Dialogue Dive: When Game of Throne's Writing Peaked
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- čas přidán 23. 05. 2020
- Come check out the writing behind one of Game of Thrones' best scenes!
Full Tywin and Olenna Scene: • Video
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• Jon Snow Saying You Ar... (Zetetic) - Krátké a kreslené filmy
Hey everyone! Hope you enjoy the video. While I am bummed I might be gone a while, I am super stoked for the new channel. You all have been amazing and really keep me going :)
Dammit😔
We will hold for a month! Thank you and safe moving :D
Your announcement and final bit btw had a beginning middle and end. Essentially creating a story within a story. A skeleton for which we can follow and ingest the story easily. (This is my writing in a nutshell I always slam the gas pedal and never take a break)
I'm sure glad I have a skeleton, or else I would find difficulty in keeping myself tight around a central pathway. Nothing like a skeleton for central pathway tightening around...
#METAPHORS
Yeah, I absolutely want more dialogue dive videos. All that you can make bro.
Season 8 three act structure.
Act 1: Jon "She's mah Queen"
Act 2: Jon "I don't want it."
Act 3: Jon "She......is mah Queen"
Bonus act: You know nothing.
Words you can hear
@@The_Chef2511 Bonus 2 : Wee need allies!
she ... (dramatic pause) ... is mah queeen
You spelt don’t wrong it’s actually “duuhnt”
Olenna: Hes the pride of High Gardern, most desirable bachelor
Tywin: She's rich, most beautiful woman in the 7 kingdoms
Olenna: Yeah but she olllllddd
Tywin Yeah but he's gay!
Olenna: Incest though...
That would be the convo if it happened at season 8.
@@The_Guy_You_Love_To_Hate thank the old and the new gods those things doesn't happend 😂
@@The_Guy_You_Love_To_Hate Nah. If it happened in season 8, there'd be no convo at all.
Tywin: Nevertheless, I incest
@@The_Guy_You_Love_To_Hate it woudl be shown off screen if it were season 8
I thought it peaked at "You want da good girl, but you need da bad poosi"
they absolutely destroyed the amazing Sand Snakes in the show :(
No it peaked at “I’m not going to rep her I’m going to fek her”
@@redsol3629 no it peaked at "shes mah qhueen"
gazboost surely it was at: “i don wan it”
@@SherbertLomon nah
Varys: *cough* *cough* *cough*
Was the peak of writing in the show
When Olenna Tyrell died with the line “tell Cersei. I want her to know it was me” someone said “when the rose dies, the thorns remain”
I know this comment was made a year ago but that should be their house words tbh
@@b.c.a5032 LOL!! For real!!
@@b.c.a5032 better than "growing strong" for sure
@b.c.a5032 not so. It would indicate they expect defeat and battle. House Tyrell commands "soft" power social power.
It's easier to manipulate when people don't consider you a threat instead of expecting a fight.
@@kittikatsno, it implies that as the body ages and the "rose" dies", the mind remains sharp as a thorn.
Tywin to Cersei if he was alive in S8:
„You will do as I command and you will marry the Night King!“
Great Other: Dude, I'm already married!
Night King : ...*smiles* ...
@@Negajoe he does have a cute lil smile
Oddly, I imagine Tywin would actually understand the weight of the threat of the undead. He'd also not actively try to piss off the one being capable of crushing the entire continent.
Tywin would talk Viseryon into betraying the NK.
Tywin: *Breathes*
Savage Books: "This in and of itself is a multilayered action, packed with a plethora of different meanings, it also follows a three act structure."
Oh my😂, his videos finally made me to write a book, in spite of almost all his advice, even if no one read it or no publisher accepts it
Holy crap, that's hilarious!
Act 1: the pulling in of air through the nostrils, this introduces us to the idea that Tywin is inhaling air and we don't need any additional information about the show to understand what is taking place in this scene.
Act 2: The breath is held for a moment and we are left to wonder how the scene will progress as the air rests for a moment in Tywin's lungs building tension before the climax.
Act 3: Tywin releases his breath sharply from his nose signifying bemusement and bringing the scene to an abrupt but meaningful conclusion.
@@flamevortex Bravo!
@@flamevortex LOL totally nailed it.
I started watching the video and this gus pauses it every 5 or 10 seconds, I just couldn't handle it. I lost mah shit and quitted.
It is so exasperating
These two were the biggest badasses in the show and neither one of them ever had a sword battle. ( Atleast with actual swords)
Tywin did fought in blackwater
But I got your point
@@peterstudios7147 Wasn't it implied that he fought against Roose Bolton's men in season 1 episode 9? We didn't see what happened because of budget and the POV character Tyrion getting KO'd at the start. It's also possible that he sat back and watched as a commander in full armour.
@@peterstudios7147 Yes, Tywin suits up for battle, but it's mostly for show. I doubt he is a "lead from the front" kind of guy.
@@ashrog82 yeah, in the books he was always in his tent overlooking a battle.. he did not care about glory.
Well, he led from the front as a younger man. When he got older he preferred to direct.Tywin was always more of a strategist than a soldier.
Every scene with Tywin was pure "Gold" he was a good character in the books but Charles Dance's performance in the show elevated him to one of my favourites.
