so far as to call it disrespectful.
The only thing that the prequels changed were the headcanon of the OT fans.
OT stans, actually. Fans can just be fans, but stans are the ones who desperately wanted their preconceptions and headcanons accepted into official canon, like the children they are.
@@FMK03 exactly, and they were the most vocal against the prequels especially yoda in AOTC they didn't like him as a warrior
Imo some of the ridiculous “og fans” are the reason we got the sequel movies we did. While some of the complaints were genuine, they directly led to the Disney dumpster fire. I really will never understand their vitriol for movies that expanded the world and created amazing video games. And for what? To get cheap and terrible copies of the original trilogy? Smh
I was watching some scenes of the original trilogy and goodness, we are light years away from that kind of writing. Everything about the scenery, pacing, dialogues, it's all really well done.
Unfortunately even though I'm sure there are talented writers and directors out there, so long as these corporations keep obsessing with DEI and THE MESSAGE we'll never get that level of quality again.
Star Wars lives on…in my mind, in my media collection, memorabilia, reruns, and conversations with my friends who believe as I do. The Force will always be strong inside me.
There’s a ton of books and comics from the old EU. Hopefully, one day Disney will allow the old EU to continue alongside their canon.
@@crusader2112 Actually, hopefully, the EU will be recanonized and recognized as the EU and discanon will be relegated to being called 'Myths', a play on the EU being called Legends.
@@FMK03 Sounds good. 👍
This is something I think is often overlooked in why Star Trek is so special, it acknowledged time. TNG showed the universe created in TOS as it had progressed 80 years later, DS9 and VOY showed the years that followed, even the original movies showed characters that had aged and changed with time. I don't think it would have grown to be what it became if TNG was just a remake of TOS or just 'elsewhere in the Federation'. Very few other franchises have had the opportunity to build something like this (beyond maybe Star Wars and to a lesser extent some very long running soap operas). Focusing on the past by expanding on it (or worse re-writing it) is just ignoring this amazing opportunity to grow and explore the opportunities of such an interesting setting, spinning its wheels without going anywhere. I didn't really like the idea of blowing up Romulus or the decay of the Federation in post 2009 Star Trek, but I would still like to see how the galaxy moves past these setbacks and rebuilds. As cool as something like the early Romulan War or Klingon War for example is to think about, doing a TV series or film about them is at best telling us what already know, and is a minefield for breaking all kinds of set continuity and altering characters or cultures (as seen in the first few seasons of Disco and SNW). As you say it's best left up to the imagination. Even from a production point of view, new fans are more likely to be created and care about new characters and events, with the added opportunity to look back at old series as a history of the new series they enjoy (much like the new fans who joined during the TNG run could), rather then being told "look at your grandpas favourite show, this is the same but cooler so like it". Sorry this is a little off topic with ST instead of SW.
Star Wars sequels could have moved on if they had respected the franchise and actually had a vision on an interesting new story plot. Yet as we all intimately know by now they had other priorities going into this.
Star Wars is firmly in the hands of the fans now I recommend everyone go and watch the fanmade project Heir to the Empire part one
There was a lot of fun in the Prequel Trilogy. As I look back with nostalgia even the grubby bits are brighter. ✌️🤠
I have to admit this podracing, the lightsaber duels helped made the prequels remarkable to me.
As long as Star Wars / Disney isn't interested in telling exciting, satisfying stories there is no reason to continue consuming their product. Episodes IV - VI had something in common that simply doesn't exist with the newer films and television series...they were fun. They each featured interesting, charismatic characters which the current day productions are not permitted to utilize to tell a compelling story. I keep hoping that one day Star Wars will rediscover the formula that launched the franchise in the first place but my hope fades with every new film that is proposed.
There will have to be a fallow period before that. After Disney is convinced it has wrung every last dollar or yuan out of it.
That will require alot of research and dissecting the original films to discover what made them good in the first place as well as fan trust to gain back will require alot of work.
Ah come on....the prequels were good but we watched them as adults ...we still watch the originals as children
they are going to erase ALL the "Legends" information that's out there...
Kathleen Kennedy said it best "There's no source material, We don't have comic books. We don't have 800-page novels. We don't have anything other than passionate storytellers who get together and talk about what the next iteration might be."
