The Controversial Queer FanFic That Shut Down AO3
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2023
- The story of how the Untamed actor Xiao Zhan shut down AO3 - or did he? Let's talk parasocial relationships, the Chinese fan economy, and queer censorship. Thank you to Ritual for Sponsoring this video. Get 30% OFF your first month at ritual.com/rowanellis30
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I was most interested in the financial aspects of fandom - that financially supporting a creator/idol is part of the proof of your fandom. That some fan circles criticize their own members for lack of this financial proof. It can also create a slightly stronger social connection - creators will often thank fans by name if they financially contribute on streams, or post their names at the end of CZcams videos, or invite them into an inner circle like a discord community. So there are tangible social rewards for financial participation. This video also made me realize how little CZcams creators have connected with major brands for sponsorship. Why are my favorite CZcamsrs sponsored by Raid Shadow Legends and not Coca-Cola? It seems like an untapped marketing resource here in the US.
This is the questions couples lgbts existed in real life but straight people fetichizing this is end for equal existence because lgbts live don't those fanfics
Thank you for covering queer censorship in China. The most frustrating side about it is not even the government is trying to suppress free speech (they do it anyway), but that ordinary citizens do not value it and consistently report their 'enemies' to the official, making use of the governmental censorship to get rid of people they don't like. In fact, if unrestrained governmental interference with contend production were tolerated, everyone would get hurt.
Yeah, that in particular seemed very cynical.
Reminded me of the panopticon. Michel Foucault described it as a prison in which you can always be seen. You don‘t actually know if you are seen - just that you could be. So you learn to behave as if you always would. That is how order in modern society/ies work - specifically france, but applicable to a lot of the west I guess. And maybe also china…
Thats pretty typical,and notunlike the witchhunts, and pretty any suveilancestate , iknow it as stasi and destroying trust,butitssadly universal, oh an keeping families practically hostage and probably lovers seems too.
@@maxisgorgeous4008 Thats a feature, not a bug. If youdestroy any trust in people among each other, by that , easier tocontrol. And that anyone could calloanyone for any reason really, is doing that as intended. Oh and literally 1984,literally the plot.
America is literally doing the same thing with book bans and abortion. The right claims they hate China but they sure do love the Chinese governments tactics huh.
It's white terror at its finest. Get the people to turn on each other, and they won't unite against the government that oppresses them.
Can we also appreciate the effort Rowan made in pronouncing the chinese words correctly? That's refreshing.
MASSIVE thank you to my wonderful friend Tazmyn for sending me about 20 voicenotes on whatsapp with the correct pronunciations!
@@HeyRowanEllis I would use "standard pronunciation". There is no "correct pronunciation" because there are lots of different pronunciations/readings based on regional dialect and traditional literary reading. Everyone's pronunciation is "correct". But there is only 1 standard pronunciation that is taught in textbooks, and everyone tries to use for shared communication.
@@kiwifruitkl I meant more that it was one of any of the possible pronunciations that could be used and understood - the alternative wasn't an "incorrect" version that was just another accent or dialect - it was me just not saying it in any understandable way 😅
@@HeyRowanEllis thank you for trying regardless! i'm a new subscriber but you put in so much more effort in pronouncing the words which is very refreshing to see. most other creators ive watched just butcher it COMPLETELY and move on
no hate or anything but it was not that good.. at least idk what dialect that is
So thankful for you making a video with inclusion of eastern queer media. As popular as a lot of titles are, the vast majority of content gets ignored in analyses and essays.
Wouldn't censorship be a huge factor in queer media not being accessed or analysed?
@@jamesmeow3039 Yes, but there's actually quite a lot of queer asian media outside of China which isn't being censored and is very easy to access so it not being included in conversations, analyses and essays about queer media as a whole is a pity
@@jamesmeow3039only for China and maybe certain other oppressive regimes. There's an incredible amount of queer media from Asia. It's a massive continent with most of Earth's population on.
@@sof42 Can you reccomend any with a trans woman or transfemme protagonists?
@@jessajustbrowses hmm that's a hard one. If you're looking for Asian dramas there's a great trans femme side character in 3 Will Be Free, Secret Crush On You, Not Me and The Warp Effect but honestly those are the only prominent trans femme characters I can think of off the top of my head and they're still only side characters. Even if queer love media has come a long way in Asia, the main characters rarely stray far from being cisgender in BLs and GLs. You might be able to find some in less mainstream media, particularly in Thai media since they already have a more accepted trans femme identity as a part of their culture.
Edit: It's not Asian but Sense8 has a transgender female as one of the eight main characters and in case you haven't seen it yet, Heartstopper just got a new season and that has a prominent female transgender character but again, she's a side character.
This video makes me realize that despite the fact that my country keeps enacting blatantly anti-LGBT laws, we're still lucky, because the one time the government had attempted to restrict the internet in any way, they eventually backtracked. I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like
Idk what country you’re in it would be cool if US had better internet laws 😭
@@SebastianSeanCrowthey would be used against minorities and help rich people get even more control. At least thats what almost happened inmy country.
Exactly. The battle for true equality and for queer communities isn’t over. Not by a long shot.
@@bluebird7392 we actually have restrictive laws in the internet here in the US that’s used to target vulnerable groups
Its hard having a great firewall,or a less great one, russia.
As someone who has been very involved in the international danmei community for the past few years and already knew basically everything you talked about, I was very interested in how you would present it. It was, as always, really nicely done and I now have a good video I can send to people who might be new to the fandom and want a good primer. I particularly like how you're bringing it back to our communities here because too often the discussions surrounding Chinese censorship of queer content lacks nuance and forget about real queer people both in China and elsewhere closer to home. I am very happy to see your continued work not to do that!
this was such an amazing comment to get, thank you!!
Same here, as a long time danmei fan and I completely agree
"Like even if you came up watching soap operas, very extra" time to add to the 'to watch' list
the emotional whiplash you will experience from the way the show jumps between sheer absurdity and emotional sincerity is going to give you neck problems lol
yeeeessss join us 🐇🐇🐇
I'm Chinese. I don't think 227 is about fan economy or the show or Xiaozhan or queer fanfics or whatever. They don't care what it is about. They just need an excuse to block any platforms that people can freely post their works (and opinions, even in the form of fanfics) on, especially when the server is not in China and the organization is out of their control. They probably didn't notice that AO3 was such a big platform with huge amount of Chinese contents before 227 but the fandom drama drew their attention.
edit:
While I understand that "anti"s exist in every fandom and online harassments and dramas just happen and do harm to everyone in the fandom, even in "Western" countries (and racism, bigotry, moral judgements and whatever things can be used as weapons), I think what makes 227 so special is how the fans actively wanted to get the Chinese government involved. By censorship and inconsistant policies, the Chinese government on purposely created such an environment that none of the fandoms or content creators feels safe being in, making some fans believe that if they actively prove that their idol/work/fandom fits in all the values that CCP promotes, they can be "safe" and "protected", while proving other fandoms being against such values is the most effective way to shut them down. By doing this, censorship itself is weaponized. But this kind of mindset is such a delusion cuz the government don't actually value any fandoms for a single bit and they're all disposable when necessary, and under this mindset no fandom is "safe" anymore cuz it's just a matter of time that someone cancels everyone! While the government and its policies are the true elephant in the room, I think this is the reason why the Xiaozhan fans got so much hate after the 227 drama.
this. the backlash against xiaozhan was so widespread bc many different communities in china have suffered under the increasingly strict censorship. i saw ppl on lofter compare xiaozhan fans' behavior to red guards during the culture revolution.
I'm Chinese too and saw the whole thing go down firsthand. I totally agree with this.
Got that right. People forget that when The Untamed first came out and gained popularity it was praised by national news outlets for its Chinese cultural qualities. The ao3 ban just feels like a "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down" situation.
Youre probably right, doesnt helpthey go against queer content, soplus,plus for great poos regime.
