Hmm. Millions of automatic transmissions are made around the world with similar interfaces between rotating and static pieces, rotating seals, etc. It is usually done with steel on steel or steel on cast iron by centering the rotating part on the fixed part with a couple bronze bushings, maintain clearance, and teflon seal rings between channels. Works great. Delrin? in a hot oil. Delrin with these threads in it might be strong enough for at room temp, but at 250-300 F it will be marginal indeed. Maybe a metal bushing set in the plastic will spread out the load from the oil connectors enough, maybe not. Then, under hot oil and internal pressure of several hundred psi, we can expect the Delrin part to be inflated. Expect another engine emergency soon.
Even more reasons to remove the redrive from the engine oil loop. Temps would be far lower and gear lube or hydraulic transmission oil could be used instead of motor oil.
I don't know that I would use a Delrin bushing in that application. It's not just the heat but also the vibration. Have you thought about a bronze bushing?
I didn't see a video of it but did you end up going through everything that oil touched after the engine failure? There's almost certainly metal particulate in every single part that had engine oil in it and you may find that you're going to keep killing things unless it's all thoroughly flushed or replaced.
Peter, I sure do admire your persistence, you are truly an inspiration. For that application, delrin just seems wrong to me; I don't think tolerances on that type of plastic can be very well machined, and I'm concerned about it's tendency to soften at elevated temperatures. I believe the max long-term operational temperature for it's use is about 185F. Perhaps a better material for this application would be bearing bronze (954 Bronze)? It's machinability is excellent, it can be machined to very close tolerances, it is self-lubricating, and it won't foul or gall to the redrive shaft. Either way, keep your chin up, there's a LOT of us out here rooting for you! V/r, Jon
Peter et.al. I really appreciate your straightforward, no-nonsense approach to identify an issue, share it, and work to resolve it. This approach builds confidence in the project and your approaches; it also builds respect in the community. This isn't done for marketing, but in fact, has a very positive effect on the intended audience. Keep it up! Kevin
I would agree with Robin Szemeti's comment regarding Delrin's load bearing capacity and wear specs. Delrin - Acetal Homopolymer gets compromised at elevated temps, fine for prototype and R&D, but not a great material choice IMHO. If you fly with a Delrin bearing as you propose, it would need to be inspected before and after every flight to be anywhere near safe... There are many other materials which would be better suited to this application. You are doing a great service to the general and experimental aviation community with your work and dedication. You mentioned an airport move in the video? Do you care to share the new location?
What is the oil transfer bearing tolerance gap to the shaft? Lycoming uses an extended length main bearing with oil transfer slot. Continental uses a floating two piece oil transfer collar that is separate from the main bearings. The tolerance is very tight and precise.
Peter, I added a comment to your last video, but is was a week after all others, so I am not sure if you saw it. Please look at the you tube video "What's wrong with Raptor's compound turbo system?" I believe you will find it very interesting. Then you can decide if you need to work on that.
That video is mathematically illiterate. He’s not going to get anything useful from someone who confuses completely different terms like pressure and air mass.
Now that you have changed the prop collar to a non-metallic material, you should go ahead and separate the propeller oiling system from the engine oiling system. Then you can use a gear rated oil in the redrive and prop and keep the engine oil as required for the diesel engine. That would keep high temps out of the redrive and prop as well as stabilize the engine oil system volume. A small tank can be installed to capture the extra gear oil that comes back from the prop at flat pitch.
You're still in the test phase, Peter - not just the myriad of parts in the aircraft, but also your solution managment and patience. Can't wait to see her in the air again.
Curious… are you required to go through a similar process of certification... like the experimental aircraft people? Specifically, they are required to get 40 hours within a specified geographic area. And, if something gets changed that would affect The flying characteristics of the airplane, They have to go back to phase 1 of the certification, and get five hours on the particular change.
Compare the thermal coefficiencies between your shaft and oil ring. There is some incompatibility issues due to expansion differences. Ideally you'll want them to expand at the same rate maintaining constant clearances. Just remember the Blackbird has gaps in its skin for this very reason. Once warmed up at cruising speed the fuel tanks are sealed up; but cooled off and on the ground it leaks like a sieve.
Curious... are you await of a video on CZcams, where the author (sounds like he is versed in the subject) speaks about the issue of turbocharging and particular where your project is using the wrong size turbochargers for your Raptor engine? If you have not seen it, let me know, and I will find the vLog.