Indeed, Charles Dance brought the power.
True, Charles Dance was amazing.
Easily My fav character lord Tywin aka the real ruler of Westeros
@@carlval11 at least until he got murdered on the toilet by his own son
Gold. Lannister. I see what you did there.
Arya: "Sansa is the smartest person I know." You've met Tywin.
Did she say it in one of the later seasons? I think she did and, well, Tywin was dead at that point and she did say "is", not "was".
It still doesn't make much sense as Sansa was never charazterised to be very smart tho. Her character arc was mostly "I wanna be a princess :D" -> "Kiillllll meeeeee D:"
@@SuperJaguary I think she said it in season 8, so it was a bit after Tywin's death.
@@SuperJaguary They tried to make Sansa out to be the new Littlefinger towards the end of the series, most likely due to girl power.
another idiotic piece of scriptwriting
@@anarki777 Sansa is heading that way in the books - part of the point of her character arc is that she learns from the "best" (Littlefinger, the Lannisters, etc.) but doesn't let it corrupt her. She becomes shrewd and savvy without losing her compassion or her loyalty to her family. Tywin, for all his shrewdness, is still the head of an absolute disaster of a household who's done some horrible, abusive things to his family and is reviled by them, something that does get him killed in the end.
Unfortunatley, D&D have no idea how to write shrewd female characters without resorting to them stating obvious "fortkeeping 101" things like "we need more grain because people need to eat".
I find it fascinating how Olena was the only character in this show to ever come close to winning a conflict through dialogue with Tywin such a great breakdown made me appreciate the scene so much more
It fits the worldbuilding as well
At this point in the story the only ones who can rival the lannisters are the tyrells. And so here we have the head of house lannister going up as equal against the (acting, mace is technically the head by title) head of house tyrell.
@@jerec1267 Mace was a buffoon
too bad she should have one, Tywin last argument of ordering Loras in the King Guard make no sense, that's not how it work
Olivia Williams yeah I feel you I think her holding the incest over his head would be much more effective given how much Tywin cares about his family’s reputation as well as holding power given the fact that with the Tyrells power they could cause a great shift in power given the fact that another powerful house would alert the masses that Joffrey and Tommen have no claim to the iron throne could’ve been an interesting plot point as I doubt the Tyrells would just willingly give over the iron throne to Stannis as he already has his wife and Melisandre so Margery wouldn’t have a hope to become queen 🤔
Overall though, she started with far far less than Tywin and brought her house up to be equals of the Lions.
She honestly was better than Tywin.
"A sword swallower through and through" My favorite line of dialogue in the entire show
I'm a sword swallower and I confirm this is a great way to talk about it
@@RcsN505I like to think of myself as a Valerian Steel swallower, through and through
One thing I did like about this scene was that Tywin went to Olenna to discuss the marriage instead of Mace. Showing that Tywin knows who is truly the head of House Tyrell even though "legally" it is Mace. This strengths his stance that he never trusts, nor respects Cersei not because she is a women, but because Cersei is not as smart and clever as she thinks she is. It is also nice that Olenna concedes defeat with showing respect to Tywin, someone who is her equal in the realm of politics. Unlike Cersei who throws a tantrum when she loses an argument. Instead it was Tywin who almost threw a tantrum when Olenna brought up the rumors of incest between Cersei and Jamie.
Like father, like daughter
Apples do not fall far from the tree
@@Kyle-sr6jm which explains how Joffrey became a sadistic jerk - learnt that shit in Cersei's womb
Don't know if anyone could say the word "old" so brilliantly and cruelly.
I broke the replay button, haha! I love this actress.
The added "I'm quite an expert on the matter" quip at the end made me lol too. She really know how to diss people.
It's funny how you can pinpoint the exact moment Tywin took off his kiddie gloves and threatened to destroy an entire house to get what he wants. Now that is power.
Esto es ridículo, Tywin tiene todo el poder para instigarlo a entrar a la orden. Una invitación real es una cosa que no se podía rechazar tan fácilmente pues se podría considerar un insulto y una prueba de deslealtad, que junto con la sodomía podrían llegar a acabar con su vida. La palabra del rey era ley. Tal vez podrías corregir tú torpeza si tú arrogancia no fuera tan alta.
@pyropulse Uhhh no. Being named to the kingsguard is considered an honor and refusing said honor would affect the tyrells negatively. Remember, Aerys pulled the exact same move on tywin with jaime and more or less got away with it. Yeah technically you don't have to join if asked, but refusing the request of the king is just asking for trouble.
@@williamkrause5831 little different though, since jamie always wanted to join the kingsguard anyway, despite tywin being against it
@@williamkrause5831 It's not an honour to have your (in the show's family tree) SOLE MALE HEIR appointed to the Kingsguard, and nobody in this society where inheritance means absolutely everything - where literal wars are started due to succession crises - would mistake it for an honour for a single moment. It would be immediately seen by everyone for what it is - the king stripping the man in question of all lands and titles so that his rightful inheritance (an entire region of the country) goes to his nephew-in-law... the king. It's blatant corruption that violates the principle from which every single lord you rule over derives his power. In peacetime, it could easily cause a war; in the middle of an ongoing war, why on earth would the Tyrells not immediately defect to literally *any* other claimant? You're proposing stealing all their land, they have nothing to lose.