This! I'm reminded of the person who wanted to join the Ao3 board (I think, I don't keep abreast of news myself and heard secondhand) and it sounded like they wanted more censorship on the platform so it would be palatable to China not realizing that bowing to the government censorship wouldn't fix anything but WOULD result in a net loss for everyone's freedom to express themselves creatively on the archive
As a huge fan of Chinese danmei; specifically, BL Xianxia stories like MDZS (Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation); the hardcore censorship of the CCP caused a massive upset in the BL, fanfic, and queer communities at large. Specifically with the MDZS fandom, the censorship was infuriating. When it was announced that MDZS would be getting a live-action adaptation, fans were both incredibly excited and worried (with good reason) because we KNEW that all the explicit queer elements of the story would be cut out completely. And that's exactly what happened. Like it has always happened, ever since the drama Addicted got shut down and pulled while airing in 2016.
For those who had never read the novels: they would enjoy the show for the bromance and fantasy element and the story. (And don't get me wrong, it's very good for what it is. I highly recommend) But for those of us who knew the original source material intimately, it was so very heartbreaking. The fact that Seven Seas got the right to translate, and distribute, the original work was a godsend for all of us who were forced to read the fan-translated versions on carefully hidden blogs. They had to be hidden, because if Chinese censors found them they would be shut down immediately.
All in all, this whole situation is just terrible on so my levels. For the authors whose very lives could be in danger simply for writing the stories that they want to be told, to the fans who just want to read a good story in the genre they love, and everyone in between.
Bestie, idk what show you watched. I don't speak Chinese (I was watching a subtitled version), knew nothing about the show before watching (I generally don't like asian media so I wasn't following the chatter) and I don't know much about Chinese culture: but not only was Wangxian obvious, The Venerated Triad, Songxiao, and Jin Ling/Lan Sizhui were also obvious. Yes, none of the gay couples get an onscreen kiss but *neither do the straight ones*. There is not a single lip kiss in this entire show. The most anyone does is hold hands (which Wangxian do). Wangxian is no more or less obvious than Jiang Cheng/Wen Qing. Xiao Xingchen's suicide only makes sense if he was Song Lan's lover, and Xue Yang's actions only make sense if he was aware of that. Jin Guangyao's clearly sincere offer to give up everything simply does not make sense if Lan Xichen wasn't his lover: and it was fairly obvious even before that. There is also the bit where Jin Guangyao very very clearly addresses Nie Mingjue as his Master. Like, you would need to be watching with the sound off to not notice that one. Wangxian is so obvious that a toddler notices it in exactly five seconds. There is absolutely no justification other than lust for how frequently Wei Wuxian says "Lan Zhan!" and that's IF you don't know what a courtesy name is (look it up). And like, if you weren't watching the screen you would assume these characters were in the middle of having sex from their tone of voice: and that is literally every conversation Wangxian have. Also, it doesn't take much to find out that "do you like rabbits?" Is the Chinese equivalent of "are you a friend of Dorothy?" And in case you are a westerner who would miss that bit an Australian guy wrote an episode where Lan Zhan hands Wei Wuxian two cocks. No explanation is given for this and the scene exists for no plot reason. And again, an Australian wrote the episode which I'm sure you would realize if you could read the Chinese title card (but you can also find out on imdb): so it means exactly what you, English speaker, think it means. Given that the protagonists of this show are CHILDREN for half of it, it would be uncomfortable if their sexuality was more explicit than it already is. It's uncomfortable enough that they are fighting a war. I DO NOT like it when characters who are under 18 kiss in shows, whether they are straight or queer. I do not want to be tittilated by underage characters, thanks. Word of Honor, with protagonists who are older, is even less subtle. They translated zhiji as "soulmate" in the subtitles and the protagonists spend the entire show flirting very openly (the eroticism in the poetry is very obvious, and I mean PEACH BLOSSOMS... hello). Also, I don't know a lot about Chinese culture and I'm sure there is stuff I missed in that show but I do know what dressing entirely in red means. Absolutely nothing about that scene was subtle, even if you somehow missed the dialog. Again, yes, the queer characters don't kiss: but neither does anyone else. I'm not going to address the insane lesbians, because yeah... very unfortunate. But yes, I did notice. Again, absolutely nothing about this show was subtle. These Xianxias are way less subtle than most western queerbait, which under the circumstances is pretty impressive. It helps that unlike anyone in Hollywood the Chinese apparently actually know how to write a romance plot in an action show. Please, queer people are not stupid. We don't need to see a kiss to know when people are in love, and when the characters are children or only barely adults we really don't particularly *want* to. Straight people's fixation on kissing as the only true sign of desire is weird, particularly since so few of the characters who ever kiss on screen actually seem to care about each other. Missing Wangxian or Wenzhou is like missing Achilles/Patroclus in the Iliad, or Gilgamesh/Enkidu. If you somehow manage that, you're probably one of those people who asks lesbians where their husbands are when they post wedding photos on Facebook.
@@sophiejones3554 Did you miss the part where I said that I was a huge fan of MDZS? That I knew the material intimately? Your entire screed was unnecessary. You also seemed to imply that I am an idiot, blind, unaware of the culture, its history, its nuances, the original source material, and...straight. Wow, just wow. So wrong on so many levels. First of all, grammar and paragraphs are your friends, and secondly, my comment in no way argued that there was NOTHING in the show to imply the romantic relationship between WWX and LWJ: only that a lot of the stuff from the books (including the kissing/sex scenes) were deliberately omitted because of the censorship of the CCP. Pump your brakes, love.
This! For me it was impossibly hard to watch the show and not only because the queer erasure (and I ditched it after 10 or so episodes)... It's just generally two different pieces of media with different stories and different characters (with the only similarity being the names).
I've only watched CQL but I'm familiar with the original novel and other versions. I understand why you felt that way but let's be real, a lot of the queer elements were absolutely still present and they pushed some incredibly obvious stuff past censorship. calling it a 'bromance' is misrepresentative; it's one of the most well fleshed out and portrayed romantic love stories I've ever seen, and the lengths they went to to make that clear were pretty extensive. it's literally just because they don't kiss or explicitly state their feelings that it could be argued that it's not canon but imo it does not present as anything but a romance.
@@sophiejones3554Well, as a danmei fan from outside of China, who got introduced to the genre by watching, then reading MDZS (donghua, then manhua, thwn novel), I was genuinely convinced that it was just queerbaiting, right until the explicitly gay scenes in the novels.
I believe that, especially among the international community, there are many fans who have no clue about the subtext, like I had.
Only now, after years of being a danmei fan, I can appreciate those censorship-crushed crumbs of "soulmates" drinking under the moon together etc., and I know when to imagine the whole cookie.
Lately I've been reading some fan-translated "Baihe" (aka GL, Yuri, Lily, Lesbian) novels. In them, they often talk about how the political environment around same-sex relationships are so much better now than they used to be. I always thought that they were talking about reality, but after seeing this video I realized that they were setting their story in a fictional version of China where they wouldn't be oppressed for who they love.
It was slowly progressing back then. I think Trump being elected bring a hugh wave of consertive influence in the world including China, I can't count how many times i see on Chinese social media people praising Trump as a worthy oppenant compared to Dems, and What a right move to fight political correctness. Then the trade war happened, anything positive about LGBT will be seen as influence from western world, which nowadays is equivalent as enemy, only negative news can be widely spreaded as jokes.
Aww 🥺 I didn’t know that. That’s sad 😢
fully was not expecting Rowan to make a video including mdzs but i’m so here for it, especially since the topic of this video is so important
Same. RL Fandom crossover
@@yseultCH you put it in to words way better than i could
As a mdzs fan, I try not to cringe thinking about how this incident and that one fic with too many tags (fast times with wangxian??) is all that other fandoms know about this story that is so special to me.