He says the primary turbo has to be much larger to generate the required power at FL25 and shows the charts and math. He has 45 years of experience in auto and aircraft turbocharging including turbocharged auto engines in aircraft. Here's the link: czcams.com/video/IiGEoQpcjos/video.html
@@MyUtubefreak I saw that video. I think it's a good one. I've also read comments for car engineers who said similar things. The sizes of a two stage turbo have to be carefully considered.
If the Delrin doesn't work, maybe a woven fiber reinforced phenolic will do the job. If it needs to be slippery on the shaft, maybe add a UHMW wear surface. Is there a heat issue? Is positive pressure coolant or lubricant part of a solution?
@PETER please see the question below. I'm just happy to see another video. I was worried something happened as it's been a long interval between streams. Looks like a good solution for now. ??? Please don't take this the wrong way. I expect you're going to be very successful with the Raptor. Not to be morbid, but do you have a communication plan in place if something does happen to you? I'm not just referring too an accident in the Raptor either. It could be any fatal incident (Auto, Health, Fire, Tornado, etc.) I'd be really bummed if something did happen and everything on your channel just went silent. I've never heard you mention anything regarding a significant other. I'm not attempting to be an insurance sales person, (I'm not) It just would be good to have a plan. Perhaps a pre-made video with instructions for someone to post on how to get information and any details you choose to share. This is more personal than I would normally post on this type of forum, and a simple response (if you choose too) would be welcome. I do understand if you don't care to share. Hopefully not pissing you off, Mo-
I must confess my ignorance, but what kind of load would be applied to this Delrin bushing ? How long do you expect it to last under load? would it make sense to obtain proof that it will indeed stand said load long enough for the desired flight time by testing it statically ? what would be the typical consequence of failure of the Delrin bushing, how critical when in flight ?
@@elishiner9818 which means no propulsion (i.e. no ability to maintain altitude)? my other worry would be to investigate precisely why the metallic bushing failed (axial load? ) I looked that portion of the video again, intuitively seems that the thrust goes through this bushing/ring, a bit like an hydraulic annular clutch in car engine, with the difference that the regular position is pressure on to get some thrust... one should be able to compute the thurst reaction on the bushing/bearing I think. And if the thrust of the aircraft is indeed applied to the Delrin piece (with a leveraging effect to be calculated in order to obtain pressure at the Delrin level), I would definitely test it 10 hours on land and inspect before flying with it , even just around the airfield... If a lateral bearing contact has resulted in this failure, it may be from contacting because of improper longitudinal guidance, a bronze bushing may help at least momentarily, and the failure mode of that may be less catastrophic than that of Delrin, yet possibly not sufficient (but again, if the propulsion depends on it, a proper analysis of potential failures appears necessary to me)
When you have any failure, engine, transmission, etc., you have to replace lines, coolers, etc., or super flush big time. I guess you are not a mechanic.
glad to see the new video, having withdraws again!!! must have videos..... glad to see problems being tackled!!! another 1.0 attabits for attitude!!! keep it up!!! can't wait for sunday edition!!!
Great to see you again, don't get frustrated about the oil seal, it's not a big deal and it will be done and you'll continue the tests, so keep going and see you soon, cheers
Curious abou the production plan? Is there going to be a second prototype with all known issues corrected and tested before going straight to customer aircraft builds?
When are we going to see more updates? I miss seeing your progress. By the way, I ran across another video that mentioned someone building the RAPTOR *you?) was also designing and building a 2-seat. Is that you? Please update us. thanks, Bill
Thanks for being an inspiration and for showing the path to build an aircraft as well. Building an aircraft from scratch is an ideia I have and hopefully I will be able to share with you guys where on CZcams.
How about a temp sensor in that area? There was an earlier comment about the new heat exhaust vents being forward of this area possibly reducing the cooling air rearward.
Have you ever considered getting professional engineering help? I had such great hopes for your project...I was hoping to own one someday....but seeing all these mistakes you make from lack of knowledge, I'd pass on a Raptor. Seriously, for what you ahve spent making bad choices on materials, on lack of knowledge, on poor quality items items and redoing poor engineering (or no engineering), you could have paid for an engineer and done it right the first time.
@@waynehardy66 Qualified engineers and experienced designers can suggest material choices and design approaches to minimize risk of failure in testing, as we have seen on the last flight, the glide ratio of this aircraft with the prop stopped is not optimal.