Seriously, it's like... a *really* bad idea.
A threat is never really a sign of power, for the same reason "a man who has to tell people he's the king is no true king".
People just doing what you say because they're scared of you? Power. Wiping out a rival for defying you, with no fear of consequences? Power.
But that in-between bit, where the implicit threat hasn't worked and they're defying your authority, yet you still haven't actually punished them, and are trying to persuade them that you will if they don't stop? Actually a moment of weakness, however ~bAdAsS~ you phrase the threat.
Just started reading the books they make me nostalgic for when the show followed the books and had great scenes like this.
Me too
I actually started the books a week ago, and I cannot stop
One of the remarkable things is that scenes like this aren't in the books. The first three books created a world that allowed writers and actors to riff from. But as books 4 and 5 got looser, the showrunners lost their structure.
Just a question
Were the dialogues copied word by word from the books or just in the context
@@zakariazerkouk9985 This scene was not, but this scene establishes the same sort of conflict between houses that the book takes a different route, since it's stuck to strict PoVs of what Sansa and Tyrion hears etc, although in the books these scenes are established the same as they are in the show, with Tywin demanding Cersei and Tyrion to marry. (in the books Cersei is given a false choice between multiple people but Loras isn't one of them because in the books he has an older brother and Loras is already in the kingsguard)
With scenes like this you get to see characters like Ollena and Tywin interact like you wouldn't in the books, and the show does a good job with their characters in scenes like this. But plenty of other scenes are pretty much straight from the books.
Also pay attention to the physical acts: for example at the start Tywin hands the glasses to show he is in a power position; and indeed he proposed a marriage.
Later when Olenna retaliates to the accusation of Loras' homosexuality with Cersei's incest, Tywin loses his calm. Just remember how easily he deflected the questions about possible gay affairs, now he is so upset that not only does he want to exit the conversation, but the physical space as well. It's a very meaningful cue, and it also shows that now Olenna has the upper hand
Which she then emphasises by silently covering her glass when Tywin tries to pour her more wine. It may have been a polite offer and a polite refusal, but she is still giving him a "no" that he seldom gets.
There's also the way Tywin uses the excuse of getting more wine (while both glasses are still mostly full) to try his usual technique of standing over somebody in their personal space to assert dominance, only to have to sit down when it's clear it hasn't made the slightest difference.
I agree his movement throughout this scene is great; from the way the sip of wine he takes after her shocking question could be read as a slightly overdone performance of calm (suggesting he is at least playing for time if not outright getting defensive), to the way he punctuates his threat by somewhat hastily picking up his quill and then poising it as if it's a gun to someone's head. This gesture is totally unnecessary on his part (it makes no difference to the threat whether he writes it this second or not, and given his reputation there is no need for him to prove that he's serious), and results in him maintaining an un-relaxed and un-domineering position for several moments. That, and the noticeably faster speed at which he delivers his ultimatum compared to his measured pauses at the start of the conversation, shows how rattled and borderline-desperate he actually was.
Compare this to how Olenna maintains her bodily position throughout, gestures or takes sips only when she wants to, and never gets rushed into talking too fast or lets herself fall into step while Tywin dictates the pace. Even her surrender is handled at her own speed, and features a slow move into a decisive and presumptuous action while Tywin maintains his silly pose. If you were to go entirely by the visuals of the ending (Tywin leaning forward over his desk in a near-bowing position while she stands over him, takes one of his possessions straight out of hand, and vandalises it) you would think she mopped the floor with him. It's the one time we see Tywin having to rely on the power of his position (like Joffrey and Cersei do) to deal with a superior personality, even Tyrion can only equal him rather than surpass him.
@@mzytryck I didn't get a notification and I'm reading it only now
Excellent analysis!
@@spinakker14 Thank you, I appreciate you saying so. I enjoyed yours as well.
Speaking of physical cues, notice how Olenna tries covering her mouth when Tywin brings the final blow of naming Loras to the kingsguard. She knows she is checkmated, but she can't show that on her face, so she tries to hide away those small emotions.
Olenna Tyrell was my favorite character as soon as she entered the fold, having a whitty and sassy matriarch amongst powerful men was truly wondrous. Probably the only person in power to match my other favorite, Tywin. So this being one of my favorite scenes was bound to happen. So thanks for breaking down the dialogue amongst the wisest two characters in Westeros.
*witty
Olenna is fucking badass, I agree.
Me too, I absolutely loved this scene for its drama, subtle conflict and unexpected humour ('sword swallower'!) ... however, I remember starting to slightly tire of Olenna the more she was used. The time she returned to King's Landing almost felt like they kept bringing her back because of fan reaction and feedback to D&D, rather than what was right for the character.
in the books doran martell also has a great character in the same way of tywin and ollena
@@abdelghanimeralet9423 he's pretty great in the show imo. We just don't get a lot of time with him. Like 17 minutes.
Agreed. She was a truly strong female character.