I wonder if Coley as a fandom channel, who has delved into mdzs and tgcf, will make an appearance in the comment section 👀
Edit: the fic was “sexy times with wangxian”
She is still a fandom channel! She did videos about them tho idk if she covered the incident .
i think it was "sexy times with wangxian"
@@wangxian_ that sounds correct. I just remember getting to the point of zooming in on a screenshot of all the tags to see what fic related death it could predict lmao
sexy times with wangxian has become a meme lol
I think she has made a vid about it already actually, I do recall watching a vid of hers explaining about the situation involving the fic, oh found it, it’s called “the infamous fanfic that changed ao3 forever”
East Asian diaspora over here, still somewhat tense after a thoughtful vid by a British youtuber on MDZS & The Untamed (which I very much consider to be Separate Works, for Reasons).
Why was I so tense? Around the time of THIS Scandal, about AO3 getting blocked by the CN government, ANOTHER scandal was brewing and harassing the "founding" members of MXTX's ENG fandom: the (predominantly) Asian fans translating the work to ENG.
The ENG fandoms for MDZS & The Untamed were founded by asians & asian diaspora. The fan-translations of MXTX's works into ENG (& other languages) weren't just of the works themselves: there were also fans actively exploring Literary Parallels with Classic CN Literature, discussing the different ways things could (or could not) be translated into ENG, and otherwise translating "Asian" (east asian, chinese, mainland china, chinese diaspora, ABC, SEA...) into ENG.
The "peak" of COVID & of The Untamed's popularity in the West seemed to hit the MXTX fandoms almost simultaneously.
There was suddenly a HUGE influx of new fans, curious about the source material of the Netflix show/YT webseries or "what does [chinese thing] mean?" or "lol these chinese names are all stupid [according to Bad Faith MTL translations]". The rampant, often TARGETED racism (innocent & otherwise) in a fandom space made by queer POC?
A lot of the Big Name Fans, ones who put unpaid labour into translating Concepts and Cultural References to a wholly new audience? They were harassed, ordered about & shouted over: a lot of this was Innocent Ignorance by new fans but, given the rise of Anti-Asian sentiment IRL at the same time, it all Escalated to a point where many blogs and essays only remain online as Archives.
MDZS is a Dark Xianxia novel that featured Political Intrigue, Horror, & Happily Gay Men: reading it, in fan-translations, reconnected a lot of asian diaspora with their "cultural roots", allowing us to collectively reengage with our languages & cultural history.
"Coming Out" is not "Liberating" in most asian countries, not just because of genuine fears of persecution but because, culturally, private lives are Private: in this way, "how many of us are queer & seeing adult asian queers being represented" was irrelevant. It was Unspoken that we saw in Wangxian, in MDZS, "ourselves" or at least the Intersections of our Identities being represented by Characters Like Us, as written by Someone Like Us.
...and then that space was taken from us, the texts reappropriated by non-asians, the beauty of classical chinese literary references degraded to MTL Meme Fodder.
Even with the hate, the harassment, the painfully Bad Faith takes of Very Very White American People... I still value that early fandom space, though most of its members have "Gone Into Seclusion" or otherwise Ditched their "Earthly" Titles. I still consider the ENG fan-translations of MDZS (now taken down, per the release of the "Official" translation) to be one of the most important books I have ever read.
There is an excellent video essay on the Importance of Media Literacy by the youtuber verilybitchie (disguised as a vid on "Why Queer TV is Getting Worse") that articulated a lot of the frustrations that I experienced, watching the harassment of fellow asians & the painful ignorance of americans "going feral" over [bad faith interpretations of Asian Language, Culture &/or Customs]. To this day, the word "feral" makes me tense up: I know what people willfully ignorant of anything chinese (or mainland asia in general) like to make Jokes about. I know how they miss Deliberate Points of the text, how they Cancel Characters and Fandom Analyses of the text that "fail" to align with "Internet Neutral" social expectations.
I kind of want to see Rowan collab with an asian youtuber (though I know the UK's Asian demographic is predominantly "South" Asian, not "East") for a sequel to this video essay, one that goes into POC fandom spaces and perhaps into the inherent "violence" of translation (this is a Specific Term in translation/linguistics spaces, something that a lot of the Founding Fans of the ENG MXTX fandoms wrote about to explain their need to Seclude from The [Public] Internet).
I'm glad a higher profile youtuber like Rowan has addressed some of the misconceptions RE Fandom & CN fandoms. MDZS was a "gateway" for a lot of people to non-JP, non-KR Made-In-Asia Fiction (queer & otherwise). Chinese works can be particularly difficult to access, between [written] language barriers and, uh, "politics". That's still true, tbh, though the experience of the MXTX fandoms was a big "teaching moment", thataways.
I'm glad more people know about Happily Gay Wangxian. I hesitate to recommend reading MDZS (its official ENG translation is... "okay") but the manhua and ESPECIALLY the audio dramas are definitely "closer" adaptions of MDZS than The Untamed webseries (which I consider to be a Separate Work entirely, tbh). Thanks for a genuinely thoughtful & good faith video on a "niche" (for westerners, anyway) topic!
Thank you for this video, it was really well done, and thank you so much for
@BattyButtercup comment! I must respond to this comment because I AGREE with everything you’ve said.
It was so nice to hear from someone who loved the original MDZS novel and what the fandom was like before The Untamed got really popular!
A little perspective from myself. I joined during that time in 2020 when the Untamed boomed in popularity due in part because of the lockdown and when it was officially on Netflix.
However, throughout the years, I have come to accept how much the Untamed changes the fundamental themes of the story. MDZS is a Dark Xianxia novel and deals with heavy topics such as injustice in society and class struggle, with the nuances that the rich cultivation clans are all hypocrites and greedy leaving no room for humanity (to state the very general theme of the novel). The Untamed tried to deal with these themes, but the critiques never landed like in the original novel. If we analyse all the little details that make those fundamental differences, it will take a while, so let’s just say the Untamed said a lot of things, but in the end, they still think that it’s the people in charge who are the problem. But I think MDZS gave a more realistic reflection that it is the entire system of cultivation clans, just changing who is the chief cultivator will not solve the root of the problem.
SO, I really appreciated discovering the OG translator, mostly archive blogs digging deeper into the MDZS books.
Although it could be a bit lonely here since many people have moved on, I still very much appreciate those still here and posting their art and analysis of MDZS.
Hearing about the racism inside MDZS’s community is so sad, I feel like with a fandom so large and something that grew almost exponentially, it makes sense that there are bad apples who got in. So I am glad those people leave the space behind for their own mental health.
Although I know quite a bit of MDZS’s translation history, I sadly don’t know much about the inherent "violence" of the translations? I know about the different translators apart from the official ones, like Exiled Rebel and Taming Wangxian and others who have translated it, but I can’t remember their names right now. So, if you don’t mind, would it be okay for you to share those stories? Just vaguely what was going on should be alright, doesn’t need to go into specific details. I would just love to learn more about the fandom's history.
Happily Gay Wangxian is the best thing that ever happened in my life as well XD
I totally get what you mean when you say that they, Wangxian, really gave us the representation that I didn’t know I needed, but something that I wouldn’t trade for anything.
I’m an Asian diaspora as well, and when I saw the struggle that everyone goes through in the novel, especially Wangxian, I thought to myself, “Wow, what I’m feeling about my identity, both as an Asian person and being queer, is something that can be articulate so beautifully onto the pages.”
I think one of the quotes that have been translated from MXTX's own words is that, forgive me if I paraphrase it wrong, we (the reader) should have Wei Wuxian’s character and Lan Wangji’s virtue. When reading into MDZS and seeing the nuances, this quote really hits differently!
I feel like it’s so important to have these types of gay representation in general, as you have also said it’s intersections between the different identities.
I have read more danmei since discovering MDZS, but I don’t think any book can come close to how MDZS made me feel, heck any books in general hahaha
Again, I want to say I very much appreciate your thoughts, and I just want to leave a comment here because I resonate with this. I hope you’ll have a fantastic day!
