EDITING CREDITS BELOW: One clarification, around the 30 minute mark I say Alex's memory loss wasn't possible, I wasn't talking about any memory loss in general, as that is possible, I was talking about the specific memory loss the plot writers gave him. That one's on me for not specifying. In a twist of cruel irony, this video had 13 draft renders. I hope you enjoy, but safe to say I probably won't be making a video like this for a while. Was fun to test out at least, and hopefully a nice collab. Also big thanks to I Hate Everything, easily one of my favourite pieces he's done. *Link to his channel below.* I Hate Everything: czcams.com/users/IHEOfficial Check out the editors: - Lynn: twitter.com/alphamxtion - hihi: czcams.com/users/Hihi2234 - Claire: czcams.com/channels/d76lmm-QWR-e-hWIic58KQ.html - Stafoh: czcams.com/channels/pCeUlldSsXKRwJvFLYw64w.html - Elijah: czcams.com/channels/sfafH-yfWHRaMInfyjxfrg.html - Abi: twitter.com/Abi_Chixx - Daniel Torres: czcams.com/users/literallygarbage - Mullenax: czcams.com/users/MrFluffySavage - Logan: twitter.com/LoganERivers Post-Editing: - Logan: twitter.com/LoganERivers - Lanooski: czcams.com/channels/xfVbuWXJAPQ26tL6_BeLng.html Artist Credits (if your art appears here please contact me): instagram.com/hessdabeast/ twitter.com/otaku_zera/status/1143940236017225728 twitter.com/suzukiPCArt twitter.com/AwkwardDoodle instagram.com/fireinsect/ - Special thanks to my Patrons: a vdl, Low60, Mac Maunder, Jade Rose, ColossalKiwi, Ash Black, Darren (Barcrest Plays), Light, Marc, RistrettoEva, WilliamThatch, Adam VIllareal, Ashley Butts, Adam Goetz, Bryan Langley, cloudfruit, Connor, Divinireigns, Miru Kado, Neo, Brandon, Emily Yoder, Megan McCallion, Mikey K, Miru Kado, Neo, Nipple Man, Ristretto Eva, Michael, Shane Reese, Mama Fujo, Yuliya Terekh, Spoonie The Rogue, Natasha Gray, Bruhreallysnapped, Darren Barcrest Plays, Ellie, Nassim J, Spoonie the Rogue, Gravidea, Lena Zhivun, Valerie B, Shelby Schulze, Kie, Austin Clothier, Bob Jazzypoo, Emily Jane Willems, Philip Wesolowski, Neuwwington, MuglyfuglyThug, Nico Mendoza, Sydney Plasky, puking dog, Isabelle Pond, Jacob Matthews, saberfang, Casual User, Ella Elric, Jennifer Stachuska, Maria Diamantoukos, Seth, YarnWitch, York, Paulina Joensen, Julia Fesst, Ammene, Leslie Miller, Ambros, Emma Hinniger, Hillary Dryer, Kathryn M Sorroche, Mirthe, triangulous, darkestweb, Letichia, Sarcastalshisss, SnowFreak, 10$+ Patrons: Ashley Butts, Elizabeth Looby, orkfighta, The Derbinator, Eduardo Pedrero, unknown_hat, dr_snuff, Jenn Sulana, Ella Daniels, Chris F, Adam Granger, Poofy, Tepi, ジュリアン, Hunter, Amanda, Mattias Kronsten Nygren, Bénédict Knecht, ayro grego, Jessica Silansky, Kasi, Kezzstar24, naoh123, Fayrith, David Alejandro Moreno, Heisenberg White, Kaiser, MuglyfuglyThug, lordpikachu96, Emma Hinnige Special Thanks to My 50 Dollar Patreons: somehulabaloo, Caroline, Hypercube, Amanda Very special thanks to my 100 dollar Patreons: Brandon, B_More_Cool_J, Christopher Karas Twitter: twitter.com/TheRightOpinion Facebook: facebook.com/TheRightOpinionOfficial/ Discord: discord.gg/SsgNxWU Instagram: instagram.com/the.right.opinion/ References: docs.google.com/document/d/1RAjeef6mYrj39pMRUbQdlO6ZBbV3SfJrB6Yecv8GobU/edit?usp=sharing
My best friend summarised it perfectly: "It's a show that asks you to be mature enough to get the message, but not so mature that you can tell how badly it's doing it."
Clay's tape was honestly the one that bothered me the most. His fault was that they were about to have sex, Hannah told him to stop and leave and he DID. That's EXACTLY what he should have done and to portray him being respectful of her boundaries and accepting that he changed her mind as something NEGATIVE made my blood boil. Teaching young audiences that when a partner tells you to stop something or change their minds at any point you SHOULDN'T listen to them because "that's not what she really wanted, he aBaNdOnEd her" is SO dangerous
Fantastic point! He made the right decision, by refusing to have sex with her because she did not consent, yet it was made to appear as if he didn't care about her emotionally because he didn't force himself on her and honored her boundaries! This entire show is emotionally manipulative and glorifies abusive and irresponsible behavior. Its definitely absolutely terrifying how many people suffering will watch this show and somehow believe suicide will immortalize them and will make them some sort of hero or martyr. It somehow romanticizes the idea of this perfect victim; who somehow did a noble deed by taking their own life, and undoubtedly left behind such a beautiful legacy by calling others out for their perceived abandonment of her. I know it's very difficult and so absolutely devistating when someone takes their life, let alone a child, but it was made to seem as if this was her great life purpose that was a constructed plot, rather than impulsive decision filled with agony and turmoil. I hate it. Furthermore, though the scars of loss will always remain; they attempted to portray this loss as the end all. Sadly, people do move on except those who were most affected. Which is why these things still continue to happen..
@@teetee1640 it's a point that's made clearer in the book, along with the point that clay's one of the few people she knows cares about her and she feels bad knowing she's going to hurt him but it's not enough to stop her which is part of the tragedy
They deadass at the end of the show said Clay just had depression and anxiety. The boy literally had visual and auditory hallucinations, had a number of aggressive and scary outbursts and all that is just anxiety apparently
Pinkisten i like the show. i see why people don’t like it and i have no say so in their opinion but i still watch it because i kind of relate? idk how to explain it lol
@@edgytypebeat781 I like riverdale but def NOT bc of the writing lmao. I guess it's just entertaining. The 1st season had a pretty good story tho, obv it was plagued with cringy lines but entertaining nonetheless.
@@edgytypebeat781 I also watched until the 3rd season, but I remember I had a hard time watching season 2 bc it was so weird and unfocused. The serpents honestly don't add that much plot, I prefer the plot from season 1.
Revenge Sniper That’s how i feel about it too :( The fact that they say it’s important to “spark conversation” feels like it’s glossing over how unrealistic/ ignorant their portrayal of the aftermath, and even the lead-up to someone’s suicide is... It just feels misguided and counterproductive
I've attempted suicide at 21 (im 23) and I was suicidal several periods of time as a teen. If I had watched this show when i was a young teen, I'm scared I would have felt inspired by this sort of "ideal world of payback to anyone who has ever hurt me in any way pays BIG TIME". I felt it would've pushed me more towards suicide, because apparently people only pay for what they did when I'm gone.... ?? Idk it rubs me the wrong way too.
I agree it shows teens that suicide is the right way to blackmail people into getting what u want and revenge will be exacted; never mind the fact that u wouldn’t get to see it cuz ur dead.
And that show involves talking anthropomorphic animals living in Hollywood, yet it’s far more realistic than this shitshow ever will be. Really says something
@@colorcola1464 i feel like a new viewer would need context from the previous episodes to get the meaning behind these episodes though like, yeah, Times Arrow is a heartbreaking episode but it's meaning will get dulled if the viewer doesn't even know who Beatrice is
I haven’t been a teenager for decades, but I can palpably remember the feeling of being the macabre angsty girl I was. The problem with the suicide narrative is that it’s an attractive fantasy. “After I die people will finally appreciate me! They will love me. After I die everyone will realize what they did wrong to me....everyone will be sorry.” That is total BS. It’s a melodramatic goth fantasy....as is the actual scene where she does it. She looks beautiful and powerful in those tragic last moments. It’s a dangerous lie. I couldn’t watch past season 1.
@@zetsu6888 those 2 are different in the sense that this person could be 30 or older or whatever, but being born at a young age is something everyone has done, while not everyone is older than 18 by decades
Exactly. When I was in high school a middle school boy who was bullied commuted and it was truly tragic. The kids who bullied pretended to be sad for a few days and then everyone forgot about it. I can’t even remember his name as it was about 6 years ago.
Teens seem to think they're main characters of some movie lol grandiose delusion or whatever they call it. It takes growing up to realise that, unlike whats stated in the show, it is untrue that "in high school, everyone watches your every move", in fact nobody gives a shit, everybody is so concerned about themselves and how they look that nobody has time for watching others unless they do some really outrageously stupid shit. Same goes for suicide, most people in said high school will be like "yo wtf" for few days and will forget about it in few days while the parents of the deceased will suffer until their own lives end. Im 28 and if i sat down and thought about it, i would probably be able to list 10+ people i knew who killed themselves, some of them close friends at some point, most of them i knew but not that close, but life goes on and in reality i dont think about none of them unless a topic of suicide is being discussed, not because im some sociopath but because i have my own life full of problems to worry about. I wonder if a teenager wishing to off him or herself thinking it will teach their bullies a lesson would reconsider their plans if they knew nobody but their family will give a single shit about their suicide after like a week. I would think so but im no expert.
The fact that Clay’s obvious severe mental illness is ignored and brushed off by literally everyone around him is so insulting, especially from a show that prides itself on its “accurate” representation of mental illness and mental health
Hannah walking down the halls sayin that “no one cared enough” has the same energy as the scene where Goob in “Meet the Robinsons” walked down the hall saying “they all hated me” when everyone asked him to hang out.
Bryce should've got his redemption by going to prison and pay for his actions that way, I don't care what anyone says, no rapist can ever walk and get redemption, that's just hypocritical as fuck.
I understand why they chose to go the route they did, though. His very punishment (or lack thereof) was very realistic to how the law views and punishes offenders.
The worst apart about this entire show is that they changed Hannah's suicide scene. There wasn't one in the book. It was a simple message that her parents hard found her in her bed after she overdosed on some pills. It wasn't over the top. It wasn't showcase-y. It wasn't spreading a message. It was a realistic, understanding mention in a book that showed the pain of a character that wasn't questioned as much as it was in the show. Hell, it wasn't even fought against as much as it was in the show. Hannah's suicide in the book is meaningful and heart-stopping. Hannah's suicide in the show is showboating and uncomfortable. Its the last attempt of the show to push Hannah's victimhood, something that wasn't necessary if we were meant to believe her from the beginning.
Yeah I know I'm late but did you know that Hannah's suicide was very unrealistic. She cut her arms using a tool that didn't cut very deep. She didn't slit her wrist either which would've took hours before she bled out even if she was sitting in the tub. Her parents would've have found her and she would've have been saved. But you know shock value makes money.
@@the_almighty_zoink8683 yea the suicide info is public to tell and warn about failed suicides, it's easy to find and those are the "basics" of self ending yourself so that parents can take precautions, and basic care if they find their child bleeding on the bathroom.
I read the book after the first season came out, and while I didn't like either, at least the book tried to be somewhat, well, realistic. It felt real, and the suicide felt like something Hannah would probably do. It was much sadder to me. I'm pretty sure experts warned the showrunner(s) about the scene in the show being something that could trigger people, but I guess they didn't listen.
The suicide scene is powerful, yes, but the suicide prevention agencies specifically say NOT TO SHOW GRAPHIC AND EXPLICIT SUICIDE SCENES because it can push suicidal people over the edge. THAT'S why people hate it. The show said they talked to professionals for advice so we can't criticize them, but they IGNORED everything they were told.
Sorry if I come across as ignorant but I want to ask why that happens? Never been suicidal so obviously I can't know any better but my first assumption would be that a scene like that might do the opposite, since it shows the reality and how morbid and disturbing that action really is, and how you would feel if you saw a friend or family member like that. What happens instead?
@@WolfJulia2001 Firstly, it's extremely triggering. The scene is graphic and explicit, and would easily trigger someone. But the main issue is that it makes it seem easy. Yes the blood is graphic, but the scene makes it seem like the pain is temporary and it's a quick and easy way to go. There are people who have admitted that for them it basically acted as a how-to guide for suicide, and basically gave them an idea on how to do it. And that's on top of the show just generally glorifying the action by making it seem like the ultimate fuck you, not addressing mental health or ways to get help, and just generally misunderstand suicidality in general
Um actually when I herd about the scene I Tried in the same way Hanna did it did not go as planned first I was not deep and second it took far longer then it should have
which just makes it seem like no matter how much anyone cared, it wasn't enough for Hannah. And at that point im like screw you. Its not everyone's responsibility to baby you or be your mother or to "care" you off the edge of suicide for that matter. If nothing anyone does is good enough for her, she shouldve gotten different friends or asked her parents to go to a different school. otherwise it makes her look ungrateful and demanding.
@@demhreyani3185 that's not the issue, 1. Yes, people who are suicidal shouldnt watch it. But some people aren't aware in that headspace. So the was the show romances it as well as extremely graphic scenes can tip someone off. 2. Trauma repression, having graphic S/A scenes can cause memories to resurface, when extreme trauma happens the brain can force you too forget the memories, have graphic porn and s/a scenes can trigger someone, and litteraly having people react the wrong way romstizing suicide to the victims can lead to major problems. As a s/a survior I can guarantee this is true. as I began having flashbacks AFTER watching the show 3. Finally, that wasnt the point of the show, it wasnt meant to be a drama show it was ment to start conversations and help those in problamatic situation and enlighten people on the situations people have with such thoughts and trauma. This show failed becaus it was turned into a drama and put artist and realism about the message, about positivity
It’s not a show but the film a Silent Voice while a Japanese animated film does a far better job covering mental health and bullying in a realistic way.
People act like high school is this constant battlefield where it's every man for himself and the weak do not survive. It is simply NOT. High school is 4 years of academic stress, clubs, sports, popularity contests, dances, friends, failures, successes, self-reflection, and preparation for college. You're too focused getting your own mess of a self through the years that you don't have time to ruin someone else's life. I'm not saying shit teens don't exist, they do, but bullying of this degree is so rare and hyped up in Hollywood that it's downright hilarious. High school sucked, but it isn't the freaking social Hunger Games.
say it louder for the people in the back! precisely, these things do happen and are serious, but the way hollywood portrays them is really exaggerated.
One of the things I've appreciated from anime is that it glorifies preparation for high learning, prepation for the future, and that EDUCATION IS IMPORTANT. Whether the characters are going through a coming of age story, improving a skill, having relationships, fighting aliens, becoming a ninja, or becoming the greatest hero in the world, they always highlight the struggle of doing all of these WHILE maintaining good grades. Western entertainment has done it's best in showing that eduction and school sucks, and to just get through it like it's a punishment.
Finally someone else has said what I've been saying for years, it's super rare for bullying to happen anymore, there was like 0 bullying in my highschool because everyone had agreed that it was a shitty thing to do and would call out anyone who was being a bit of a dick. This is from someone who graduated 2 years ago, I was in highschool when this show came out and that was one of the main reasons I couldn't take this show seriously, everyone in the entire school would treat Bryce and the rest of the horrible people as outcasts
What annoys me the most about this show is how Hannah's parents expected the school to know about Hannah and step in. Meanwhile her own parents never noticed she was withdrawn and depressed.
@@nansiipii9018 okay… that’s not the end-all, be-all. Do something different like take full parental responsibility over your children’s livelihoods and health instead of outsourcing them to strangers, or idk, strengthening your own internal guidance system as to not let the words of another impact you. As long as we have breath in our bodies, we have options.
@@watsyourdestiny2086thank you Oprah. Teenagers aren't known to be the most rational so telling them to just deal differently is what the counselor essentially said in season 1. Hannah was disappointed left and right by people in her life and as a final turnabout she was talked to matter of factly.
The boldest and most to the point critique I've heard of the show was this: Often times, especially in teen years, someone who has suicidal thoughts entertains a sort of "revenge" fantasy. I'm gonna show all those people who hurt me and never appreciated me. I'm gonna make them sorry. They're gonna feel so awful. And the show pretty much plays right into that fantasy.
Oof yeah. Even if it's not suicidal, lots of teens have these dark, revengeful fantasies to whoever did them wrong. Ik that not every suicidal teen is like that, but I can't say those fantasies are uncommon.
And when we get older and develop the critical thinking skills we didn’t have then, we realize you won’t even be around to see this revenge. You’re dead, you’re gone. You lost your life and people will move on.
I still have this fantasys Even making up lies so that people i dont like even suffer more after my death. Like blaming someone for my death and pretending they were a monster. I know its wrong but i just cant stop. The thought of someone have his life ruined because of my death gives me joy
It's like Netflix does one take of each show. And there is no one that asks, why? Why is this written like this? Why are these characters doing this? What messages are we sending?
@@thegooddinggleberry netflix basically stated they are going to pander to the far left. The far left and far right make no sense, so it's no wonder their shows don't make sense. lol
Alyssa Turnbill telling people suicide is good actually and misunderstanding how to handle an intense psychological conversation is not a far left idea, I’m sorry lol. You obviously have no idea what leftists are besides boogey men... Netflix is trying to pander to the melodrama of teenagers here. NOT politics. They ultimately failed because they sent a dangerous message. I don’t think far left or far right would send this message...
Out of all of it and there’s a lot that bothers me, what is so wrong about season one, is that essentially clay is put through all of this mental anguish and involved in this horrible situation is because he acknowledged and respected Hannah’s request for him to leave her alone, he conducted himself reasonably and respected her consent and all in all drank the respect women juice as everyone should, and yet she blames him for listening to her and puts him on the tapes, wrecking clays life
FR. i was pissed off abt that, she literally drove clay to psychosis it wasn’t just anxiety and depression he was seeing and hearing things, that was so alarming and just because he respected her??
@@elizabethsmith7224 I liked the book when I read it, but not because I thought Hannah was in the right. I sympathized with Clay the whole time and I could feel how confused and hurt he was about the situation. I read it many years ago but I remember it never gave me the notion that Clay deserved all that, unlike the show (which is one of the reasons why I hate the show so much)
@@elizabethsmith7224in the books she clarifies she doesn’t blame Clay for anything, was actually a little afraid of him BECAUSE of the respect she was getting from him and wasn’t used to it, and only had him get a tape as he was a connection between everything that happened to her, and she wanted him to know because she liked him, in some way.
Having read the book: The story is great when you see it through the lens of a story about sexual assault, but falls desperately flat when viewed as a story about depression and suicide.
