2013 - Chris Johnson - "How the Book of Mormon Destroyed Mormonism"
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- čas přidán 24. 10. 2013
- *There are a few technical issues with the video that need to be fixed- we hope to have an updated version soon*
Chris Johnson's website and research: askreality.com/hidden-in-plain...
To view Chris Johnson's youtube channel describing his exit from the LDS church:
• 1.0 - My LDS Journey -...
To view Chris Johnson's "I am an Ex Mormon" video:
www.iamanexmormon.com/2011/05/...
To read "The late war, between the United States and Great Britain, from June 1812, to February 1815 : written in the ancient historical style" (1816) by Gilbert J. Hunt:
archive.org/details/latewarbe...
To read "The First Book of Napoleon" (1809):
archive.org/details/firstbook...
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exmormonfoundation.org/
Why is it that the Mormons commenting never refute what is said in these videos they just attack the presenter. That is a huge red flag showing that there are major issues with the church. I mean seriously stop attacking the guy and refute his arguments like an adult.
+clintw490
There is a saying, "Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics."
A fundamental principle of a research study is to validate your methodology. For example, if you compare the Book of Mormon text with thousands of books printed before 1830, and you discover "significant associations" with certain books, you could make the false conclusion that these books influenced the BOM text.
NOPE! You have to go one step further, and then compare the BOM with texts printed AFTER 1830 to see if you get similar results. This is the GIGO principle -- garbage in, garbage out. If you get a similar result with these later books, you find yourself in the GARBAGE zone. You earlier conclusion is flawed!
Note that he emphasized that he analyzed "all of these books" -- over 100,000, but he very quickly mentioned that these books were published BEFORE 1830. He laughs, he twitches, he knows that he is in the garbage zone, but he is an anitMormon and he doesn't care that he is speaking garbage.
Mormons USUALLY speak like little children rather than engage with the maturity called for when dealing with issues raised.
On very rare occasions you bibleers actually get some gospel aspects right. Your conclusions are wrong and you miss the point. It is the guy who is the idiot. Like you. You might tell that to your bible thumper buddies who continually attack Joseph Smith when you don't have truth. We active LDS don't like you drawing your wildly inaccurate and stupid statements.
clintw490 if you cannot refute the information,all you have left is to attack the messenger.
cdowis: A sure sign of someone who is not able to argue substantively is that he will attack the person rather than the information. Calling Chris "anti-Mormon" is just an ad hominem attack. It will become very clear to anyone who reads "The Late War" that it reads and sounds very much like the Book of Mormon. And "The Late War" was a readily available book used in New England schools of the day. As to your comment that "if you compare the Book of Mormon text with thousands of books printed before 1830, and you discover "significant associations" with certain books, you could make the false conclusion that these books influenced the BOM text." Well, duh. How could any books written AFTER 1830 "influence the BOM text"?
does this mean I don't get my own planet?
A Mormon getting his or her own planet is a fable that so far, absolutely no one has been able to provide me a quote on (probably because no quotes exist, lol). But then, that's a standard tactic of the anti-Mormonism crowd--all hot air that, when examined closely, suddenly disappears into nothingness. Keep it up, though. You anti-Mormonism types are some of our best missionaries. In fact, my wife (wife-to-be at the time) joined the church as a result of a minister going on a rant when she asked him what he thought of the Mormons. She was in the military at the time. The minister's reply was so full of vitriol, that she decided to check it out for herself. After reading a book about the church written by a member, she called a local Mormon bishop for more information. She attended a meeting, hooked up with the missionaries, and began receiving the discussions. After much prayer and reading the Book of Mormon, she was baptized.
Terry Tippets So she was baptized because she believed in the LDS and not for being convinced that Jesus is the Christ? You do understand that is why people get baptized? It is a proclamation to the world that you believe Jesus is the Christ "and they believed and were baptized" (Acts 8:12).
As far as what you concinder anti-mormon "own planet", I empoly you to tell me a LDS members has never said that.
JesusisGodism The Book of Mormon testifies that Jesus is the Christ, so my wife had no problem with the book. Besides the fact that she cross-referenced scriptures from both books to see if she could find any discrepancies. She found none. She grew up in a Baptist family, and so had a strong belief in Jesus Christ. She told me that she had always felt that there was something missing in the Baptist religion. When she got into the military, she went "church shopping", in an effort to find the missing part. She investigated most of the Christian religions, and some that were non-Christian.
You know the rest of the story.
As for LDS members talking about getting their own planet....I've been in the church for over 60 years now, and _I have never heard any member talk about_ "getting my own planet".
_Never._
Terry Tippets Well Terry, You can see why red flags went up when you said that your wife investigated churches and then was baptized when she found the right one. Those are not reasons to get baptized. There is only one reason.
As far as the whole "own planet" thing. You need to understand that they are people who have done more of 60 years of church as research.
It is a fact that LDS has roots in this topic. Christians did not just pull this out of the sky. Just because you are unaware of that does not mean you can call these people anti-mormon. They did their research and are correct in expressing thier finds.
