Will my Subwoofer work Infinite Baffle?
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- čas přidán 6. 10. 2017
- How will your sub perform in an infinite baffle setup? Check it out here!
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I have done tons of IB setups in cars and a couple home ones with anything from a single and a pair of 13W7s, a single and a pair of 12W6s, a pair of IDMax 15s, AE IB15s, SBP15s, and on and on. I’ve personally had 12 IB setups. As long as my as the car allows I will never go back to a box. In a home, sometimes a large box low tuned ported setup is hard to beat. I think IB always has the potential to sound more natural though, when the setup is designed well.
I have to mention that it’s a myth that the Q has to be at least .7. The lower the Q, the quicker, tighter, and the deeper the bass with less power. I forgot about my Dynaudio sub with a Q around .3 that was just amazing.
The cabin and trunk will usually drive up the Q a little bit vs a house but I always vented the trunks to make sure it didn’t try to act as a leaky box that could change Q over excursion.
The way I look at IB and using ANY sub for IB being ok is this.... A sealed box is like a high pass filter. I’m mechanically restricts excursion more and more the lower the frequency. It also LOWERS control (the motors control over the cone) by raising the Q. It DRASTICALLY reduces efficiency the lower the frequency. So sure, you need to protect the from over excursion but killing efficiency is not the way to do it. Instead of using the box to physically restrict the cone, let it move freely (IB) and use your high pass filter or subsonic on the amp to so the sub won’t destroy itself at full output. Now you’ve reduced the power at lower frequencies to reduce cone movement instead of running a ton of power and physically restricting it.
The biggest problem is people don’t realize that the box REDUCES cone control. Most thing a box gives better cone control. It causes overshoot as evidenced by raising the system Q (QTC). While it’s always nice to have lots of excursion for IB, it’s no more necessary than with a sealed box as long as you tune it correctly. The easiest way of saying it is if your sub has 16mm of linear travel and that’s where you want it to stop, why wouldn’t you want it to hit that 16mm with say 200w at 30hz IB vs 1,000w in a sealed box to hit that same 16mm. With the same sized sub, the output will be be same at a given excursion whether it takes 200w or 1,000w to reach that excursion.
While Ives used some her expensive subs, IB will make cheap subs sound great as well, the kind of subs that typically have smaller motors.
Myself and everyone that has heard my setups have loved the .3 Qts Dynaudio and .45 (going from memeory) W6 and the W7s being about the same as well. So quick, punchy, and amazingly effortless deep bass with little power. Before tuning it took only 180w to put the single 12W6 near its mechanical maximum and way past Xmax. That’s awesome because the efficiency in the lower octave went up so much without the box that I needed 1/3 the power. To get loud I had the amps subsonic on as a last level of defense but tuning was done with the processor so I could still feed the sub it’s 400 or so watts for most of the bass and subbass range with a taper below 40hz to keep excursion under control. The subjective difference in sound quality with the same subs, amps, and car, In IB, BP, sealed, and port e was night and day. Once I turned the power on, 10 seconds later I was like this is what natural, accurate, and effortless bass is supposed to sound like. In a car it’s also nice to keep 90% or your trunk space even with a pair of 15s.
Originally, all I wanted to say is don’t worry about Q within reason. Home or car, there’s a small difference in efficiency at some frequencies but the lower Qts is going to have more cone control and the desired response can be tuned. Also, not trying to get into Motor vs suspension control but some of my favorites have been a very compliant suspension with a very strong motor and light cone when going IB. An artificially stiff suspension is not the way to protect your sub IB. Let the motor control the cone, let the suspension become invisible at any excursion level, and tune it so it doesn’t self destruct from over excursion. I particularly love the W6 and W7 subs for IB use. Very good suspension. A strong and linear motor, and a very quiet suspension/motor. Hope I didn’t offend anyone, just my opinions. There are many ways to do this obviously. No time to proofread, I hope this is not a total disaster as most posts are from my phone.
Hello Matt, I have a 14.9cu feet of space in my Mitsubishi ASX ( small SUV) and I installed 2 Boston Acoustics 12.5LF subwoofers. Just thinking what value of subsonic filter should I use. My subwoofers are facing upwards towards the rear windshield. The Bostons has a qts of 0.57 and a FS of 31Hz on free air. Can you provide a comment on this matter please?
No offense. Actually was the answer ive been looking for. One guy. Many tries. With data. Thank you
Shouldn't you want a maximally stiff cone for minimal physical breakup/distortion, paired with an ultra-soft surround and a soft to medium spider setup so that the VC never scraps on the magnet or w/e? Or does the magnetic force alone prevent scrape?
A Q of about 0.5 might be ideal if the fs is low enough but highly over damped would require significant Eq which stresses the driver and amplifier.
great video, have seen some really strange i.b. set ups. this sheds light on what designs work
Great vid simple and to the point.
"falls wall"? Or false wall? Sorry, I had to bust your hump. Great video. I've wanted to do an infinite baffle for 20+ years since I was at a product launch for the Lanza OA (open air) series of drivers. Amazing!
Perfect, a good simple way to explain it. You should do one explaining further, like what the f value is, how they determine the q and more detail on using free air "infinite baffle"
F3 will be the same as the FS of the driver (Free air resonance).