Right? I read the book the year before the season 1 came out and I NEVER felt like Hannah was the main character, that it was triggering, that it was glorification or that suicide is a way to get back at the bullies lmao. Too bad they didn’t take more notes from the novels approach
as a teen who actually considered suicide, this show is so damn horrible. i cannot even begin to explain why it is so toxic and it has the potential to actually encourage kids to turn to suicide to deal with problems. i read somewhere that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem... i hope people hear it too to know that suicide is PERMANENT as in game over no more lives.
@@ishanafondekar6334 I was saying the exact same thing. I also almost committed suicide as well, and I was super pissed with this, i cant even find the words to how atrocious this is.
@@roguespartan2854 ikr! i had a female friend who watched this show and thought it was AmAzInG that i stopped talking as much bc she had decided i was depressed. she asked me if i was going to die and being the idiot i am i said 'i wouldnt mind it' and she laughed bc she legit thought that it was So CoOl that i was in this state
One thing that people overlook that really bothers me is the suicide scene itself. Slitting your wrists has to be among the most AGONIZING ways to die. Hannah just grunts uncomfortably and easily cuts herself. It's not calm, you won't settle comfortably into a warm bath, you'll be kicking and screaming, and you'll probably call an ambulance if you are coherent enough because you'll just want the pain to stop. This show really glamorized suicide and I've spoken to a few people that thought the exact same thing. I hope everyone suffering calls out for help, and I hope you are received with open arms by those you love, and those who are trained to help. I know the struggle myself, and while nothing went perfect, I never regretted reaching out and saving my own life.
I actually attemped suicide this very way and still have the very visible scars, the stitch marks scarred visibly too. My experience looked a lot different than Hannah's... I was in a lot of pain, cutting slowly the way she did was WAY too painful for me (I tried) so I had to do it with multiple, fast slashes. She was too calm for it to be realistic at all and the physical pain wasn't conveyed in the scene at all. Also realising you're close to death comes with a lot of panic, tears, fear, sudden questioning and regret, confusion of whether you want this or not. You're hit with so many emotions all at once that it's surreal. I was very calm in my preparations but the moment I did it, I was everything but.
Can confirm as someone who tried. I think being wet would make the experience all the more horrible. I didn't hit a vein or artery, but it was so fucking painful and not at all worth it.
@@lauraanderson8785for realism, sure it’s lacking, but it’s also gut-wrenching levels of disturbing and painful to watch. I don’t feel comfortable sharing to much personal information, but In my past, I was dealing with a horrendous mind state, and my mental health was very poor. This scene helped myself reinforce this was not something I wanted to do, this isn’t how I wanted to go out, etc. I’m a lot better off mentally now, but just wanted to share my personal experience.
@@Jaded-ITSyou know what helped me and my suicide "phase"? I realized I'm not in human sex trafficking, I'm not starving in some third world country, I have unlimited access to the internet, etc.
Um... as someone who has been through that pain before... imma go with no. Some people might have that response I'm sure, and while it hurt like hell I just grimaced and gritted my teeth. And once it was done and all I could really feel was throbbing aching pain I was actually happy and relaxed, cause I knew everything would finally be over. Though I'd been SH for 6 years at that point and was doing what I could to make it hurt as much as possible. It's good to remember though that everyone is different.
yeah people are generally pretty nice unless y’all have beef. I’ve never seen more drive in a teenager than in teen dramas to ruin someone’s life. Just nobody’s that commited
I was a loner for half of hs and hardly anyone cared. you can’t let people care and let their opinions get to you. that’s literally all hannah needed to do and probably switch schools as well
I graduated high school a long time ago but the kids there were generally horrible. Especially at the first one I had to attend in Texas, they were racist as hell. But at least the students weren’t 13 rw horrible? I don’t know lol
thy lionheart I was going to say the same thing, that statement literally validates the most unhealthy perspective people have in high school. It’s why they shut down and give into paranoia, and also why they do stupid things for popularity even at someone else’s expense. But everyone’s just trying to look out for themselves in reality.
I mean, I know it's not like that and no one actually gives a shit. But for me personally it really feels like I'm being watched by everyone around me. I've got severe paranoia tho, and rationally I know that no one gives a damn about what I am doing. I still always think I'm being watched and judged by everyone around me. Every time when I hear someone talk/whisper and I can't understand what they're saying, I believe that they are talking about me, every time someone looks in my general direction, I think they're judging me and all that. I know it's not true, I just can't help it... I'm not trying to validate the show or the message or anything, I'm just saying that some people really think/feel this way.
Laura S. That’s totally valid, and something a lot of people struggle with. But when they say that in the show, they aren’t bringing awareness or compassion to what you’re going through. They’re claiming that all those fears are true, and true for everyone, and that’s not fair or okay. I hope you have been able to/in the future find coping methods and find ways to thrive ❤️
Laura S. I can relate to this, during my first year of HS, I honestly thought everyone at school HATED me, like for no reason at all. That's just how my perspective was and it made me super super insecure. And even though it's starting to get better now, there are still times where I genuinely feel that people are constantly judging me from behind my back, whether it's from my friend group or not. It really sucks tbh.
@@ClarisseColumnas Oh my god, yes. I was bullied from elementary school up until my third year of advanced school(I'm from germany, we don't have high school, middle school and high school are together, basically). Ever since then I had severe paranoia and anxiety issues. I hope you will get better tho, I wish you the best of luck!
I have a particularily strong hatred for this show. When I was in highschool we had three suicides. One a year ahead, and the other two in the same month. This was so traumatic for me that I was in a denial phase for five years because I was so disgusted and so angry and so upset that I didn't even want to process it. I wanted to just sweep it under the rug like "eh, didn't bother me." So during this whirlwind of trauma was when this show came out. Everyone was terrified that people at my school would watch it. They were so afraid they outlawed all talk about the show completely. When I found out what the show was about it was bad. I just felt this unrestrained anger. The idea that a show was giving ideas for teenagers to have reasons why they'd do something like this was just unbearable for me to think about. Not only that, but Hannah absolutely disgusted me as a character. Most of her reasons were so petty it made me sick. Thinking that teens could think of so many, for lack of a better term, easy reasons to do that was just an awful thought for me. Rather than "it was an escape from a hellish reality" it was "this is what happens when you make me upset" that's god awful. I can't imagine ever thinking that. This entire show is just so disgusting and unnessecary.
This show paints suicide as something you do when you’re angry at the world. It’s something that people do when there is self conflict. When you just can’t live with yourself anymore. I’ve survived suicide, and I’ve known someone who committed suicide and I can say it was never as payback to the world like the show likes to paint it. People want to commit suicide because they feel like the world is better off without them, not just to get back at people
Joseph Basile Hannah didn’t commit suicide to end her suffering, she did it to get revenge. The book does a great job of making out question her motives and acknowledge that her truth is just as valid as the truths of the people she made tapes on, and yet neither are completely right. Basically; the show couldn’t even be bothered to do as well as the book did, and the book isn’t perfect by any means.
@@Mimyakko She probably didn't have mental health issues. You don't have to have mental health issues to commit suicide. So I don't understand the argument.
Apparently the show creators went to many schools with high suicide problems, and were told things to specifically avoid. The show creators ignored this
Exactly what I thought, I bet the writers are all boomers or gen x’s. The whole mental illness pro trail is inaccurate expect in few situations. An example is Hannah’s suicide nearly no one commits suicide in vengeance, to get the sense of revenge on all who have wronged you. I can speak on this as I suffer with depression and have attempted and I can say that not once did I (in my worst state) blame others. Rather no matter what happened I’d blame the narrative on myself, I’d tell myself that I’m a bad person and everything is my fault. This is such a big short coming as it may give people who have a hatred for the world commit suicide as revenge. Another short coming is whole guidance counsellor situation, in which she refuses to give him information on her rape and the people blame him for her feeling more depressed. Also the whole ‘he should’ve done more’ or ‘why was his advice so bad’ when I completely understand what he said due to the fact that he said to help her since she didn’t want to press charges. Overall I feel like the whole show is overdramatised in different aspects, also the show is taken way too seriously. It’s a good show with decent writing and cinematography however anyone who is mentally vulnerable should NOT watch it as it’s so easy for a person to look at the narrative of Hannah and link it to themselves and say “hey I’m not wrong here”
Hello Future Me did a video about this series, and talked about balancing the wish to realistically portray drama sympathetically while also noting how it and other trauma drama (my term, not his) can trigger some people. He actually says he isn't sure how to do it without having some unfortunate effects.
YES, I READ THAT TOO. These people clearly told them exact things to avoid doing, specific scenes that shouldnt be in there. For example: they showed the scuicide on screen.
Is been know for centuries man cant get ra*ed still in 2023 there are ppl (mostly woman) don believe man can get ra*ed cus they are strong and they can fight off for guys no matter how small u are
@@ToweringPsychicIt’s basically “torture porn” akin to how a horror movie displays gore and murder, but with a graphic depiction of horrific assault for ‘shock value.’
A lot of these people who are in Hollywood never went to normal public schools like everyone else. They're all from wealthy families and went to private schools and these depictions of high school drama are just them writing about how they imagine the savage peasants interact.
For real. I would've done anything to get anyone to notice when I was and wasn't at school. There was only one person who made my life hell and that was a teacher who didn't understand how legally required disability accomodations work
13 reasons why season 4 Hannah returns from the dead and kills all those who have sinned against her. It turns out she was a terminator sent by sky net after the failure of the first terminator she then proceeds to eradicate key figures and hunts Sara Conner in South America
someone is trying to revive bryce walker, but they need a new body, a new "shell" as he implied in season 3 with being "reborn into other men" The story turns into castlevania aria of sorrow. Where you follow the story of the new protagonist, the Bryce Walker vessel that will be used to revive him.
Even Cassidy Casablancas being revealed as the true antagonist from Veronica Mars season 2 was more believable than this. And that plot twist felt like it came out of nowhere because of the way he was apparently revealed to be a psychopath who raped and did murder with nobody catching on.
no way he’s just a soft wittle cinnamon roll omg lol uwu honestly though it’s pretty stupid that they thought we’d forget the drawn out graphic rape scenes and want him to get justice as if he should be some sort of wonderful and undeserving character
I watched this show last year during quarantine and realized if you look past all the random melodrama it's unintentionally funny such as "I may be gone from this earth but I'll be reborn in the bodies of a million men"
I was listening to the episode audio only and my first thought was that it was kinda tasteless of IHE to splice in a scene from a Marvel movie for a cheap joke.
They treated the hallucination of Bryce like a vengeful ghost trying to possess Clay so he could go back to raping women again. Even though hallucinations are images from mentally ill people's minds that they project into reality. They're not ghosts.
Every rapist is secretly a cartoonish villain. I can't imagine that being a bad message to send to the impressionable youth. This show feels like trashy garbage that would play on the TV in the background of a much better but also trashy show.
Making the r**ist "sympathetic" was so disgusting and reprehensible. As someone who's experienced sexual assault, seeing that they decided to portray the clearly sadistic individual who knowingly committed sexual assault in that way was such a slap to the face. Just spit on me, it would be less disrespectful. Edited because people would rather criticize my improper use of the word "humanize" than actually understand what I'm saying
The whole concept of humanization is entirely flawed. We're only really bad compared to the saints we pretend to be. When in reality, the vast majority of human history is filled with pain, suffering, betrayal, and savagery. Does that mean that the vast majority of human actions are inhumane? It sounds idiotic to me.
@@negitivebike3169 agree. If half of the population commits these type of stuff it means is part of who we are as humans. Its not a exception limited to a minority group of individuals.
"Humanizing the r**ist was so disgusting" everybody is human, darling. Just because someone do something bad doesnt mean is not a human person anymore. People are not only bad or only good. So this phrase doesn't make any sense.
@@farahiccol3424 of course everyone is human, I'm not disputing that. But r*pe is a completely evil thing to do, there is really no excuse for it and yes, I don't think anyone deserves to suffer and I don't believe in capital punishment but also if I heard you r*ped someone, I am staying far away from you because you are clearly a dangerous individual who lacks a sense of decency and respect if you violated someone's body in such a horrible way. Same applies to people who attack other people unprovoked. You're probably gonna wanna stay away from people who committed aggravated assault, yeah? Common sense
It's hard to see how this show didn't glorify suicide when everything she's doing is seen as right and at the end her plan works, which was to make everyone around her feel guilty
Exactly. 5 years ago I was bullied at school to the point of being suicidal and I had this fantasy that if I killed myself everyone who's ever hurt me would be sorry. I didn't act on my suicidal thoughts and I eventually got help but there's still plenty of kids out there who are going through the same thing I did. This is a harmful mindset for a popular show like this to be promoting to its young impressionable audience
@@ShakenBake444 but impressionable, vulnerable viewers will view it as a win since her "ghost" was there watching over anything. believe what you want about the afterlife but whatever rules you go by there's no way you can sit w a big of popcorn in the other world & watch people emotionally tormented over your suicide. i think that's what lots of these "revenge fueled" suicidal people believe it'll be like, and the shows pushes said narrative :-/
@@andrewnovak1390 Same with me :( i believe that if I watched a show like this at that time of my life I would probably feel like I was on the right to do that. Glad you're doing better now
What might have worked: Hannah, everytime something horrible happened to her, recorded tapes, breaking down in tears, talking about what happened, because it helped her. Then, she has a really dark episode.... and commits suicide. Not planned, just her feelings overwhelming her in that moment. Then a classmate finds her tapes and realizes, that every tape is about one of the people in her life, that hurt her. That classmate decides to distribute the tapes among all the people that hurt hannah, to show them, what shitty friends/people they were in that moment. Then build some kind of narrative around that, some of her friends trying to uncover crimes, trying to work through their feelings, trying to understand, what they could have done better, ect.
@Infinite Warlock right? It just bothers me, that her suicide is shown like this elaborate plan, which... As far as I know at least, is totally unrealistic. Someone who commits suicide doesn't (really) plan it. It usually is an action that occurs in a time of extreme emotional distress
How Netflix's writers didn't come up with this idea blows my mind. That is way more believable and gets around the "glorifying suicide" and "suicide as revenge" problems season 1 has.
This is genius. I love this idea and it makes more sense. It’s more accurate And would do a much better job at conveying emotions and starting a conversation Instead of making it look like an unsympathetic revenge plot and a failed attempt to sTaRt A cONvErSaTioN
I just hate what they did in the first season with Hannah's r*pe scene. I mean, am I the only one who noticed how illogical that scene was written? Before the scene starts, she's well aware that Bryce r*pes people, cause she saw him do it to Jessica while Hannah was hiding in the closet. So, when she figures out it's Bryce's party she's wandered into, you would think she'd at least be highly on her guard if she didn't just simply leave. But no, she strips down to underwear to hang out in his hot tub. Then, she falls asleep. And when she finds herself alone in the hot tub with Bryce, she doesn't immediately recognize the dangerous position she's in and get the f out of there. Instead, she indulges him in a little chat, giving him a chance to get closer to her, so he can stop her from escaping later. If she hadn't known he was a r*pist beforehand, it would've been fine. She would have no reason to fear for her safety. I mean, MOST women are taught to be careful around guys they don't know well, but she's also a teenager. It's fair to think she might not take those warnings as seriously just because of her lack of maturity and wisdom. Most teenagers don't take warnings which spoil their fun too seriously. It's not like that's unusual. But she SAW him r*pe someone. She KNOWS how dangerous he is. And that makes her actions in the scene seem particularly stupid. I just don't get why the writers seemed to have completely forgotten that Hannah had been a firsthand witness to Jessica's r*pe. EDIT: To anyone calling this post victim blaming - there is no victim here to blame. Hannah Baker is fictional, and therefore not at all capable of her own decisions or actions. So there is no use in blaming her for things which she did not decide. What I am doing is "writer blaming." And I am very comfortable doing so. The way writers portray r*pe scenes ought to be done very carefully. And clearly, these writers did not.
If you have seen the show , she was invited by her friends and since her friends were with her in the tub she felt safe because her fiends with her , and if your a girl your afraid to speak up, or even do anything. And she didn’t know it was Jessica. So she was not aware, later in the show after the rape scene, she found out from others, as there’s a tape, wich is one of the reasons “the unknown girl” wich would be tape 9.
@@joshuaalmager1305 Yes, I have seen the show. And if you remember, she later wakes up in the tub to find herself alone with Bryce, her friends are all gone. And for some reason, she stays to chat with him for a while, apparently not even a little bit worried about her safety. That's unrealistic, considering what she saw him do. The writers were very stupid for forgetting that. They could've at least written the scene with her getting the hell out of the tub as soon as she recognizes she's all alone with a r*pist, but they don't. The writers did a bad job in the scene and definitely made Hannah look way more foolish than they should have.
@@Lady_de_Lis well, I agree with you. It has no sense. BUT, In the book, she does it bc she wants to have a reason to kill her self. And she went in that bathtub with Brice for making “real” the gossips about her (being a bitch) but they did it horrible in the serie. Christ.
If I remember correctly, it's very different to what happens in the books. The rape happens near the very end, and Hannah knowingly wanders into the pool with Bryce and some other girls. He gropes her. I don't remember him doing anything more than that (which is still wrong), but if I'm wrong feel free to correct me
"You don't want to give someone a reason why let alone 13, at least unopposed." Fantastic. That was the biggest problem I had with this show. It's one thing to imply complicity in situations and feelings that result in suicide, but this show literally just presented a series of things teenagers experience like all the time but dramatized and with the conclusion that she was right. Also, bold choice despite all the controversy and, the poor quality of his past work, for Netflix to hire Onision to write season 3 of this show.
Well I mean it probably to an extent is. It's one of the two forms of sexual assaults that are allowed to be joked about on live TV. The other is obvious.
Actually it hit very close to home for many people. It was so awful and graphic it stuck with viewers. Usually people cannot imagine what it's like, they were traumatized alongside Tyler. I think they did him dirty in the aftermath though. They just pushed back his pain and he never spoke about it.
I hated the scene, don't get me wrong jt got the reaction jt was meant to. I was watching jt and laying down on the couch. When he pulled out his guns I sat up and did the classic "gamer lean"
The solution is simple: just watch Bojack Horseman instead - it tackles mental health a million times better than this one and has a great 6 season story - concise and beautifully crafted
sometimes shows have to end. And when shows that DO make bank close, it's because the writers care about making a well rounded, wrapped up story and ending a show when it needs to. Somethin like stranger things should have closed at the first season but it was too much of a success for netflix to waste it's potential, and that ruined the show. But something like a series of unfortunate events, ended at the perfect moment, even if it hurts losing the show and never knowing what will happen to the characters, but the ending was perfectly crafted to not appreciate it
I read the book and it made it feel like Clay was actually more of a “neutral” party. Like yes, he was in the tapes but his tape was never “bad”. I hated how it made Clay out to be more of this involved person when the book kept him as a more neutral party.
I actually feel bad for jay asher (the author) because I honestly don’t think he was trying to romanticize suicide or portray it as revenge, I really think he was just underinformed and trying to help.