Dont be so quick to be a judge. In this case you were wrong.
JesusisGodism "Just because you are unaware of that does not mean you can call these people anti-mormon."
I didn't refer to them as anti-Mormon. I referred to them as anti-Mormonism. There's a difference. True anti-Mormons hate everything Mormon, including the people. Anti-Mormonism types just disagree strongly with Mormon doctrine and beliefs, but have no dislike of the Mormon people themselves.
"It is a fact that LDS has roots in this topic."
Of course it is. But...there is still no LDS doctrine stating that each Mormon will be a god of his own planet. Do we believe that the possibility exists that men can become gods some point in the eternities? Yes, we do, but it will be under God's guidance and direction. It's not automatic. That is a far cry from the charge that "when Mormons die, they believe they will be a god of their own planet (as if it were already set in stone).
I was in the MTC when Elder Holland gave that talk. I testified every day on my mission (with visual aids) that if the BOM wasn’t true, Joseph Smith wasn’t a prophet, and God’s authority on the earth wasn’t restored. As soon as I found out that the BOM was plagiarized, I felt NO guilt leaving the LDS church. 2 yes out, and no regrets. It was the hardest, most heartbreaking decision I’ve ever made, but it gave me my life back.
Did you become an atheist or did you find a bible based christian church?
Big mistake...
You have been deceived
Repent Brother repent while you still can...
Watch Tad Calister Book of Mormon man made or God given.
@@jj18057 I needed (and still need) a break from organized religion & anyone promising me certainty. I guess I’m more agnostic?
@@Soy_Preinaugural praying for you 🙏
Jesus offers a relationship, His yoke is easy and burden light.
Religion is what sent JC to the cross.
Thank you for your research. Presentations like this how me to reaffirm to myself that leaving the Church was the best thing I've ever done for myself and my family!
Yet, he’s proven nothing. Just unproven old claims.
I saw a snippet of your research, and bought the Late War, and read it.
It doesn't take a computer to recognize that it is significant.
Having seen the full presentation, I now want to get a copy of the First book of Napoleon.
Thank you for all your hard work. I hope it will be the turning point for many LDS members to realize their faith is mislead.
Rob Bates mislead? Hardly!
Yes, mislead. The book of mormon borrows heavily from secular sources, including these 2 books. If you haven't bothered to read them (they are public domain and can be viewed for free online) then your comment is uninformed.
Rob Bates Have already read into that plagiarism charge! Mormon apologists I noticed call it repetitional prophecy! The question I have for you is who did Ethan Smith plagiarize from to make up View of the Hebrews. Rypaul and others try to say '' Joseph Smith stole from View of the Hebrews to make the Book of Mormon.'' Therefore I ask yalls kind who did Ethan steal from? A number of uncanny things happened along these lines. That is a number of books and events similar to only that which pertains exactly to Mormonism happened around the same time! How would society think this? p.s. again!!.....who did Ethan Smith steal from?
1st, the Late War and the First Book of Napoleon have nothing to do with Ethan Smith. I have read them, and it is obvious that Joseph Smith used these books to make the book of mormon.
2nd, this video specifically debunks the claim that Joseph Smith plagiarized the text of Ethan Smith (at best the backdrop for the 2 books were similar).
Lastly, you bring up an amazingly good point: who did Ethan Smith copy?
Ethan Smith was not unique with his ideas about the blending of the old world and the new. There were several people who wrote stories along these lines, and even some religious folks who postulated similarly. They all have 1 thing in common though- their ideas happened at a time that LDS prophets have said that god's priesthood was not on the earth (apart from John & the 3 Nephites) as well as the Holy Ghost not operating in full and the gift of the holy ghost being entirely absent.
So if your argument is that the people who Joseph Smith plagiarized were also inspired by god, I think you are on shaky ground, especially since the text of the 2 books shown in this video deal with politics and war, not theology (other than using theology as a metaphor for good/evil and thus the opposing sides of the conflict, reflecting the authors' allegiances)
Rob Bates Did not say Joseph Smith or anyone plagiarized! You still fail to recognize that yalls have a hell of a lot of stuff to counter before we get into a serious debate!
Pretty amazing stuff. I've read the Book of Mormon almost 30 times. I know it very well. It's very eery to read from these other books. The tone, phrases and word structure similarities are unmistakable. The Book of Mormon is truly a fictional product of the 19th Century
Get your act together. Chris Johnson himself says that his work proves nothing.
@@richardholmes7199 It doesn't "prove" anything, but when you use some common sense, it's a very reasonable conclusion to draw.
@@ErickMcNerney Explain how you came to that conclusion.
Hi, I read the Book of Mormon 25 times , and started to see things that didn’t make sense. I left the church about 2 years after my mission. All the lie’s just started to pour out really fast. I’m glad this is all on CZcams now. !
I busted a few all nighters prior to presenting, hence the lip smacking. Information over delivery. I promise to provide a concise and updated version of this in the AskReality series soon.