Fun fact: Tywin did not come up with the idea of naming someone to the Kings guard as a move against their House. The mad King first did it to Tywin by naming Jamie to the kings guard when Tywin was the hand of the king. He did it so Tywin didn’t have an heir besides Tyrion, knowing that Tywin hates Tyrion, and to make sure Tywin didn’t move against him.
Worst decision of the Mad Kings life. Jamie killed him and Twyin did move against him.
Thing is in the books, it wouldn’t have worked I imagine (I’ve not reached that far yet in the book series admittedly) because House Tyrell still has two other sons. Because they only have Loras here, Olenna was in quite a vulnerable position.
@@hi-ls6ltin the books they were marrying Cersei to Loras's older brother, who isn't in the show. Loras was already in the Kings Guard and couldn't marry.
@@hi-ls6ltSansa was to be married to the younger son, who was paralyzed/handicapped.
@@Flufferz626 I believe that Loras was the younger son. The heir to Highgarden was Willas who was the crippled one, and the middle son was Garth Tyrell who we see dancing with Sansa in the books.
RIP Diana Rigg. She did a great job playing Lady Olenna. The Queen of Thorns will always be one of my favorite characters.
Diana Rigg owns the screen in every scene. She's a phenomenal actress playing one of GoT's few consistently very well written characters. I swear she's channeling Eleanor of Aquitaine (who most assuredly was the inspiration for the character).
RIP Diana Rigg =(
Yes! I agree she always reminded me of rebellion Elenor of Aquitaine 🙌🏻
True But eleanor is way more badass, she is quite good in politics and goes to crusade with her soldiers
and who is the eleanor of accutane you speak of
In the movie “Thr Lion in Winter”, Eleanor of Aquitaine was brilliantly played by Katherine Hepburn. Henry II was magnificently played by Peter O’Toole. A wonderful movie to be sure.
A scene I, personally, have always found very fascinating is when Cersei and Robert talk in season 1. It is filled with a wide range of emotions, exposition, and backstory. And even more amazing is that, like the previous two scenes you have discussed are both exclusive to the show.
best scene, D&D ever wrote (the scene is not in the books)
@@AlexDelux2500 Yup D&D are good adaption writers, arguably even screen writers, but left to write a great plot & story with individual character arcs for every one, every year after they ran out of books for guidelines with so much to consider. Not even GRRM can do that and it's his world.
The problem is they lost passion. They *did* have books to serve as guidelines but decided to ignore them because they stopped caring (season 5 onwards)
@@AlexDelux2500 uhhhhhh i hope you do know grrm wrote parts of the script back in the early days of the tv show.... so i doubt d&d wrote that (considering their track record)
It's not every day that I find someone with a picture of Yen as their avatar, so...hi! :D
Yes, that scene was so well written AND acted out by the actors.
Cersei: Was it ever possible for us? Was there ever a time, a moment?
Robert: ........No.
Had there been someone else by Cersei's side who actually loved her, perhaps she wouldn't be as bitter as she is (or was).
I hate how this show that I used to love so much needed this video to remind me of existing
It will always be a source of fascination that all the momentum of that series just VANISHED.
It's heart breaking.
Same
@@pyrorecipelist2 nah, it had plenty of momentum, unfortunately Benioff and Weiss decided that steering towards a cliff was a good idea...
@Kyel ! no, but I can see why you'd think that, idiots often assume everyone is at most as intelligent as them...
Savage books: i'll be pausing the moment i find something awesome/interesting
Olenna: *sneezes*
*Savage Books pauses the video*
SB: see this alone is better than season 8.
It was dumb. But it shouldn't have been *this* dumb.
And SB would be right.
It's a rare enough thing, a video lives up to its hype.
Nice one
I really appreciate breakdowns like this. Obviously this is a scene with a huge emotional punch that everyone remembers, but seeing *why* it works the way it does through structure (something I always have trouble with as a writer), an effective hook that sets the scene, how the information is laid out in act 1, and the ebb and flow of the conversation and the climax.
Writing a good scene is quite difficult, and I think it's underappreciated by a lot of people.
Am I going crazy or does it feel like your last sentence is unfinished? I feel like there should be something about the effects of seeing why this scene works the way it does.
Koen Beijersbergen no it’s definitely unfinished. they didn’t build upon what seeing the way the scene structure works means to them
Every tywin scene is a great scene
You ain’t never lied
Every Tywin scene is a lesson.
The shitter scene was the best
Tywin's line beginning at 12:20, where he says that if the rumours were true then Joffrey would not be king and house Tyrell would have thrown a "prize flower" (Marjorie) in the dirt, negates the implied threat that Olenna made at 18:56, bringing up the incest rumours. Essentially he's telling her that she can't use that information against him because it would take down her house also.
"When Game of Throne's Writing Peaked". More like: when Game of Thrones' writers only had to adapt the already available source material. D&D are great at adapting, no question there, and it's still a hell of an acomplishment to deliver a scene like this with the same power as in the books. But the real genius here lies with GRRM, not the show's writers. He created these characters in all their dimensions and the dialogues & interactions with each other. No coincidence that quality started to drop once the show's writers had to create their own dialogues and character arcs.