He seriously helped me out. I bought the book the same day a friend of mine killed himself and between the book and really good parents and guidance counselors I was able to grieve in peace
I tried offing myself like half a year after the first season came out (unrelated). When I came back to school there was this hardcore fangirl of the show who leeched onto me and would'nt leave me alone in an effort to "safe me". It was really cringey and downright insulting, cause she made up a whole story about me being abused by the system and my friends and yadda yadda yadda, which was not the case at all, she just kinda.. assumed.
@@DanielleVlog365 Well, I was really vulnerable at the time and at first I just thought she was being nice, so I befriended her. She became borderline obsessed and spread some rumors about me to distance me from my other friends in an effort to "save me" (as crazy as that sounds, she actually admitted to doing so). When I noticed it was already too late and my reputation was pretty damaged, so I basically told her to go fuck herself. That only worked partially (she left me alone but she constantly texted me and asked other people about my life) and I had to deal with her till the end of high school, but I was barely there anyway since I lost so many friendships that I became an outcast and skipped almost all of my classes.
@@yumayae8514 Doesn't sound crazy. Similar thing happened to me. Solidarity, Sis 💙 You're better off without them. You're definitely better off without her.
@@yumayae8514 There are people out there who specifically prey on people with mental ilnesses, because they hope they are mentally weak, so they can feel supperior to them. Honestly that girl sounds like a narcicist. Trying to get rid of your support system (friends and family) is one of the things a narcicist would do. Mabye it helps you too, to watch some videos about narssicistic abuse, to try to understand what happened to you.
The big, gigantic thing, is that 13 Reasons Why ignored mental health professionals. They said for them to not do certain things (I.e. the suicide scene and the rape scenes) and they deliberately went against them. That’s the issue. The issue is the blatant ignorance in the production of the show and the way they went about things. Selena Gomez and anyone involved should be held accountable for that. The fact that they also changed the way she killed herself also, in my opinion, shows that they didn’t want to show the consequences, they wanted to show “the drama”.
I love how every coming of age series or move is about drugs, sex, partying. This was supposed to be a series to spread the awareness of suicide and how to prevent it. All this did was show a girl who desperately wanted to fit in, and when she couldn't she blamed everyone for why she killed herself. 😴
You guys remember the movie The Perks of Being a Wallflower? That movie had themes of depression, sexuality, toxic masculinity, suicide, and rape. And it managed to be get a message across in 2 hours. While this show continues to speak with it's foot in it's mouth and Netflix proceeds to milk it for controversy. Fuck this show. If you want a sappy teen movie with some heartfelt moments that is capable of "starting a conversation" just go watch that movie. It will save you over 40 hours of torment.
The part about her mom being the best at showing emotions? That's because she is an amazing actress who gives more than half of a shit about her role. Kate Walsh puts her heart into her roles always.
holy shit, yes! she was fantastic in all of her scenes. the scene where she finds hannah dead in the bath broke my heart. it was the only scene in season 1 that actually moved me to tears.
i picked this book up in my middle school library way before any show was made, and i was able to tell within 10 pages what a load of exploitative revenge-porn predatory bullshit it was. I was not a particularly savvy 12 year old, either. When the show got made Any relatives or loved ones I had who watched or defended it got all of my vitriol. I've struggled with depression for a decade now, and nearly lost some of the most important people in my life to it as well. It's not your fucking cash cow to milk, netflix. Also fun fact, in like, season 2 i believe? they said they brought on real mental health experts to advise them on writing realistically .... and then ignored them :)
That book was actually a huge source of comfort for me as someone who struggled with suicidal thoughts. I felt like there was someone who understood the way I felt. If you read the ending you'd know clay thinks about how all this could have been prevented if hanna took any of the help offered to her by the people around her, it wasn't framing her suicide as a good thing and the tapes were clearly bad too.
I was diagnosed with clinical depression when I was 12 and when this show came out my mom watched it thinking that she would learn more about how to help me (god bless my mom) but she was horrified that this show made the illness I suffer from look like something trendy and badass.
Homie, I like your mom. I've been diagnosed with depression for the last like, three years. I lost count tbh. Doc has said that based on what I've been brave enough to share, I've likely had it wayyy longer. My mom has done all she can to help me too. Finding new ways to help me as much as she can with other problems as well, medical and mental. I wasn't diagnosed yet when the show came out, but I kinda already knew something was up with myself. That I should get help. When it dropped, my school banned us from watching it or encouraging watching it. And when I said I'd heard about 13 reasons, my mom looked visibly frightened. Only to relax when I said we were told not to watch it and I'd heard the basis of what it was about from someone who did with her own parents. And that yeah, no interest. God Bless good Mommas.
The quote, “because in high school, everyone’s watching you all the time.” Boiled my blood. I don’t know what highschool this is but in a normal high school, everyone’s too concerned about themselves to care about you at least on a superficial level. Unless you do something REALLY weird or outlandish no one will remember or care. And that feeling that everyone is watching you, all the time, is definitely not a healthy mindset nor one that should be promoted.
Right? I'm a senior myself and the main lesson I learned in high school is that everyone has their own problems to worry about. They don't care about mine.
Lathliss Elara I agree because having a paranoid like mentality can be a massive hindrance to you at high school because your bound to be distrustful of people and many different factors and even if you are a loner at high school, there’s gonna be moments where either people need your help or vice versa.
High school can be a terrible place for a small amount of individuals and I hope they're not watching this misleading and harmful show. There's gossip and drama but most people move on from it and you're old news before the weekend. Still, I totally get what you mean.
As someone who has social anxiety that mindset is already flowing through my mind and to have that be confirmed by a TV show would not help my social anxiety
@@Vanessa-xx3yz Yeah, right? Like, the other day, my friend was talking about somebody, and when I asked who he was, she said "oh, you know, the amputee with the foot fetish". I still had no clue who that was, so I asked around, and apparently a student at my school was an amputee with a known foot fetish, and I had made it to senior year without knowing any of this.
Inside Out is a fantastic movie that a lot of child therapists use as a tool to help children identify their emotions, we need more shows and movies like that :)
I agree but I still think there needs to be one more directed at teens as they are the biggest liability when it comes to mental illness. There is middle schoolers 1000s of them killing themselves every year and millions more thinking about it and inside out doesn't dive into the more serious discussion of this topic
Yo, psych student here to talk about the medical side of Alex's recovery. We learned about a similar case of survival in class with one Phineas Gage, who lost part of his frontal lobe in a rail working accident. The frontal lobe is in charge of dictating opinions, decisions, and empathy, and helps make people who they are. When Gage lost part of his frontal lobe, he became a bitter man with little empathy. And I believe that this would be a similar situation with Alex in the show. He wouldn't have memory loss though, since for that to happen, he would need significant damage to the hippocampus (which is hidden behind the frontal lobe). His partial paralysis would also not be impeded, since the part of the brain that controls motor functions is in the back. However, his emotional outbursts would definitely make sense, along with any lapses in judgment or uncharacteristic behaviour. Edit: On the note of Clay and the Hannah apparition, although ghosts wouldn't make sense in the context of the show, clay having schizophrenia would be a very slim chance. While younger people can have schizophrenia, it's uncommon for symptoms to show before they're in their 20's. Not to say it never happens, but it isn't exactly the norm for the disordsr. Also, it's kinda sus that Clay only starts hallucinating after Hannah dies. And as far as I know, schizophrenia is a neurotype much like adhd is. Edit 2: I got some stuff about schizophrenia wrong, so thank you to the person who corrected me for telling me /gen
Schizophrenia can develop at any age, typically it’s diagnosed between 15 - 25 for men and 20 - 30 for women. Although diagnosis outside of 12 - 40 are rare even they can occur, there’s not set age to start noticing symptoms it just starts when it feels like.
Don't just say that he had a rail accident. He was shot through the head by a meter long iron bar, it passed through his brain, landed over two dozen meters away, went to a doctor and had some of his brain slip out during the examination. At least he survived though
also depending on how alex shot himself it could’ve gone through the temporal lobe and then to the hippocampus but he would’ve had to shot himself at a straight but down angle and apparently he flinched so yeah i doubt he hit his hippocampus
Definitely they don't "only really develop after age 24". I have a sister who started showing signs at 9, but my religious family thought she was possessed so she didn't get diagnosed until 21. She herself believes she's possessed to this day and she's been talking to/hearing/feeling/seeing this demon since she was 9.
I’m not annoyed at the fact that Hannah is painted somewhat cowardly and not perfect, I’m annoyed that they still tried to make her seem like a hero who was completely justified in her entire revenge plot and suicide, because that is so dangerous and irresponsible. Basically I’m just saying that at least from my perspective, the poor characterization of the characters on the tapes and Hannah do more harm than good.
Ironically, the more seasons there is, the less reason there is. In fact, if they really do 13 seasons, they will be just 0 reason but one, shitty writing so bad Hannah just give up and is rapidly ceasing to exist!
S1: suicide, the tapes, outcome S2: trial and revenge -to- S3: a murder case...? i was so confused. it went from suicide awareness to finding out who killed bryce.
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios I think they tried to flesh him out after two seasons of the mustache twirling villainy. When I saw the tag line "Who killed bryce?" I honestly didn't give a shit and no amount of "uwu he's human too" makes his horrible actions and their consequences any less potent and his own actions caused his death. Karma killed bryce and they milked 13 episodes out of it.
"You don't want to give people any reasons why, let alone thirteen" Best message ever in the topic of su*cide tbh. It is already better than the whole series.
On one hand, yes, you should stop encouraging and validating morons who want to off themselves over worthless "problems", but it's still interesting, the actual reasons and comparative mental strength of people who do off themselves
Eugene InLaw it was more so the wording being offensive as it describes some suicidal people as morons who try to kill themselves because of what you describe as “worthless problems”
i watched the first season when it came out and at the time, i was suicidal. in a lot of ways, it helped me and made my feelings feel valid. but, on the other hand, looking back now, it was extremely damaging too. it romanticised how i was feeling and made me feel like people would care once i was dead which speaks for itself as to how damaging that was. the worst issue with 13rw is how disrespectful it was to make it into a murder mystery after the first season as a cheap money grab
Generally when people commit suicide it's more of an impulse and not so meticulously planned out to the point where you 13 record tapes about why you killed yourself and create a whole plan on how those tapes will be released. Which is one of the many things I found wrong with this show to the point where I only got half way through season 1.
It's not always the case. Though I've never done this exactly, I have written notes to people I love ahead of time and a few times I've given my things away to people I wanted to have them. There was one point I was doing research, made a will, and working over time saving up to pay for my own funeral Costs so that my family wouldn't have to worry or think about any of that.
@@theonlylucyliu Don't blame the scene, if you were going to do something, you were going to do it anyway. Censorship doesn't help anyone. Sorry, but I nearly died to suicide and we don't need censorship, we need reality.
@@alyssaaurora369 I agree people must know that this is a real thing and they have to see it but for some people it really is triggering, not everyone is okay with seeing this, if it weren't for the scene I probably wouldn't have gone cutting myself at that moment
@@theonlylucyliu as a former cutter, you're going to do it with or without that scene. Sorry, but as a rape victim i still don't believe in removing rape scenes. People need to see the horror and impact they cause and they leave behind with their actions.
Yep, this series is disgusting. My best friend killed himself I was always there for him, I never blamed myself. I watched this and came out believing that I was to blame for not being there for him on that day he decided to blow his brains out.
From the tone of your comment that the series was disgusting (yes) I think you realize it wasn't your fault. But I just want to offer sympathy and love, I hope you know it wasn't. Good on you for being there every other day, you had no control and you offered all you could, and I hope you can be okay. Sending love.
Dude. I have no words. No one should ever watched this show thinking that something as tragic as that is you fault. I highly recommend Bojack Horseman.
I genuinely do not understand how this show was made for “people that may be struggling”. As someone who has struggled with very similar issues to Hannah (the whole moving to a new area during highschool, sexual assault, experimenting sexuality and depression), and this show only triggered me and made me very, very uncomfortable, but as a 15 year old watching this show, I felt like I couldn’t look away. I was looking for a reason, and this show presented to me more reasons than I needed. Obviously it’s almost 2022 now so as a 20 year old this show didn’t give me reason enough, but even reflecting now as an adult with more critical thinking this show gives me so much discomfort. Suicide is one individuals choice. Other people’s actions may influence it, but the whole implication that a suicide can be justified is a very, very harmful narrative to portray
Yeah I was in a similar Place as yours (thought in middle school) and for a bit I actually thought about taking Revenge (but not suicide)... Then I realized It wasn't worth It and preferred going on with my Life and forgive myself. I've personale always thought that if they have a conscience at some point they'll feel bad for what they did, if the don't have It there Is no revenge that Will make them understand their mistakes...
I love the irony how Hannah says 'you don't know what's happening in other people's lives and what your actions might result in' (or something along those lines) and then still proceeds to send 13 people tapes full of 'YoU'rE rEsPoNsIbLe FoR wHaT i DiD'
When she speaks with the school counsellor to talk about Bryce, she ends up getting uncomfortable and leaving which is understandable. But what didn't make sense is that she ended up making a tape on the counsellor, blaming him for not helping her, when she chose not to tell him what happened, not even just the name of the person who assaulted her. He couldn't be blamed for not knowing what happened. Maybe he can be blamed for not doing enough, but there was not much he could do for Hannah.
Paco Ramirez I don’t think the sole reason for her recording was cuz she just wanted another tape, and not help, but that she was like 80% sure that she wasn’t going to get the help. So she wanted help, but the mindset that she wasn’t going to get it before even trying influenced her reactions to what mr porter said. Her pessimistic attitude ( something developed as a result of her environment and circumstances) got in the way of attempt to get help. While she subconsciously victimized herself, I don’t believe she was walking into his office thinking “ this’ll be the perfect end to my suicide tapes”. But I can see how damaging it is to have her bring the tape in, which can push the narrative that she was just doing it for another tape
As somebody who is almost finished studying psychology I learned that you need to work with what you're given. You cannot force patients to tell you stuff if they don't want to because that could lead to conflict and it will turn therapy sessions into an unsave environment (because you are being forced). Also trauma is complex and in a lot of cases people wait to open up because, after being in a dangerous situation, they want to feel safe and comfortable (e.g. their home, living their daily lives like they normally would) and forcing them during that time period can lead to even worse distress. The counsellor did well in a way that he switched lanes in his approach: instead of trying to figure out what happened and who did it he talked about moving on, which was literally the only thing he could do. If a patient says they don't want a certain therapy then you need to accept that as a health care worker and find something that would work. And even more, when people deny help you cannot force them to (except in very severe cases in which patients get taken to a mental facility/hospital by force). I don't remember the whole scene well enough, but he could've motivated her to come again, reassuring that she doesn't need to drop a name but that he can help her move on and they can together figure out a plan on how to. Maybe the only thing he could've done was informing the parents she got raped (they didn't know, right?). But then again, you know she wouldn't have any trust left for the counsellor. I don't know USA rules regarding 16 y/o, but here in my country they are still under custody of their parents, yet, as a mental health worker you still have the duty of confidentiality which means you cannot tell everything to their parents. So yeah, he didn't do much wrong in my eyes. Also suicide is very hard to predict, and it would be harsh to blame people for not spotting and preventing it
@@donghyucksmom2413 as a psychotherapist with more than a decade of clinical experience (and a specialization in sexual trauma), I can say that the counselor was extremely premature in shifting the focus to "moving on." He failed her by getting caught up in fact finding and attempting to set the course for the therapeutic process during their first meeting instead of creating an environment for her to begin her healing on her terms. He didn't know Hannah, yet he seemed to have instantly made up his mind about what needed to be "fixed" and how it needed to be done. No matter what method of therapy a clinician practices, the primary contributor to successful treatment is the quality of the therapeutic relationship. You can't build that relationship if you are unable or unwilling to meet the client where they are at and move at their pace. He needed to listen to Hannah, ask her what she needed (knowing full well that she might not have the answer to that just yet), and take it from there.
Honestly I was suprised there wasnt a plot twist that Hannah was actually a sociopath that wanted to make others suffer by ending it and making those tapes to ruin other people's lives
so pretty much everyones a terrible person in this show and it irritates me to see how high and mighty hannah is presented in this show for recording these tapes.
I read the book in middle school and was perfectly fine with the content inside of it, but I was in a rather dark place when I watched the first season and was definitely..influenced by it’s glorification of suicide. I also don’t understand why they continued creating more seasons. The main character is dead and they fulfilled the original plot with the first season. They’re just going to keep killing dead birds with each and every season they make.
I honestly think that the book was okay. It didn’t really glorify suicide considering that it was never painted in a certain light. The book never tried to be anything more than it actually was, a book about a guy listening to tapes.
Julius Weiss the way that Hannah was exacting justice against all the people who “wronged” her and was able to make the people she believed were responsible for her suicide suffer in return
I was also going through the peak of my depression, and the show just made me have panic attacks and go even lower than I already was. it's not a good show. it's not a helpful show. it's shit.
I want to watch this show so I can rightfully judge it like most people that are against it but I know that watching the show might make me feel like shit. I'm not in the greatest place right now so I'll wait.
I just really don’t like the fact that these tapes immortalize her and now everyone is OBSESSED with her (in the show) and wants to know more about it. Like she’s such a cool mysterious girl now that she died, they just glamorized suicide in my opinion
One thing that really pisses me off with that particular scene with Tyler is that there was a kid in my town who had went through an attack just like that, by football jocks, albeit with a screwdriver. It just... It really shows that they don't give a crap about the seriousness of the situations, that do happen in real life, they only care about the melodrama it causes like its some damn soap opera.
I really hated how they villainised the school counselor for the advice he gave Hannah. I don't understand what he was expected to do. If someone comes to you saying that they have been sexually assaulted and tell you that they don't want you to know who it was and they don't want to press charges then the only logical next step is to help them heal, which is what "moving on" generally entails. He wasn't telling her to forget about it or blowing it off as something that didn't matter. He was giving the advice that he could. I myself have been given the same advice. It's well within your rights to press charges, you don't want to? No worries, let's focus on healing you instead then so that you can move on with your life and not let it destroy you.
He’s my favourite character and they did him so dirty. Healthcare workers are people too and can deeply get traumatised from their jobs. One way to do his impossible position service would be to watch his councillor’s investigation after assaulting a student (grabbing Bryce by the throat). It could show how most sex offenders don’t have proper help available (Bryce couldn’t work through his problems with the school councillor unlike every other student, pushing him to be more emotionally isolated and self-relying), while also showing his emotional problems after Hannah’s suicide and how it wasn’t his fault. It could teach vulnerable watchers what to expect and how his talking to Hannah wasn’t another dead end for healing the way the show pretended it was. Such an arrogant way for a writer to deal with very real and common problems.
i hated that too. In the novel, she wasn't really raped. She let Bryce do his thing as self-destructive behaviour to push her deeper into her depression. It wasnt just plain rape (still morally gray since she didnt want it but she didnt let Bryce know she didnt want it because she wanted to self-destruction of it). So I kinda can understand her frustration that the Councelor is only focussing on the "rape" thing and doesnt let her speak about the other stuff that is in her head. But in the series SHE WAS RAPED and he offered her help and support on it and she refused. He really did all that he could in the series, while in the novel he just kinda wanted to brush it off (but I still dont think he deserved a tape in the book either because she still could've told him whats really going on and not just run out)
@@Lee-ss8yj not really, I read the book, that was definitely rape. Many women do stop moving and just let it go while being raped to not provoke the rapist into violence. Actually, it was the same in the series. They know they're not gonna be able to fight the rapist off. In her monologue it was clear she was absolutely not consenting. It was very clearly rape and I don't understand how you thought it was "morally grey".