I loved verilybitchies video as well.:)
@@starrynight2004
Yes, as a non-Asian, I really appreciated the sincerity and effort the early translators put into keeping so much of the Chinese elements that can be challenging for a reader not used to reading Chinese content. I get sad when things are simplified (dumbed down) for an English audience; I miss a lot of nuance in these stories because of it. It obviously took a lot of effort and I so so so so appreciated it. 😊
As a (south) asian diaspora, MDZS is one of the few books from outside my culture that I felt good about reading in translation. Whenever I'm trying to explain a desi story to non-desi friends, I'm constantly saying "well x means y, and that can actually be a reference to z" and it makes me hyperaware of all the things I'm probably missing with other books in translation from cultures I'm not connected to.
With translated books, the publishing industry usually goes one of three ways. A few leave in all the cultural context and trust people to do their own research, some halt the story to explain, and way too many just get rid of anything they think their audience wouldn't understand (and they have zero faith in their audience. My mum once wrote a book, in english but set in the UK, and her USA publishers changed all the food, all the slang, and even made the currency in the book into dollars and cents 😅)
But with MDZS, the fan translators worked like hell to get an accurate, readable, comprehensive translation, encyclopedia-level references for every concept people might not get at first glance, and even explanations of the subtextual references that non-chinese readers wouldn't notice. Reading their work was such a joy. They did it for free, and then they got swarmed out by a bunch of entitled fans who couldn't get over that a book wasn't written for them.
TL:DR I'm so, so grateful for the fan translators out there.
A slight tangent, but I follow a fan translation group that unofficially translated the Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation into English. When the Untamed came out, quite a few unhinged fans came to their site and straight up accused the group of rewriting the webnovel to make it gay 😭
Yeah as someone who was in China during the events it’s infuriating. I’ve lived there for 20 years and I hate China for masquerading itself as a communist party while practicing state capitalism, i hate it’s censorship laws and how much I had to watch people around me be silenced for it.
In high school art pieces getting confiscated because it’s was too ‘controversial’. I love the people there and the culture and especially the people who basically raised me (my parents weren’t around so it was mostly others) but I had to leave my parents for my own mental health, i miss it a lot but I dislike the CCP. As a queer person I just couldn’t live there anymore not that my home country is much better but at least queer media isn’t censored from existing sigh.
Think its just the old people. You dont even have to consider ccp. Like congrats on getting a taste of asian parenting, now you know how we feel 🙄🙄
@@6Euphoria6 Uh i'm talking about danmei artists getting literally jailed and queer artists also being jailed in general for LGBT material because it's deemed 'degenerate' I have no idea what you're talking about lol.
My home country is more homophobic than China but it doesn't have the severe censorship laws that it does that's all I was saying. Also I'm asian, what do you mean "we" like you're making a point?
@luce6764 you can literally find these artworks on weibo douyin, xiao hongshu, so stop spreading misinformation ro reach some sort of agenda
@@6Euphoria6 unfortunately, the old people are the ones running the country. if you read the comment, you might notice that it's criticizing the actions of chinese authorities, rather than its citizens. if anything, op was sympathizing with the people living in china who have to live with these restrictions. please try to be a little kinder when posting replies in the future :D
@@Catflers they said "China"
One thing that the remark in The Economist about LGBT societies in universities being shut down doesn't include is the fact that there were only what, one, maybe two? *Official* LGBT societies in Chinese universities. The rest all existed and were maintained on whisper networks, and they were all taken down *literally* overnight. It happened to the one I was in too.
never forget that Mo Dao Zu Shi also was adapted fully into an animated web series that finished recently!! it's very cute!!!
YES, the animated show was my first introduction to the show and is so beautifully animated 😍
Would love you to do a video on RPF - I've always had complicated feelings about it, would love to see your take!
Yes, please! For me this began about 20 years ago when a friend recommended a traditionally published book series starring Jane Austen as a fictionalized detective. Although I love mystery novels and I love Jane Austen novels, and they seemed to be well-written books, I simply couldn't read it. It felt weird to me. It made me wonder how I would feel if that was done in my name 200 years after I died. It seemed a betrayal of the importance of the real life Jane Austen lived. And it seemed like a cheap cash grab by the author/publisher, who could have written an original character, but might have fewer sales if they did.
@@grutarg2938did the movie Titanic bother you? Not the characters of Jack and Rose, but the ones that were based on real people?
@@nicolet8186but the titanic was a historical narrative and intended to align with the experiences of the real people on the ship (excluding jack and rose) whereas the Austen one completely attributes a new identity to the person
@@nicolet8186 I feel like Titanic is a hard comparison here to RPF. Jack and Rose were not real people. It's a dramatized fictional version of a historical event, and historical fiction tends to stray close to real lives and real stories, but doesn't tend to actually rewrite real people into dramatized versions of their events. RPF is directly writing about a real person in a way that objectifies them to a fictional character. The distinction really makes all the difference. You can't say Titanic is RPF because it's not, and it's not RPF-adjacent, either.
@@nicolet8186 Good question. As others have said, it mostly did not because it was intended to be somewhat historically accurate, though of course with dramatic liberties taken. But, since you ask, the only one that bothered me, personally, was the depiction of Mrs. Brown. To me it felt like they were putting words in her mouth.
How about you?
According to my ex-flatmate that now resides in HK, Chinese historical drama do love their swooshy robes, no matter the genre.
It's one part traditional culture+ one part fashion statement + and 7 parts of HELLA EXTRA.
Also my ex-flatmate also told me that "apparently" the people in there consider LGBT as a "western influence" that "clashes with eastern tradition and custom". Yet despite that historically some of their ancestor emperors were known having a male concubine as partners "allegedly".
Yeah, the anecdote the term "cut sleave" was coined about dates from about 10 BCE... And accounts of emperors with male concubines are older still. But "western influence"...
Very interesting video, as both a fan of The Untamed and as an original volunteer tag wrangler of AO3. I want to note, though, that the OTW (the parent organization behind the AO3) had already received word that the AO3 was on a list of sites slated to be blocked by the CCP before any of this happened. These events created a convenient scapegoat for Chinese (and other) fans to blame for the blocking of such a massive fanworks site, a scapegoat that wouldn't lead to their own potential political problems, but I think it's another aspect of the story it's important to know. And truth be told, the timing of the incident has always made a number of us more than a little suspicious as to the veracity of certain details. It's just awfully convenient as a diversion of blame.
This!! I didn't hear it in the video, so i wasnt sure if it was true, but it was going around A LOT on twitter when this incident was happening. It's unfortunate that the site was blocked but xz getting the backlash for ao3 going down, when he wasn't even involved and ESPECIALLY if this ban was planned from the start is just insane to me
I want to upvote this comment more and more. It's something that goes well under the radar in this story but it was known by many people outside of MLC and even some within it that AO3 had already been earmarked by the CCP for firewall blocking that year, along with other fiction sites. It really was a perfect storm of events that gave the CCP a perfect excuse to go forward with the site block.
Thanks for covering this story with such nuance, Rowan. As someone from Hong Kong, the extremely real consequences of the Chinese government's censorship and homophobic policies are sadly familiar to me. So I really appreciate how you spent time discussing this cultural context, it's really vital in understanding how fans use these policies to act in toxic and damaging ways.
It hits very close to home (not geographically mind you), because in my country AO3 has been firewalled this year. I don't know the reason, but considering that Instagram has been firewalled for several years for potentially spreading false information, but AO3 has been available, and it's not a news site or social media site, my only conclusion has been that it's because it features a lot of queer works, there's no other explanation. It's been a huge blow to me, because as a queer person in a country where I have no rights as it is, AO3 is one of the few places where I can engage with works created by queer writers. I dread to think what's going to be next.
if you are from russia than yeah ao3 was blocked cause somone reported queer works
Oh no I'm so sorry for you! But it should work with VPN shouldnt it?
AO3 literally accepts all kinds of fiction, nothing is taboo, so it can be banned for a variety of reasons. And yes, it works with VPN just fine.