The origins of the Sith and the Jedi have been done in video games, books, comics, etc.
Star trek fans are just defeated at this point. Star wars fans still seem to have fight left in them
They and Dr Who fans are mistaken.
I'm a Star Trek fan and I don't feel defeated. Strange New Worlds is good. Picard season 3 was great.
Agreed.
@@WorldPeace21 Sol lowering standards into utter garbage and then bring it up to just above trash level works on some people.
@@WorldPeace21 SNW is like a Star Trek *Comedy* Dude
Star Wars has long since been exploring its past outside of movies and shows through the old republic era games and books. Attempts to expand the timeline and explore both the distant past and distant future already exist. Disney is too afraid to do this so they choose to bank off nostalgia instead.
As the one, great and late, Richard Evans once said..
"Star Wars is creatively bankrupt".
Shame that Disney isn't (financially) bankrupt
@@tonygreenfield7820 they're getting there. Hopefully sooner than later.
Rich Evans is dead? Since when?
Or should we just take it as a "tell us you don't know what that term means without telling us you don't know"?
@@LateralTwitlerLT you take the internet too fucking seriously.
@@glorbog So, option "had absolutely no clue", then.
All due respect, my friend and I do respect you, I agree with you quite often, actually; I'm not sure I do here though. I don't think Star Wars is faiiling or struggling because of its cinematic nature versus Star Trek's episodic nature. I actually think it has more to do with Disney's total disregard for the franchise's identity and storytelling millieu. Two plus decades of stories were created in the Star Wars universe with a wide variety of storytelling styles and genres with varied levels of success. But so much of it did succeed because the writers/creators understood Star Wars, respected it, indeed, they revered it, and it showed in the product; a product which we Star Wars fans ate up. Disney looked at the whole of this property they bought, said something to the effect of, "this is crap and we can do better," and then went and did whatever they wanted and told us we were nuts or hateful if we didn't like it. That's why Star Wars failed.
The last time Star Wars went 25k was in Dark Horse Comics: Tales of the Jedi.
Yet we see Disney take that title and run with a Dooku origins story. 😳🙄
I think the only reason they used the title was so they could erase the existence of the original Tales of the Jedi. It seems so vindictive and petty to me.
I agree, Legends is good lore.
Star Wars can’t move on because it’s destroyed it’s foundation. It has to repair it to move on.
No, disney wars can't move on because it's too obsessed over the Skywalker saga, the rebels vs. the empire, filoni-verse, and the OT and PT eras. Star Wars has moved on, there are hundreds, if not, thousands of stories that go beyond the Skywalkers, be it tens, hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of years BEFORE or even ones set DURING the PT and OT eras. Please educate yourself on what true Star Wars is, and don't listen to dave, who is very much biased towards Star Trek, ol Star Trek, to be exact. Especially because he seems to not be aware of Star Wars' continuity and any of the stories that aren't even about the Skywalkers and the grand drama of the PT and OT.
@@FMK03 No one really Knows what Star Wars is about, not even G.L.
We just have a general ideal of the concept of it.
( it is a story realm that creates itself.)
a.) Marvel " Classic " Star Wars comics from the early 1980's before TEsB. " New paper strip comic tie in."
G.L. called up the artist and asked about an imperial officer that looks interesting, it was the artist cousin used as a model. The artist cousin end up as Admiral Piet.
Many one-shot background characters in the 1980's comics that took orders from Vader end up in 1990's Dark Horse comics and novels that Luke & Leia had to deal with decades later. As foe or off the political stage allies.
b.) Side small note darkside character from Dark Empire series, later recon as an Emperor Hand worked with Mara Jade. Later recon in the novels as being from OLD family money tied in commercial trade who happens to be a long line of Sith cultist that back Palpatine. In Jedi Academy Leia & Han teenage twins jokily called him Darth Logistics because he rather be down at the port docks brokering cargo deals and playing cards.
c.) They took side comic characters that work for Vader, and wrote them into the Han Solo trilogy along with Lando Calrissian books taking place before New Hope. Treated them as smuggler buddies, and later reveled they were Vader's spy network when the Solo twins were teenagers. There was a running joke that Vader & Palpatine had assassins on all the major Rebel ships to take out the high command any time the Emperor wanted. Later used during the Prequels as Order 66.