Yeah, that's a delusion if I ever saw one. You have to be a colossal freak or do something monumental to be the center of so much attention. When I was in highschool not even the kid who chased another kid around the school with a hatchet, screaming bloody murder, got more than passing attention. A couple days later nobody even cared.
In psychology I learned that teenagers feel judges very easily, as if people would check every move they make and definitely when they fail/embaress themselves. Of course there's variation in this feeling between different persons, but during puberty you're more prone to others opinions. When I was a teen I sometimes had this feeling, however I knew chances were low other people were watching me when passing by (because I knew myself I wasn't that focused on others, kinda like you are saying). So, in reality, chances are very low that everyone would ever stare at you entering a school hallway but it may sometimes feel like that to certain teens
@@nzack7888 Welcome to Eastern Europe, our gypsies roll like this. Enjoy your stay and don't flash your cash. (To be fair, his emotional rampages aside he was a nice kid. Dumb as a bag of bricks but didn't have an ounce of malice in him.)
i go to school with 3000 kids and i honestly think i could point out almost every single one of them T0T except the freshies but yeah man i guess "someone's watching you all the time" i am that someone
One thing about this show thats so unrealistic is that the people who were out to get her were upset that she committed suicide. Irl, high school bullies dont care. They see suicide as a win. Its not going to rock the entire school and devastate everyone. The only people who’ll be affected are friends and family. The random girls who act dramatic over it fake it to look good. That’s how it really plays out, as someone who’s been to school where 3 suicides happened in the 4 years i was there. This show romanticizes not just suicide, but also a revenge that will not happen.
I will never understand how a large team under a huge company with tons of funding will manage to bungle what a few indie devs with some Kickstarter money and a dream do wonderfully
I believe the whole “we wanted to start a conversation” is bullshit. They wanted to make a melodramatic teenage show romanticizing suicide for financial gain and needed an excuse when people figured it out. They had so many options and resources to make an actual informative/helpful show, and they missed all their chances. I watched some episodes of this show back when I was severely depressed and suicidal, because i was curious. After watching i was so angry. Suicide is not romantic. Suicide for revenge does not work, because when you commit suicide you’re DEAD. You cannot see the people left alive, you cannot communicate with them. Suicide is final. God I hate this show. Depression and suicide are not pretty.
Fr, if the conversation thing was real, they should have made it obvious, instead the whole show just kinda slowly drifts away from time to time about mental health to the mess of what even is happening
To be fair they probably did want to start a 'conversation'. However their idea of a 'conversation' is just as mentally eff'ed up as the mental health of the people they are putting on the show. They are Hollywood types and starting a 'conversation' and making money is some what the same thing. Their idea of what a conversation is is also a problem in that it's more of a sit down shut the eff up and listen to what we have to say even though they don't know sh*t about what they are talking about. Like I said they are just as mentally ill as the characters on the show. They are just as much bullies as the worst characters on the show. I hope you are doing better now. I wouldn't want you to let the Hollywood BS effect your life. They simply aren't worth it.
The first season of this show had a lot of intensity and it definitely entertained a lot of people. But deep down, this isn't about a discussion. It's entertainment. And we as a society aren't ready to accept that it's entertaining to some people.
There's a scene in this show where a dude gets beat up in a bathroom and sodomized with a mop??? I thought this show took place in high school, not prison.
It may sound outrageous but this happened to someone I knew at school, I had completely forgotten about it until now, my school was a pretty shit one in the UK though, so there is quite a big cultural difference.
WARNING: SENSITIVE SUBJECTS I finished the first season pretty quick, as a young girl who was dealing with mental health issues and not getting the help or attention I needed with a rough family life. I felt I was connected with the show. That they were making light of how hard it can be. I disagreed with how a lot of it was portrayed but the idea kind of made me feel less alone. I had tried to go through with suicide but I was stopped by knocking on the bathroom door and my concerned little sister telling me she loved me and wanted to cuddle. I couldn’t leave them with my mom and stepdad alone. My siblings deserved better. Again that’s why I sort of felt connected with the first season. But I couldn’t watch the other seasons, they were so off track of what I thought they would be and what they originally stated they would be. To conclude this comment I will first say I agree with your insight and informative facts/opinions. Second I’d like to make it known I have gotten the help I needed and have been on the road of creating healthy coping mechanisms along with not giving up. Thank you Tro for your videos. You provide information, evidence, insight, and sprinkles of comedy. Your videos are well made from both you and your editors. You are an amazing creator and I enjoy watching your content.
Imo, the show's most problematic topic or the way Hannah was written was that she did it out of revenge. As someone who watched the show when I was in a very dark place, it just made me want to do things like that; write/record last messages and leave them for people who hurt me emotionally, rather than *actually* talking to them.
In season 4 Clay gives into his despair and seals himself and all of his classmates inside the school and forces them to play a killing game in order to be set free.
You know when I was in highschool a kid in my class killed himself he never got a goodbye a assembly or even a gone to soon in the year book and I still think from time to time how dirty the school did him It gets me strangely mad at the entire place and I never even was close to the guy
happened to my yearbook too. the school acted like there is nothing wrong. i just know the girl through same biology class and say hello but i'm mad as hell when i know that no one take it seriously or just give the girl past resoect
At work one of my friends killed themselves and they didn't close when they heard and wanted everyone to go back to work the next day as if nothing had happened. We all refused so they were forced to give us the weekend off, I had to call in to my other job and not go in because I couldn't keep it together long enough to work... And then corona happened. Its been a rough year.
tbh if i were to kill myself then i wouldn't want people to dwell on it. i know it would be impossible for everyone to just pretend like nothing happened but that is just what i would want personally. people don't kill themselves for attention so why would they want for everyone to mourn them after they are dead? i think moving on is the best way but hey, that's just me i guess.
Reminds me a bit of my school when a popular kid died from a car wreck (not a collision he crashed into a ditch on his own) the school made stickers and merch to sell to kids at school. I wasn't super close to him but we were pals enough but all of the other kids in the school ate that shit up and let the school milk his death for money and then when a kid in a wheelchair that wasn't popular died. The school just made an announcement. The school also continues making merch for the popular kids death to this day(4 years later)
My biggest issue with Hannah as a character arch is that half of those tapes issues couldve been solved with Hannah simply allowing time to pass or confronting people. The series could've used this as a plot point that sometimes victims of suicide tend to think in the hear and now rather than the possibilities of the future, and sometimes do this act for immediate results on impulse. Rumors from HS dont matter after you graduate, someone not giving you a "compliment" (at least by seasons 1 standard not their retcon season 2 explanation) or "minor affection" could just be you not being that persons type. Its not like she wasn't considered "desirable" either because in her time at school she had AT LEAST 3 romantic interest.
The fact that the book has Hannah kill herself with pills, but Netflix went out of their way to have an entire scene dedicated to a very detailed glorification of a gory death makes my blood boil. I can take any sort of gore, the sight of self harm- but NOT the glorification of it in such detail: That scene made me so uncomfortable for months afterwards, all so they could have people take Hannah seriously. Its disgusting. little edit: just because you have warnings, doesnt mean people arent going to watch something. when you market yourself to teenagers with mental illness, youre going to get teenagers with mental illness watching. when you dont really give a heads up as to the entirety of what will be exposing, people assume they can handle it. The issue is that the scene is incredibly triggering, marketed to young adults, and is needlessly gory. Once people see it, you cant just reverse it. When you market to an audience that doesn’t necessarily know their limits, you cant handle yourself so carelessly. You are directly impacting such a fragile demographic, and acting as if youre advocates, so perpetuating the stereotypes and stigma that already surrounds depression is really fucking dangerous and irresponsible imo
I disagree. They did it that way to do the opposite of glorify it. To show how painful it was as you sit there uncomfortably watching Hannah suffer as she slowly loses blood. It's meant to be uncomfortable and meant to show that there's nothing cool or pretty about suicide. And the scene afterwards with her parents finding her was the most amazing scene of the show imo. Truly shows the devastation caused by suicide. Amazing acting by both actors (the mother and father) in that scene.
That scene didnt do that and was actually one of the few scenes that reallu worked in S1. It showed how horryfing suicide can really be. So no, it was in no way glorification of suicide, quite the opposite actually.
@@joshkaid Yep. I read the novel because I wanted to see if the Netflix original was just shit at embodying the source material (essentially just hoping that the book wasn't as shit as the show), but yeah. Hannah is the same in the book and the show- but the show made the conscious decision to make that scene and still parade around saying that they were mental health advocates (along with marketing themselves to troubled teens). It still took them a couple solid months to edit out the full original scene, too. I dont know how anybody could call themselves mental health advocates if they dont know that scenes/imagery/media that that can be potentially triggering, as much as i hate to use that word.
"hey guys so im alive again, but im still mad at yall so im gonna kill myself in front of you this time just to really make sure you'll forever feel guilty and I'll be made into a strong brave character even though i fucking suck uwu" sorry got distracted
When IHE started talking, I was shocked with the realization that I haven't watched his videos in sooo long! What happened? I used to watch them all the time! Glad you two are partnering up!
it's a good thing that this came out after I was out of school, which was when I would have been most vulnerable to this. I can't say definitively that I *would* have attempted a copycat aliven't, but the thought of naming and shaming people I could blame for doing that to myself was already a dangerous fantasy I'd had back then.
My biggest issues with the series are: -the lack of personal responsibility laid on Hannah for her death. -The glamorizing of suicide and its portrayal as an effective means of revenge to a potentially vulnerable audience This show was made as entertainment first and to make a 'statement' second, and for it to claim otherwise is nothing short of damaging.
Yeah... they PROBABLY should’ve been a bit more aware of who exactly was watching the show. Like, there’s a thing called a trigger, and this show is a suicidal one.
In the book hannah is a terrible human being who pretty much ends up deserving everything that happened to her, the show tries so hard to humanize her when there is literally nothing likable or redeemable about her.
As horrible as this show is the whole "glamorizing suicide" complaint is honestly horrible. It "glamorizes suicide" as much as video games "glamorize violence" or "glamorize the objectification of women."
Closed ones ye, since you just sit around with a few people that 24/7 talk about depressing things, self harm etc. But there are good people I've met there to. For therapy, open stations are the best, since you actually can get therapy (in closed ones you have barely any, it is just to protect you , or others from yourself).
@@jasonvorhees1795 I think that closed facilities do a terrible job of keeping ideation at bay by trying to close you off from talking about it, like a child at an adult's table
@@jordo641 I mean, they got a point. I have been for 2 1/2 years in psychiatrys so I got to know a few. Blocking out a subject prevents people from talking about it non-stop, like suicide. Especially in this setting, where people maybe got their own attempts, or plans, it would be bad to have them talk about it, so they maybe encourage others to do it. Having said this, it is barely enforced or followed by patients. We had another rule 'Don't talk about your diagnose'...guess what everyone asked the second you arrived?
The only person responsible for Hannah's suicide is Hannah. I have struggled with suicidal thoughts most of my life and affirming Hannah's delusion that these people "killed" her is dangerous stuff. Were they responsible for doing bad things? Yes, each of them had a sin to bear. But the choice to self-murder was Hannah's alone to make. As someone who struggles, I sympathize with any suicide victim out there, I don't think these people are bad - they are desperate and sick and need help. But that decision is theirs.
Yeah, I agree. I was once somehow in her situation (sexual abuse and bullying) and suicide never crossed my mind. I actually read that usually you have to suffer some kind of mental condition to have suicidal thoughts (but I could be wrong on this)
@@francescamazzonelli1670 The thing is, it has been proven and even told to me by my therapists/psychiatrist that every human has considered suicide AT LEAST once in their life.
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EDITING CREDITS BELOW: One clarification, around the 30 minute mark I say Alex's memory loss wasn't possible, I wasn't talking about any memory loss in general, as that is possible, I was talking about the specific memory loss the plot writers gave him. That one's on me for not specifying.
In a twist of cruel irony, this video had 13 draft renders. I hope you enjoy, but safe to say I probably won't be making a video like this for a while. Was fun to test out at least, and hopefully a nice collab. Also big thanks to I Hate Everything, easily one of my favourite pieces he's done. *Link to his channel below.*
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Lol, V shows in description
U are cool
TRO it's been a while
My best friend summarised it perfectly: "It's a show that asks you to be mature enough to get the message, but not so mature that you can tell how badly it's doing it."
Your friend is spot on with that observation, this show is incredibly manipulative and shallow in so many aspects.
Oof, hit it on the head.
So "edgy, misguided teen" ?
Totally agree. It's like "13 reasons why commiting suicide was the only choice"
So...14? Lol
Ratatouille handled the main character speaking to a dead character inside his own head way better than this shit don’t at me
This is just a fact
Agreed
i will at you because it is true.
I agree
Who was dead in Ratatouille?
Clay's tape was honestly the one that bothered me the most. His fault was that they were about to have sex, Hannah told him to stop and leave and he DID. That's EXACTLY what he should have done and to portray him being respectful of her boundaries and accepting that he changed her mind as something NEGATIVE made my blood boil.
Teaching young audiences that when a partner tells you to stop something or change their minds at any point you SHOULDN'T listen to them because "that's not what she really wanted, he aBaNdOnEd her" is SO dangerous
That confused me too so I looked it up. Aparently he was only included so he could know what happened, not because she was blaming him.
Fantastic point! He made the right decision, by refusing to have sex with her because she did not consent, yet it was made to appear as if he didn't care about her emotionally because he didn't force himself on her and honored her boundaries! This entire show is emotionally manipulative and glorifies abusive and irresponsible behavior. Its definitely absolutely terrifying how many people suffering will watch this show and somehow believe suicide will immortalize them and will make them some sort of hero or martyr. It somehow romanticizes the idea of this perfect victim; who somehow did a noble deed by taking their own life, and undoubtedly left behind such a beautiful legacy by calling others out for their perceived abandonment of her.
I know it's very difficult and so absolutely devistating when someone takes their life, let alone a child, but it was made to seem as if this was her great life purpose that was a constructed plot, rather than impulsive decision filled with agony and turmoil. I hate it.
Furthermore, though the scars of loss will always remain; they attempted to portray this loss as the end all. Sadly, people do move on except those who were most affected. Which is why these things still continue to happen..
But it wasent remember she said helmet your name doesnt belong on this list, it was me not you
@@teetee1640 it's a point that's made clearer in the book, along with the point that clay's one of the few people she knows cares about her and she feels bad knowing she's going to hurt him but it's not enough to stop her which is part of the tragedy
I totally agree. Like what was her issue with what he did. He appropriately used consent. Like wth-
They deadass at the end of the show said Clay just had depression and anxiety. The boy literally had visual and auditory hallucinations, had a number of aggressive and scary outbursts and all that is just anxiety apparently
I have anxiety and I've not had hallucinations. Could Clay have an anxiety disorder? Yes. But that's definitely not the end of it.
No joke. Anxiety doesn't cause hallucinations and whatnot. That would be psychosis.
depression can present with psychotic features but they never said that??sowtf gahah
when i was very depressed i suffered from hallucinations. its possible!
technically, coming from someone that does experience psychosis, major depressive disorder can cause psychotic symptoms but I get what ur saying!!
Show so bad homie gave a 1 hour and 30 minute long TED talk
Pinkisten i like the show. i see why people don’t like it and i have no say so in their opinion but i still watch it because i kind of relate? idk how to explain it lol
@@edgytypebeat781 I like riverdale but def NOT bc of the writing lmao. I guess it's just entertaining. The 1st season had a pretty good story tho, obv it was plagued with cringy lines but entertaining nonetheless.
@@edgytypebeat781 I also watched until the 3rd season, but I remember I had a hard time watching season 2 bc it was so weird and unfocused. The serpents honestly don't add that much plot, I prefer the plot from season 1.
marsy mars Sweet. I also have framed someone for murder. ❤️
Same here. Thanks for letting me relate to you, @@samira_360.
The fact that she got what she wanted after her suicide is what rubs me the wrong way.
Revenge Sniper That’s how i feel about it too :( The fact that they say it’s important to “spark conversation” feels like it’s glossing over how unrealistic/ ignorant their portrayal of the aftermath, and even the lead-up to someone’s suicide is... It just feels misguided and counterproductive
I've attempted suicide at 21 (im 23) and I was suicidal several periods of time as a teen. If I had watched this show when i was a young teen, I'm scared I would have felt inspired by this sort of "ideal world of payback to anyone who has ever hurt me in any way pays BIG TIME". I felt it would've pushed me more towards suicide, because apparently people only pay for what they did when I'm gone.... ?? Idk it rubs me the wrong way too.
I agree it shows teens that suicide is the right way to blackmail people into getting what u want and revenge will be exacted; never mind the fact that u wouldn’t get to see it cuz ur dead.
Cola Yeah, cause shows like these give a somewhat “assurance” that your desired wish will come true.
Yes. This. It tells people who are potentially suicidal that they will be rewarded for committing suicide.
A show that really does a great job of dealing with tough issues like depression and addiction, and abuse is Bojack Horseman.
And that show involves talking anthropomorphic animals living in Hollywood, yet it’s far more realistic than this shitshow ever will be. Really says something
@@colorcola1464 i feel like a new viewer would need context from the previous episodes to get the meaning behind these episodes though
like, yeah, Times Arrow is a heartbreaking episode but it's meaning will get dulled if the viewer doesn't even know who Beatrice is
@@jowikangaroo4710 I feel like for Time's Arrow you'd get enough from The Old Sugarman Place to appreciate it but yeah for the most part I agree
@@evelynsteger436 bUt CaRtOoNs ArE fOr KiDs
@@kittykittybangbang9367 Those people need to be extinct.
I haven’t been a teenager for decades, but I can palpably remember the feeling of being the macabre angsty girl I was. The problem with the suicide narrative is that it’s an attractive fantasy. “After I die people will finally appreciate me! They will love me. After I die everyone will realize what they did wrong to me....everyone will be sorry.”
That is total BS.
It’s a melodramatic goth fantasy....as is the actual scene where she does it. She looks beautiful and powerful in those tragic last moments. It’s a dangerous lie.
I couldn’t watch past season 1.