@@littlerose4822 it does, for now, but there are some talks about them working to shut down vpn apps as well. I don't know how soon it will happen or if it happens at all, but there's a possibility of it happening
@@geydenm just as I suspected. I chose not to investigate why specifically, because I do not necessarily want it on my search history
Oh wow I was vaguely aware of all the goings on around Xiao Zhan but was never fully made aware of the exact nature the drama. Hearing about all the laws and restrictions that came about because of this situation is really disheartening :(. Mo dao zu shi is probably my favourite pieces of media of all times, funnily enough my first interaction with it was through the donghua adaptation of it, which I don't believe you mentioned. The donghua sticks far closer to the original than The Untamed does (with censorship of course), they really did the most in terms of portraying their relationship more subtly, one of my favourite scenes that was adapted was when they were all lured into the cave and surrounded by the corpses, in the original Wei Wuxian drew talismans on his robes as a way to lure them away, but in the donghua Lan Wanji insists on not putting him in danger alone and they both end up dying their entire robes with blood. The reason this is significant is because they are portrayed in matching red robes which is the traditional get up for weddings, so it was basically confirming them as a married couple :p Sorry for the long ramble, my autistic ass has a huge hyperfixation on the subject ^~^
Oh and in the chibi miniseries Wei Wuxian refers to himself and Lan Wanji as both of A-yuan's Dads :)
I don’t think celebrities are responsible for their fans’ behaviour. Any more than fans are responsible for the behaviour of the celebrities they support. It’s a shame that Eternal Faith, Winner is King and Immortality will never get a release. I feel sorry for the cast and crew who put time, money and effort into making them. It’s also not very smart, from a strictly business standpoint, to restrict these kind of shows. I checked, and both The Untamed and Word of Honor were the top ranked dramas for their respective years of release. The amount of money that they made must have been incredible. On a more positive note, at least we have the animated versions of some of these stories to watch, and the official translations of the novels are so good. I’m currently about half way through Volume One of Sha Po Lang and I would love to see it as a live-action drama, it’s just that good.
Apparently they will be released in 2028 according to some Twitter speculations. It’s still a long time overall. 😭😭😭
At least TGCF season 2 is coming later this year! 🥺🥺😭😭
@@ashleyhansen4479 2028??! 😞😔. Another season is definitely something to look forward to, but there’s only three months of the year left! They better get a wriggle on! I’m only halfway through vol. 3 of TCGF, but I’ve enjoyed both the donghua and the novel so far. 😊
If I had a nickel for everytime MDZS had something do with Ao3 experiencing some kind of problem, I'd have two nickels which isn't alot but it's wierd that it happend twice
Jokes aside, as someone who is a big fan of The Untamed and the original novel MDZS
This was something I didn't know about and it's truly a shame
It’s this one with fans getting offended and the sexy times with Wangxian right?
OK, here is another wild but funny harmless thing that happened because of mdzs: during peak pandemic when China was speedrunning building hospitals and the public named their favorite construction digger Lan wangji
Oh, unrelated but the red robes scene will always be famous from the donghua. Made it worth craving Cornettos in the beginning
the funniest thing about that is that I'm still not sure if it was just a coincidence, since the character for 'ji' is commonly used for all types of machines and the digger was blue (Lan means blue).
taking damage every time rowan makes a video that touches the fandom im in
still really enjoyed the video!
Reminder to all the children, always save your favorite stories so you have your own offline copies!
I haven’t finished the video yet, but oh I remember 227.
I also remember the mass takedown of fanfics that had “sensitive” content on other china based web platforms shortly after that, including all of my translation works that were originally posted on AO3. Those fics aren’t mature or explicit by any means, it was at most a kiss or a hug shared between the main characters. Problem is? They are both male. I consider my works my children in a way, and it felt to me like they were slaughtered carelessly, or perhaps *carefully* so that nothing *sensitive* would remain.
I haven’t posted any more translation after that. I’m still mourning.
Gosh I am so sorry ;;; that's so horrible
trying to imagine being a part of Xiao Zhan's team and what it must have been like to go to work that week. I think they must have accessed a human emotion none of us can comprehend
im not sure if straight washing is the correct term to use for live action adaptations of danmei, i think straight passing would perhaps suit better? the creators of the dramas are very much aware of the queerness of the original and there are plenty of hints of varying subtleties (sometimes a reference to chinese queer history/legend) but they add an element of possible deniability, so that the queer fans can see the queer story that is supposed to be there, while the rest can think they are watching a "clean" "bromance" with possible female love interests. all the evade the censorship.
word of honor, btw, really seemed to wanna see how far they could push the boundries in a drama ahahhaha
I agree, for me this very much didn't come across as straight washing, but as people wanting to make a story regardless of the limitations imposed. There are so many straight stories they could have adapted instead.
Nah, I think that straightwashing fits in the context where it was used. It did not refer to toning down the queer elements to make them less obvious to heteronormative audience, but rather outright changing the elements to make the story more explicitly straight, like changing the gender of some characters, or adding a straight romance which was based on nothing in the source material.
I loved word of honor so much but I think it got banned in China later bc of some controversy with the actor , right ?
@@lunaoliveira7965 I don't know about WoH getting banned, but I am afraid it was the main trigger for the "feminine men ban" and the censorship got way more strict right after it aired, because so much passed under the nose of the CCP (and it was apparently still too much even after some dialogues got dubbed over completely)
I was searching the comments for some mention of how WoH fit into the timeline! Yes there was a controversy with one of the main actors and I thought I knew what was going on but after watching this video I understand better how complicated it can be. WoH was my first experience with danmei and it was interesting to see how strictly the fandom policed itself when the scandal broke. Everyone basically forbid each other from posting publicly about it for fear of attracting negative attention to the actor/show. The whole situation made me pretty sad actually 😅
Jesus that takes me RIGHT back 😖😖 I remember this all very well
Yeahhh I watched the show in 2021, and I remember knowing what happened with the actors (back then, years ago), and it hurt so bad :(
Oh God, same. I still have shivers every time I remember everything that was being said to Xiao Zhan at the time. I'm soooo glad he managed to come back from all that.
And honestly, something I noticed after all that happened is that there's always some sudden controversy with the main actors of BL C-Dramas, no matter what the reasons are. Crazy.
If I had a nickel for every time a WangXian fanfic broke AO3, I’d have two nickels which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice
I KNOW I WAS FULLY PREPARED TO SEE THAT DEATH SCREEN OF TAGS BUT ITS SOMETHING ELSE😂 ahh the battles we have witnessed
appreciate how comprehensive this video is, esp the background on ppl getting jailed for writing danmei.
i have to confess, i will never watch another media involving Xiao Zhan, the fan behaviour just left such a bad taste in my mouth.
some of the commentary on this incident focus on how risque the fanfic in question is, or how crazy fans/antis are, completely missing how serious this whole thing is.
fandom trying to leverage govermental censorship against a fanfic, and seemingly succeeding, did enormous damage to online communities and just free speech in general.
also want to add that reporting to the gov is a huge breach of chinese fandom etiquette.
idk if this was the first instance, or just the first one that blew up, but in general, even during the most brutal fandom flame wars, ppl would not even think about getting the gov involved.
not to be a boomer, but i do wonder if younger ppl in china who have never experienced the freer early days of chinese internet understand how destructive gov censorship is.
it's definitely not the first time someone in Chinese fandom tattled to the government, if I remember correctly there was this drama involving two writers that devolved into one reporting the other to authorities for writing "pornography and obscene content"(read gay stuff) and got her arrested and jailed.
and yeah I would agree with you that the environment younger ppl grew up in here in China make this kind of behavior more and more likely. the ccp propaganda machine really ramped up in the past decade or so, and some major parts of it manifest in education and online censorship. Not to mention school systems here have always praised behaviors like tattling, snitching, and placing absolute trust in authorities to sort problems out. This kind of incident is kinda inevitable
Good point, there are interviews and such with older chinese citizens who ask the same questions of the younger generation who have been so indoctrinated and brainwashed that they would turn on someone they feel is “violating” or disrespecting xi's rules and etiquette. Tianmen isn't talked about. Being queer violates family law. Children are being taught to hate instead of love. I wish we talked about this more instead of side stepping the issue.😢
I am an overseas Chinese, and an early Gen Z (was born in 1995), who did experience the Chinese internet in its freer times. However, I am still active on Chinese Social Media and I can definitely say that the younger generation does not understand how destructive gov. censorship is. People, who are my age, would be more likely to go over the wall to do their research about important topics such as the current situation with Japan's nuclear reactor, but younger people who were born in the 2000s, are more prone to believe what the government is telling them. If you have another opinion or even perspective on serious topics, because you are from overseas, for example, you will get hate. They really don't like overseas Chinese. And I have experienced this first-hand. The way they argue with me, it's like I have betrayed the country. Someone even commented mean stuff, because my partner is Austrian. They asked why I was not with a Chinese man. My answer was: "I did not grow up around them, so I am not attracted to them. Also, most of them my age are spoiled brats, and I don't have the time and energy for that."
