Loved this two part discussion of Tony. I first heard Sorcerer when I was 11 in 1977. I grew up in a very typical English aspiring middle glass family with 2 older sisters listening to pop and mum and dad listening to Perry Como. One year before listening to Sorcerer I was playing Boney M. My family, my friends, none of them could tolerate the music on Sorcerer. I had no technical understanding of music and the sounds of the time were Punk, glam rock, a bloated Zeppelin. I immediately recognised that quintet as something of an entirely different dimension. I intuitively recognised it as important, serious and challenging music. Tony, for me, was simply astounding and I had no idea of what was happening on a technical level. I just listened open mouthed, open ears and with an open mind and i couldn't stop listening to. I bought all the albums by that quintet and each one was a masterpiece to my ears. I tried to get my school friends to listen and they would endure a few minutes before 'take that shit off'. My mum and dad could see my passion for the music and they accommodated it as far as Miles at the Fillmore before telling me to turn it down. I never lost my love for that group or for each of those amazing musicians and of course Miles was the boss but Tony was kicking his ass. I never had a chance to learn an instrument although I don't believe I have a natural talent for playing. But I certainly was able to grasp that something truly magnificent was happening in the 2nd quintet. When Wynton went through his phase of playing a version of that music it bored the hell out of me. I could hear more going on in say Circle from Miles Smiles than in the entirety of Black Codes which to me was closer to the VSOP band but lacking the genius of that groups glorious drummer, Tony.
Cat ! Thanks for sharing your „ life „ experiance here! You are definetly not an unmusical person! Love your thoughts! For us this kind of music is still the most advanced even these days.
Yeah the 70s , Neil Sedaka and Des O’Connor had records out . Jack Jones was big and Tony Orlando too . Then for my 16th birthday in 1983 I got Bitches Brew . What an excellent record but at this point I love it all . Even groups like Sailor were cool .
Great conversation but I never see this Drummer’s lips move! 😂 I first saw Tony at the Vanguard in the mid 1970’s. This was around the time of the Album The Old Bums Rush. It was the first time I saw him use his big yellow Gretsch kit with the 24” bass drum. Anthony Jackson was playing bass. I sat in the upper level of the Vanguard to Tony’s left of his hi hat to watch and listen to him. I use to sit there whenever a drummer I liked was there and I was able to sit there. Seeing Tony was a great inspiration for my drumming but also so many other drummers too. Thanks.
Great stuff gentlemen, bty Tony did sub for Elvin and it was one of the reasons that he started playing even louder. Coltrane wore out Tony. Elvin had real muscles and could hang in term of volume and length of time. Tony realized at that time that he was going to need more muscles, too. Thank you for this video
This is Richie Beirach and just to give you some real info about the situation with Trane ,Elvin and Rasheed! i knew Sheed and played with him in my band called gargoyles with dave Liebman randy Brecker and Eddie Gomez ,,we did a nice week at lush life club in NYC in the 80 s he told me what happened ,he said that Trane wanted to move forward with his music and wanted to actually keep both Elvin and Rashhed in the band with Alice etc ,,but Elvin didnt want to play with another drummer, Rasheed also was young and cocky and he told me his attitude wasnt correct cause he was taunting Elvin ,but Elvin didnt quit ,,it was a mutual thing between Trane and Elvin ,and of course Trane being the leader and being Trane made the decision to let Elvin go. Did you know Elvin or Rasheed personally ?
@@csjazzalloy I did know Rashied but not as well as you did. I drummed for years and recorded with the legendary Arthur Rhames who was featured prominently with Rashied’s “Funky Freeboppers... He was also hired by Elvin to play a week at the Vangard (via Wallace Roney ). Your summation is correct .. It’s basically what I said . ayler-records.bandcamp.com/album/two-in-nyc czcams.com/video/odfbqKxGwtQ/video.html
The way they talk about bebop like it’s nothing. They talk about swing but what about Bebop rhythm? Hitting it with the comping and drums . A video on my channel called Jamming the Blues at Smalls . Hear the pianist on that hitting the rhythm. I used to hate the Miles band with Tony but now admit I love it . But it’s all evolution. Tony wasn’t a great funk drummer though but he was the greatest. It’s all good
Billy Hart is NOT on Bitches Brew or In A Silent Way!! He is on ONLY one session included on the Complete On The Corner Sessions. That session was recorded on 6/12/72. I am amazed at how many incorrect things were said on this video which are factually inaccurate.