"i havent been a teenager for decades"
@@zetsu6888 those 2 are different in the sense that this person could be 30 or older or whatever, but being born at a young age is something everyone has done, while not everyone is older than 18 by decades
Exactly. When I was in high school a middle school boy who was bullied commuted and it was truly tragic. The kids who bullied pretended to be sad for a few days and then everyone forgot about it. I can’t even remember his name as it was about 6 years ago.
this
Teens seem to think they're main characters of some movie lol grandiose delusion or whatever they call it. It takes growing up to realise that, unlike whats stated in the show, it is untrue that "in high school, everyone watches your every move", in fact nobody gives a shit, everybody is so concerned about themselves and how they look that nobody has time for watching others unless they do some really outrageously stupid shit.
Same goes for suicide, most people in said high school will be like "yo wtf" for few days and will forget about it in few days while the parents of the deceased will suffer until their own lives end.
Im 28 and if i sat down and thought about it, i would probably be able to list 10+ people i knew who killed themselves, some of them close friends at some point, most of them i knew but not that close, but life goes on and in reality i dont think about none of them unless a topic of suicide is being discussed, not because im some sociopath but because i have my own life full of problems to worry about.
I wonder if a teenager wishing to off him or herself thinking it will teach their bullies a lesson would reconsider their plans if they knew nobody but their family will give a single shit about their suicide after like a week. I would think so but im no expert.
The fact that Clay’s obvious severe mental illness is ignored and brushed off by literally everyone around him is so insulting, especially from a show that prides itself on its “accurate” representation of mental illness and mental health
I take it that the show is trying to spin it where he deserves it somehow. If so, fuck this show even more.
@@SuperCosmicMutantSquid Yeh it is BS, blame the person that did nothing wrong, but glorify Hannah who is an absolutely shit person'.
What mental illness is it?
@Kevin Byrnes ...why are you saying this?
Watch Ozark season 3
Hannah walking down the halls sayin that “no one cared enough” has the same energy as the scene where Goob in “Meet the Robinsons” walked down the hall saying “they all hated me” when everyone asked him to hang out.
Love meet the robinsons
thats pretty spot on 😂
Don’t compare that legendary movie to this shitty show. (Also, that scene in the movie still makes me laugh every time I see it.)
THIS COMMENT KILLED ME
I LOVE that part in Meet the Robinsons lol
Bryce should've got his redemption by going to prison and pay for his actions that way, I don't care what anyone says, no rapist can ever walk and get redemption, that's just hypocritical as fuck.
True!
I understand why they chose to go the route they did, though. His very punishment (or lack thereof) was very realistic to how the law views and punishes offenders.
@@blueismylove3128 especially ones with money; Bryce was the walking embodiment of toxic white male privilege.
Agreed.
@@blueismylove3128 true, but the show portrayed his character as redemptive socially a lil bit
The worst apart about this entire show is that they changed Hannah's suicide scene.
There wasn't one in the book. It was a simple message that her parents hard found her in her bed after she overdosed on some pills. It wasn't over the top. It wasn't showcase-y. It wasn't spreading a message. It was a realistic, understanding mention in a book that showed the pain of a character that wasn't questioned as much as it was in the show. Hell, it wasn't even fought against as much as it was in the show.
Hannah's suicide in the book is meaningful and heart-stopping. Hannah's suicide in the show is showboating and uncomfortable. Its the last attempt of the show to push Hannah's victimhood, something that wasn't necessary if we were meant to believe her from the beginning.
Yeah I know I'm late but did you know that Hannah's suicide was very unrealistic. She cut her arms using a tool that didn't cut very deep. She didn't slit her wrist either which would've took hours before she bled out even if she was sitting in the tub. Her parents would've have found her and she would've have been saved. But you know shock value makes money.
@@the_almighty_zoink8683 how do you know this?
@@MEXVELASQUEZ I was curious so I googled it
@@the_almighty_zoink8683 yea the suicide info is public to tell and warn about failed suicides, it's easy to find and those are the "basics" of self ending yourself so that parents can take precautions, and basic care if they find their child bleeding on the bathroom.
I read the book after the first season came out, and while I didn't like either, at least the book tried to be somewhat, well, realistic. It felt real, and the suicide felt like something Hannah would probably do. It was much sadder to me. I'm pretty sure experts warned the showrunner(s) about the scene in the show being something that could trigger people, but I guess they didn't listen.
The show's intended message: "Bullying is bad"
The show's actual message: "Suicide is badass!"
*Frank Reynolds voice*
No
The show's secondary message: "Rapists can be good bois too!"
🙈 Danny diveto 🤣🤣🤣
i dont get how it shows suicide is a good thing.
The suicide scene is powerful, yes, but the suicide prevention agencies specifically say NOT TO SHOW GRAPHIC AND EXPLICIT SUICIDE SCENES because it can push suicidal people over the edge. THAT'S why people hate it. The show said they talked to professionals for advice so we can't criticize them, but they IGNORED everything they were told.
The fact that they talked to professionals makes it worse tbh
Jake Ellis exactly, as a survivor of multiple suicide attempts the last thing that would help is someone showing what they did
Sorry if I come across as ignorant but I want to ask why that happens? Never been suicidal so obviously I can't know any better but my first assumption would be that a scene like that might do the opposite, since it shows the reality and how morbid and disturbing that action really is, and how you would feel if you saw a friend or family member like that. What happens instead?
@@WolfJulia2001 Firstly, it's extremely triggering. The scene is graphic and explicit, and would easily trigger someone. But the main issue is that it makes it seem easy. Yes the blood is graphic, but the scene makes it seem like the pain is temporary and it's a quick and easy way to go. There are people who have admitted that for them it basically acted as a how-to guide for suicide, and basically gave them an idea on how to do it.
And that's on top of the show just generally glorifying the action by making it seem like the ultimate fuck you, not addressing mental health or ways to get help, and just generally misunderstand suicidality in general
Um actually when I herd about the scene I Tried in the same way Hanna did it did not go as planned first I was not deep and second it took far longer then it should have
"Some of you cared."
*A few seconds later*
"None of you cared enough."
What
which just makes it seem like no matter how much anyone cared, it wasn't enough for Hannah. And at that point im like screw you. Its not everyone's responsibility to baby you or be your mother or to "care" you off the edge of suicide for that matter. If nothing anyone does is good enough for her, she shouldve gotten different friends or asked her parents to go to a different school. otherwise it makes her look ungrateful and demanding.
and who would want to hang around someone like that for long anyway?
Can you seriously not parse a simple sentence?
@@Robocopnik I'm too stupid to do that
think of it like food, u can take a bite of something and not be full cus u didnt eat enough, but u still ate
As a suicide survivor, this show severely romanticized suicide and it's disgusting
Bojack horesman handled it way better
I'm happy you're still here, friend :)
ok then don’t watch it
I’m glad you survived. Hope you’re doing better
@@demhreyani3185 that's not the issue,
1. Yes, people who are suicidal shouldnt watch it. But some people aren't aware in that headspace. So the was the show romances it as well as extremely graphic scenes can tip someone off.
2. Trauma repression, having graphic S/A scenes can cause memories to resurface, when extreme trauma happens the brain can force you too forget the memories, have graphic porn and s/a scenes can trigger someone, and litteraly having people react the wrong way romstizing suicide to the victims can lead to major problems. As a s/a survior I can guarantee this is true. as I began having flashbacks AFTER watching the show
3. Finally, that wasnt the point of the show, it wasnt meant to be a drama show it was ment to start conversations and help those in problamatic situation and enlighten people on the situations people have with such thoughts and trauma. This show failed becaus it was turned into a drama and put artist and realism about the message, about positivity
It’s not a show but the film a Silent Voice while a Japanese animated film does a far better job covering mental health and bullying in a realistic way.
Agree! It's a really good movie overall.
Blue Daydream ikr it’s so dam good I wish more people knew about it even if you aren’t a fan of anime the film stands on its characters alone.
There's lots of better shows and videos that do it better.
@@joehayes9933 almost anyone with a bit of an idea of how sensitive the topic of suicide can be could make a better show honestly.
It's still one of my favourite anime movie and for good reasons.
People act like high school is this constant battlefield where it's every man for himself and the weak do not survive. It is simply NOT. High school is 4 years of academic stress, clubs, sports, popularity contests, dances, friends, failures, successes, self-reflection, and preparation for college. You're too focused getting your own mess of a self through the years that you don't have time to ruin someone else's life. I'm not saying shit teens don't exist, they do, but bullying of this degree is so rare and hyped up in Hollywood that it's downright hilarious. High school sucked, but it isn't the freaking social Hunger Games.
SavannahGeorgia facts highschool is hard but not in the Hollywood way
say it louder for the people in the back! precisely, these things do happen and are serious, but the way hollywood portrays them is really exaggerated.
I know right? It's just school.
One of the things I've appreciated from anime is that it glorifies preparation for high learning, prepation for the future, and that EDUCATION IS IMPORTANT. Whether the characters are going through a coming of age story, improving a skill, having relationships, fighting aliens, becoming a ninja, or becoming the greatest hero in the world, they always highlight the struggle of doing all of these WHILE maintaining good grades. Western entertainment has done it's best in showing that eduction and school sucks, and to just get through it like it's a punishment.
Finally someone else has said what I've been saying for years, it's super rare for bullying to happen anymore, there was like 0 bullying in my highschool because everyone had agreed that it was a shitty thing to do and would call out anyone who was being a bit of a dick. This is from someone who graduated 2 years ago, I was in highschool when this show came out and that was one of the main reasons I couldn't take this show seriously, everyone in the entire school would treat Bryce and the rest of the horrible people as outcasts
What annoys me the most about this show is how Hannah's parents expected the school to know about Hannah and step in. Meanwhile her own parents never noticed she was withdrawn and depressed.
Sounds pretty true to life.
Beacuse school kids bullied her and school did nothing
@@nansiipii9018 okay… that’s not the end-all, be-all. Do something different like take full parental responsibility over your children’s livelihoods and health instead of outsourcing them to strangers, or idk, strengthening your own internal guidance system as to not let the words of another impact you. As long as we have breath in our bodies, we have options.
Exactly.... I've always asked myself why they weren't even questioned
@@watsyourdestiny2086thank you Oprah.
Teenagers aren't known to be the most rational so telling them to just deal differently is what the counselor essentially said in season 1.
Hannah was disappointed left and right by people in her life and as a final turnabout she was talked to matter of factly.
The boldest and most to the point critique I've heard of the show was this:
Often times, especially in teen years, someone who has suicidal thoughts entertains a sort of "revenge" fantasy. I'm gonna show all those people who hurt me and never appreciated me. I'm gonna make them sorry. They're gonna feel so awful.
And the show pretty much plays right into that fantasy.
Or worse, shooting the school up
Oof yeah. Even if it's not suicidal, lots of teens have these dark, revengeful fantasies to whoever did them wrong. Ik that not every suicidal teen is like that, but I can't say those fantasies are uncommon.
And when we get older and develop the critical thinking skills we didn’t have then, we realize you won’t even be around to see this revenge. You’re dead, you’re gone. You lost your life and people will move on.
i agree i remember reading the book when i was 13 and thought it was a nice revenge story haha
I still have this fantasys
Even making up lies so that people i dont like even suffer more after my death. Like blaming someone for my death and pretending they were a monster.
I know its wrong but i just cant stop. The thought of someone have his life ruined because of my death gives me joy
13 reasons why
season 1 and 2: hannah baker
season 3: who killed bryce walker?
season 4: who ate clay jensen’s ass out?
I honestly wouldn’t be shocked tbh
L
L
Hi no but
👾👾👾👾👾👾
Season 5: Who killed Roger Rabbit
danna. I wouldn’t be surprised if they made him gay or bisexual to “start a conversation
I feel like 13 reasons why used the Riverdale template and forgot that Riverdale is not about mental health
It's like Netflix does one take of each show. And there is no one that asks, why?
Why is this written like this? Why are these characters doing this? What messages are we sending?
@@thegooddinggleberry netflix basically stated they are going to pander to the far left. The far left and far right make no sense, so it's no wonder their shows don't make sense. lol
@Booper Dooper Like I've said 13 Reasons Why is if Riverdale took itself too seriously.
Alyssa Turnbill telling people suicide is good actually and misunderstanding how to handle an intense psychological conversation is not a far left idea, I’m sorry lol. You obviously have no idea what leftists are besides boogey men... Netflix is trying to pander to the melodrama of teenagers here. NOT politics. They ultimately failed because they sent a dangerous message. I don’t think far left or far right would send this message...
@@alyssaaurora369 I wish y’all would just say you’re stupid and move on, everything else you said was unnecessary since that was the main point.
Out of all of it and there’s a lot that bothers me, what is so wrong about season one, is that essentially clay is put through all of this mental anguish and involved in this horrible situation is because he acknowledged and respected Hannah’s request for him to leave her alone, he conducted himself reasonably and respected her consent and all in all drank the respect women juice as everyone should, and yet she blames him for listening to her and puts him on the tapes, wrecking clays life
Happens in the book too, the main reason I didn't like the book really. A mostly innocent person doesn't deserve to suffer.
FR. i was pissed off abt that, she literally drove clay to psychosis it wasn’t just anxiety and depression he was seeing and hearing things, that was so alarming and just because he respected her??
I don't know why but 'drank the respect women juice' is so funny to me
@@elizabethsmith7224 I liked the book when I read it, but not because I thought Hannah was in the right. I sympathized with Clay the whole time and I could feel how confused and hurt he was about the situation. I read it many years ago but I remember it never gave me the notion that Clay deserved all that, unlike the show (which is one of the reasons why I hate the show so much)
@@elizabethsmith7224in the books she clarifies she doesn’t blame Clay for anything, was actually a little afraid of him BECAUSE of the respect she was getting from him and wasn’t used to it, and only had him get a tape as he was a connection between everything that happened to her, and she wanted him to know because she liked him, in some way.
Having read the book: The story is great when you see it through the lens of a story about sexual assault, but falls desperately flat when viewed as a story about depression and suicide.
Would you recommend the book in general as a read?
@@percyioukhnikov81 no
@@coffin3050 Ah, thank you
when i read the bookwhen i was younger i saw it through the lens of a story about revenge suicide and thought it was a nice read
@@percyioukhnikov81 absolutely not it’s depressing as fuck don’t fall into that
13 Reasons Why is basically a boomer’s interpretation of teen drama
^ THIS!
But it’s not even a boomer who made it so it goes to show
a ''cool progressive boomer that understands today's youth and troll faces''
hello good sir so Selena Gomez is a boomer? Ok
@@Las645 boomer is not an age group its a mentality
This show wasn’t about suicide awareness, it was about suicide promotion and glorification.
Right? I read the book the year before the season 1 came out and I NEVER felt like Hannah was the main character, that it was triggering, that it was glorification or that suicide is a way to get back at the bullies lmao. Too bad they didn’t take more notes from the novels approach
The amount of suicide or attempted suicide in Netflix shows really tells you how much they seem to love it.
as a teen who actually considered suicide, this show is so damn horrible. i cannot even begin to explain why it is so toxic and it has the potential to actually encourage kids to turn to suicide to deal with problems.
i read somewhere that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem... i hope people hear it too to know that suicide is PERMANENT as in game over no more lives.
@@ishanafondekar6334 I was saying the exact same thing. I also almost committed suicide as well, and I was super pissed with this,
i cant even find the words to how atrocious this is.
@@roguespartan2854 ikr! i had a female friend who watched this show and thought it was AmAzInG that i stopped talking as much bc she had decided i was depressed. she asked me if i was going to die and being the idiot i am i said 'i wouldnt mind it' and she laughed bc she legit thought that it was So CoOl that i was in this state
One thing that people overlook that really bothers me is the suicide scene itself. Slitting your wrists has to be among the most AGONIZING ways to die.
Hannah just grunts uncomfortably and easily cuts herself. It's not calm, you won't settle comfortably into a warm bath, you'll be kicking and screaming, and you'll probably call an ambulance if you are coherent enough because you'll just want the pain to stop.
This show really glamorized suicide and I've spoken to a few people that thought the exact same thing.
I hope everyone suffering calls out for help, and I hope you are received with open arms by those you love, and those who are trained to help. I know the struggle myself, and while nothing went perfect, I never regretted reaching out and saving my own life.
I actually attemped suicide this very way and still have the very visible scars, the stitch marks scarred visibly too. My experience looked a lot different than Hannah's... I was in a lot of pain, cutting slowly the way she did was WAY too painful for me (I tried) so I had to do it with multiple, fast slashes. She was too calm for it to be realistic at all and the physical pain wasn't conveyed in the scene at all. Also realising you're close to death comes with a lot of panic, tears, fear, sudden questioning and regret, confusion of whether you want this or not. You're hit with so many emotions all at once that it's surreal. I was very calm in my preparations but the moment I did it, I was everything but.
Can confirm as someone who tried. I think being wet would make the experience all the more horrible. I didn't hit a vein or artery, but it was so fucking painful and not at all worth it.
@@lauraanderson8785for realism, sure it’s lacking, but it’s also gut-wrenching levels of disturbing and painful to watch. I don’t feel comfortable sharing to much personal information, but In my past, I was dealing with a horrendous mind state, and my mental health was very poor. This scene helped myself reinforce this was not something I wanted to do, this isn’t how I wanted to go out, etc. I’m a lot better off mentally now, but just wanted to share my personal experience.
@@Jaded-ITSyou know what helped me and my suicide "phase"? I realized I'm not in human sex trafficking, I'm not starving in some third world country, I have unlimited access to the internet, etc.
Um... as someone who has been through that pain before... imma go with no. Some people might have that response I'm sure, and while it hurt like hell I just grimaced and gritted my teeth. And once it was done and all I could really feel was throbbing aching pain I was actually happy and relaxed, cause I knew everything would finally be over. Though I'd been SH for 6 years at that point and was doing what I could to make it hurt as much as possible. It's good to remember though that everyone is different.
“Everyone is watching you.”
Me: I beg to differ, I don’t even know half the people in my high school
yeah people are generally pretty nice unless y’all have beef. I’ve never seen more drive in a teenager than in teen dramas to ruin someone’s life. Just nobody’s that commited
I was a loner for half of hs and hardly anyone cared. you can’t let people care and let their opinions get to you. that’s literally all hannah needed to do and probably switch schools as well
I graduated high school a long time ago but the kids there were generally horrible. Especially at the first one I had to attend in Texas, they were racist as hell. But at least the students weren’t 13 rw horrible? I don’t know lol
TRO outs himself as being, in fact, a gamer
I reckon it is time for gamers to have an uprising.
DISGUSTING
A gaymer
Can you believe it
It is factually well known that gamers are some of the most oppressed people in society.
"In high school, everyone is watching you all the time," did i go to school on mars like what the heck how is that realistic
thy lionheart I was going to say the same thing, that statement literally validates the most unhealthy perspective people have in high school. It’s why they shut down and give into paranoia, and also why they do stupid things for popularity even at someone else’s expense. But everyone’s just trying to look out for themselves in reality.
I mean, I know it's not like that and no one actually gives a shit.