Loved the side plot covering ten years of novels jumping across over 15years of in universe time. Along with chapters of side stories of smugglers & imperials That Never meet the main characters, just happen to be in their area when things went south. Who happen to drop off cargo at the right moment to save the main characters mission. Odd luck, the way of the Force.
d.) G.L. pet passion project, " Shadows of the Empire " video game, comic series, toy series, and novel.
i.) Luke was capture and escape from bounty hunters, Vader sent a squad of storm troopers capturing the hunters after Luke escape. Vader wanted a report on Luke's abilities, and the trooper commander stated that his unit lost some good soldiers and what was to be done to the hunters. ( Wanted to kill them.)
ii.) Vader stated that their deaths serve no purpose and to release them.
The trooper commander was upset with the order and Vader threaten him not to repeat himself and the trooper comply.
The hunters, one said he knows the drill and hands over future contact information, and another offer to let the storm trooper to get a free hit to break his jaw if it makes him feel better that he lost a few friend.
( later, both those troopers & hunters end up working in Vader's spy network after RotJ. when Luke meets them again.
Luke was surprise they were relax and help him on his mission. Reason why was Vader pay them really really well a few times over the years setting them up for life. So they felt they had a favor life debt to repay.)
Follow up a few years later mini comic series " Jedi vs Sith " told by children POV, later written as the Bane novels.
Bane, " Why you spare your cousin's life ?"
Zan, "His death serves no purpose at the moment."
( Out the mouth's of babes.)
@@krispalermo8133 Star Wars is mainly about the Skywalkers, especially Anakin, but yeah, you're not that far off, actually. In fact, I'd argue you're on point.
@@FMK03 Thank you, I am 47years old and back in grade school during the 1980's in Florida I got firsthand view of the Satanic panic through the Southern Baptist church my mom & second husband drag us children to. Their Sunday school tried to paddle me into believing my grandparents were going to hell cause they were Catholic/Lutheran.
By 9/10years old my dad firmly rooted my spiritual views in Star Wars, Star Trek, .. already seen that Dune movie ..
Well, I am from a veteran family of mix martial arts. So by the time I was ten, I have already met some weird people and saw strange things where the elders just laugh it off.
G*D, I grew up hating my mom. You know .. control freak bull shit. Then have my grandparents guilt trip me over how lucky I was to be alive. It wasn't because of god, it was Modern Medical practice that saved my granny with a risky at the time C section. As for my mom she had to have her lungs drain before she could breath, greased flexible tubing was a new thing. IF, If, .. my grandmother was One Year older, moving my mom's birth back a year, she would have drowned at birth and I would not be typing this. ( How this relate to Star Wars ?)
What, IF .. ?
a.) At one time DC comics were doing so poor in sales, Marvel was going to buy them out.
b.) Early silver age Superman was such a D-CK, you were hard press to see how Batman let alone anyone was friends with him. It was After the character Spiderman came out did Superman was portray as a boy scout.
c.) Comics as a whole nearly tank multiple time before the late 1970's.
d.) What If the toy company didn't split apart creating Mattel, resulting in no He-Man action figure and cartoon series. Which toy company run the Star Wars figures ?
f.) So many things had to be at the right place & time for G.L. to create Star Wars.
Even the novels were a on going rehash of WW II and the Cold War, ...
No SW isn't Shakespear, SW is the retelling of recent history in a different context to connect the past to the present.
g.) Other than Star Wars was his pet project of writing his own life, other help create the Hero Journey with him.
h.) Xwing Rogue Squadron series, Luke really wasn't in those novels. Those stories could be dropped in any other sandbox and it still will work.
i.) How many times can you spot G.L. Yellow Hot Rod in the series ?
Anakin's pod racer, Naboo star fighter, AotC the car Anakin borrow for the sky car chase, RotS opening Anakin star fighter. Then the Clone War cartoons, all the comics over the years.
j.) As for how bad people complain on the Disney trilogy, when Luke was training Rey, all I could think of, THAT is How my grandparents prank me over the years growing up. Mark is a great fun-loving guy.
Someone please tell these annoying tampons to shut up already............
Hey tampons men don't want you to make us any movie or sandwich or happy.......
Get lost and get out of my sports bar.....