Credit where credit is due, this never happens in the books, in fact Olenna is pretty irrelevant in them
Nah. A lot of the great dialog of the first four seasons were not from the books. It's been some time since I read the books, so I don't really remember which, but the Arya-Tywin stuff is not in the books, and I don't think Varys-Littlefinger is either, since non of them are POV-characters. I would argue it actually hard to find any bad dialog in the first four seasons.
While I agree with you, I think the actors deserve some credit, too. But unlike Georges marvelous writing skills, no actor can carry bad writing
@@Ben-ew9eu For sure! I didn't mention the actors b/c the video was talking about the writing. But they deserve credit for bringing these characters to life.
Kyel ! Sandsnakes and dorne is complete trash writing and unforgivable. Shit character motives and shit character dialogues, how did they ever get a green light for that
Just remember that eloquency and good argumentation skills do not, and i can't emphasize enough, DO NOT make you impervious to angry midgets or crossbow bolts.
Remembering that might save your life.
Yes.
Every time I see a video essay on the world of GOT it breaks my heart to know how cheaply it ended
Read the books
@@beingrkm The books stop at like season 5 of GoT
Olenna: My grandson is the *pride* of Highgarden.
Since we already knew about Loras and Renly relationship up to this point I always wondered if this was an accidental or deliberate this choice of words. If so that was a very subtle and funny joke. Unlike "I have balls, you don't." Damm, I miss these days.
I kind of have always felt that Tywin's smile as he pours the wine as Olenna says "pride of High Garden" was almost out of character, in a cute anachronistic way. Like he's laughing that she says pride and we know of Loras, but Dance plays it off as Tywin putting on a grin to start off their negotiations with a polite and friendly tone.
Well, he was a member of the RAINBOW guard
@@nunyabiznes33 lmao
I'm gay AF but don't leap to queen conclusions every time someone uses the word pride. Sometimes it is just that, being proud of your grandson and not a back handed remark about his orientation. It ain't that deep, bro.
Olenna and Tywin are absolute Gold together. They are perfect. Two of the best characters in the series.
"A sword swalover trough and trough" 😂😂😂
What an elegant metaphor 😂👌
‘One would expect you’d *bow* before a Lady.’
One would expect you to *kneel* before the gods-
‘Don’t spar with me little man!’
I love the litle smirk on Tywin at the beginning. It´s like he´s saying: "yeah, let´s do this. Bring it on".
I love your dissections of scenes like these. Tywin and Olenna were such rich characters and a conversation between them had to be formidable, your analysis did it justice.
Between Tywin’s intelligence and his grasp of hard executions towards strategy, plus overall loyalty to his Name and legacy he’s by far a screen hog. Anytime he’s on the screen you immediately know the scene will be impactful.
“Papa Lannister”
Hehehe idk why i find that so funny
Low-Key, Tywin was an absolute badass and I have generally found that all scenes with him in them are of higher quality in terms of acting and writing
I think the overall outcome is super open-ended and there are many interpretations, but I see it as a war with two battles that ended first in a stalemate, then in a victory for Olenna. She won the first battle; Tywin was powerless to change the fact that Cersei was past her prime and known for her incest with Jaime. Tywin won the second battle, as there was nothing Olenna could do to prevent Loras from becoming a Kingsguard. Score: 1-1. The war came to a ceasefire when Olenna broke the pen and left. From a writer's perspective, I see this as a statement about her ability to think outside the box and prevail over Tywin in a way he wouldn't expect. Olenna makes good on this promise when she kills Joffrey. In that moment, she successfully out-manoeuvred Tywin and won the war.
I’m a simple man. I see Savage Books making Game of Thrones content, I watch it.
We are all simple men here John!
@@savagebooks7482
Missed a comma, Mr. Editor.
@@savagebooks7482 Have you ever seen Rick Worley's video "How to Watch Star Wars"? I thought I might interest you, given your interest in storytelling and the fact that you brought Star Wars up a few times.
All the Tyrells were brilliant in their own way (even the dumbass son of Olenna), it's a shame what the show did to them.
Such an interesting house at playing politics, they actually were toe to toe with the Lannisters at some point, unlike the Starks & the Baratheons who were made fools of themselves and had to resort to full on total war, and the other Houses that were made pretty much irrelevant (Arryn, Martell, etc).
They actually did a somewhat decent job of adapting to Willas Tyrell not being in the picture. But once Tywin and Selmy were gone the show was on it's own and it began sinking.
Martell was brilliant in the books and Doran was a mastermind
Still kinda sad Loras got reduced to a whiny biatch. And they shifted the blame on the collapse of the marriage scheme on him for telling a prostitute. In the books it was Sansa's stupid mouth that caused her her own misery again (the first one got her father killed).
Tully’s being ignored as usual I see… as they should.
I mean...Mace was a fantastic singer lol, I'll give him that the loveable oaf that he is
You can't ignore the fact that these are two of the greatest actors of the past 100 years. This same dialog could easily be fumbled by lesser actors
Shakespearean actors and actresses with good scripts.
This scene showcased two powerful actors portraying two powerful characters. What a treat!