To summarize the whole presentation:
LDS scholars use parallels to prove the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon, but I always wondered how significant the parallels were? Shouldn't each parallel be on a scale showing "impact" level? Without such a scale, parallels can be found for everything and prove anything is true. When such a scale is devised we found that the parallels FOR the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon fade into obscurity, and the parallels AGAINST the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon become HIGH IMPACT events. I encourage you to be curious and question everything.
askreality why isn't this "scale" every presented? you mention "these word matches or more significant because they computer said so" but never actually SHOW the computer saying so, who programmed they computer, how the computer came to said conclusion, or even how much more significant each example is then the other. you just show a meaningless linear graph and expect us to accept that. (give the fact that the other graph you showed have been thoroughly disproven, I can understand your reluctance to share the primary sources, and instead rely solely on appeal to authority)
+askreality
Enjoy
The Mormon faith is based upon a broken foundation. I encouraged honest Mormons to get your hands on the original publication of the book of Mormon, printed by E. B. Grandin in 1830. Joseph Smith is labeled as “Author and Proprietor.” The later editions have rewritten this work and made sure to correct the title page with “translated by Joseph Smith.” Why the change? It is because the word that Joseph Smith used distracted from the so-called claims of inspiration. Sirs, the publication that Joseph Smith approved of has been edited extensively by the modern Mormon church because of their understanding of the many errors recorded within it. But Joseph Smith chose the label “Author and Proprietor.” Do you know what a proprietor is? It is the legal owner of something. Hence, Joseph Smith spoke of being the legal owner of what is supposed to be the word of God! This was changed because it doesn’t fit with the way those real apostles of old spoke of God’s word. Paul, for example, never signed off as the proprietor of his letters, but rather as a servant of Jesus Christ. He attributed these words as being given and owned by the Holy Spirit and himself as a prisoner of Jesus (see Eph. 3:1-5). The errors in the past-inspired editions are confessed by your modern corrected editions. Does that not disturb you as to the nature of the Mormon religion, that it is itself built upon a broken foundation? Then you have the testimony of three witness. It anticipates that people would not believe it and therefore a written testimony had to be given. Yet God doesn’t need the testimony of men to make His word believable or not. It is the works of Jesus that declare His message from above. Further, your witnesses of the translation left the Mormon church! What does that say about your faith? Again, does it not disturb you that the Mormon church is built on a broken foundation with even broken witnesses? Then you have the testimony of the eight witnesses which again proves that the testimony of the three witnesses were not enough. All of the eight witnesses, except one, were related to Joseph Smith or David Whitmer (David, one of the original three witnesses who left the Mormon church). What kind of witnesses are those? Also, what the eight witnesses claimed was that, “Joseph Smith, Jr. the Author and Proprietor of this work, has shewn unto us the plates of which hath been spoken…” (see 1930 edition). Again, this testimony was also changed in your modern edition to simply “translator.” The original’s and current accounts mean completely different things. A translator is not an author and proprietor! Does it not disturb you that the Mormon church’s foundation is broken? “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruthof it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost” (Moroni 10:4). Faith in the book of Mormon advocates pure subjectivism. You must assume the Book of Mormon is true, and then ask with a sincere heart in prayer. Conversly, the Bible stands on its own merit and does not depend upon the reader to ask God if it is true in a sincere heart. But rather, we are called to know the truth by objectively searching the scriptures, not asking in a prayer (Rom. 10:17; Acts 17:11; etc.). In like contrast, Agrippa knew the prophets were true regardless of his insincerity (Acts 26:26-28). Contrast the “dark corner” in which the book of Mormon came into existence with the that of the scriptures (2Pet. 1:19-21). Does it not disturb you that the Mormon church is built on a broken foundation? • The word “repair” is not correct in Alma 27:8. • 1 Nephi 15:35 makes hell something that the devil prepared rather than what God has made for the devil. A blatant contradiction to Matthew 25:41. • 4 Nephi 6 is filled with useless ramblings to simply say 59 years passed away. Contrast this with 2 Tim. 3:16. • 3 Nephi 28:5 is an example of using an outdated 1611 King James term in 1830. See “durst.” • 3 Neph 28:4-8 is an absurd and false statement that 3 disciples would live on earth until Jesus comes again. Well, that hasn’t happened. • Ether 2:16-25 has counsel to place a hole in the top and “BOTTOM” of the barges for them to breathe. This is foolish advice and would cause them to sink. • Helaman 14:20, three days of darkness upon the land contradicts the bible’s 3 hours of darkness (Lk. 23:44; Matt. 27:45). • Alma 13:18 has Melchizedek reigning under his father. Bible: no father (Heb. 7:1-3; 15, 16). Others could be pointed out. But these are sufficient proofs that the Mormon church is built on a broken foundation. I asked other “elders” to answer these and like questions and they have only responded in silence. The very fact that you consider yourselves “elders” though consistent with the Mormon faith, is in direct opposition to the word of God. For you being “elders,” is a testimony against the legitimacy of the Mormon church. Bible elders are married men with faithful children (see Titus 1:5ff). You are neither married nor do you have children. You are using a biblical name in a non-biblical way.
