Fascinating discussion! I was in my dorm room at Berklee and heard my neighbor blasting something amazing on his stereo. I knocked on the door, and asked, "Who in the world is that"? He showed me the Tony Williams Lifetime album. It was a revelation for me. And, there was a LOT of great music then. What I love to hear in music is what I call asymmetrical symmetry, or organized chaos. There's a form which remains throughout the piece, but at certain points the form becomes invisible, only to reappear as though it had never left. It has the effect of leaving the listener feeling like they've fallen out of a plane.....but they're actually still in the seat. Great players of many genre's know how to do that.
Love it guys,look forward to part 2 Tony approached drums with such energy and dynamics, embracing freedom with ears and communicating at such intense level...constantly pushing the group with new colors and subtle phrasing
@@csjazzalloy TONY WILLIAMS GROUP (TRIO) Live at Goldene Krone in Darmstadt, Germany, 1980-05-28 SOUND: Very Good for that Vintage Recording! ia800701.us.archive.org/35/items/TonyWilliamsGroup1980-05-28GoldeneKroneDarmstadtGermany/TonyWilliamsGroup1980-05-28GoldeneKroneDarmstadtGermany.mp3?cnt=0
Miles said,,”Tony was the creative spark! He integrated everything he heard and committed to his library of sounds and rhythms from which he was constantly integrating them into the new sounds and songs of the day. “ he was constantly composing and extending the ideas he was developing through his interplay with Herbie and Ron.Jack called him “one of the top five creative musicians in the history of jazz.” I do not think that was hyperbole . When you think of Bird, Tatum, Trane, Dizzy, Christian, you can understand where that comment was born. Tony was an historian of this music and intuitively understood the functioning DNA. What he played with Miles was Divine so personal that it can not be Outside of the contexts that were created by that band.
👏🏿💯👏🏿💯👏🏿💯Exactly, many listeners attempt to interpret the music without understanding the culture (African & BlackAmericanDOS) from which it came❗💯 Jazz, Folkloric, Blues, Spirituals, is 'African' based music, when performed on that foundation, it 🎶SWINGS! Tony is from a 'progressive' & 'free' era. Miles, in the early 60s was NOT playing ballroom 'Dance Music'⁉️African🥁 rhythms are "sycopated" and polyrhythmic, when performed by a creative percussive genius .i.e., Tony Williams, along with the compositional inspiration of Miles, .et.al in the band, you get elasticity with the pulse❗This period was intentionally Harmonically, Rhythmically, advanced and Different! "FREE BILL COSBY"
I believe "the gap" that you discuss may be the space between where the rhythm closes and where it begins again in the next cycle. From my experience, most ethnic music from around the world has a closing point in the cycle that you begin to hear if you listen to it enough. Think of a flamenco buleria, a Cuban guajira, a Brasilian samba - the rhythms all close together in one or more particular place in the cycle, and all the instrumentalists phrase around this intuitively. Tony phrased like this over and over again. Drummers from New Orleans tend to do this more, perhaps because they have often been closer to the source, but modern players who are not from NOLA (like Ralph Peterson) phrase in this way all the time, and so do many of the hippest instrumentalists on all instruments (Jelly Roll and James P Johnson taught us everything we need to know about jazz rhythm). If you think of rhythm like a subdivided grid, you will never find this. You must understand rhythm in a harmonic way, and Elvin continues to teach us this every time we listen to his recordings carefully enough. Get off the grid and these things will begin to reveal themselves to you. Stay on the grid and you will be relegated to obtuse rationalizations of what these great artists have given us.
Thanks man, but I think you don’t understand what we are talking about - We don’t talk about a steady rhythm repeated rather fill inns where he ends. Has something to do with interaction, which is the new element to the jazz music. Check out who Richie is. ;) but Thanks for your replay✌️👌🤗
@@csjazzalloy Yes, I agree. It is not about a repeated rhythm. Rather, it is about how he uses fills to end his phrases. Can you hear how Tony often ended them in the same place as Art Blakey and Ralph Peterson (to use two examples)? Also, are you contending that interaction is a new element in jazz?