I bought a couple of $11 10" titans just for fun an after extensive in depth exhaustive testing for about 30min I came to the conclusion the best enclosure is a trash can! 😛 Preferably sealed!
Haha! That is hilarious. I bought one of them and that was my thought as well. 🤣
You bought the wrong size. I made an infinite baffle sub in my living room with 4 15" titans and it blows people's minds. Shakes the whole living room 😃 not exaggerating at all. I am thinking about an upgrade though because sometimes they overextend. 🤷
Thanks
Just make sure your driver has a Qts close to 0.7, the adjoining space should have at least 3x the VAS ; ideally 10 x VAS.
I am not sure why you believe the QTS should be over 0.7?, values above that would give you a bump in the lower frequencies and not the flat response you want.
In order to extend the frequency even lower you need a Linkwitz transform circuit normally used to extend closed box response; but it will still work because a IB is still second order.
Typically the ideal flat response is 0.707. ;)
@@lio1234234 Qtc of 0.707 yes, but that's including enclosure of course.
Thanks for posting this video. Do you have any more videos on the recommended installation of the drivers to address cancelling the forces of drivers, techniques for tuning the speakers, placing the speakers behind acoustically transparent screens (will the screen shake), other concerns?
Regarding using the adjoining room as the "enclosure", a room that is 20 ft x 10 ft is probably not 200 ft³. You need the ceiling height to calculate VOLUME (ft³). 20 ft x 10 ft x ~8 ft = 1,600 ft³. I haven't played around with WinISD, but will selecting an enclosure that is 200 ft³ vs 1,600 ft³ make a big difference?
Are open baffle dipole subs 2 X drivers. Are they in phase or out of phase?
I keep getting mixed information. I have a CT sounds 8" Strato that has an 8.5 qts & CT suggestions a sealed enclosure of .30. Will it sound good in ib setup?
I like the SPL graphs much better than the frequency response because you can see efficiency. I think WinISD is incorrect for large sealed box but I can't prove it. WinISD is dubious in any case because it hasn't been updated in 100 years and one version simulates Le versus the other doesn't. If you have a high quality subwoofer, try it with infinite baffle regardless of Thiele/Small parameters, the sound can be just fine. Most advice about infinite baffle suitability relies on EBP, not Q. It's best to get Dickason's latest cookbook in any case.
The best infinite baffle sub woofer that I know is dynaudio esotar2 1200 and the Qts is 0.34
Sorry but the driver Dynaudio esotar2 1200 is not made for free air configuration.
honestly, high qts is great BUT if you have cone area and the power handling is high, you can overcome qts. Anything between .35(ported)-.7(free air) will work You just need a dsp to eq because there will be so much low end. with lower qts. Below .35 is really for sealed which absoluted will not be good for sure
Will a Sundown NSV5 15 be a good subwoofer for infinite baffle?
I wanna see this lol
You should have also showed the excursion and power handling graphs.
I thought about it, but since I showed it in another video, I thought it might be overkill. Plus the video was already getting long. Maybe I'll make a Part 2 sometime to go over that...
It's just that power handling and excursion are really important on IB setups and I think it's important to take it into consideration while planing an IB setup.
I agree. On second thought, I probably should have added that on there. Corrado, you're making me do more work ;) I'll add a second part later this week. I think your right.
:)
Yes. Easy question
WidthXdepth doesn't equal volume my guy. Do you think fs has a part in the response as well? Are there more things to consider than freq resp?
Ha, you are right! I never realized I said that until you just pointed it out! That is a hilarious mistake. Doh! Glad my videos have change a lot in 3+ years. As far as FS goes, no I don't think that matters much. In the words of the late great Jeff Bagby, "There is nothing magical about Fs or its relationship to the tuning frequency Fb. For some drivers and alignments the correct Fb will be below Fs and and for others it will be above Fs." It is best to always model your enclosure and see if it will give you your desired results.
The lower the Q in general the lower the fs needs to be.
As others have said, the Qts rating needing to be above .7 is not true at all. Many of the most highly regarded IBs are well below that.
Another audio website, when I look at their recommendations for free air subwoofers, all of them is .4 to .6
I’m confused.
I ask the same. Acoustic Elegance has dedicated IB subs with those QTS numbers
Anything under .7 is FREE AIR sub
@@gradycrislerjr40 between 2:20- 2:37 he just said higher qts makes good for free air design
Any subwoofer can work infinite baffle
Why is it that Acoustic Elegance dedicated IB subs have QTS' less then 0.75?
It's always good to remember these are rules of thumb. It's always best to test and simulate.
@@Toid Ok thank you
.5 is critically damped. It will work well if fs is low enough. The lower the Q the farther above fs that the roll off will begin. Something to consider is matching the roll off to the room gain. If room gain begins at 50 Hz ideally you would like the roll off to begin near there. If it starts too low you may get boomy bass.
Dang falls walls
High Q, high Xmax, low fs.
Infinite baffle is nothing more than what a driver will do free air.
The selection of drivers for this infinite baffle video is questionable at best. Take with a grain of salt