Wyoming Horseman it will take me a little while to read all the scriptures you reference, and respond properly, but I will be more then happy to answer your challenge. expect my respond by the week's end.
kradrol The Headless Horseman of the Apocalypse is leading you down a dark alley.
THERE IS NO MORMON FAITH.
THERE IS NO MORMON CHURCH.
THE SAINTS HAVE BEEN TOLD NUMEROUS TIMES, BY THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, THE NAME OF THE CHURCH.
THERE IS NOTHING BROKEN IN THE DOCTRINES OF THE RESTORATION BUT THE RESOLVE OF THE SAINTS TO FOLLOW THE SCRIPTURES WITH EXACTNESS. THAT SIMPLE MAKES THE SAINTS HUMAN. EVERYONE BORN OF MAN IS A SINNER. EVEN THE HEADLESS HORSEMAN OF THE APOCALPSE.
WYO MING COULD BE SPEAKING CHINESE.
BobMcDanielRobertson
I hear the twilight zone theme song every time you post.
Take your med's Bobby
i love this but the asmr mouth noises are driving me absolutely up the damn WALL
Ezra Lee, me too, I love this topic, but that saliva in his mouth is driving me crazy, I just can't handle it; it is just so loud!, he needs to drink some water every now and then😤
what does ASMR mean?
I was unable to watch this all the way through for this exact reason. A lovely presentation marred by a microphone so doused in spittle that not all the words are intelligible. Pity.
I thumbed DOWN this video 2 years ago, Now I changed to a thumbs UP!! 2 Years ago I was starting to explore and NOTHING could convince me of the errors. Now that I have Allowed myself to look at things with Reason I am confident Joseph compiled all these sources to make the BOM. What a great video! BY THE WAY, I believe he put all his compiled notes into a hat and read out of the hat. The rock was his distraction and magic trick, As he read what he had already been compiling over years and years!!
@@seanchristy1836 ONE thing for sure, the "one true church of Christ" is not Joe Smith's cult of Mammon.
@@seanchristy1836 czcams.com/video/N4cjBUeHHgU/video.html
"Everybody Loves Me, Baby" (AKA, Joseph Smith's Song)
One, two, three, four!
Fortune has me well in hand, armies wait at my command
My heart lies in a foreign land buried deep beneath the sand
The angels guide my ev'ry tread, my enemies are sick or dead
But all the victories I've led haven't brought you to my bed
[CHORUS:]
You see, everybody loves me, baby, what's the matter with you?
Won't ya tell me what did I do to offend you?
Now the purest, white, exceedingly fair and delightsome race
I'll breed with thee to live in my theocracy
And the highest human pedigree awaits the first-born boy baby
I'll have my face on ev'ry coin engraved, the anarchists will be
enslaved
My own flag will be forever waved by the grateful people I have saved
[CHORUS:]
You see, everybody loves me, baby, what's the matter with you?
Won't ya tell me what did I do to offend you?
Now, no land is beyond my claim when Native's land is seized in Deseret's name
By evil men who rob and maim, if war is hell, I'm not to blame!
Why, you can't blame me, I'm Heaven's child, I'm the second son of Mary mild
And I'm twice removed from Oscar Wilde, but he didn't mind, why, he just smiled
Yes, and the ocean parts when I walk through, and the clouds dissolve and the sky turns blue
I'm held in very great value by everyone I meet but you
'cause I've used my talents as I could, I've done some bad, I've done some good
I did a whole lot better than they thought I would so, c'mon and treat me like you should!
Because everybody loves me, baby, what's the matter with you?
Tell me what did I do to offend you? (whoo, yeah!)
Everybody loves me, baby, what's the matter with you?
Tell me what did I do to offend you?
Yeah, everybody loves me, baby, what's the matter with you?
Tell me what did I do to offend you?
Donald McLean (Paraphrased)
@@seanchristy1836 Why does there have to be a specific religion deemed the one true church? The only true church in existence is not on the earth now. All churches here are heavily influenced by men. When Christ returns, He'll bring His church with Him. Until then, leave Babylon (and all of her churches) and turn to the Lord.
czcams.com/video/xe8Dzu5egHk/video.html - I’d love to know your thoughts on this
@@seanchristy1836 I'd like to see your proof that there is a single true church in place (not using a book that has been proven unreliable/false over and over), and that men are not easily influenced by money and power. The Bible tells us men's hearts will lead us astray.
Jesus said, in Mark 7:20-23
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
We're also told in the Old Testament that the heart is deceitful. Ecclesiastes 7:20-21
20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
21 Also take no heed unto all words that are spoken; lest thou hear thy servant curse thee:
And I know, since you are being an apologist for the "one true church" that you likely don't believe in the Bible as a reliable source. I would encourage you to go look up how reliable it really is. If I remember correctly, in the many parts and pieces of the ancient records the Bible is comprised of, there is an average of 800 copies per verse. If changes were made, they would be easily identified. The changes and mistakes of the KJV (which is where Joe Smith got many passages for the Book of Mormon) were translation errors that didn't change any doctrine.