Although I like this scene, it’s a pretty poor scene to add in relation to the books. As D and D kind of forgot there are large families besides the Frey’s. As book house Lannister and Tyrell are large. Which always confused why show Olena wants to marry off Loras when she has Garlan and Willas as heirs. Not to mention all the other cousins and uncles who have male heirs of their own
Yeah, Loras WANTED to be in the Kingsguard and not married off. He had older brothers.
Except Garland and Willas don't exist in the show, the only Tyrell children are Loras and Margaery. So Olenna wanting to marry Loras off in the show DOES make perfect sense as she doesn't have any other grandsons to put all of her house's future on.
You also have to take into consideration Greater houses and Lesser houses. The eldest son is typically supposed to inherit everything in Westerosi culture (excluding Dorne, which is just the eldest child), so any house leader would want the leadership to stay in his direct line. If Tywin didn't have Jaime, do you think he'd be just as happy passing the Lannister line over to Kevan's sons? Absolutely not. He was livid when Jaime joined the Kingsguard because he saw his only chance of having a proper heir from HIS line continue on (since Tyrion obviously doesn't count), so the point of having cousins and whatnot is irrelevant. I think in both the books and the show Olenna only had one son, Mace, which would make show-Olenna's desire to marry Loras off even more intense.
@@tyf.5111 The part that doesn't make sense is why she is marrying him off to Lannisters when they already got the alliance via Margaery, and why she isn't marrying him to a younger woman, esp one who isn't already known to have gotten her children from someone other than her husband?
Marrying into the Martells or the Freys would have made more sense.
As someone else pointed out, in the show Loras is the only Tyrell son and heir. The part where the scene is poor is the pretense that Tywin could actually force another Great House to jeopardize the continuity of their line (by threatening the Kingsguard method or marriage to "no one other then Jaime shall have kids by me" Cersei). Baratheons and Starks rebelled against and overthrew the Targaryens over a similar situation.
Tywin showed his hand, and Olena threw the knockout punch that put that family's dynamic in chaos.
As someone who is trying to become a writer savege books is my favorite channel on CZcams! His game of thrones content his bojack horseman content. It's all truly wonderful and I feel it has made a better writer. So thanks!
Judging from your comment I'd say you need to watch a lot more Savage Books.
So, I can almost never watch a video longer than 5 minutes, but your videos are so incredible that I actually make a point of watching them start to finish. Something that's damn near impossible when you have ADHD.
Wow, thanks man! I am very well acquainted with ADHD, so this really means a lot
Recommended GoT to a friend right after season 1. He hated it. Said it needed more fights, magic and dragons. Said it was boring to just watch two people sit in a room and talk.
I still hold that the dialogue scenes (when well written) were the best part of the show. Later seasons had too many big battles and expensive CGI scenes that didn't serve any purpose. Batttle of Winterfell, for example, was just boring because soooo much time was spent on nothing but fighting.
he would love season 7 and 8 then
GRRM himself said that this was a low magic fantasy.
I'm sorry, but your friend seems a bit dumb.
@@Anna133199 The friend is probably a kid.
@@eodico Why would anyone recommend this show to a kid?
"My grandson is the pride of High Garden!" Sub-text!
Anachronistic, verbally, but loaded with subtext.
Do a dialogue dive of Little Finger and Varys
Tywin was probably my favorite character and I was actually hoping for him to make it out of the privy. As Tywin died, so did most of Tyrion and Varys character arcs...
Varys stopped being relevant in the show after he fled King's Landing with Tyrion. They cut out his entire endgame from the books. He intends to put someone else on the Iron Throne and it's not Daenerys but that character with his entire plot was needlessly cut from the show.
DefactoOverlord f in the chat for young griff
Yeah. But unfortunately that was his fate in the books as well. Varys had a hand in that, since they wanted someone incompetent on the helm, they wanted Cersei in charge. After her walk of shame and house arrest, Kevan has started cleaning her shit up so they killed him as well. They borrowed the scene for the show but substituted Pycelle for Kevan and forgot-his-name for Varys.
Also in this episode is great how they set up Olenna to be a conversational beast.
First she has a conversation with Sansa and dominates.
Then moves to Varys (a vastly more cunning person) and dominates
When she gets to Tywin and he wins, it serves to show the force of nature that Tywin is.
“As an authority on myself, I must disagree.” Brilliant. Olenna was a phenomenal character.
I BEG of you, cover the deleted scene where Tywin confronts Pycel on the shores of the beach
Excellent deep dive. One little detail that surprised me was that you didn't mention Tywin standing - taking the physical position of strength - to try to assiist him in regaining control of the conversation... as well as Olena's very clear decision to remain seated.... also a strength move.... Anyways, very cool, I'll look for the other deep dive videos and +sub. Thx
This is an amazing breakdown of this scene but I hope people don't think when they're constructing a scene that they need to think about this stuff before writing the dialogue, it could come across extremely forced to try and adhere to this. The best thing about this scene is how deeply the writers understood these characters. How they see themselves, how others see them, and how they see each other. Writing any dialogue knowing these things will result in scenes like this I believe.