Legends grew up. Hollywood can't.
Star Wars throughout the 90s and 2000s did expand throughout the universe in novels, comics, video games and even the better Clone Wars shows both 2D and 3D which were great. What I didn't like about what RLM did was contribute to that terrible documentary People vs. George Lucas which no doubt made him separate from the franchise and look what happened.
The biggest problem with Solo was that it was about Han Solo. Give me a Dash Rendar story, or just a random Jedi adventure set in the KOTOR age.
Just a movie named "Katarn", and having it be a rip off of the last blockbuster spy-action flick, would've worked.
Hell, they completely missed out on making Jan Ors a Girlboss 😂
I don’t think it being about Han Solo was the problem. Eh, I take that back. I think the biggest flaw was that it was a movie and not a series or miniseries. He had a whole trilogy in the EU giving his backstory that held up pretty well. I think the most important part of that was that it didn’t cram everything worth knowing about him into a single book or even into that trilogy.
It wasn’t a horrible film all in all. Just squeezed too much into one film.
Would like to see a sport movie set in the star wars universe, for example a pod racing themed movie.
Why nobody thought of that I woulda loved it because I loved the podracing segments give it an fzero like feel and also brings new life into star wars.
The Podrace scene was one of the best parts of TPM... and I'm not even that into racing! It was a high-stakes edge-of-your-seat event that wasn't a "battle" in the usual sense. I don't know why so many people trashed it back in the day...
If it didn't have a progressive bent on it, hell yeah!
Giedi Prime…. The Harkonnen home world… can’t unhear that.
We were fine with the EU (or Legends as Disney insists on calling them). So much content, both well before and well after the OT made it all so much better in the long run and gave it deep and comprehensive lore which few IPs could match in terms of sheer depth. And the great thing was that it was being expanded all the time, under so many different and talented creative minds.
I've been wondering for YEARS why they don't do a movie trilogy on the Old Republic vs the Sith Empire, thousands of years before the time of the current movies. It would open up a completely new opportunity for characters, new (old) technologies, an epic conflict of two galactic forces clashing, and seeing worlds that are ruined by time in the current movies, in their full glory.
Your aversion to SW prequels is irrational as it does not take place in the real world, and if it did, it takes place millions of years ago.
It reminds me of the Terminator franchise. While I love the post apocalypse world and the flashes of war - the mystery was demolished by movies made after T2.
The same applies to the OG Star Wars and Obi Wan telling Luke about his father. Whatever you make up in you mind is always stronger and more magical than whatever you can put on the screen.
Star Wars Dawn Of The Jedi - "Back in time where Jedi's have yet to exist, one strong, powarrful wahman discovers the truth behind Midichlorians..." Well, it'll be something like that, just wait and see... 😒
😎🇬🇧
Comparing Trek to Wars is Apples to Oranges.
Trek was always a thinking man's show.
Whereas Wars was always a spectacle of action and emotional drama.
At best, trek is intriguing. At worst, trek is merely average especially in its average handling of time travel in the way so many others have stupidly done and continue to do so, its skewered and biased idea towards a false ideal in its liberal and western-dominated mindset (one that's hypocritical might I add, with how it views black and numerous brown cultures as being backwards who need to be brought into the "civilized" world of the white man and the west. That's ol trek, not nu trek, by the way), its lack of proper continuity, and its overall average world building. So, at best, trek is merely fascinating. At worst, its mid/mediocre/decent/okay/average.
Trek is science fiction.
Star Wars is "space fantasy," that's what Lucas actually called it.
"wizards in space"
Thanks to “Jedi Prime” I got a Kyber Crystal & a bag of Tauntaun Chow with free Two-Day Delivery.
😂
Star Trek DTD jumped the shark with "Tilly the special needs cadet"....LMFAO!! Just what a starship on the front line needs. My parrot ODO doesn't feel represented but feels he would make a great Starfleet officer.
I saw one you tube clip of STD with an overweight woman in uniform bossing people around, and there was a lot of yelling and running involved. Which she was ill suited for and at which she did not seem to be succeeding. The clip was comicly jarring because it seemed unlikely and incongruous. A military organization would not be as effective with an officer in the field who could not rapidly pursue nor flee when the situation required it. Starfleet was for the exceptional, not those who needed to be adapted to.