Additionally, I asked a question you don't seem to want to, or can't, answer. Why does there need to be one religion deemed the true church?
Thank you for freeing me from this cult. God bless.
@@seanchristy1836 bully
@@seanchristy1836 Those that believe in Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ are the Church. There is no brick and mortar church that is the only true church. That is the devil at work to destroy actual believers in Christ
There are believers all over the World
I pray for Mormons cause they have been led astray from the truth.
You are justified through Faith it is not of your works least any man boast
Ephesians 2:9
@@seanchristy1836 it is you my friend that is delusional. You believe in a book of religious fiction the Book of Mormon. Its fiction and will always be Fiction.
I already answered your question. It certainly is not Mormonism. And I could go on and on about all of Smith's books of fiction and History. But that's not my problem It's yours.
As soon as you let the air out of your puff upness in your behavior you might realize you been taken for a ride that has always been and always will be a Lie
As for a foundation Christ and his Apostles
All those that come unto Christ as believers
are adopted by God and are sons and daughters of Christ. All believers are given Priestship by Christ
I'm his instrument , He is my God
I surrendered to Christ A long time ago
I don't believe you have by your boastful statements
Peace
My Mediator is Christ. He is my Lord and Arthedos
The Holy Bible is 66 books making claim from the first page to the last page that Jesus is the Christ
@@seanchristy1836 I'll bite. You want an answer to your question? "The one true church" is a phrase completely made up by the Mormon church. There is no text anywhere that suggests that Christ organized any sort of church while on the Earth. Let alone set up things like stonemason ceremonies in "great and spacious buildings", or telling people not to drink tea and coffee, or to wear special underwear, or have multiple wives, or have affairs with 17 year old girls, or withhold blessings from people who don't pay their 10% tax, or invest billions of dollars in for-profit real estate while only contributing less than 1% of total income and tithing annually to charity. The list goes on and on and on buddy. Get off of your self imagined high horse that those wrinkly old men have helped you conjure up. If you did an hour of actual research on the validity of Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, Brigham Young, polygamy and polyandry in the church, or really anything else...you would be out of that church in another hour of actually thinking. If you're still capable of doing that after years of being systematically brainwashed into thinking you have "The Only True Church on the Planet".
@@seanchristy1836 There is no "true church" in terms of an organisation, the Kingdom of God is with in. What did Jesus tell the woman at the well? believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
Imagine if the Aztec had steel swords, armor, horses and chariots: the history of North America would look VERY different than it does now. We'd all be tuning into Monday Night Tlachtli, not Monday Night Football. And in our reality shows, the losers would get sacrificed, not sent home!
The winners were sacrificed, it was an honor.
Holy shit that’d be fuckin sick! Just imagine how competitive the games would be!
Do they ride horses? Are steel swords mention after 2 Nephi?
If it looks like a duck and waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck then it must be a duck . . . Unless . . . The "Holy Spirit" tells you it's a frog.
Fantastic presentation!
Or a salamander...🤔
This is a lot of work to disprove something that is self-evidently false.
jesusthroughmary If you were not raised in the LDS church you wouldn't understand friend.
jesusthroughmary Click on my channel and watch the video called ''The Dead sea Scrolls disprove Mormonism???-Really??''
***** Jim, You hate much?
***** '' refuses to look at anything that could possibly prove that the LDS is a fraud because she likes the fairy tale world that she lives in''
Respectfully ,I am so far beyond that, I couldn't know more , any more than I do now that God exists, that Jesus is the Son of God, and the Book of Mormon is exactly what it claims to be, A History of the Lords People anciently. Sure there is plenty of skepticism and so called '' EXPERTS''. ..... I know you will want to ridicule but plz don't You wont be taken serious.
Good day
The Puritans Fled the King of England from religious persecution and set up the Mayflower Compact , the principles this nation was was founded, ...... Seems like history repeats itself cause people dont learn , can't disagree without being disagreeable, or listen or respect others .
4 And now I, the Lord, give unto you a testimony of the truth of these commandments which are lying before you.
5 Your eyes have been upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and his language you have known, and his imperfections you have known;
6 Now, seek ye out of the Book of Mormon, even the least that is in it, and appoint him that is the most wise among you;
7 Or, if there be any among you that shall make one like unto it, then ye are justified in saying that ye do not know that they are true;
8 But if ye cannot make one like unto it, ye are under condemnation if ye do not bear record that they are true.
9 For ye know that there is no unrighteousness in them, and that which is righteous cometh down from above, from the Father of lights.
thank god I left that cult!
Thank god? Thank big data. :P
According to Joseph's mother Lucy, he had a vivid imagination: "Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them."
I would love an update on this work.