The sad thing is that the younger ones are taught to bear grudges. That is why you will see a lot of hate coming from these kids when it comes to serious topics. And one specific thing that caught my eye, is that they love to hold their country on a pedestal. It is like to wipe out all the bad shit things that China has done in the past. My academic background is in Global History, so I can say for a fact that no country is purely innocent. Every country has a dark history. However, it is nearly impossible to encourage them to look over the wall. They are too indoctrinated. It is a sad reality.
Good rehash of the whole mess, It's a very complicated thing.
I do have one "But" and it's that I feel the video should have mentioned that while his career NOW is OK, he had to disappear for like a year, and he did lose all or almost all his contracts. So... yeah... his career didn't end for good, but it wasn't "fine" at the time.
I'm so sorry to hear about your book! This book banning thing is... I have no words...
i would like to point out that there is behind the scenes footage of the actors and producers talking about the queer relationship present in the original novel, and the actors playing wei wuxian and lan wangji made jokes about the other being a "trash boyfriend" outright regarding a specific scene and going further discussing how their characters felt about each other. so they definitely didnt go in thinking it was a buddy bromance type deal, but these videos are hard to find especially subtitled in english.
The way i jumped out of my skin when i saw mdzs. Great video as always
Rowan doing a video about MDZS and the 227 incident was not in my bingo card for this year but here we are.
It's nice that we get a nuanced, non-sensationalist video on the subject. Also read MDZS, everyone, it's great.
I wonder how many MDZS fans are here and were on twitter when the official comic artist was posting the (unofficial and VERY NSFW) extra chapters that obviously couldn't make it into the actual comic. Wangxian were fucking for a whole year, it was a wild time.
I'm one of those fans lol
Imo It's not an Idol's responsibility to manage literally almost thousands upon thousands of people they don't know or associate with. Yes they do hold some influence and some power, but Idols are supposed to be doing their jobs without having to babysit their fandoms.(Unless the Idol is telling their herd of fans to harass someone or something) I mean they best they can do in the situation is just tell fans straight up not to cause harm to others and etc. Although that should be common sense to anyone with a braincell, It annoys me to see 'fans' acting horribly to others making the rest of the fandom look bad. Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.
TLDR: Idol not responsible for fans acting horrible, fans shouldn't be dicks and ruin fan reputation
I agree with this sentiment at the core, and I would like to introduce some nuances in this situation that makes everything more complicated.
See at the moment, the Chinese Idol and entertainment industry is heavily influenced by the Korean idol system, who not only manages and packages their idols down to the most invasive degrees, they also often actively monitor, or even directly manage the fan group. This is so they can have a tight influence on the fans' emotions and passions, and can use it to influence mainstream narratives about the idol, sway them into spending more money, and even in extreme cases send them into flame wars to defend their idol or even defame a rival. This is why Korean kpop fans have the reputation of being terrifying btw, and why some of these fangroups are nicknamed armies, because sometimes they literally are one.
Mind, the idol, the person behind all this packaging, cannot bear responsibility to this kind of mob. This kind of fan mindset is heavily cultivated by the Brand and the company behind it, which stand to turn fan frenzy into business profit, and that same mindset eventually turn into volatility that even the originating business cannot contain.
When I personally say I dislike idols and idol culture, I'm not placing the blame onto the idol, the person. I'm angry at this business machine, which at its core is toxic, exploitative, and damaging to everyone involved.
@@sunnydong9069 Thank you for explaining this to me further and I also agree that it's very toxic and very exploitative and damaging. It's quite unfortunate that at the end, everyone is being used to feed to the business machine.
I agree with that statement a lot, especially in this situation. But it gets complicated really quickly. The work of creators and artists as such is not neutral, it has positions and contexts, even if they aren‘t claimed explicitly. Fans come up with things of their own, but they do so in picking up that content.
So as I heard about the BBC Sherlock series, there were a lot of queer fans - and certainly also fanfiction writers - that created queer content in fandom. The showrunners did not intend to tell queer narratives as their main story - it is the creative work of the fans. But fans reading it queer that way was also no complete coincidence since many queer clues were in the show, very clearly there. Had the writers not put them there the queer fandom (that would have existed anyway, don‘t get me wrong) would have looked quite differently.
In this case the actor seemed to behave differently, but the point is: it‘s complicated.
You got to understand how literall 1984 the chinese surveilence recently is. .
And it its a good excue tokeep artists in checkand controlled, and destroys the comunity that might would be a comunity that might talk aboutgay stuff i guess. And be critical.
the policing eachother by having noone being able to trust anyone is a pretty classic surveilance tactic, as is keeping the wellbeing offamily mmbers and co hostage.
I just want toammer home how eviland iterally 1984 currentmainland china is. I doubt the governmentcres if they can control and blackmail people more.
Yep, and people also don’t realise how Chinese fans sometimes have more power than the idol themselves. This isn’t west where fans actually listen to and respect their idols lol
I'll never be a fan of fanfiction relating to real world people.
This literally came out at the perfect time for me- MDZS and MXTX books in general have become a new special interest for me lately so this deep dive into fandom history has been really fascinating
you picked a great interest! i definitely recommend watching the untamed if you haven't seen it. imo, it's the best version of the story, even better than the novel. the actors were all fantastic, embodied the characters perfectly.
i loved the untamed and the best thing about the drama was that it never gives wei ying or lan zhan a straight love interest in the entire drama. they have lingering gazes and the entire plot is started bc of who they are to each other. and at no point is there any female love interest that is supposed to replace their relationship. the director said he wanted to get as close as he could within the laws and he got pretty damn close
There should be some clarification on the danmei author that got arrested. She tried to publish her book overseas, but her publisher screwed her over so royally, so she started printing the books and selling them independently. The publisher got out and got all pissy so he reported her.
Omg thank you so much for taking the time to learn how to pronounce the names correctly - i was honestly not expecting it and would have enjoyed the video anyway. your correct pronunciations makes this so much better tbh!
As someone who’s been a fan of MDZS (and MXTX, and danmei) for years now, I sometimes forget our seemingly off the radar fandom is the one responsible for ao3 being banned in China. And also for ao3’s tag limit, thanks to the (in)famous Sexy Times with Wangxian fanfic.
In regards to your point about future TV adaptations of MXTX's works, Tiān Guān Cì Fú / Heaven Official's Blessing (the novel she wrote after MDZS) was actually picked up for a live action adaptation back in 2020, under the name 'Eternal Faith'. However, it's one of the 50 odd danmei adaptations you referenced that were impacted by the extra restrictions put in place by the NTRA in 2021, and despite the series being filmed in its entirety there haven't been any official production status updates since filming was completed in January of 2022
In fact, of the adaptations you mentioned at the start of the video, three of them are in the same situation: Immortality/Erha, Winner is King and Dreamcatcher. Dreamcatcher in particular is a massive loss, since it would have been the first adaptation of Fei Tian Ye Xiang's work, who is one of the very few gay men writing danmei
To my knowledge, the only live action danmei adaptation that has aired in China since 2021 is Justice in the Dark, which started airing earlier this year. A lot of people took this as a sign that the restrictions had been relaxed somewhat, but only 8 out of 30 episodes ended up being released before the show was halted and ultimately pulled from all streaming sites :(
However, there is still some hope - as of earlier this month, season 2 of the TGCF donghua (animated TV series) was officially confirmed for release in October, after almost 2 years of delays. Provided it does end up airing in full, it'll be the first tv show adaptation of a danmei work to be successfully released since the new laws came into effect, which is a pretty big deal
wasn't the TGCF Donghua Delayed because... well Xie Lian's voice actor? he got replaced.