But for me personally it really feels like I'm being watched by everyone around me. I've got severe paranoia tho, and rationally I know that no one gives a damn about what I am doing. I still always think I'm being watched and judged by everyone around me. Every time when I hear someone talk/whisper and I can't understand what they're saying, I believe that they are talking about me, every time someone looks in my general direction, I think they're judging me and all that.
I know it's not true, I just can't help it...
I'm not trying to validate the show or the message or anything, I'm just saying that some people really think/feel this way.
Laura S. That’s totally valid, and something a lot of people struggle with. But when they say that in the show, they aren’t bringing awareness or compassion to what you’re going through. They’re claiming that all those fears are true, and true for everyone, and that’s not fair or okay. I hope you have been able to/in the future find coping methods and find ways to thrive ❤️
Laura S. I can relate to this, during my first year of HS, I honestly thought everyone at school HATED me, like for no reason at all. That's just how my perspective was and it made me super super insecure. And even though it's starting to get better now, there are still times where I genuinely feel that people are constantly judging me from behind my back, whether it's from my friend group or not. It really sucks tbh.
@@ClarisseColumnas Oh my god, yes.
I was bullied from elementary school up until my third year of advanced school(I'm from germany, we don't have high school, middle school and high school are together, basically).
Ever since then I had severe paranoia and anxiety issues.
I hope you will get better tho, I wish you the best of luck!
"people who commit suicide are victims"
"makes sense"
"therefore everything they do is justified, including committing suicide"
"wait no"
I have a particularily strong hatred for this show. When I was in highschool we had three suicides. One a year ahead, and the other two in the same month. This was so traumatic for me that I was in a denial phase for five years because I was so disgusted and so angry and so upset that I didn't even want to process it. I wanted to just sweep it under the rug like "eh, didn't bother me." So during this whirlwind of trauma was when this show came out. Everyone was terrified that people at my school would watch it. They were so afraid they outlawed all talk about the show completely. When I found out what the show was about it was bad. I just felt this unrestrained anger. The idea that a show was giving ideas for teenagers to have reasons why they'd do something like this was just unbearable for me to think about. Not only that, but Hannah absolutely disgusted me as a character. Most of her reasons were so petty it made me sick. Thinking that teens could think of so many, for lack of a better term, easy reasons to do that was just an awful thought for me. Rather than "it was an escape from a hellish reality" it was "this is what happens when you make me upset" that's god awful. I can't imagine ever thinking that. This entire show is just so disgusting and unnessecary.
Damn, I am really sorry, and may this horrible trash of a series be forgotten forever
@@Name-dl3uq ah, thank you. I'm alright now. But yes this show is the big stupid
Jesus..that’s awful
I can't take this comment seriously.
I have the voice of abridged version(a slap on titan) of Erwin Smith playing in my head in that message.
@@jugemujugemugokonosurikire4735 that's completely understandable
This show paints suicide as something you do when you’re angry at the world. It’s something that people do when there is self conflict. When you just can’t live with yourself anymore. I’ve survived suicide, and I’ve known someone who committed suicide and I can say it was never as payback to the world like the show likes to paint it. People want to commit suicide because they feel like the world is better off without them, not just to get back at people
Joseph Basile Hannah didn’t commit suicide to end her suffering, she did it to get revenge. The book does a great job of making out question her motives and acknowledge that her truth is just as valid as the truths of the people she made tapes on, and yet neither are completely right. Basically; the show couldn’t even be bothered to do as well as the book did, and the book isn’t perfect by any means.
Yes they act like she didn't have any mental health issues..... like she was just a tragic girl who never had a bit of depression in her life before
@@Mimyakko She probably didn't have mental health issues. You don't have to have mental health issues to commit suicide. So I don't understand the argument.
That isn;t true, Some people do commit suicide because they are angry at the world. My dear people just don't commit suicide for one reason.
Lisa H No one said it was a single reason, don’t talk down to people when you don’t even have an argument.
Apparently the show creators went to many schools with high suicide problems, and were told things to specifically avoid. The show creators ignored this
Exactly what I thought, I bet the writers are all boomers or gen x’s. The whole mental illness pro trail is inaccurate expect in few situations.
An example is Hannah’s suicide nearly no one commits suicide in vengeance, to get the sense of revenge on all who have wronged you. I can speak on this as I suffer with depression and have attempted and I can say that not once did I (in my worst state) blame others. Rather no matter what happened I’d blame the narrative on myself, I’d tell myself that I’m a bad person and everything is my fault. This is such a big short coming as it may give people who have a hatred for the world commit suicide as revenge.
Another short coming is whole guidance counsellor situation, in which she refuses to give him information on her rape and the people blame him for her feeling more depressed. Also the whole ‘he should’ve done more’ or ‘why was his advice so bad’ when I completely understand what he said due to the fact that he said to help her since she didn’t want to press charges.
Overall I feel like the whole show is overdramatised in different aspects, also the show is taken way too seriously. It’s a good show with decent writing and cinematography however anyone who is mentally vulnerable should NOT watch it as it’s so easy for a person to look at the narrative of Hannah and link it to themselves and say “hey I’m not wrong here”
As someone whose highschool had 4 suicides in the span of 4 months, two of which were back to back... shit like this hurts the brain
Hello Future Me did a video about this series, and talked about balancing the wish to realistically portray drama sympathetically while also noting how it and other trauma drama (my term, not his) can trigger some people. He actually says he isn't sure how to do it without having some unfortunate effects.
YES, I READ THAT TOO. These people clearly told them exact things to avoid doing, specific scenes that shouldnt be in there. For example: they showed the scuicide on screen.
Wanna bet they didn't actually ignore them, but were actively taking notes and thinking, "No, we gotta include this for the DrAmA!" 😒
that broomstick scene is a slap in the face to actual sexual assault victims, male or female.
Is been know for centuries man cant get ra*ed still in 2023 there are ppl (mostly woman) don believe man can get ra*ed cus they are strong and they can fight off for guys no matter how small u are
How?
I’m sorry if this came across as insensitive, I just genuinely want to know why you think that…
@@ToweringPsychicI think just cause it seems like it’s laughing at SA?.. not sure. It feels like that to me anyways
@@ToweringPsychicIt’s basically “torture porn” akin to how a horror movie displays gore and murder, but with a graphic depiction of horrific assault for ‘shock value.’
how do writers/producers so COMMONLY get how high school works wrong?? did they not go??😭
A lot of these people who are in Hollywood never went to normal public schools like everyone else. They're all from wealthy families and went to private schools and these depictions of high school drama are just them writing about how they imagine the savage peasants interact.
For real. I would've done anything to get anyone to notice when I was and wasn't at school. There was only one person who made my life hell and that was a teacher who didn't understand how legally required disability accomodations work
13 reasons why season 4 Hannah returns from the dead and kills all those who have sinned against her. It turns out she was a terminator sent by sky net after the failure of the first terminator she then proceeds to eradicate key figures and hunts Sara Conner in South America
That sounds way more interesting then what they'll give people
someone is trying to revive bryce walker, but they need a new body, a new "shell" as he implied in season 3 with being "reborn into other men"
The story turns into castlevania aria of sorrow. Where you follow the story of the new protagonist, the Bryce Walker vessel that will be used to revive him.
itll turn into a zombie movie im telling u. hannah zombie vs bryce zombie. and in the end clays kiss brings her back from the dead.
Better than Dark Fate.
This should’ve been a horror.
Can we just remember that Bryce used to GET OFF of memories of the sexual assaults he commited?
Even Cassidy Casablancas being revealed as the true antagonist from Veronica Mars season 2 was more believable than this. And that plot twist felt like it came out of nowhere because of the way he was apparently revealed to be a psychopath who raped and did murder with nobody catching on.
bUt hE wAs TrYiNg To Be A BeTtEr PeRsOn
@@louissykes2406 hE's A hUmAn BeAn
@@amandalopes3048 😂😂😂
no way he’s just a soft wittle cinnamon roll omg lol uwu
honestly though it’s pretty stupid that they thought we’d forget the drawn out graphic rape scenes and want him to get justice as if he should be some sort of wonderful and undeserving character
I watched this show last year during quarantine and realized if you look past all the random melodrama it's unintentionally funny such as "I may be gone from this earth but I'll be reborn in the bodies of a million men"
I was listening to the episode audio only and my first thought was that it was kinda tasteless of IHE to splice in a scene from a Marvel movie for a cheap joke.
They treated the hallucination of Bryce like a vengeful ghost trying to possess Clay so he could go back to raping women again. Even though hallucinations are images from mentally ill people's minds that they project into reality. They're not ghosts.
Every rapist is secretly a cartoonish villain. I can't imagine that being a bad message to send to the impressionable youth. This show feels like trashy garbage that would play on the TV in the background of a much better but also trashy show.
I can picture symphony of the night's Dracula spouting that line.
That reminds me of Atilla the Hun
Making the r**ist "sympathetic" was so disgusting and reprehensible. As someone who's experienced sexual assault, seeing that they decided to portray the clearly sadistic individual who knowingly committed sexual assault in that way was such a slap to the face. Just spit on me, it would be less disrespectful.
Edited because people would rather criticize my improper use of the word "humanize" than actually understand what I'm saying
The whole concept of humanization is entirely flawed. We're only really bad compared to the saints we pretend to be. When in reality, the vast majority of human history is filled with pain, suffering, betrayal, and savagery. Does that mean that the vast majority of human actions are inhumane? It sounds idiotic to me.
@@negitivebike3169 agree. If half of the population commits these type of stuff it means is part of who we are as humans. Its not a exception limited to a minority group of individuals.
"Humanizing the r**ist was so disgusting" everybody is human, darling. Just because someone do something bad doesnt mean is not a human person anymore. People are not only bad or only good. So this phrase doesn't make any sense.
@@farahiccol3424 of course everyone is human, I'm not disputing that. But r*pe is a completely evil thing to do, there is really no excuse for it and yes, I don't think anyone deserves to suffer and I don't believe in capital punishment but also if I heard you r*ped someone, I am staying far away from you because you are clearly a dangerous individual who lacks a sense of decency and respect if you violated someone's body in such a horrible way. Same applies to people who attack other people unprovoked. You're probably gonna wanna stay away from people who committed aggravated assault, yeah? Common sense
@@negitivebike3169 causing suffering on purpose is inhumane, yes. Being cruel is inhumane. Thus, r*pe is inhumane. Are you serious right now?
It's hard to see how this show didn't glorify suicide when everything she's doing is seen as right and at the end her plan works, which was to make everyone around her feel guilty
Yeah in the end she got her way but it seems trite since it was post mortem so it's hard to call it a "win" on her end
revenge suicide is one of the worst and immoral things someone can do. it can lead to suffering and even more deaths
Exactly. 5 years ago I was bullied at school to the point of being suicidal and I had this fantasy that if I killed myself everyone who's ever hurt me would be sorry. I didn't act on my suicidal thoughts and I eventually got help but there's still plenty of kids out there who are going through the same thing I did. This is a harmful mindset for a popular show like this to be promoting to its young impressionable audience
@@ShakenBake444 but impressionable, vulnerable viewers will view it as a win since her "ghost" was there watching over anything. believe what you want about the afterlife but whatever rules you go by there's no way you can sit w a big of popcorn in the other world & watch people emotionally tormented over your suicide. i think that's what lots of these "revenge fueled" suicidal people believe it'll be like, and the shows pushes said narrative :-/
@@andrewnovak1390 Same with me :( i believe that if I watched a show like this at that time of my life I would probably feel like I was on the right to do that. Glad you're doing better now
What might have worked:
Hannah, everytime something horrible happened to her, recorded tapes, breaking down in tears, talking about what happened, because it helped her.
Then, she has a really dark episode.... and commits suicide. Not planned, just her feelings overwhelming her in that moment.
Then a classmate finds her tapes and realizes, that every tape is about one of the people in her life, that hurt her. That classmate decides to distribute the tapes among all the people that hurt hannah, to show them, what shitty friends/people they were in that moment.
Then build some kind of narrative around that, some of her friends trying to uncover crimes, trying to work through their feelings, trying to understand, what they could have done better, ect.
@Infinite Warlock right? It just bothers me, that her suicide is shown like this elaborate plan, which... As far as I know at least, is totally unrealistic. Someone who commits suicide doesn't (really) plan it. It usually is an action that occurs in a time of extreme emotional distress
How Netflix's writers didn't come up with this idea blows my mind. That is way more believable and gets around the "glorifying suicide" and "suicide as revenge" problems season 1 has.
@@pacoramirez7363 because they based it on a book. I didn't read it but its similar I think
Yeah, the book is very similar to the show. It’s really bad. I hate it.
This is genius. I love this idea and it makes more sense. It’s more accurate
And would do a much better job at conveying emotions and starting a conversation
Instead of making it look like an unsympathetic revenge plot and a failed attempt to sTaRt A cONvErSaTioN
I just hate what they did in the first season with Hannah's r*pe scene. I mean, am I the only one who noticed how illogical that scene was written?
Before the scene starts, she's well aware that Bryce r*pes people, cause she saw him do it to Jessica while Hannah was hiding in the closet. So, when she figures out it's Bryce's party she's wandered into, you would think she'd at least be highly on her guard if she didn't just simply leave. But no, she strips down to underwear to hang out in his hot tub. Then, she falls asleep. And when she finds herself alone in the hot tub with Bryce, she doesn't immediately recognize the dangerous position she's in and get the f out of there. Instead, she indulges him in a little chat, giving him a chance to get closer to her, so he can stop her from escaping later.
If she hadn't known he was a r*pist beforehand, it would've been fine. She would have no reason to fear for her safety. I mean, MOST women are taught to be careful around guys they don't know well, but she's also a teenager. It's fair to think she might not take those warnings as seriously just because of her lack of maturity and wisdom. Most teenagers don't take warnings which spoil their fun too seriously. It's not like that's unusual. But she SAW him r*pe someone. She KNOWS how dangerous he is. And that makes her actions in the scene seem particularly stupid. I just don't get why the writers seemed to have completely forgotten that Hannah had been a firsthand witness to Jessica's r*pe.
EDIT: To anyone calling this post victim blaming - there is no victim here to blame. Hannah Baker is fictional, and therefore not at all capable of her own decisions or actions. So there is no use in blaming her for things which she did not decide. What I am doing is "writer blaming." And I am very comfortable doing so. The way writers portray r*pe scenes ought to be done very carefully. And clearly, these writers did not.
If you have seen the show , she was invited by her friends and since her friends were with her in the tub she felt safe because her fiends with her , and if your a girl your afraid to speak up, or even do anything. And she didn’t know it was Jessica. So she was not aware, later in the show after the rape scene, she found out from others, as there’s a tape, wich is one of the reasons “the unknown girl” wich would be tape 9.
@@joshuaalmager1305
Yes, I have seen the show. And if you remember, she later wakes up in the tub to find herself alone with Bryce, her friends are all gone. And for some reason, she stays to chat with him for a while, apparently not even a little bit worried about her safety. That's unrealistic, considering what she saw him do. The writers were very stupid for forgetting that. They could've at least written the scene with her getting the hell out of the tub as soon as she recognizes she's all alone with a r*pist, but they don't. The writers did a bad job in the scene and definitely made Hannah look way more foolish than they should have.
@@joshuaalmager1305 *If you're anyone. Not just a girl.
@@Lady_de_Lis well, I agree with you. It has no sense. BUT, In the book, she does it bc she wants to have a reason to kill her self. And she went in that bathtub with Brice for making “real” the gossips about her (being a bitch) but they did it horrible in the serie. Christ.
If I remember correctly, it's very different to what happens in the books. The rape happens near the very end, and Hannah knowingly wanders into the pool with Bryce and some other girls. He gropes her. I don't remember him doing anything more than that (which is still wrong), but if I'm wrong feel free to correct me
"You don't want to give someone a reason why let alone 13, at least unopposed." Fantastic. That was the biggest problem I had with this show. It's one thing to imply complicity in situations and feelings that result in suicide, but this show literally just presented a series of things teenagers experience like all the time but dramatized and with the conclusion that she was right.
Also, bold choice despite all the controversy and, the poor quality of his past work, for Netflix to hire Onision to write season 3 of this show.
Excuse me run that last one by me one more time please... You're joking right?
NO WAY THEY HIRED ONISION
@@tertiaritus yeah a joke. If you didn't know, he wrote a few books, just as terrible as you'd assume and very similar to the quality of season 3.
@@oneghost1257 ohhh gotcha. Yeah, I watched reviews of his books and it was a doozy
Gosh the guy rape scene was so so unnecessary and out of nowhere it almost feel like a mockery to actual male rape victims.
Well I mean it probably to an extent is. It's one of the two forms of sexual assaults that are allowed to be joked about on live TV.
The other is obvious.
Actually it hit very close to home for many people. It was so awful and graphic it stuck with viewers. Usually people cannot imagine what it's like, they were traumatized alongside Tyler. I think they did him dirty in the aftermath though. They just pushed back his pain and he never spoke about it.
It made me remember men can be raped too but oh goodness it was heart wrenching
It was so graphically brutal that any survivor of even 'mild' sexual assault would've been triggered
I hated the scene, don't get me wrong jt got the reaction jt was meant to. I was watching jt and laying down on the couch. When he pulled out his guns I sat up and did the classic "gamer lean"
The solution is simple: just watch Bojack Horseman instead - it tackles mental health a million times better than this one and has a great 6 season story - concise and beautifully crafted
Mad the Monk Bojack is the only recent Netflix original that really feels like a show with a purpose and not just something to kill time
@@user-cb5we5dr5g and yet it's still being cancelled
isaac williams - it ended amazingly. I’m okay with it wrapping up
@@isaacwilliams398 it's been "canceled" because it's over, sometimes a TV show just needs an ending
sometimes shows have to end. And when shows that DO make bank close, it's because the writers care about making a well rounded, wrapped up story and ending a show when it needs to. Somethin like stranger things should have closed at the first season but it was too much of a success for netflix to waste it's potential, and that ruined the show. But something like a series of unfortunate events, ended at the perfect moment, even if it hurts losing the show and never knowing what will happen to the characters, but the ending was perfectly crafted to not appreciate it
I read the book and it made it feel like Clay was actually more of a “neutral” party. Like yes, he was in the tapes but his tape was never “bad”. I hated how it made Clay out to be more of this involved person when the book kept him as a more neutral party.
I actually feel bad for jay asher (the author) because I honestly don’t think he was trying to romanticize suicide or portray it as revenge, I really think he was just underinformed and trying to help.
He seriously helped me out. I bought the book the same day a friend of mine killed himself and between the book and really good parents and guidance counselors I was able to grieve in peace
I tried offing myself like half a year after the first season came out (unrelated). When I came back to school there was this hardcore fangirl of the show who leeched onto me and would'nt leave me alone in an effort to "safe me". It was really cringey and downright insulting, cause she made up a whole story about me being abused by the system and my friends and yadda yadda yadda, which was not the case at all, she just kinda.. assumed.
Honestly that girl can go fuck herself.
What a bitch. How did you get rid of her?