To be fair to Olenna Tywin had to go to Deathcon 1 to win the argument which it isn't a small feat
and his argument make no sense. He can,t just order Loras in the King Guard
@@oliviawilliams6204 de facto yes, after all he already bossed around the King (who had the power to nominate members of the King's Guard)
@@oliviawilliams6204 he can, he was the hand of the king, only the king himself could overrule him
@@SamU-np6bv No, because the King can name a King Guard, but can't force someone to become one. Jaime had to agree to become one for example. That would be stupid anyway, do you want as a bodyguard someone who resent you for his position?
I don't know only why to care, Loras was kingsguard in the show before, and second time should hurt anybody
Although Olena would have won this easily if it remained a level battlefield. Twin just turned the tables by using his status and power as the hand to insert a threat that completely thwarts any room for negotiation.
Here Tywin was actually losing the negotiation so his only option was to change the strategy to exerting his status to gain control of the situation. (Reminds me of Cersei's burn to little-finger's statement -"Information is Power" by completely overpowering him with her guards she said -"Power is Power"[Now I see where she got that from]😅)
So in this scenario, if we're just comparing a battle of Witts, Olena is definitely a step ahead of Tywin 🤷.
Yo he’s kinda cute though, don’t tell my girlfriend
Joffrey or Tywin?
Fr he cute no homo
Australian ping I have 600+ ping now that’s Australian ping
Your girlfriend will forgive you
Olena Tyrell was one of the few people Tywin truly actually respected , I imagine they actually end up good friends in the afterlife .
I think its also worth mentioning that the characters stand up when they need to regain the power of the conversation.
There was also the visual subtext when Tywin was pulling the wine.
It was a good match-up and a really fun argument aesthetically, but it also showed a lack of understanding as to how the world worked. Tywin's big move of ordering Loras into the Kingsguard is something that just could not be done. Not only does it violate the main principle of the Kingsguard, namely that it's a voluntary bodyguard institution, and conscripting into it might carry risks for the King (heck, out of those that took the vows willingly there's a number of examples already. They're not Praetorian Guard bad, but hardly perfect), but it also would give the Tyrells casus belli to detach themselves from the Lannister alliance and form the nucleus of a new rebellion, something Tywin doesn't want at all, especially as they have a larger and fresher army, along with better logistical support. An attempt to cut the dynastic line of a Great House is grounds for war, and one that would draw support even from Tywin's own allies.
Olenna easily could have pushed there, as Tywin's proposal was out of order and a disproportionate counter-threat (either accept the marriage, or we go to war and nuke everything). The Cersei/Loras match-up was already a poor one due to the age difference, and Tywin had already countered the Tyrells in beating them to Sansa. One thing that the books did great was the relationship between Tywin and the Tyrells, where he had to diplomatically curb their appetites by using the power of the Crown without pushing them into making it powerless, as they held the balance, which makes Cersei's later chapters hilarious when you see her 'attempting' to manage their relationship. If the scene had been about the Sansa/Loras proposal, and Tywin revealing that he'd been a step ahead of her, you could have gotten the same back and forth still.
Still, it was a neat argument. Using the incest angle to counter Loras' orientation was amusing. Though Tywin was perfectly correct in pointing out that any attempt to de-legitimize Joffrey would only hurt both sides. Olenna could have easily done the same in pointing out that an attempt to force Loras into the Kingsguard would do the same, as while Tywin's right in that it's the only lever that could push the Tyrells, it's also one that would push them right out of the alliance. They'd take Loras and deny the order, leading to either a massive loss of face, or civil war. Either way it would be the ruin of the Lannisters.
Kingsguard is not a really bad solution, especially if both houses agree. You think too much about the tradition, which was broken many times. Loras is gay. I think nobody would marry him, if he doesn‘t want to produce a heir. It‘s been years and he‘s still unmarried.
@@deadmanplays2684 at the end of the day though, if House Tyrell wants to survive (at least it’s main line) then Loras would need to have children.
Its more of an acting thing than dialogue, but I really like the way they each react to each others statements, such as Tywins facial twitch at 1:52 and Olennas reaction at 13:42. It almost reminds me of a chess game with each player analyzing the others move and going "so thats what youre going for.."
Nice catch! Now to rewatch GOT seasons 1-6 again...
They had a verbal battle, he threatened her, she conceded.
All the while she's brazenly plotting to murder his grandson. I miss these kinds of characters.
Daaaaamn that was a sick ending, it's always cool when a character can make a loss not feel like one
CZcams: 18 min video
Me: I can't watch it
CZcams: it's from dialogue dive
Me: smash that play button
This video taught me more about creative writing than my university course.
Great breakdown of the inner dynamics. As a fan of the show, and a writer, this is golden. Looking forward to savoring more of your insights.
They nailed characters such as Olenna and Margaery, but Loras Tyrell was so ruined in the series
He turned into a whole different character right after he basically forced Joffrey to marry his sister. Such a shame.
@@giverdend1416 that marriage was arranged by Little-finger and the Tyrells Army literally just saved all their lives.
What was he like in the books? Im curious
@@swamidan277 I haven't finished all the books, just the first three so far but Loras was the third child of Mace and wasn't ever supposed to inherit anything. He served in Renly's Rainbow Guard and, although it's never explicitly stated, it's obvious he had a relationship with Renly. After Renly died and the Tyrells joined forces with the Lannisters Loras actually did become a Kingsguard, although it's obvious he still loves Renly and even defends Renly to Jaime's face. An excellent quote of his is "When the sun sets, a candle can never replace it" which in context meant that he could never love again after Renly, which is why becoming a Kingsguard was perfect for him.