@@ghoulchan7525 The voice actor replacement happened in June of this year, so rerecording was probably the cause of the most recent delays! But prior to the new laws coming into effect, s2 had been announced for release in 2022 - so there were pretty significant delays even before the va issues
@@orimamiya i see. i wasn't aware much of the earlier delays. though if the CCP makes the guidelines any tighter i think most show Producers will just throw in the towel. or people will just stop watching if everything becomes the same.
anyway i hope the new VA will do a good job too.
if you finished watching this video, i highly recommend watching aini's Parasocial relationships in East Asia: A look into obsession, she talked about fan culture in east asia, including china fan culture which is a really accurate depiction from what ive seen in the chinese fan spaces that adds to this video
I came here expecting a discussion of that one AO3 story that had so many tags that it briefly broke the site & required them to change how many tags are allowed, but instead I got a way more interesting (and frankly, distressing in several ways) story about censorship & how much responsibility fandom has for itself.
Great video, Rowan!! I really enjoyed it.
I’ve been a fan of Scum Villains Self Saving System (mxtx’s first novel) I remember seeing all this going on in the periphery back in the day and being confused by everything a few mutuals were talking about, so it’s really nice to finally understand what was going on comprehensively rather than random contextless twitter posts.
And here I thought all the drama the western mdzs fans stirred up too much drama, oof. (not too downplay how toxic some antis in the mdzs fandom can get, but still)
It's amazing to me that people are being made responsible for the thoughts and actions of people they will never know. Lots and lots and lots of people.
i’ve always hovered right outside the fandom. i’ve been aware of it’s existence and have 2 close friends who love it, but never read (or watched) myself. thanks for covering this, i feel like i finally fully understand what actually went down.
highly recommend watching it! it's fantastic.
Never thought I’ll see videos about danmei on your channel but I’m so happy I did (: MXTX is one of my favorite authors and eastern queer media often gets left out of conversations about LGBTQ representation
There was actually more to the aftermath of 227 incident. Xiao Chang was black listed for a year and now has to pick only a specific roles in his career. Also he can't be seen on public with Yi Bo and guys are actually really good friends. Another aftermath is that unlike her previous two novels, in TGCF MXTX had to awaoid adding an explicit extra chapters.
I've been waiting for someone to cover - as i never fully understood what happened
Wow. I had no idea. I’m always thrilled to see a new video from this channel - they’re always so researched and in-depth. Excellent work as always!
Thank you so much for giving such a nuanced and involved explanation - especially your point at the end. My knee-jerk reaction when you mentioned doing a fan fiction video and discussing RPF was one of worry, because people get SO black and white about it. But then I remembered... it's you! Nuance and good research is, like, your whole thing! So I'll chill out and just look forward to it instead 😅
I appreciate you reminding people in western countries that awful things can happen in any country, no matter if worse happens elsewhere. It's important for us to take all transgressions seriously and not just demonize others as "homophobic savages", because all that does is further ostracize the queer communities within those places. Thanks for another excellent video
Hello from Australia, thank you as ever for your work. I was so happy to see your name pop up on my subscriptions.
I would honestly love to see your take on the parasocial nature of VTuber fandoms like Hololive and Nijisanji. It is... wild, to put it lightly. To the point where actually, on second thoughts, you'd have to tread pretty carefully in order to not get harassed if you were to make a video.
I too would be very interested to see a breakdown on that sphere. I watch vtubers from time to time (only their let's play content) but from what I see its an entirely different world that, honestly, makes me a bit uncomfortable to even skim the surface of.
Thanks! I love that you covered this subject!!!!
5:40 "adapted works include Immortality" 😢😢😢
No true fan would go this far. You can be mad that Ao3 went down, but going after someone’s career is to far.
Idols shouldn’t be responsible for their fans. That’s such bs!!
Amazing breakdown. I'm tangentially aware of almost everything in here, but now i understand all the connections better. Thanks!
I’m actually reading one of MXTM’s newer books right now and having a great time with it. I like Heaven Official’s Blessing a lot more than GrandMaster of Demonic Cultivation.
I like how you can see the evolution of censorship through all of her works. Her first few novels had explicit smut, followed by HOB which had no sex scenes at all, to now there's a new revised edition that supposedly is even more chaste than the original.
@@nabilahalshari7880 I miss the smut. Not that Grandmaster had good smut, imo, but I want MXTM to be able to write what she wants. I like HOB because there’s so much focus on what they both want rather than one taking from the other
this is an incredible video essay. so interesting and well-researched! thank you for this!
I can totally relate to the straight but queer characters situation. Xena Warrior Princess was that for me in the late 90's. No wonder amongst the fans, about half of the women were bi or lesbian, myself included.
nothing about this situation is shocking to me. but it's sad
dont care i make superior than HeyRowanEllis
really amazing video! situations like this always impact most on queer people just trying to live their lives and it's just incredibly sad tbh
I remember when this happened! its refreshing to have Chinese media being talked about on media analysis channels because it is internationally huge but often gets looked over in favour of things like anime. The Untamed was a quintessential piece of queer media for me as I grew up and I still watch many cdramas to this day! great video essay and I think you explained it well :) an interesting thing to talk about could be word of honor and the strengthening of Chinese queer censorship laws pertaining to effeminate men, which has halted production of many danmei adaptations
finally someone covers this!!! i knew of this a while ago and was shocked about what happened but no one ever talked about it
thank you for covering the topic. this was a wild ride
One of most terrifying realisations in adult life is that not all harmful behaviours against freedom come stricly and only from goverment but also are deeply rooted in other people around you. I remember 2019 elections in my country when LGBTQ+ people where choose as a scapegoat to gain more votes and the most heartbreaking and frightening thing was that it worked. That day I almost completely lost faith in people that live in same country as me and see no problem in harmful messages spread about all kinds of minorities.
Learning about this phenomenon happening in other countries to even higher degrees is awful. No country should have their citizens turn against each other and use censorship with this sense of moral superiority and/or rightnesses of some kind or just pure spite. My whole heart goes out to all LGBTQ+ people in China that not only have to face discrimination from their goverment but also everyone around them
Mo Dao Zu Shi is my entire personality
I feel horrible for the author in this situation. They just wanted to write a story. They didn’t want to cause harm but people gave them backlash anyway. The person who liked the story made fan art because they enjoyed it. Yeah, some fans will be crazy but… if you drive away the fans that love the stories that brought you fame and those fans joy then… why act at all?
This made me cry so much, I kept thinking about the people and what that all meant and haha I have a hard time handling it, but it's important, as much as it may seem insignificant when you just hear about it without knowing much, your video shows it's not. Thanks for the message at the end as well, it really motivated me to put more efforts into creating safe spaces for our community.
Having explained CCP censorship and how “China doesn’t queerbait, if you think it’s sus, it’s gay” on Shinning Nikki threads before, this is such a great video explaining how weird censorship is in China. Will definitely recommend next time someone gets mad at the non-stated lesbians.
I can't believe you're covering this. ❤
Oh wow, I had no idea any of this was going on in China! Thank you for widening my horizons!