@@jdclearways8784 , with Tony a whole new area of interaction, I would say, started. With Herbie and WAYNE in miles Band from 65. Asymetrical interaction - yes before the function of a drummer was different. I would say. He influenced even Jack d J. Even if jack is older .. yes Ralph Peterson but more Jack .. unfortunately i don’t see many groups playing this style of interaction because it’s very difficult because everybody needs to know where he is in the form. With an asymetrical over the bar line playing it’s very difficult .. listen to jack s playing behind herbies solo on „ one minute .. „ on his new Standard cd - it’s like a drumsolo .. that’s the development .. Listen to part 2 ...
There's another term for the gap you are referring to regarding Tony; it's called a BREATH in the phrase/time. This happens ALL THE TIME in classical music, and NO it is absolutely NOT incorrect time! It is LIVING and BREATHING Time! Ironically, Tony Williams is one of the most METRONOMICALLY CORRECT "jazz" drummers you would ever find! If you analyzed Tony's time against a metronome or computer you would find that he was far more metronomically accurate than almost any jazz drummer of his time and preceding decades. Tony CHOSE to put that breath in the phrasing, because he was such an incredible MUSICIAN that it made the MUSIC better that was happening COLLECTIVELY, because Tony was a master ORCHESTRATOR who HAPPENED to be a drummer.
No. It’s a whole different way of playing from ALL musicians in the band - it’s not only tony its Herbie and Wayne too and the bass function is different because the drums is totally free. The chords are different etc. but the most important in my eyes us the changement to „Puls“ - based playing .
@@magn8195 , really ? Great ! But if you are into jazz you should definitely look for jack de Johnette - or if you like it more „ funky „ vinnie colaiuta xou might Love very much too!
Fascinating discussion! I was in my dorm room at Berklee and heard my neighbor blasting something amazing on his stereo. I knocked on the door, and asked, "Who in the world is that"? He showed me the Tony Williams Lifetime album. It was a revelation for me. And, there was a LOT of great music then. What I love to hear in music is what I call asymmetrical symmetry, or organized chaos. There's a form which remains throughout the piece, but at certain points the form becomes invisible, only to reappear as though it had never left. It has the effect of leaving the listener feeling like they've fallen out of a plane.....but they're actually still in the seat. Great players of many genre's know how to do that.
Love it guys,look forward to part 2
Tony approached drums with such energy and dynamics, embracing freedom with ears and communicating at such intense level...constantly pushing the group with new colors and subtle phrasing
Harry! Bro! You keep us sending all the time great stuff! You have a big impact to this podcast Serie! Love Chris
@@csjazzalloy TONY WILLIAMS GROUP (TRIO)
Live at Goldene Krone in Darmstadt, Germany, 1980-05-28
SOUND:
Very Good for that Vintage Recording!
ia800701.us.archive.org/35/items/TonyWilliamsGroup1980-05-28GoldeneKroneDarmstadtGermany/TonyWilliamsGroup1980-05-28GoldeneKroneDarmstadtGermany.mp3?cnt=0
Miles said,,”Tony was the creative spark! He integrated everything he heard and committed to his library of sounds and rhythms from which he was constantly integrating them into the new sounds and songs of the day. “ he was constantly composing and extending the ideas he was developing through his interplay with Herbie and Ron.Jack called him “one of the top five creative musicians in the history of jazz.” I do not think that was hyperbole . When you think of Bird, Tatum, Trane, Dizzy, Christian, you can understand where that comment was born. Tony was an historian of this music and intuitively understood the functioning DNA. What he played with Miles was Divine so personal that it can not be Outside of the contexts that were created by that band.
Tony was doing sounds and fills like tribal drums, I'm sure it was in his DNA. African drums tell the story and mood.
👏🏿💯👏🏿💯👏🏿💯Exactly, many listeners attempt to interpret the music without understanding the culture (African & BlackAmericanDOS) from which it came❗💯 Jazz, Folkloric, Blues, Spirituals, is 'African' based music, when performed on that foundation, it 🎶SWINGS! Tony is from a 'progressive' & 'free' era. Miles, in the early 60s was NOT playing ballroom 'Dance Music'⁉️African🥁 rhythms are "sycopated" and polyrhythmic, when performed by a creative percussive genius .i.e., Tony Williams, along with the compositional inspiration of Miles, .et.al in the band, you get elasticity with the pulse❗This period was intentionally Harmonically, Rhythmically, advanced and Different! "FREE BILL COSBY"
love it!!