I have been a convert for almost 10 years now and I am mad at myself for allowing those ppl to come into my life and make me waste almost 10 years of it believing in a lie, making decisions based on a lie, my marriage and other aspects of my personal life is threatened because of all I have learned lately about that church and I cannot believe how naive me and others around me have been. Over these years I have always had that feeling in my heart that this whole Joseph Smith thing was a lie but as a good member I did not allow myself to question. Still today there are so many people living in the ways that Joseph Smith taught to be the righteous way God wanted us to be and I can't even express how my heart breaks when I think of all of those little girls between 11-16 yrs old that are being raped right now because one day a delusional man said that polygamy is part of God's plan and woman should obey or get destroyed, a lie that for so many became truth. I hope he is burning in hell right now.
What? There is no need to lie and make things up.
Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube''. A video debunking the Egyptologists by presenting proper interpretation. Proper interpretation is Joseph Smith translated in reverse back to a biblical text, the original. Word print analysis supports the Book of Mormon (Google ''Word Print studies of the Book of Mormon FAIR''). The Berkeley Group found a 1 in a 15 trillion chance that Nephi and Alma were written by the same author. This proves Joseph Smith didn't make up the Book of Mormon. Therefore, why did you type ''lie''?
uhm an lip smacking mike too close and nervous dry mouth, smack smack...
Thanks for the comments, but you have misrepresented about 90% of what I said in the presentation. The reason we removed Bible matches was because we were looking for the rare 4 word phrases that did not appear in the Bible, which lead us to "The late war" discovery. We found hundreds of rare 4 word phrases that occurred in the Book of Mormon and The late war, but did not occur in the Bible. Theses finds were statistically significant, have you actually read the research at askreality?
I see that Johnson doesn't have a website up anymore. I'd really love to look at the raw data, especially the chiasmus found in other books. Is there any way I can contact Chris or see the data?
I’m LDS and after watching this video I am still LDS. I have respect to Chris for being very objective in his research and turning down anit-Mormon theories that don’t hold up; it’s very admirable to strive for truth rather than bias.
With the comparisons of phrases and writings, all I came away with was that The Book of Mormon has heavy similarity to writings of the Bible and writings that mimic the Bible (like Napoleon and Late War). And, I don’t know for sure because I’m not God, but if I was having someone translate a book to go along with the Bible, which is already written to move the hearts of man towards Christ, then wouldn’t I have that translated book sound similar? If the Bible is written to speak to people and have them feel the Spirit, wouldn’t the Book of Mormon, a book written for the same purpose, read very much the same?
And at the end of the day, when I read from the Bible and the Book of Mormon, all I learn is how to become more Christlike and love my neighbor. I’ll admit some Mormons kinda fail at this, but that goes to show that not everyone is perfect. If you truly read these books, they preach only good works and intentions that, even if this whole religion is a sham, at least I’m a good person, and even if this church is fake I hope the real God will at least see my attempt to try to learn more and grow to him.
Again, Chris is merely presenting evidence, and though I don’t agree with the conclusion I respect his objectiveness and I hope to keep myself educated on both sides of the argument as someone who is of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Except that there’s nothing you can do to make yourself worthy for God to save you from his wrath. It is not your work, being a “good” person doesn’t save you from God’s wrath. God saves you by His work in Jesus Christ.
@@andreastarks2780 Agreed, never said I saved myself. Doesn't matter how hard I work, without Christ I cannot be saved, only through faith in Him. Faith vs works wasn't really the point of my comment, but I agree with you for sure.
His lip smacking drives me bonkers.
It's ASMR bruh. It gives some people spiritual feelings, and by that I mean that "spine tingling" feeling, which some Mormon Prophets say is the spirit.
Right!!
Makes me want to go grab a snack
I’m 1 min in and I want to die
During the presentation, Chris mentions a book by Charles Anthon, a reference book/pronunciation guide, in which several names in the Book of Mormon appear, and other names close to significant BoM names. What is the name of this book, and can you provide a link to it?
Very simple to explain. One of Joseph Smith's closest companions was a school teacher. Joseph had access to all these books.
@@marcusjackson5837 lmao wrong neighborhood
The publisher Grandin, where the bom was printed had a lending library.
Oliver Cowdery never said he made the book of Mormon even when he left the church. So I don't believe that's how the book of Mormon came about.
@@legacy756 why would Cowdery, a lawyer and a school teacher, ever admit to fraud? His career and livelihoods would have been destroyed. And you're only reading the official church lines. I'm sorry.
@@ningenJMK if their reputation was so important for them then why lie in the first place?
is there textual comparison software available on the Internet?
No it isn't. But you can get online macros that can get some word processing software to do this. Google can do the same thing too.
I worked with this guy who would write papers that I suspected were plagiarized. So I just took parts Of what he wrote, a few paragraphs at a time, and pasted them into Google Search. Viola! I easily found whole passages of what he "wrote" from various online articles- all listed as search results.
BUSTED!!
I have known so many professional people who plagiarize and it is so easy to figure this out- especially if the person produces writing that is very different from how they speak. Everyone of these people now hold prominent positions in major corporations. : (
Am I the only one that honestly didn't have a problem with the lip-smacking?