If I’d known Rowan was going to be making a video about this, I would’ve waited for this video instead of going down the rabbit hole and just getting confused when I got curious about it last week, LOL
Thank you for the video and parasocial relationship
I was completely unaware of all of this with the exception on knowing that The Untamed is very high on my to be watched list. This is honestly the kind of video that I'll need to rewatch to take in all of the factors because I just feel a lot of shock, disbelief, anger, fear & sympathy over many points.
You're right, as always, on your key messages, tho. This isn't just some oddity "over there" that we can shrug off & feel safe in our own lives. There's a caped villain directing us to look this way or that while they're doing everything to hide the facts of what's happening right here. It just depresses me to know that LGBTQIA+ rights any & everywhere in the world are subject to extreme change with just a vote or change in leadership or demands of an unknowing or uncaring public. I honestly don't know if the internet makes it better or worse, but thanks to this I at least know more now so I just have to figure out what to do with this new awareness.
you're going to love the untamed! i wish i could go back and watch it for the first time again. i had no idea what it was when i discovered it, back in 2019 i was just looking around netflix for something to watch and when i stumbled on it i thought the blurb about it sounded interesting. little did i know, i was about to watch one of the most beautiful relationships i've ever seen portrayed in media unfold. 🥲 i knew nothing about danmei or china's censorship or the original novel, but their love for each other was incredibly apparent to me. it's obvious the director really had a lot of love for the story he was telling. imo, the live action is the best version of the story, superior to the animated (though the art is gorgeous in that dgmw, the characters just kinda lack soul), and even the original novel (there were some consistency issues due to the way the story was written, as well as a few choices the writer made that are kinda just bad writing that all got fixed in the live action). my only advice is 1) try not to drop it in the first 3 episodes lmao (it's a bit hard to follow but it gets so much better, just stick with it) and 2) really savor it when you do watch it! don't binge it too hard, because you'll never get to see it for the first time again. ♥
I hope this doesn't stop you from watching it. The Untamed is a good show. It isn't perfect, nothing ever is, but it's still a good show.
@@animec-dramaskpop6362 I still can't wait to watch it. I've seen 3 episodes & loved them. I prefer subs over dubs, tho, so I just haven't been finding the time to watch & pay attention like I need to.
as someone who was just watching the untamed at the time and suddenly heard about ao3 being banned in china bc of a fic, this video is great at recapping the whole thing!
All I know is that Xiao Zhan didn't deserve what happened 😢
Agreed
He hasn’t taken any hit in his “career “, or taken any responsibilities for this incident if thats what u mean, he is still very much loved by big companies like Tengxun. He only ever responded to this incident once and clearly a written out piece by publicists, not a word of his own. Even if managing fans is not his responsibility, at least show some regret for the people that are hurt by your fans, is what we want to see, and we see nothing. That is the main reason people influenced by 227 hate him. He will always be a puppet of big corporations, never a real person. Hope you can understand, cuz thats the point of view from someone who personally went through 227 and had to deal with it to this day. Seeing him still happily appearing on every kinds of media in China just makes me sad and angry.
I'm still a big fan and I'm so glad he's still able to make a living. I felt so bad for him when all of this was going down. In a recent interview he said he developed anxiety bc of this whole mess.
@@laurencelinnwhy should he take responsibility for what he didn’t cause? The incident has been over for more than two years. If the 227 fans can’t get over it, that’s their problem
@@laurencelinnwhy should he take responsibility for things he didn’t do or not within his control? Why should he apologize for people attacking him and boycotting him for actions not of his own? Why didn’t the 227 team go against the CCP instead of XZ? Let’s face it, they decided on him bc he was an easy target.
ETA: I’m an AO3 reader myself and I’m glad he is doing well. I hate to see an innocent being hurt by acts of others.
I'd only seen this pass by in fragments on the tunglr, glad to see a comprehensive breakdown!
beyond the system that encourages censorship, for me the infuriating thing is the majority of chinese xz fans will deny they have anything to do with reporting the website, when there's proof of them teaching people which number to call and report...
❤ Thanks for your hard work
That was a really fantastic end to the video, thank you for reminding me that we can all be a positive force in our own fandoms
I’m Chinese but have only heard about the incident through a cdrama reviewer. This is the first time I’ve seen such an in depth video on this issue from a Western creator and i wanted to thank you for sharing your insight.
For wanting to be more in touch with my roots (as I was brought up in the Uk), experiencing MDZS had a massive impact on me because it also changed my perception on storytelling and raised my standards for emotional depth in films/shows.
To think TGCF and Immortality may never air because of this problem is soul crushing to all the parties involved who had tried to bring this work to life - the og authors, crew and cast. Not to mention the amount of money and time flushed down the drain.
Thanks for the breakdown. I've always been confused about how danmei gets published in China if it's technically illegal.
Thank you for putting all that happened about AO3 in 2020 into a wider perspective. Great work
Although I'm verynliberal about self-expressing, I end to draw the line at publicly shipping real people. I feel like that's fantasy and gossip and should remain as such.
I never thought I’d see the day when cql/mdzs would be spoken about by her 😭 my interests are overlapping
i got my brains sucked out of me by mdzs at the start of the pandemic and entered the deepest state of hyperfixation i've lived to this day. seeing this video on my subscriptions feed felt like a fever dream. i'm like three minutes in and i had to stop because i'm laughing so much from the joy of having mdzs be talked about by you. im sure the next 32 minutes of the video will be a delight as well, and have this topic treated with the respect it deserves.
i don't know if you mention it, but another entirely different wangxian fanfic also helped shape ao3: sexytimes with wangxian had so many tags that the site decided to limit the amount of tags you can put on your works. the fanfic isn't on ao3 anymore but i don't remember if that was on ao3's end or the author's. i remember finding her on twitter a few weeks after the fact, and after following her i discovered that she softblocked everyone and delete all of her tweets every morning. i felt so sad that that's what she had to do to feel safe on the internet after everything that happened!
mdzs truly is A Piece Of Media (or several, more accurately) that has given me the most deranged moments of my internet stay, while also somehow managing to get me thinking about quite serious topics. cheers to all fellow wangxian enjoyers and yi city sufferers!!!
Thank you so much for talking about this, I've been left in the dark and couldn't quite understand what was going on in these fandoms, it is horrible that many Ao3 users are unable to access their works and read fanfiction on that platform, Ao3 itself has been attacked quite often these last few months, if you could please cover this in another video I would be thrilled, every time it goes down i start to panic like the world is about to end :'D. Also the thought of MXTX imprisoned for writing one of and if not THE BEST gay romance novel in existence breaks my heart, it hurts to see China censor the hell out of these novels and ban lgbtq content, absolutely disgusting and infuriating.
I wish you also talked about how AO3 also got banned in Russia.
True! But I see why it wasn't mentioned in this video, as it specifically deals with the situation in Chinese fandom, not fanfic websites in general
Probably because quer and maybe toplease their new chinese sugar daddies.
Well, at least we still have ficbook as equivalent. This doesn't excuse ban of AO3. Sometimes, ficbook isn't enough to fulfill hunger for fics because fandom might be not so popular in Russia and AO3 was kinda saving straw for that problem(because, well, it contains more content). And it all started with "Summer in the pioneer tie"(book about two gay boys in USSR summer camp) getting popular among teens and Russian government banned in from publishing🙃, publishing among with it law about "ban of LBGT propaganda in media" (which has very vague phrasing that can consider as propaganda almost anything that even has a queer character as a background none important part of story).
Thank you for telling this story, Rowan! I also live in an extremely homophobic and transphobic country which actively prosecutes queer people for just existing, so I feel a lot of gratefulness for your empathetic approach to this story. This isn't some novelty, this is the everyday life of so many people
😂
This was very interesting. Thank you for researching and sharing.
I'm still worried for the people involved. When someone makes a public statement in a place with heavy government control and says "I'm fine! Everything is fair and good! This is my personal opinion!" I can't quite believe it. But even when you know there's a lie somewhere doesn't mean you know what's true. Your research showed lots of angles of what can be known, and you acknowledge the not-really-knowing aspect as well. Not a knock on you. Just can't help but feel bad for everyone.