Go over to the HBA forums and watch the engineers fumble around like children and constantly bicker and lie. He’s tried listening to them but they are too unhinged to work with.
May I ask what vehicle you sourced your engine from? I have a 3.0 tdi in a 2010 vw Touareg. I’d really love to put it in something like an old chevy blazer. You have the only video I’ve found with a swap.
Hopefully you got every thing dialed in . Any thought of running a gear box of some type. Maybe a boat V drive gear box as was used on the E racer home built canard aircraft.
@@dangryder6050 General Aviation was taken over, 'restructured', Shortly after the Great Hoax of two-thousand one. Insurance became such a liability, groups like Wings Over Carolina had to form large insurance pool. In some ways it's good, community based witch hunters knew everyone 'habits', then witch trials became about 'the drama club'. Today the term is DVC. Men getting legally raked over the coals for resources, what's new. It was a major attack against the individual, by the state. Married ppl DGF, they're not individuals. Nope, something that expensive is such an effective tool of coercion, it's going to be around until made financially irrational.
Hmm. Millions of automatic transmissions are made around the world with similar interfaces between rotating and static pieces, rotating seals, etc. It is usually done with steel on steel or steel on cast iron by centering the rotating part on the fixed part with a couple bronze bushings, maintain clearance, and teflon seal rings between channels. Works great.
Delrin? in a hot oil. Delrin with these threads in it might be strong enough for at room temp, but at 250-300 F it will be marginal indeed. Maybe a metal bushing set in the plastic will spread out the load from the oil connectors enough, maybe not. Then, under hot oil and internal pressure of several hundred psi, we can expect the Delrin part to be inflated. Expect another engine emergency soon.
I also like the bronze bushing idea.
Even more reasons to remove the redrive from the engine oil loop. Temps would be far lower and gear lube or hydraulic transmission oil could be used instead of motor oil.
I don't know that I would use a Delrin bushing in that application. It's not just the heat but also the vibration. Have you thought about a bronze bushing?
low oil pressure wreaking havoc
I didn't see a video of it but did you end up going through everything that oil touched after the engine failure? There's almost certainly metal particulate in every single part that had engine oil in it and you may find that you're going to keep killing things unless it's all thoroughly flushed or replaced.
It's called gauling or friction welding
Peter,
I sure do admire your persistence, you are truly an inspiration.
For that application, delrin just seems wrong to me; I don't think tolerances on that type of plastic can be very well machined, and I'm concerned about it's tendency to soften at elevated temperatures. I believe the max long-term operational temperature for it's use is about 185F.
Perhaps a better material for this application would be bearing bronze (954 Bronze)? It's machinability is excellent, it can be machined to very close tolerances, it is self-lubricating, and it won't foul or gall to the redrive shaft.
Either way, keep your chin up, there's a LOT of us out here rooting for you!
V/r,
Jon
Peter et.al. I really appreciate your straightforward, no-nonsense approach to identify an issue, share it, and work to resolve it. This approach builds confidence in the project and your approaches; it also builds respect in the community. This isn't done for marketing, but in fact, has a very positive effect on the intended audience. Keep it up! Kevin
More clearance and Teflon sealing rings that’s my thoughts and has been for quite awhile keep on keeping on thanks Peter
Teflon? You mean that stuff the old men on HBA mocked like children? It’s amazing what an anti aging effect is has on their brains.
Peter could you not just buy a manufactured drive from an experienced producer and get on with the rest of the build ????
I would agree with Robin Szemeti's comment regarding Delrin's load bearing capacity and wear specs. Delrin - Acetal Homopolymer gets compromised at elevated temps, fine for prototype and R&D, but not a great material choice IMHO. If you fly with a Delrin bearing as you propose, it would need to be inspected before and after every flight to be anywhere near safe... There are many other materials which would be better suited to this application. You are doing a great service to the general and experimental aviation community with your work and dedication. You mentioned an airport move in the video? Do you care to share the new location?
What is the oil transfer bearing tolerance gap to the shaft? Lycoming uses an extended length main bearing with oil transfer slot. Continental uses a floating two piece oil transfer collar that is separate from the main bearings. The tolerance is very tight and precise.
Peter, I added a comment to your last video, but is was a week after all others, so I am not sure if you saw it. Please look at the you tube video "What's wrong with Raptor's compound turbo system?" I believe you will find it very interesting. Then you can decide if you need to work on that.
Yea that popped up randomly in my feed, was a very informative video.