@@DanielleVlog365 Well, I was really vulnerable at the time and at first I just thought she was being nice, so I befriended her. She became borderline obsessed and spread some rumors about me to distance me from my other friends in an effort to "save me" (as crazy as that sounds, she actually admitted to doing so). When I noticed it was already too late and my reputation was pretty damaged, so I basically told her to go fuck herself.
That only worked partially (she left me alone but she constantly texted me and asked other people about my life) and I had to deal with her till the end of high school, but I was barely there anyway since I lost so many friendships that I became an outcast and skipped almost all of my classes.
@@yumayae8514 Doesn't sound crazy. Similar thing happened to me. Solidarity, Sis 💙 You're better off without them. You're definitely better off without her.
@@yumayae8514 There are people out there who specifically prey on people with mental ilnesses, because they hope they are mentally weak, so they can feel supperior to them. Honestly that girl sounds like a narcicist. Trying to get rid of your support system (friends and family) is one of the things a narcicist would do. Mabye it helps you too, to watch some videos about narssicistic abuse, to try to understand what happened to you.
Have I ever watched this show?
No.
Will I still watch this whole video?
Yes.
Same
Yep.
Same
i had to stop watching after season 2 but continue to watch videos like these lmao.
other way around :p
The big, gigantic thing, is that 13 Reasons Why ignored mental health professionals. They said for them to not do certain things (I.e. the suicide scene and the rape scenes) and they deliberately went against them. That’s the issue. The issue is the blatant ignorance in the production of the show and the way they went about things. Selena Gomez and anyone involved should be held accountable for that. The fact that they also changed the way she killed herself also, in my opinion, shows that they didn’t want to show the consequences, they wanted to show “the drama”.
I love how every coming of age series or move is about drugs, sex, partying. This was supposed to be a series to spread the awareness of suicide and how to prevent it. All this did was show a girl who desperately wanted to fit in, and when she couldn't she blamed everyone for why she killed herself. 😴
That was an incredibly debased way of describing a 4 season tv series.
If you watched any of it you clearly didn't comprehend much.
You guys remember the movie The Perks of Being a Wallflower? That movie had themes of depression, sexuality, toxic masculinity, suicide, and rape. And it managed to be get a message across in 2 hours. While this show continues to speak with it's foot in it's mouth and Netflix proceeds to milk it for controversy. Fuck this show. If you want a sappy teen movie with some heartfelt moments that is capable of "starting a conversation" just go watch that movie. It will save you over 40 hours of torment.
I've never seen the movie, but the book changed my worldview on a lot of things.
Charlie was such a chad
Wow I was supposed to read that for school, but I can't because quarantine. Now after seeing this comment, I might consider reading it.
@@Crunchycrunkybro I listened to the audiobook in almost one day. It was only 6 hours, I think, and I enjoyed it a lot!
@@Crunchycrunkybro the book is amazing and very relatable
The part about her mom being the best at showing emotions? That's because she is an amazing actress who gives more than half of a shit about her role. Kate Walsh puts her heart into her roles always.
Yeah, best acting by far
Yep Kate Walsh! 💕
Love that woman so much! Brilliant in Grey’s too
_idekanymore dude fr and weirdly enough Clay was in a season too
holy shit, yes! she was fantastic in all of her scenes. the scene where she finds hannah dead in the bath broke my heart. it was the only scene in season 1 that actually moved me to tears.
i picked this book up in my middle school library way before any show was made, and i was able to tell within 10 pages what a load of exploitative revenge-porn predatory bullshit it was. I was not a particularly savvy 12 year old, either. When the show got made Any relatives or loved ones I had who watched or defended it got all of my vitriol. I've struggled with depression for a decade now, and nearly lost some of the most important people in my life to it as well. It's not your fucking cash cow to milk, netflix.
Also fun fact, in like, season 2 i believe? they said they brought on real mental health experts to advise them on writing realistically .... and then ignored them :)
This book was one of the only one's that everyone in my novels class hated including me.
it's actually surprising that the shitty book has better writing than the show
@@elizabethsmith7224 They made you read this shit for school?
That book was actually a huge source of comfort for me as someone who struggled with suicidal thoughts. I felt like there was someone who understood the way I felt.
If you read the ending you'd know clay thinks about how all this could have been prevented if hanna took any of the help offered to her by the people around her, it wasn't framing her suicide as a good thing and the tapes were clearly bad too.
@@jyjaeskzthere were more people willing to help her in the book instead of just taking advantage of her in the TV series?
I was diagnosed with clinical depression when I was 12 and when this show came out my mom watched it thinking that she would learn more about how to help me (god bless my mom) but she was horrified that this show made the illness I suffer from look like something trendy and badass.
Homie, I like your mom. I've been diagnosed with depression for the last like, three years. I lost count tbh. Doc has said that based on what I've been brave enough to share, I've likely had it wayyy longer. My mom has done all she can to help me too. Finding new ways to help me as much as she can with other problems as well, medical and mental. I wasn't diagnosed yet when the show came out, but I kinda already knew something was up with myself. That I should get help.
When it dropped, my school banned us from watching it or encouraging watching it. And when I said I'd heard about 13 reasons, my mom looked visibly frightened. Only to relax when I said we were told not to watch it and I'd heard the basis of what it was about from someone who did with her own parents. And that yeah, no interest.
God Bless good Mommas.
The quote, “because in high school, everyone’s watching you all the time.” Boiled my blood. I don’t know what highschool this is but in a normal high school, everyone’s too concerned about themselves to care about you at least on a superficial level. Unless you do something REALLY weird or outlandish no one will remember or care. And that feeling that everyone is watching you, all the time, is definitely not a healthy mindset nor one that should be promoted.
Right? I'm a senior myself and the main lesson I learned in high school is that everyone has their own problems to worry about. They don't care about mine.
Lathliss Elara I agree because having a paranoid like mentality can be a massive hindrance to you at high school because your bound to be distrustful of people and many different factors and even if you are a loner at high school, there’s gonna be moments where either people need your help or vice versa.
High school can be a terrible place for a small amount of individuals and I hope they're not watching this misleading and harmful show. There's gossip and drama but most people move on from it and you're old news before the weekend. Still, I totally get what you mean.
As someone who has social anxiety that mindset is already flowing through my mind and to have that be confirmed by a TV show would not help my social anxiety
@@Vanessa-xx3yz Yeah, right? Like, the other day, my friend was talking about somebody, and when I asked who he was, she said "oh, you know, the amputee with the foot fetish". I still had no clue who that was, so I asked around, and apparently a student at my school was an amputee with a known foot fetish, and I had made it to senior year without knowing any of this.
Inside Out is a fantastic movie that a lot of child therapists use as a tool to help children identify their emotions, we need more shows and movies like that :)
Mallory Phillips
ugh that'll always be a classic to me. when i watch it it's the only time i enjoy my name being riley lol
I agree but I still think there needs to be one more directed at teens as they are the biggest liability when it comes to mental illness. There is middle schoolers 1000s of them killing themselves every year and millions more thinking about it and inside out doesn't dive into the more serious discussion of this topic
@@ley8443 brother you name is clearly fancy feast
I mean thats a good way of looking at that movie
I still hate it
lubricated sphincter
hahah, good point. planning to change my profile aesthetic some other day.
Yo, psych student here to talk about the medical side of Alex's recovery. We learned about a similar case of survival in class with one Phineas Gage, who lost part of his frontal lobe in a rail working accident.
The frontal lobe is in charge of dictating opinions, decisions, and empathy, and helps make people who they are. When Gage lost part of his frontal lobe, he became a bitter man with little empathy. And I believe that this would be a similar situation with Alex in the show. He wouldn't have memory loss though, since for that to happen, he would need significant damage to the hippocampus (which is hidden behind the frontal lobe). His partial paralysis would also not be impeded, since the part of the brain that controls motor functions is in the back. However, his emotional outbursts would definitely make sense, along with any lapses in judgment or uncharacteristic behaviour.
Edit: On the note of Clay and the Hannah apparition, although ghosts wouldn't make sense in the context of the show, clay having schizophrenia would be a very slim chance. While younger people can have schizophrenia, it's uncommon for symptoms to show before they're in their 20's. Not to say it never happens, but it isn't exactly the norm for the disordsr. Also, it's kinda sus that Clay only starts hallucinating after Hannah dies. And as far as I know, schizophrenia is a neurotype much like adhd is.
Edit 2: I got some stuff about schizophrenia wrong, so thank you to the person who corrected me for telling me /gen
Schizophrenia can develop at any age, typically it’s diagnosed between 15 - 25 for men and 20 - 30 for women. Although diagnosis outside of 12 - 40 are rare even they can occur, there’s not set age to start noticing symptoms it just starts when it feels like.
Don't just say that he had a rail accident. He was shot through the head by a meter long iron bar, it passed through his brain, landed over two dozen meters away, went to a doctor and had some of his brain slip out during the examination. At least he survived though
i was a psych student too! but people who are schizophrenic usually start showing showing signs mid adolescence and more strongly around their 20s .
also depending on how alex shot himself it could’ve gone through the temporal lobe and then to the hippocampus but he would’ve had to shot himself at a straight but down angle and apparently he flinched so yeah i doubt he hit his hippocampus
Definitely they don't "only really develop after age 24". I have a sister who started showing signs at 9, but my religious family thought she was possessed so she didn't get diagnosed until 21. She herself believes she's possessed to this day and she's been talking to/hearing/feeling/seeing this demon since she was 9.
I’m not annoyed at the fact that Hannah is painted somewhat cowardly and not perfect, I’m annoyed that they still tried to make her seem like a hero who was completely justified in her entire revenge plot and suicide, because that is so dangerous and irresponsible. Basically I’m just saying that at least from my perspective, the poor characterization of the characters on the tapes and Hannah do more harm than good.
Season 4 be like: It's okay if you did something horrible, someone will cover your ass or just say you're gay and you'll get a happy ending.
Not related, but I live for your pfp, Tokoyami is my ultimate comfort character 🥰
@@eyescreamdelgado Revelry in the Dark :D
@@willfanofmanyii3751 best Birb
@@lunar21moon94 :D
Love your pfp
If there's 3 seasons doesn't that mean there's 39 reasons why
If the last season has 13 episodes, ill watch it, but hate myself for spending 13 worthless hours watching it
Ironically, the more seasons there is, the less reason there is.
In fact, if they really do 13 seasons, they will be just 0 reason but one, shitty writing so bad Hannah just give up and is rapidly ceasing to exist!
@@chongjunxiang3002 oh wow, has this been an onision book turned into a show this entire time?
If it goes 4 seasons it's 52 reasons
The fifty-second reason to die is for Darkseid!
@@raiden-mei The more shows goes on, the more it sounds like Onision fantasy, now it looks like "that is why i hate you" style of plots.
Ah, a collaboration between TRO and IHE. Truly a match made in England.
"We still have next season to deal with the sexual tension between Clay and Justin"
*Season 4 kills off Justin*
There wasn’t sexual tension between them…
@@Kayedies I'm not saying that there it, it's a repeated joke in the video, you nonce. Hence the quotation marks. Didn't tip you off?
@@Kayedieswomp womp
The series went from mental illness and suicide awareness to a very poorly made teen drama
S1: suicide, the tapes, outcome
S2: trial and revenge
-to-
S3: a murder case...?
i was so confused. it went from suicide awareness to finding out who killed bryce.
That tried to redeem a serial rapist. Way to go 13RW.
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios I think they tried to flesh him out after two seasons of the mustache twirling villainy. When I saw the tag line "Who killed bryce?" I honestly didn't give a shit and no amount of "uwu he's human too" makes his horrible actions and their consequences any less potent and his own actions caused his death. Karma killed bryce and they milked 13 episodes out of it.
Also somehow a horror show in season four. This fucking blows.
Lana Joy Um... what? I’m sorry, WHAT?!
"You don't want to give people any reasons why, let alone thirteen"
Best message ever in the topic of su*cide tbh. It is already better than the whole series.
what word did you censor
On one hand, yes, you should stop encouraging and validating morons who want to off themselves over worthless "problems", but it's still interesting, the actual reasons and comparative mental strength of people who do off themselves
Eugene InLaw morons and worthless problems? peculiar wording
@@mercurialmess7733 English isn't my native language
Eugene InLaw it was more so the wording being offensive as it describes some suicidal people as morons who try to kill themselves because of what you describe as “worthless problems”
i watched the first season when it came out and at the time, i was suicidal. in a lot of ways, it helped me and made my feelings feel valid. but, on the other hand, looking back now, it was extremely damaging too. it romanticised how i was feeling and made me feel like people would care once i was dead which speaks for itself as to how damaging that was. the worst issue with 13rw is how disrespectful it was to make it into a murder mystery after the first season as a cheap money grab
Generally when people commit suicide it's more of an impulse and not so meticulously planned out to the point where you 13 record tapes about why you killed yourself and create a whole plan on how those tapes will be released. Which is one of the many things I found wrong with this show to the point where I only got half way through season 1.
The most planning I had is thinking to buy a rope.
isn't it literally the opposite
It's not always the case. Though I've never done this exactly, I have written notes to people I love ahead of time and a few times I've given my things away to people I wanted to have them. There was one point I was doing research, made a will, and working over time saving up to pay for my own funeral Costs so that my family wouldn't have to worry or think about any of that.
As someone who actually tried to commit suicide, I can think of no worse target audience for a show like this than people with suicidal tendencies.
I went to cut myself after watching that scene, it gave me an insane urge to do it too. good thing they removed that scene from Netflix a while back
Lana Joy glad to see your doing better fam
@@theonlylucyliu Don't blame the scene, if you were going to do something, you were going to do it anyway. Censorship doesn't help anyone. Sorry, but I nearly died to suicide and we don't need censorship, we need reality.
@@alyssaaurora369 I agree people must know that this is a real thing and they have to see it but for some people it really is triggering, not everyone is okay with seeing this, if it weren't for the scene I probably wouldn't have gone cutting myself at that moment
@@theonlylucyliu as a former cutter, you're going to do it with or without that scene. Sorry, but as a rape victim i still don't believe in removing rape scenes. People need to see the horror and impact they cause and they leave behind with their actions.
Yep, this series is disgusting. My best friend killed himself I was always there for him, I never blamed myself. I watched this and came out believing that I was to blame for not being there for him on that day he decided to blow his brains out.
From the tone of your comment that the series was disgusting (yes) I think you realize it wasn't your fault. But I just want to offer sympathy and love, I hope you know it wasn't. Good on you for being there every other day, you had no control and you offered all you could, and I hope you can be okay. Sending love.
I just wanna say I'm sorry for your loss. You did your best and you're not to blame.
Fuck this series.
I'm so sorry for your loss mate, you did what you could to be there for him as much as possible. I agree this series is horrifyingly disgusting.
Aimi Aimi I'm sincerely sorry for your loss. It must have been terrible and I'm glad you know that your not at fault at all.
Dude. I have no words. No one should ever watched this show thinking that something as tragic as that is you fault. I highly recommend Bojack Horseman.
Hannah Baker: You're all complicit in my suicide!!! Except you, Eddie. This is for you.
*Leaves him a pogo-stick*
I genuinely do not understand how this show was made for “people that may be struggling”. As someone who has struggled with very similar issues to Hannah (the whole moving to a new area during highschool, sexual assault, experimenting sexuality and depression), and this show only triggered me and made me very, very uncomfortable, but as a 15 year old watching this show, I felt like I couldn’t look away. I was looking for a reason, and this show presented to me more reasons than I needed. Obviously it’s almost 2022 now so as a 20 year old this show didn’t give me reason enough, but even reflecting now as an adult with more critical thinking this show gives me so much discomfort. Suicide is one individuals choice. Other people’s actions may influence it, but the whole implication that a suicide can be justified is a very, very harmful narrative to portray
Yeah I was in a similar Place as yours (thought in middle school) and for a bit I actually thought about taking Revenge (but not suicide)... Then I realized It wasn't worth It and preferred going on with my Life and forgive myself. I've personale always thought that if they have a conscience at some point they'll feel bad for what they did, if the don't have It there Is no revenge that Will make them understand their mistakes...
I love the irony how Hannah says 'you don't know what's happening in other people's lives and what your actions might result in' (or something along those lines) and then still proceeds to send 13 people tapes full of 'YoU'rE rEsPoNsIbLe FoR wHaT i DiD'
chocoboasylum the hypocrisy jumped out
IKR what a bitch
When she speaks with the school counsellor to talk about Bryce, she ends up getting uncomfortable and leaving which is understandable. But what didn't make sense is that she ended up making a tape on the counsellor, blaming him for not helping her, when she chose not to tell him what happened, not even just the name of the person who assaulted her. He couldn't be blamed for not knowing what happened. Maybe he can be blamed for not doing enough, but there was not much he could do for Hannah.
She also went into the conversation secretly recording it, proving that she was there to get another tape, not to get help.
Paco Ramirez I don’t think the sole reason for her recording was cuz she just wanted another tape, and not help, but that she was like 80% sure that she wasn’t going to get the help. So she wanted help, but the mindset that she wasn’t going to get it before even trying influenced her reactions to what mr porter said. Her pessimistic attitude ( something developed as a result of her environment and circumstances) got in the way of attempt to get help. While she subconsciously victimized herself, I don’t believe she was walking into his office thinking “ this’ll be the perfect end to my suicide tapes”. But I can see how damaging it is to have her bring the tape in, which can push the narrative that she was just doing it for another tape
As somebody who is almost finished studying psychology I learned that you need to work with what you're given. You cannot force patients to tell you stuff if they don't want to because that could lead to conflict and it will turn therapy sessions into an unsave environment (because you are being forced). Also trauma is complex and in a lot of cases people wait to open up because, after being in a dangerous situation, they want to feel safe and comfortable (e.g. their home, living their daily lives like they normally would) and forcing them during that time period can lead to even worse distress. The counsellor did well in a way that he switched lanes in his approach: instead of trying to figure out what happened and who did it he talked about moving on, which was literally the only thing he could do. If a patient says they don't want a certain therapy then you need to accept that as a health care worker and find something that would work. And even more, when people deny help you cannot force them to (except in very severe cases in which patients get taken to a mental facility/hospital by force). I don't remember the whole scene well enough, but he could've motivated her to come again, reassuring that she doesn't need to drop a name but that he can help her move on and they can together figure out a plan on how to.