Hey Christian. I really enjoyed this discussion. There is a Tony Williams clinic on YT (audio only ) where he talks about the left foot. It is my understanding that it started as a rocking motion, then through repetition became smaller in movement, maybe flat footed and then the four beats. An evolution of sorts. I'm not sure that this was a conscious innovation but more a natural one.. But not sure. You've probably experienced this when playing 2 and 4, particularly up tempo, a relaxed left leg starts to fill in the space. Once you're aware of it you can kind of just let it happen.. But hey, not sure... Cheers from Australia.
Hey Senic! I know of this clinic and heared it of course. And I am still don’t know, where it came truly came from, but it’s any not that important. He was a real genius anyway, so ideas are just happen. For me personal he just transformed the „ Puls playing „ from the ride to the left foot as the be boppers transformed it from the bass drum to the ride cymbal. The Puls itself its allready a fantastic innovation . Btw Jabali told me not long time that one of his big influences were billy Higgins !!! Who played btw very very almost „ eight - feel „ but still swinging ! Thanks for your Interisting Comment ! Best to Australia , bro !
@@csjazzalloy Yeah that's so true man. I hadn't given that much consideration before. Also, I had never made the Billy Higgins connection before either. That's cool! Cheers, brother!
@@JHCdrums me not either , but when Jabali told it to me it made klick to me . In the jazz school with billy Brooks, we had listen to billy Higgins a lot ... so , we had our chance their ... hahaha ! This was 82 .... I loved VSOP but we had to listen to be bop , which I love to - o love the whole tradition of American black jazz music. We made a podcast about „ European jazz „ .. which we got some shit from the colleges but we can hold it 😀 cheers Bro ! Richie played in Australia with Stan , Chet and I think with lieb too ! Cheers Bro !
@@csjazzalloy Haha cool! European jazz definitely played it's part. Possibly even the Dutch and Swiss etc were a bit more original and innovative in the 60's. I'll have a look for the podcast. Cheers man!
Great conversation, I learned something, thank you.
love it!!
great conversation, thanks. Good to know Tony is still with us.
Always he is !!!
Loved this two part discussion of Tony. I first heard Sorcerer when I was 11 in 1977. I grew up in a very typical English aspiring middle glass family with 2 older sisters listening to pop and mum and dad listening to Perry Como.
One year before listening to Sorcerer I was playing Boney M.
My family, my friends, none of them could tolerate the music on Sorcerer. I had no technical understanding of music and the sounds of the time were Punk, glam rock, a bloated Zeppelin.
I immediately recognised that quintet as something of an entirely different dimension. I intuitively recognised it as important, serious and challenging music. Tony, for me, was simply astounding and I had no idea of what was happening on a technical level. I just listened open mouthed, open ears and with an open mind and i couldn't stop listening to. I bought all the albums by that quintet and each one was a masterpiece to my ears. I tried to get my school friends to listen and they would
endure a few minutes before 'take that shit off'.
My mum and dad could see my passion for the music and they accommodated it as far as Miles at the Fillmore before telling me to turn it down.
I never lost my love for that group or for each of those amazing musicians and of course Miles was the boss but Tony was kicking his ass.
I never had a chance to learn an instrument although I don't believe I have a natural talent for playing.
But I certainly was able to grasp that something truly magnificent was happening in the 2nd quintet.
When Wynton went through his phase of playing a version of that music it bored the hell out of me. I could hear more going on in say Circle from Miles Smiles than in the entirety of Black Codes which to me was closer to the VSOP band but lacking the genius of that groups glorious drummer, Tony.
Cat ! Thanks for sharing your „ life „ experiance here! You are definetly not an unmusical person! Love your thoughts! For us this kind of music is still the most advanced even these days.
Yeah the 70s , Neil Sedaka and Des O’Connor had records out . Jack Jones was big and Tony Orlando too . Then for my 16th birthday in 1983 I got Bitches Brew . What an excellent record but at this point I love it all . Even groups like Sailor were cool .
Great conversation but I never see this Drummer’s lips move! 😂 I first saw Tony at the Vanguard in the mid 1970’s. This was around the time of the Album The Old Bums Rush. It was the first time I saw him use his big yellow Gretsch kit with the 24” bass drum. Anthony Jackson was playing bass. I sat in the upper level of the Vanguard to Tony’s left of his hi hat to watch and listen to him. I use to sit there whenever a drummer I liked was there and I was able to sit there. Seeing Tony was a great inspiration for my drumming but also so many other drummers too. Thanks.