Faithful returned missionary here. Enjoyed the fresh perspective, though I disagree with his conclusions. The guy seemed sincere in wanting to find the truth. I'd be interested in seeing another analysis of those books he mentioned, but with their commonalities with the Bible filtered out. After all, the language of The Late War and The First Book of Napoleon is explicitly based on the King James Bible, and so is that of the Book of Mormon. That's nothing new.
Still, I'd be happy to discuss it.
Even though there is no evidence for magic or the supernatural, it takes an incredible amount of evidence to convince people of that fact. When faced with mountains of evidence that the supernatural doesn't exist in reality, people still want to cling to tall tales and myths.
And how often does the phrase "and it came to pass" appear? I've read the Book. On bloody near every page.
The “Everything is a Remix” clip was awesome!
2:48. The Book is NOT really 531 pages long. At least Joseph did not come up with 531 pages of material. Mormons seem to be saying that as the book is 531 pages long that is impressive. But lets look at it.
About 10% of the BOM comes from the KJV Bible, including pages and pages of filler from Isaiah early in the Book.
Between 10 and 20% of each page is taken up with a topical guide at the bottom which consists of reams and reams of references to other scriptures;
Yet more space is taken up with chapter headings to let the confused reader know just what is going on in the story, lets say about 5%;
And finally there are other odds and ends, such as the pronunciation guide, pictures, waffle about the content of the Book, the witnesses and how Joseph got the book.
Strip it all away, and you have about 300, highly unimpressive pages of stuff that Smith actually came up with, and this could be reduced to about 150 if the book had not been written in such a long winded style.
Once and for all mormons: please stop saying that the Book is 531 pages long as though this is something impressive. It isn't. A closer look shows that almost half of it is NOT original material.
Lie much? As it never has been shown that Joseph Smith plagiarized. Why are you damned nuisances even here? If anything this above video clearly shows that Joseph Smith did not plagiarize. Chris Johnson on the above video makes it very clear that he doesn't want people going around saying that his research actually proves anything. Here's the question that I have for you nuisances, HOW could JUST Joseph Smith have decided to go out and plagiarize?
lol. Uhh the topical guide, index, pronunciation guide, EVERYTHING... is in addition to the 531 ages. Have you ever picked up a Book of Mormon. Sorry but you sound like a fool. Its shocking to me the lengths people go to, even lying, sacrificing their sacred honor, to discredit a religion that makes no difference in their life. If you don like it, walk way. But there is an energy, a fuel, that keeps good people stirring up trouble. I'll let you introspect on who that tempter is.
Don't forget the 25% taken up by "And it came to pass..."
Can we just compromise and agree it's 265,000 words? That's around 2 1/2 mid-size novels, or a little longer that the New Testament. Still impressive.
Google ''Book of Abraham pt 1 (Why Egyptologists are wrong) you tube''. A video DEBUNKING THE EGYPTOLOGISTS by resenting proper interpretation. Proper interpretation is Joseph Smith translated in reverse back to a biblical text, the original.
Chris thank you so much for the work you've done on this. Stunning presentation and helps me understand more about the origins of what I used to believe.
reduce the 4kHz-12kHz (or just whatever the high end is) on an eq app if you want to watch this with less mouth sounds
Holy shit, the mouth smacking sounds are REAL in this presentation!
+Porcupethtonia haha the thirst is real
Hahahahahaha....I am less than 1/2 way thru and do not know if I can keep listening.
+Porcupethtonia
It's so damn annoying. This speak needs a basic class in public speaking.
I agree, his pacing is slower than a sloth on ambien, he barely looks up at the audience when he speaks, and he seems to be completely unaware of his mouth and the ungodly sounds emanating there from. Plus he takes an entire presentation just to relay the similarities between the BoM and The Napoleon, View of the Hebrews, and the Late War. Well, no shit. 90 percent of post mormons and ex mormons are already aware of this, Haha
Well, if you can't criticize the message the least you can do is bitch about the messenger
Chris, your website no longer works :(
Chris, this video has changed my life. I am now in the process of de-converting my wife but she won't listen to me unless I first talk to my bishop (who happens to be my father). I am putting together a powerpoint so I can have a concise presentation to show during this meeting. The powerpoint that you have shown in this video has some very compelling things in it and I would like it very much I could have a copy of it. Specifically the ending part with the Heavens Gate montage.
Is there an independent link for the video shown in the presentation about cultural evolution and memes?
The LDS apostle in that intro movie really made a case for fraud and lies and mind control.
Loved the Heavens Gate ending. Powerful presentation. Thank you for sharing
That book of Napoleon sounds pretty awesome, I'd love to read it, can you give a link to a pdf copy?
See the video's own reference links to both that as well as the link for reading The First Book of Napoleon.
enemay Click on my channel and watch the video ''The Dead sea Scrolls disprove Mormonism???-Really??'' then get back with me!
Does anyone know or have a way of contacting this person Chris Johnson? I am interested in using his analysis data to write a paper and I would like to ask him or his brother for more information on this project. I commented on another video but I'm reaching out as much as possible.