That video is mathematically illiterate. He’s not going to get anything useful from someone who confuses completely different terms like pressure and air mass.
Now that you have changed the prop collar to a non-metallic material, you should go ahead and separate the propeller oiling system from the engine oiling system. Then you can use a gear rated oil in the redrive and prop and keep the engine oil as required for the diesel engine. That would keep high temps out of the redrive and prop as well as stabilize the engine oil system volume. A small tank can be installed to capture the extra gear oil that comes back from the prop at flat pitch.
That metal part was working fine untill there was no oil pressure.
You're still in the test phase, Peter - not just the myriad of parts in the aircraft, but also your solution managment and patience. Can't wait to see her in the air again.
Curious… are you required to go through a similar process of certification... like the experimental aircraft people? Specifically, they are required to get 40 hours within a specified geographic area. And, if something gets changed that would affect The flying characteristics of the airplane, They have to go back to phase 1 of the certification, and get five hours on the particular change.
Compare the thermal coefficiencies between your shaft and oil ring. There is some incompatibility issues due to expansion differences. Ideally you'll want them to expand at the same rate maintaining constant clearances. Just remember the Blackbird has gaps in its skin for this very reason. Once warmed up at cruising speed the fuel tanks are sealed up; but cooled off and on the ground it leaks like a sieve.
Make a firm commitment to Quality in parts, labor and everything you do. The Raptor brand must be dedicated to Quality as job one. Keep pushing....
Curious... are you await of a video on CZcams, where the author (sounds like he is versed in the subject) speaks about the issue of turbocharging and particular where your project is using the wrong size turbochargers for your Raptor engine? If you have not seen it, let me know, and I will find the vLog.
Sorry if I am bringing up a sore subject... I have never heard of this before. I admire you for taking us through the process.
I saw the vid. Guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
That video is great, the guy knows what he's talking about
He says the primary turbo has to be much larger to generate the required power at FL25 and shows the charts and math. He has 45 years of experience in auto and aircraft turbocharging including turbocharged auto engines in aircraft. Here's the link: czcams.com/video/IiGEoQpcjos/video.html
@@MyUtubefreak I saw that video. I think it's a good one. I've also read comments for car engineers who said similar things. The sizes of a two stage turbo have to be carefully considered.
If the Delrin doesn't work, maybe a woven fiber reinforced phenolic will do the job.
If it needs to be slippery on the shaft, maybe add a UHMW wear surface. Is there a heat issue? Is positive pressure coolant or lubricant part of a solution?
@PETER please see the question below.
I'm just happy to see another video. I was worried something happened as it's been a long interval between streams.
Looks like a good solution for now.
???
Please don't take this the wrong way. I expect you're going to be very successful with the Raptor.
Not to be morbid, but do you have a communication plan in place if something does happen to you?
I'm not just referring too an accident in the Raptor either. It could be any fatal incident (Auto, Health, Fire, Tornado, etc.) I'd be really bummed if something did happen and everything on your channel just went silent. I've never heard you mention anything regarding a significant other. I'm not attempting to be an insurance sales person, (I'm not) It just would be good to have a plan. Perhaps a pre-made video with instructions for someone to post on how to get information and any details you choose to share.
This is more personal than I would normally post on this type of forum, and a simple response (if you choose too) would be welcome. I do understand if you don't care to share.
Hopefully not pissing you off,
Mo-
Nothing to worry about there mate. 👍
I must confess my ignorance, but what kind of load would be applied to this Delrin bushing ? How long do you expect it to last under load? would it make sense to obtain proof that it will indeed stand said load long enough for the desired flight time by testing it statically ? what would be the typical consequence of failure of the Delrin bushing, how critical when in flight ?
I believe if it fails then he will loose the ability to adjust the prop from flat to course pitch
@@elishiner9818 which means no propulsion (i.e. no ability to maintain altitude)?
my other worry would be to investigate precisely why the metallic bushing failed (axial load? ) I looked that portion of the video again, intuitively seems that the thrust goes through this bushing/ring, a bit like an hydraulic annular clutch in car engine, with the difference that the regular position is pressure on to get some thrust... one should be able to compute the thurst reaction on the bushing/bearing I think. And if the thrust of the aircraft is indeed applied to the Delrin piece (with a leveraging effect to be calculated in order to obtain pressure at the Delrin level), I would definitely test it 10 hours on land and inspect before flying with it , even just around the airfield...