Tony Williams DID play with Trane. He played with the quartet on at least one occasion with the classic quartet.
Great stuff gentlemen, bty Tony did sub for Elvin and it was one of the reasons that he started playing even louder. Coltrane wore out Tony. Elvin had real muscles and could hang in term of volume and length of time. Tony realized at that time that he was going to need more muscles, too. Thank you for this video
Tony never played with Coltrane...
Coltrane did not “get rid of Elvin”. Elvin quit in protest when Trane hired Rashied Ali. Otherwise excellent video.
This is Richie Beirach and just to give you some real info about the situation with Trane ,Elvin and Rasheed!
i knew Sheed and played with him in my band called gargoyles with dave Liebman randy Brecker and Eddie Gomez ,,we did a nice week at lush life club in NYC in the 80 s he told me what happened ,he said that Trane wanted to move forward with his music and wanted to actually keep both Elvin and Rashhed in the band with Alice etc ,,but Elvin didnt want to play with another drummer, Rasheed also was young and cocky and he told me his attitude wasnt correct cause he was taunting Elvin ,but Elvin didnt quit ,,it was a mutual thing between Trane and Elvin ,and of course Trane being the leader and being Trane made the decision to let Elvin go.
Did you know Elvin or Rasheed personally ?
@@csjazzalloy I did know Rashied but not as well as you did. I drummed for years and recorded with the legendary Arthur Rhames who was featured prominently with Rashied’s “Funky Freeboppers... He was also hired by Elvin to play a week at the Vangard (via Wallace Roney ). Your summation is correct .. It’s basically what I said .
ayler-records.bandcamp.com/album/two-in-nyc
czcams.com/video/odfbqKxGwtQ/video.html
The way they talk about bebop like it’s nothing. They talk about swing but what about Bebop rhythm? Hitting it with the comping and drums . A video on my channel called Jamming the Blues at Smalls . Hear the pianist on that hitting the rhythm. I used to hate the Miles band with Tony but now admit I love it . But it’s all evolution. Tony wasn’t a great funk drummer though but he was the greatest. It’s all good
Billy Hart is NOT on Bitches Brew or In A Silent Way!! He is on ONLY one session included on the Complete On The Corner Sessions. That session was recorded on 6/12/72. I am amazed at how many incorrect things were said on this video which are factually inaccurate.
Hey Christian. I really enjoyed this discussion. There is a Tony Williams clinic on YT (audio only ) where he talks about the left foot. It is my understanding that it started as a rocking motion, then through repetition became smaller in movement, maybe flat footed and then the four beats. An evolution of sorts. I'm not sure that this was a conscious innovation but more a natural one.. But not sure. You've probably experienced this when playing 2 and 4, particularly up tempo, a relaxed left leg starts to fill in the space. Once you're aware of it you can kind of just let it happen.. But hey, not sure... Cheers from Australia.
Hey Senic! I know of this clinic and heared it of course. And I am still don’t know, where it came truly came from, but it’s any not that important. He was a real genius anyway, so ideas are just happen. For me personal he just transformed the „ Puls playing „ from the ride to the left foot as the be boppers transformed it from the bass drum to the ride cymbal. The Puls itself its allready a fantastic innovation .
Btw Jabali told me not long time that one of his big influences were billy Higgins !!! Who played btw very very almost „ eight - feel „ but still swinging !
Thanks for your Interisting Comment ! Best to Australia , bro !
@@csjazzalloy Yeah that's so true man. I hadn't given that much consideration before. Also, I had never made the Billy Higgins connection before either. That's cool! Cheers, brother!
@@JHCdrums me not either , but when Jabali told it to me it made klick to me . In the jazz school with billy Brooks, we had listen to billy Higgins a lot ... so , we had our chance their ... hahaha ! This was 82 .... I loved VSOP but we had to listen to be bop , which I love to - o love the whole tradition of American black jazz music. We made a podcast about „ European jazz „ .. which we got some shit from the colleges but we can hold it 😀 cheers Bro ! Richie played in Australia with Stan , Chet and I think with lieb too !
Cheers Bro !
@@csjazzalloy Haha cool! European jazz definitely played it's part. Possibly even the Dutch and Swiss etc were a bit more original and innovative in the 60's. I'll have a look for the podcast. Cheers man!
Tony also came largely from Max Roach.
Jack DeJohnette played with Trane TWICE, not just once.