In the show he's a slut that banged male hookers after getting to King's Landing and even flirts with Oberyn, something he would have never done in the books.
@@swamidan277 jaime said that loras reminds him of himself when he was younger. Loras has actually something to do in the books and he's not reduced to his sexuality.
Your channel has helped me immensely when it comes to writing my first script. Especially during this time, hopefully you won’t be gone for long and good luck! Can’t wait to see the new channel
As someone working hard to become an editor for fiction books, this video was really eye-opening. Reminded me what to look for, or rather to notice when I stop analysing and just get swept up in the dialogue.
I’m 100% up for that second channel, your videos are the best in my feed by far and have helped my writing so so much, pumped to see any and all future content, keep it sleazy
This is why his name is Ty'Win'. These dialogue dives are great and I'm learning a lot. Can't wait to see what you have next.
Long before these scene came about, I was looking forward to it. Both the actors and their characters are powerhouses and it is a joy to see them spar like this. Forget the nudity and bloodshed, this is what gets my heart racing.
You've been gone too long, I missed this kind of content
Watching Geoff get bitch slapped verbally is always worth watching in break down form haha.
Now watching Sharp Tongue vs Sharper Tongue get broken down is definitely also worth a watch
Olenna *did* have one out there.
She could have made a reference to how Tywin suffered much the same at the hands of Aerys, who was then killed by Jaimie himself.
There were some well-written original dialogues in the show, almost all of them centered around Charles Dance (cleaning the stag, catching the trout, that Joffrey scene, the Conan-esque sword-reforging, most of his convos with Arya). There was also the 5 vs 1 convo between Robert and Cersei, Robb and Grey Wind visiting Jaime scene, and kinda sorta the Varys vs Littlefinger scenes. They definitely phoned it in S5 onward, but there were cracks as early as S2 at least.
One thorough, satisfying and edifying dissection of a brilliant scene of dialogue, which was well worth my time. My hat is off to you, Sir.
What tf? Was just watching King Bieber and Daddy Lannister video of yours and now this gift?
Me likey.
I don't think Diana Rigg gets enough credit for how good she was in GoT. Witty af and sharp as a tack!
Damn bro, you hella cute.
But also this was a really good, thorough breakdown of such a short scene. You've sparked a really interesting train of thought on conversational structure that I'm pretty hyped to fall down.
Anyway, thanks!
no lie, he fine
I honestly LOVED the way this video was constructed. It is incredibly helpful to better understand what is being discussed.
These are excellent videos. I've been binge watching like mad. Tywin is my favorite character in GoT and Olena shortly behind him and this is one of my favorite interactions in the shows entire run. Excellent video and keep it up!
One of the bests! I also love the scene of Cersei and Robert discussing their marriage in season 1.
Most beautiful woman in all the seven kingdoms, uhhhh nope...
The most beautiful woman was clearly the one sitting right in front of Tywin
In the books she is indeed stated as "the most beautiful woman in westeros"
Margery: exsist
I just found your channel and find the dialog analysis so extremely interesting. Layer onto that the amazing acting, direction, editing, and even the subtle lighting changes, and it makes these seasons truly amazing.
For instance, you have Tywin's smug smirk when Olenna talks about Loris' positives, letting the audience in on the fact that he is well aware of Loris' open "secret." It tells you so much about Tywin's character that he sees, and has always seen, his daughter more as a bargaining chip, than carrying any paternal affection.
Then, there is very early foreshadowing; the close up and lighting of Tywin pouring two glasses of wine for himself and Olenna as Jaime will do years later.
The show truly was amazing when we had GRRM's books as a guide. Then......it all went to s*#@!!!!
LOVE these scene breakdowns! All the best with your move!
Last time I was this early, Bobby B was still on the throne.
Turn down for what?
good times
STOP THIS MADNESS IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING
verbally, olena won by a long shot ... but tywin used his higher authorty (hand of the king) at the end. If they would have been on eye level (in authorty, equal lords). Olena would have won
Olena did win. She went on to poison that c--t Jeoffrey thus putting a pause on the marriage between cersei and loras.. and setting Marguary to seduce Tommen.
Great job on analyzing an amazing scene. I was thinking, halfway through, about how it would be nice to see the entire scene before the analysis, but I really couldn't think of a spot where to put it in your tight and poignant structure, without disrupting the flow or altering the feeling of the video. Really well done.
Thinking about the structure of this scene will really help me as a writer. Thanks for this.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. As an amateur writer, I really appreciate all your advice!
Only nanna tyrell can ask Tywin if he is battyman
So exciting to see your lovely face, so excited for the new channel. Been an fan for awhile. This video was absolutely fantastic, you are so talented and your content is amazing. It has helped me in my writing. Much love and support! - MP 🖤🖤🖤
I really enjoyed this video. It really helped. It's a strong testament to what made you successful in the first place. And it's great to see your face! Can't wait to see the new channel.