If a lateral bearing contact has resulted in this failure, it may be from contacting because of improper longitudinal guidance, a bronze bushing may help at least momentarily, and the failure mode of that may be less catastrophic than that of Delrin, yet possibly not sufficient (but again, if the propulsion depends on it, a proper analysis of potential failures appears necessary to me)
When you have any failure, engine, transmission, etc., you have to replace lines, coolers, etc., or super flush big time. I guess you are not a mechanic.
Heat and load will destroy Delrin.
glad to see the new video, having withdraws again!!! must have videos..... glad to see problems being tackled!!! another 1.0 attabits for attitude!!! keep it up!!! can't wait for sunday edition!!!
Great to see you again, don't get frustrated about the oil seal, it's not a big deal and it will be done and you'll continue the tests, so keep going and see you soon, cheers
Curious abou the production plan? Is there going to be a second prototype with all known issues corrected and tested before going straight to customer aircraft builds?
When are we going to see more updates? I miss seeing your progress. By the way, I ran across another video that mentioned someone building the RAPTOR *you?) was also designing and building a 2-seat. Is that you? Please update us. thanks, Bill
Thanks for being an inspiration and for showing the path to build an aircraft as well. Building an aircraft from scratch is an ideia I have and hopefully I will be able to share with you guys where on CZcams.
How about a temp sensor in that area? There was an earlier comment about the new heat exhaust vents being forward of this area possibly reducing the cooling air rearward.
Delryn is a nice material. It has a nice self lubricating quality. I use it in my boat and marine fabrication applications.
Delryn was the name of my first wife; however, she did not have the same qualities as the material.
Have you ever considered getting professional engineering help? I had such great hopes for your project...I was hoping to own one someday....but seeing all these mistakes you make from lack of knowledge, I'd pass on a Raptor.
Seriously, for what you ahve spent making bad choices on materials, on lack of knowledge, on poor quality items items and redoing poor engineering (or no engineering), you could have paid for an engineer and done it right the first time.
Even proper qualified designers and engineers don't get it right first time mate! That's what testing and development is for.
@@waynehardy66 Qualified engineers and experienced designers can suggest material choices and design approaches to minimize risk of failure in testing, as we have seen on the last flight, the glide ratio of this aircraft with the prop stopped is not optimal.
Yes they can, but the point is that they don't always get it right first time! Aviation history is littered with such examples
All engineering projects have problems. What you are seeing is par for the course.
Go over to the HBA forums and watch the engineers fumble around like children and constantly bicker and lie. He’s tried listening to them but they are too unhinged to work with.
May I ask what vehicle you sourced your engine from? I have a 3.0 tdi in a 2010 vw Touareg. I’d really love to put it in something like an old chevy blazer. You have the only video I’ve found with a swap.
Hopefully you got every thing dialed in . Any thought of running a gear box of some type. Maybe a boat V drive gear box as was used on the E racer home built canard aircraft.
You have the patience of a Saint!
Always do your best and never give up!
great job peter. I live near sacramento & work in the bay area. would love to come see her fly when you get out here.
Think about the millions of dollars have been spent converting auto engines and eventually they all have failed
How many people run there diesel car motors at 4k rpm all day
Good work keep it up! Love you!
I hope it works out for you!
Made here in the US? Somehow I assumed you were in Australia.
The U.S. is one of only a few countries that allow experimental aircraft, and custom parts tend to be easier to source.
@@cheerdiver I get that. But I could have sworn that the testing etc. in previous videos were not in the US. My mistake.
@@cheerdiver Not for long. Greta Thunberg and Joe Biden are well on the way to outlawing general aviation
@@dangryder6050 and Hugo Chávez
@@dangryder6050 General Aviation was taken over, 'restructured', Shortly after the Great Hoax of two-thousand one.
Insurance became such a liability, groups like Wings Over Carolina had to form large insurance pool. In some ways it's good, community based witch hunters knew everyone 'habits', then witch trials became about 'the drama club'. Today the term is DVC.
Men getting legally raked over the coals for resources, what's new.
It was a major attack against the individual, by the state. Married ppl DGF, they're not individuals.
Nope, something that expensive is such an effective tool of coercion, it's going to be around until made financially irrational.
Keep at it, you're in uncharted territory!
"Other ideas, going into production" (@ 2:35) .... Hmmm, maybe electric?
So jealous 🥺
Delrin is da shit! 😃👍
Graphite impregnated bronze ?
Great idea.