Thanks Udo!
I believe "the gap" that you discuss may be the space between where the rhythm closes and where it begins again in the next cycle. From my experience, most ethnic music from around the world has a closing point in the cycle that you begin to hear if you listen to it enough. Think of a flamenco buleria, a Cuban guajira, a Brasilian samba - the rhythms all close together in one or more particular place in the cycle, and all the instrumentalists phrase around this intuitively. Tony phrased like this over and over again. Drummers from New Orleans tend to do this more, perhaps because they have often been closer to the source, but modern players who are not from NOLA (like Ralph Peterson) phrase in this way all the time, and so do many of the hippest instrumentalists on all instruments (Jelly Roll and James P Johnson taught us everything we need to know about jazz rhythm). If you think of rhythm like a subdivided grid, you will never find this. You must understand rhythm in a harmonic way, and Elvin continues to teach us this every time we listen to his recordings carefully enough. Get off the grid and these things will begin to reveal themselves to you. Stay on the grid and you will be relegated to obtuse rationalizations of what these great artists have given us.
Thanks man, but I think you don’t understand what we are talking about - We don’t talk about a steady rhythm repeated rather fill inns where he ends. Has something to do with interaction, which is the new element to the jazz music. Check out who Richie is. ;) but Thanks for your replay✌️👌🤗
@@csjazzalloy Yes, I agree. It is not about a repeated rhythm. Rather, it is about how he uses fills to end his phrases. Can you hear how Tony often ended them in the same place as Art Blakey and Ralph Peterson (to use two examples)? Also, are you contending that interaction is a new element in jazz?
@@jdclearways8784 , with Tony a whole new area of interaction, I would say, started. With Herbie and WAYNE in miles Band from 65. Asymetrical interaction - yes before the function of a drummer was different. I would say. He influenced even Jack d J. Even if jack is older .. yes Ralph Peterson but more Jack ..
unfortunately i don’t see many groups playing this style of interaction because it’s very difficult because everybody needs to know where he is in the form. With an asymetrical over the bar line playing it’s very difficult .. listen to jack s playing behind herbies solo on „ one minute .. „ on his new Standard cd - it’s like a drumsolo .. that’s the development ..
Listen to part 2 ...
Who are you btw.? Interisting questions and mentions btw. ✌️😀
2 5
There's another term for the gap you are referring to regarding Tony; it's called a BREATH in the phrase/time. This happens ALL THE TIME in classical music, and NO it is absolutely NOT incorrect time! It is LIVING and BREATHING Time! Ironically, Tony Williams is one of the most METRONOMICALLY CORRECT "jazz" drummers you would ever find! If you analyzed Tony's time against a metronome or computer you would find that he was far more metronomically accurate than almost any jazz drummer of his time and preceding decades. Tony CHOSE to put that breath in the phrasing, because he was such an incredible MUSICIAN that it made the MUSIC better that was happening COLLECTIVELY, because Tony was a master ORCHESTRATOR who HAPPENED to be a drummer.
Were those Dream Bliss hi hat cymbals at 3:05? Haha sound exactly like mine
Would you say that Tony Williams played a lot of hard bop with Miles?
No. It’s a whole different way of playing from ALL musicians in the band - it’s not only tony its Herbie and Wayne too and the bass function is different because the drums is totally free. The chords are different etc. but the most important in my eyes us the changement to „Puls“ - based playing .
@@csjazzalloy Ok thanks!
@@magn8195 next is coming probably tomorrow - last part about tony for now
@@csjazzalloy Awesome! Tony is one of my favourite drummers along with Billy Cobham.
@@magn8195 , really ? Great ! But if you are into jazz you should definitely look for jack de Johnette - or if you like it more „ funky „ vinnie colaiuta xou might Love very much too!
What do you mean, Tony "wasn't a real revolutionary?" That has to be one of the dumbest things I ever heard!!!