Maybe the only thing he could've done was informing the parents she got raped (they didn't know, right?). But then again, you know she wouldn't have any trust left for the counsellor. I don't know USA rules regarding 16 y/o, but here in my country they are still under custody of their parents, yet, as a mental health worker you still have the duty of confidentiality
which means you cannot tell everything to their parents. So yeah, he didn't do much wrong in my eyes. Also suicide is very hard to predict, and it would be harsh to blame people for not spotting and preventing it
@@donghyucksmom2413 as a psychotherapist with more than a decade of clinical experience (and a specialization in sexual trauma), I can say that the counselor was extremely premature in shifting the focus to "moving on." He failed her by getting caught up in fact finding and attempting to set the course for the therapeutic process during their first meeting instead of creating an environment for her to begin her healing on her terms. He didn't know Hannah, yet he seemed to have instantly made up his mind about what needed to be "fixed" and how it needed to be done. No matter what method of therapy a clinician practices, the primary contributor to successful treatment is the quality of the therapeutic relationship. You can't build that relationship if you are unable or unwilling to meet the client where they are at and move at their pace. He needed to listen to Hannah, ask her what she needed (knowing full well that she might not have the answer to that just yet), and take it from there.
Honestly I was suprised there wasnt a plot twist that Hannah was actually a sociopath that wanted to make others suffer by ending it and making those tapes to ruin other people's lives
so pretty much everyones a terrible person in this show and it irritates me to see how high and mighty hannah is presented in this show for recording these tapes.
They could have made a historical drama called "95 Reasons Why" but NO, they had to mock mental illness.
I read the book in middle school and was perfectly fine with the content inside of it, but I was in a rather dark place when I watched the first season and was definitely..influenced by it’s glorification of suicide. I also don’t understand why they continued creating more seasons. The main character is dead and they fulfilled the original plot with the first season. They’re just going to keep killing dead birds with each and every season they make.
I honestly think that the book was okay. It didn’t really glorify suicide considering that it was never painted in a certain light. The book never tried to be anything more than it actually was, a book about a guy listening to tapes.
krista calai What aspects of the show made you feel like they were glorifying suicide?
Julius Weiss the way that Hannah was exacting justice against all the people who “wronged” her and was able to make the people she believed were responsible for her suicide suffer in return
I was also going through the peak of my depression, and the show just made me have panic attacks and go even lower than I already was. it's not a good show. it's not a helpful show. it's shit.
I want to watch this show so I can rightfully judge it like most people that are against it but I know that watching the show might make me feel like shit. I'm not in the greatest place right now so I'll wait.
They got a genuine laugh out of me with the “Bryce, the rapist?” “Alleged rapist*” “Shut up Courtney” scene
You wanna know what that reminded me of?
"do you ever SHUT THE FUCK UP!? They're just kids."
the show is meant to help teens with mental health, but it somehow manages to be more of a comedy drama
YESS
lmao whenever they'd tell her to to shut up it would be hilarious
Actually he said, “Fuck off, Courtney.” And rightfully so. She was always such a bitch.
I just really don’t like the fact that these tapes immortalize her and now everyone is OBSESSED with her (in the show) and wants to know more about it. Like she’s such a cool mysterious girl now that she died, they just glamorized suicide in my opinion
One thing that really pisses me off with that particular scene with Tyler is that there was a kid in my town who had went through an attack just like that, by football jocks, albeit with a screwdriver. It just... It really shows that they don't give a crap about the seriousness of the situations, that do happen in real life, they only care about the melodrama it causes like its some damn soap opera.
I really hated how they villainised the school counselor for the advice he gave Hannah. I don't understand what he was expected to do. If someone comes to you saying that they have been sexually assaulted and tell you that they don't want you to know who it was and they don't want to press charges then the only logical next step is to help them heal, which is what "moving on" generally entails. He wasn't telling her to forget about it or blowing it off as something that didn't matter. He was giving the advice that he could. I myself have been given the same advice. It's well within your rights to press charges, you don't want to? No worries, let's focus on healing you instead then so that you can move on with your life and not let it destroy you.
How is something expected to be done if she wasn't willing to give any details? What were the police going to do, read her mind and arrest who did it?
Antonio Sarosi right these plotpoint really pissed me off like what the fuck was he supposed to do bruh
He’s my favourite character and they did him so dirty. Healthcare workers are people too and can deeply get traumatised from their jobs. One way to do his impossible position service would be to watch his councillor’s investigation after assaulting a student (grabbing Bryce by the throat).
It could show how most sex offenders don’t have proper help available (Bryce couldn’t work through his problems with the school councillor unlike every other student, pushing him to be more emotionally isolated and self-relying), while also showing his emotional problems after Hannah’s suicide and how it wasn’t his fault. It could teach vulnerable watchers what to expect and how his talking to Hannah wasn’t another dead end for healing the way the show pretended it was. Such an arrogant way for a writer to deal with very real and common problems.
i hated that too. In the novel, she wasn't really raped. She let Bryce do his thing as self-destructive behaviour to push her deeper into her depression. It wasnt just plain rape (still morally gray since she didnt want it but she didnt let Bryce know she didnt want it because she wanted to self-destruction of it). So I kinda can understand her frustration that the Councelor is only focussing on the "rape" thing and doesnt let her speak about the other stuff that is in her head. But in the series SHE WAS RAPED and he offered her help and support on it and she refused. He really did all that he could in the series, while in the novel he just kinda wanted to brush it off (but I still dont think he deserved a tape in the book either because she still could've told him whats really going on and not just run out)
@@Lee-ss8yj not really, I read the book, that was definitely rape. Many women do stop moving and just let it go while being raped to not provoke the rapist into violence. Actually, it was the same in the series. They know they're not gonna be able to fight the rapist off. In her monologue it was clear she was absolutely not consenting. It was very clearly rape and I don't understand how you thought it was "morally grey".
"everyone's watching you all the time"
me, who wouldn't recognize half the kids in my grade if put in a lineup: HUH?
Yeah, that's a delusion if I ever saw one. You have to be a colossal freak or do something monumental to be the center of so much attention.
When I was in highschool not even the kid who chased another kid around the school with a hatchet, screaming bloody murder, got more than passing attention. A couple days later nobody even cared.
In psychology I learned that teenagers feel judges very easily, as if people would check every move they make and definitely when they fail/embaress themselves. Of course there's variation in this feeling between different persons, but during puberty you're more prone to others opinions. When I was a teen I sometimes had this feeling, however I knew chances were low other people were watching me when passing by (because I knew myself I wasn't that focused on others, kinda like you are saying). So, in reality, chances are very low that everyone would ever stare at you entering a school hallway but it may sometimes feel like that to certain teens
@@Soridan Excuse me what the heck
@@nzack7888 Welcome to Eastern Europe, our gypsies roll like this. Enjoy your stay and don't flash your cash.
(To be fair, his emotional rampages aside he was a nice kid. Dumb as a bag of bricks but didn't have an ounce of malice in him.)
i go to school with 3000 kids and i honestly think i could point out almost every single one of them T0T except the freshies but yeah man i guess "someone's watching you all the time" i am that someone
One thing about this show thats so unrealistic is that the people who were out to get her were upset that she committed suicide. Irl, high school bullies dont care. They see suicide as a win. Its not going to rock the entire school and devastate everyone. The only people who’ll be affected are friends and family. The random girls who act dramatic over it fake it to look good. That’s how it really plays out, as someone who’s been to school where 3 suicides happened in the 4 years i was there. This show romanticizes not just suicide, but also a revenge that will not happen.
Sadly true. No one learned anything from Etikas death & no one admits to their involvement in it.
Not a show, but OMORI deals with themes of depression, grief, change and suicidal thoughts amazingly. It’s really art
I will never understand how a large team under a huge company with tons of funding will manage to bungle what a few indie devs with some Kickstarter money and a dream do wonderfully
@@pingu4938 if too many people work on such a personal project the original vision gets muddled, a small team is better for that sorta stuff
I believe the whole “we wanted to start a conversation” is bullshit. They wanted to make a melodramatic teenage show romanticizing suicide for financial gain and needed an excuse when people figured it out. They had so many options and resources to make an actual informative/helpful show, and they missed all their chances. I watched some episodes of this show back when I was severely depressed and suicidal, because i was curious. After watching i was so angry. Suicide is not romantic. Suicide for revenge does not work, because when you commit suicide you’re DEAD. You cannot see the people left alive, you cannot communicate with them. Suicide is final. God I hate this show. Depression and suicide are not pretty.
And they are not to be used to make money!!!
Fr, if the conversation thing was real, they should have made it obvious, instead the whole show just kinda slowly drifts away from time to time about mental health to the mess of what even is happening
I totally totally agree. I hope you're doing well!
To be fair they probably did want to start a 'conversation'. However their idea of a 'conversation' is just as mentally eff'ed up as the mental health of the people they are putting on the show. They are Hollywood types and starting a 'conversation' and making money is some what the same thing. Their idea of what a conversation is is also a problem in that it's more of a sit down shut the eff up and listen to what we have to say even though they don't know sh*t about what they are talking about. Like I said they are just as mentally ill as the characters on the show. They are just as much bullies as the worst characters on the show.
I hope you are doing better now. I wouldn't want you to let the Hollywood BS effect your life. They simply aren't worth it.
The first season of this show had a lot of intensity and it definitely entertained a lot of people. But deep down, this isn't about a discussion. It's entertainment. And we as a society aren't ready to accept that it's entertaining to some people.
There's a scene in this show where a dude gets beat up in a bathroom and sodomized with a mop???
I thought this show took place in high school, not prison.
Lestov16 I physically threw up after watching this from how fucked up and unnecessary it was. Like it’s fucking HIGH SCHOOL.
That was exactly my thought process like… wtf?
I think the writers have been in prison. For what, that remains to be seen.
It may sound outrageous but this happened to someone I knew at school, I had completely forgotten about it until now, my school was a pretty shit one in the UK though, so there is quite a big cultural difference.
Robbie King I’m sorry to break it to you dude but you went to jail not school you got your education from jail
WARNING: SENSITIVE SUBJECTS
I finished the first season pretty quick, as a young girl who was dealing with mental health issues and not getting the help or attention I needed with a rough family life. I felt I was connected with the show. That they were making light of how hard it can be. I disagreed with how a lot of it was portrayed but the idea kind of made me feel less alone. I had tried to go through with suicide but I was stopped by knocking on the bathroom door and my concerned little sister telling me she loved me and wanted to cuddle. I couldn’t leave them with my mom and stepdad alone. My siblings deserved better. Again that’s why I sort of felt connected with the first season. But I couldn’t watch the other seasons, they were so off track of what I thought they would be and what they originally stated they would be. To conclude this comment I will first say I agree with your insight and informative facts/opinions. Second I’d like to make it known I have gotten the help I needed and have been on the road of creating healthy coping mechanisms along with not giving up. Thank you Tro for your videos. You provide information, evidence, insight, and sprinkles of comedy. Your videos are well made from both you and your editors. You are an amazing creator and I enjoy watching your content.
Imo, the show's most problematic topic or the way Hannah was written was that she did it out of revenge. As someone who watched the show when I was in a very dark place, it just made me want to do things like that; write/record last messages and leave them for people who hurt me emotionally, rather than *actually* talking to them.
In season 4 Clay gives into his despair and seals himself and all of his classmates inside the school and forces them to play a killing game in order to be set free.
Danganronpa?
I almost expect him to dress in Hannah’s clothes and go on a killing spree
Belko Experiment?
MonoClayma
He holds class trials for those who murder each other and all the evidence is in tape form
You know when I was in highschool a kid in my class killed himself he never got a goodbye a assembly or even a gone to soon in the year book and I still think from time to time how dirty the school did him It gets me strangely mad at the entire place and I never even was close to the guy
That's horrible. RIP to that guy I hope his family gave him a good send off
happened to my yearbook too. the school acted like there is nothing wrong. i just know the girl through same biology class and say hello but i'm mad as hell when i know that no one take it seriously or just give the girl past resoect
At work one of my friends killed themselves and they didn't close when they heard and wanted everyone to go back to work the next day as if nothing had happened. We all refused so they were forced to give us the weekend off, I had to call in to my other job and not go in because I couldn't keep it together long enough to work... And then corona happened. Its been a rough year.
tbh if i were to kill myself then i wouldn't want people to dwell on it. i know it would be impossible for everyone to just pretend like nothing happened but that is just what i would want personally. people don't kill themselves for attention so why would they want for everyone to mourn them after they are dead? i think moving on is the best way but hey, that's just me i guess.
Reminds me a bit of my school when a popular kid died from a car wreck (not a collision he crashed into a ditch on his own) the school made stickers and merch to sell to kids at school. I wasn't super close to him but we were pals enough but all of the other kids in the school ate that shit up and let the school milk his death for money and then when a kid in a wheelchair that wasn't popular died. The school just made an announcement. The school also continues making merch for the popular kids death to this day(4 years later)
My biggest issue with Hannah as a character arch is that half of those tapes issues couldve been solved with Hannah simply allowing time to pass or confronting people. The series could've used this as a plot point that sometimes victims of suicide tend to think in the hear and now rather than the possibilities of the future, and sometimes do this act for immediate results on impulse. Rumors from HS dont matter after you graduate, someone not giving you a "compliment" (at least by seasons 1 standard not their retcon season 2 explanation) or "minor affection" could just be you not being that persons type. Its not like she wasn't considered "desirable" either because in her time at school she had AT LEAST 3 romantic interest.
Hannah: CLAY GO AWAY!!
Clay: *goes away*
Hannah: *suprised pikachu face*
The fact that the book has Hannah kill herself with pills, but Netflix went out of their way to have an entire scene dedicated to a very detailed glorification of a gory death makes my blood boil. I can take any sort of gore, the sight of self harm- but NOT the glorification of it in such detail: That scene made me so uncomfortable for months afterwards, all so they could have people take Hannah seriously. Its disgusting.
little edit: just because you have warnings, doesnt mean people arent going to watch something. when you market yourself to teenagers with mental illness, youre going to get teenagers with mental illness watching. when you dont really give a heads up as to the entirety of what will be exposing, people assume they can handle it. The issue is that the scene is incredibly triggering, marketed to young adults, and is needlessly gory. Once people see it, you cant just reverse it. When you market to an audience that doesn’t necessarily know their limits, you cant handle yourself so carelessly. You are directly impacting such a fragile demographic, and acting as if youre advocates, so perpetuating the stereotypes and stigma that already surrounds depression is really fucking dangerous and irresponsible imo
honeybees r cool I agree
I disagree. They did it that way to do the opposite of glorify it. To show how painful it was as you sit there uncomfortably watching Hannah suffer as she slowly loses blood. It's meant to be uncomfortable and meant to show that there's nothing cool or pretty about suicide. And the scene afterwards with her parents finding her was the most amazing scene of the show imo. Truly shows the devastation caused by suicide. Amazing acting by both actors (the mother and father) in that scene.
That scene didnt do that and was actually one of the few scenes that reallu worked in S1. It showed how horryfing suicide can really be. So no, it was in no way glorification of suicide, quite the opposite actually.
Wait... she kills herself with PILLS in the novel?
That makes that scene 1000x worse.
@@joshkaid Yep. I read the novel because I wanted to see if the Netflix original was just shit at embodying the source material (essentially just hoping that the book wasn't as shit as the show), but yeah. Hannah is the same in the book and the show- but the show made the conscious decision to make that scene and still parade around saying that they were mental health advocates (along with marketing themselves to troubled teens). It still took them a couple solid months to edit out the full original scene, too. I dont know how anybody could call themselves mental health advocates if they dont know that scenes/imagery/media that that can be potentially triggering, as much as i hate to use that word.
13 Reasons Why season 4: Hannah returns from the dead and wants revenge.
MetalMagic 18 now THAT would be a good idea
No. It was all a dream of Hannah. She saw future.
Friday the 13th reason why.
Then still manages to put the blame on someone else.
"hey guys so im alive again, but im still mad at yall so im gonna kill myself in front of you this time just to really make sure you'll forever feel guilty and I'll be made into a strong brave character even though i fucking suck uwu" sorry got distracted
When IHE started talking, I was shocked with the realization that I haven't watched his videos in sooo long! What happened? I used to watch them all the time! Glad you two are partnering up!
it's a good thing that this came out after I was out of school, which was when I would have been most vulnerable to this. I can't say definitively that I *would* have attempted a copycat aliven't, but the thought of naming and shaming people I could blame for doing that to myself was already a dangerous fantasy I'd had back then.
My biggest issues with the series are:
-the lack of personal responsibility laid on Hannah for her death.
-The glamorizing of suicide and its portrayal as an effective means of revenge to a potentially vulnerable audience
This show was made as entertainment first and to make a 'statement' second, and for it to claim otherwise is nothing short of damaging.
Season 3 ends with someone committing murder...and thier response on how to deal with it is;
"We're survivors" I'm sorry...The Fuck?
Let’s not forget about how high school was portrayed in this show. Like everyone was out to get each other or gang up on one person.
Yeah... they PROBABLY should’ve been a bit more aware of who exactly was watching the show. Like, there’s a thing called a trigger, and this show is a suicidal one.
In the book hannah is a terrible human being who pretty much ends up deserving everything that happened to her, the show tries so hard to humanize her when there is literally nothing likable or redeemable about her.
As horrible as this show is the whole "glamorizing suicide" complaint is honestly horrible. It "glamorizes suicide" as much as video games "glamorize violence" or "glamorize the objectification of women."
We weren’t allowed to talk about this show in mental hospitals lol shows how much of a conversation it can start
mental hospitals just suck but so does this show lmao.
Closed ones ye, since you just sit around with a few people that 24/7 talk about depressing things, self harm etc.
But there are good people I've met there to.
For therapy, open stations are the best, since you actually can get therapy (in closed ones you have barely any, it is just to protect you , or others from yourself).
@@jasonvorhees1795 I think that closed facilities do a terrible job of keeping ideation at bay by trying to close you off from talking about it, like a child at an adult's table
@@jordo641 I mean, they got a point.
I have been for 2 1/2 years in psychiatrys so I got to know a few.
Blocking out a subject prevents people from talking about it non-stop, like suicide.
Especially in this setting, where people maybe got their own attempts, or plans, it would be bad to have them talk about it, so they maybe encourage others to do it.
Having said this, it is barely enforced or followed by patients.
We had another rule 'Don't talk about your diagnose'...guess what everyone asked the second you arrived?
Jordo depends on which one you go to I guess. I liked the ones I stayed at besides my first one
The only person responsible for Hannah's suicide is Hannah. I have struggled with suicidal thoughts most of my life and affirming Hannah's delusion that these people "killed" her is dangerous stuff. Were they responsible for doing bad things? Yes, each of them had a sin to bear. But the choice to self-murder was Hannah's alone to make. As someone who struggles, I sympathize with any suicide victim out there, I don't think these people are bad - they are desperate and sick and need help. But that decision is theirs.
Eh. I feel fully justified in blaming Bryce and his cronies, just saying. But I get what you mean.
Yeah, I agree. I was once somehow in her situation (sexual abuse and bullying) and suicide never crossed my mind. I actually read that usually you have to suffer some kind of mental condition to have suicidal thoughts (but I could be wrong on this)
@@francescamazzonelli1670 The thing is, it has been proven and even told to me by my therapists/psychiatrist that every human has considered suicide AT LEAST once in their life.
@@niallsburrito Yes but probably like "I could do It... Well whatever tomorrow Is another day"
Yes! Everyone is responsible for their own actions.