The history of the jedi is already pretty well fleshed out.
That being said, disney threw out all existing non-movie lore, so i guess its not anymore?
The problem with prequels is that 75% of the time the mess up something from the original. Like Rachel Ziegler bowing like Katniss, diminishing the power of that moment in the original movie. Stuff like that is what make prequels tricky especially in the hands of most of today's writers.
George’s prequels created a whole new generation of fans and created a new set of favourite characters. I don’t find them any less “childish” than Return of the Jedi. Maybe that’s why they were successful and have a lasting appeal, because they actually appealed to children.
Not exactly, TPM appealed to Children most, AOTC had high highs and low lows and was mid/mediocre/decent/okay/average or not as bad as everyone says it is and over-hated, and ROTS is the best Star Wars film in both trilogies.
@FMK03 TPM only had podracing and Duel of the Fates. Otherwise, it's actually unwatchable from the sheer boredom it can induce.
@@tylere.8436 It actually had more than that: revolutionary cgi and special effects for its time; plenty of practical effects; introduced more planets; actually did world-building with the geopolitics and showed how the republic functioned; showed the issues within the republic; showed how Palpatine exploited the issues found within the republic; established and introduced a ton of stuff into Star Wars; gave cool and world-aware designs; had a lived-in tone; and the acting, dialogue, and especially the writing, weren't anywhere near as bad as OT stan scum like to pretend they were. All of which were done rather exceptionally, and, done well too.
That's subjective.
The problem is that they have no future, they would destroy it along with Luke's character and fans will always ask where any new skywalker came from and if it has any connection to Rey the fans will want nothing to do with it.
Looks like you can't move on either, last sequel movie came out in 2019...move on.
Sometimes a story has a beginning, middle and an END
I picked up a book that was 3,700 years old. And it contained the following line
There's nothing new.
And here we are today complaining that the latest writing team for Star Wars has nothing new to offer.
Funny enough, Star Wars was a better series when it openly riffed/ripped and remixed ancient mythos and religion.
I love Ecclesiastes, but Solomon never saw an airplane or a computer.
@@anonygentNo he didn't, but that ancient wisdom still speaks to our world today.
Dave talking about lack of diversity.
Me looking at my star wars eu book shelf full of everything he listed.
Thank You!
Setting a movie 25000 years before the Star Wars prequels is like having a movie about the battle of Anzio in World War Two and than making it's sequel about the Emperor Nero because he was at Anzio when Rome burned.
"I don't mind prequels if done well. I like the idea of learning "how it all started". Thing is most people who do them aren't any damned good at it. Especially today. They can't even do new stuff that worth the film they print it on."~ Me.
I think that for an established IP it's extremely difficult to go in either past or future. I can see why they would veer in either direction, though. Distancing yourself through the use of time from established lore gives you relative creative freedom; or so it may seem. Just look at ST:D. Created as a prequel to ST:TOS and ended up in the distant future, while screwing up anything in between.
What would revitalise sci-fi would be moving away from space opera and create hard sci-fi stories like the Expanse and the Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson, which are imaginative in that they stick to real science and avoid fantasy tropes, so no time travel, no death and rebirth, no faster than light travel, no single hero to save the universe, only stories that derive from what is really possible.
That pre-history of Jedi and Sith is already there in the online MMORPG - Star Wars - The Old Republic.
There's a lot of very nice lore and established ancient history there.
Ive just been reading the books at this point. The novelization of Episode III is amazing.
Dave, the TOS movies in the 80s very much _where_ financially successful because unlike the movies since, were made on modest budgets. This is also one of Star Wars' failings. I agree it should move on from the Skywalkers, it should have from the moment Disney acquired it, but that isn't why the movies are failing. They're failing due to a toxic combination of bad writing and inflated budgets.
In 2024 Hollywood, we all know what type of person the first jedi will be. It will be a 160cm badass from the start, "the key to everything" with a few other intersectional layers.
i once went to a film in 1977 called "star wars" . to this child and many others, it was a breath of fresh air. since then, it has been a case of chasing the dragon and the obligatory diminishing returns... . i would like to thank the disney corporation for encouraging me to grow up and move on. my question to you can only be... . still_hollywooding?
One big difference is trek is science fiction while Star Wars is space fantasy