It doesn't appear that he is still using his social media channel askreality.
Scott Nilson I wondered the same thing
Thank you for all this research. That was just beautiful.
I enjoyed the contents. There were a lot of good points too. The lip smacking, derisive giggling and gum chewing got to be too much for me.
Ok I'm not the only one! That lip smacking was driving me insane!
Someone needed to give him some water.
Chris Johnson, your research work alienated me from the Mormon Church, but I also discovered so much more time to THINK for myself. If there was only one God why are there so many religions..??
Evidence for Rigdon being the mastermind:
1. Rigdon made specific prophecies on the Restoration and BOM a few years prior to 1830
2. Campellite doctrine and doctrine unique to Rigdon is abundant in the BOM, along with Rigdon's language (such as children of men)
3. Eyewitnesses seeing Rigdon and Smith together prior to 1830
4. Rigdon was instantly elevated to a level about equal to JS after baptism in the church.
5. Rigdon constantly threatened to reveal the secret of Mormonism
Well done Chris. You got through a lot of well researched material and no doubt with a time limit. I coach speakers and I understand the difficulties of tackling a presentation like this. The more experience you get the better it will be. You can bet that those who criticize your presentation skills here could not do as well themselves. You have a refreshing and sincere personality - please keep researching and keep speaking. God bless.
Chris Johnson states that his work doesn't actually prove anything. As you can CLEARLY SEE that if anything the above video helps one to see that Joseph Smith did not steal from other books to come up with the Book of Mormon.
I can't stand to watch the video. When he keeps making that keeps making that noise with his mouth.
Man what an amazing talk. I am an analyst and this really hit all the right spots for me. I have always had a lot of difficulty with the name claims on both sides because there was never a statistical baseline for phrase occurrence in every day life. I am wondering if your data set is open? Great work. Thanks for all the effort!
would you can give the pages of Charles anthon where are the names of zerahemla in PDF
Thank you, for all of your work to present the TRUTH! Science Rocks!
Its funny listening to all the Mormons on here testifying about how they "know" in their heart that the Book of Mormon is true... almost word for word quoting the cultists at the end of this video! Did you guys miss that whole thing? When you say you "know in your heart" that something is true, you become every bit as credible as Marshall Applewhite!
Completely agree. Proverbs: The heart is deceitful above all things; who can know it?
Because so many influences have been proposed, we conducted a large study on over 100,000 books to see if we could narrow it down to the top influences. After this talk, we continued to build a larger team of researchers with more computing resources and have improved the algorithms to test for influence rather than similarity. You can see the ongoing research at at the askreality link in the description.
What was Charles Anthom's book that he was referencing?
Fascinating. I loved the parts about the names and events that Smith borrowed from other books or events of the time. The mathematical bits were quite over my head.
There is something funny I want to point out about the argument about the stylistic voice of the book. Mormons argue "after computer analysis, the BoM could not have been written by ONE man, so it wasn't made up by Smith." Even if that were true, the Book of Mormon itself claims to be written by ONE man; Mormon (You know. The, uh, guy in the title?). He was the guy who wrote the abridgment of all the records. So how the hell does that claim support the Book of Mormon anyway?
Of course, this all fits perfectly with mormon logic; everything is true because we say it is.
The Book of Mormon was not written by one man. Good try though. First Nephi through Words of Mormon were written by multiple different people. Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Jarom, Omni, etc... After that point, Mormon Abridged the Writings from Mosiah until His own writings, in Mormon. Then Moroni Abridged parts of Ether, and recorded some of his own ideas in Moroni.
Actually no. The book was all written by Smith. None of those characters existed.
Great talk. Thanks so much for sharing.
?
@@richardholmes7199 Did you listen?
Does anyone know if Big Data tools have been used on the New Testament?
Wow, thank you for the work and analysis. As you presented, there are many ways to know what’s true about the BoM, but to be able to show these contemporary influences linguistically are tremendously helpful in understanding where it actually came from.
Lasted to 6:19 before his mouth sounds became too much for me. Drink a glass of water.
Lol mouth sounds I wouod hate to b he’s wife waking up to him in the morning that breath would stink like shit
Many of the commentors here are embarrassingly ignorant. Trust me haters, the absolute lack of logic you are using to defend your whacked out religious beliefs makes you poster children for why we need mandatory education in logic and reasoning.
hahah agree
It took 240,000 years of CPU time to do what Joseph Smith did without a computer in the 1820s. Gift and power of God indeed.
It was searching through books, not writing its own, go ask chat gpt and it’ll pop something up as fast as it can
@@crackshot_cashew9385 Already been done a dozen times. ChatGPT comes no where close.
Is there a chance that in doing the computer search on all these books, including the BoM, that the personal bias of the researchers could have influenced the outcome?
The material is interesting but unfortunately the presentation is poorly structured, ramblingly presented, and tedious and painful to listen to.
+Franz Fleischer Its true, could have been presented a lot better, and in maybe half the time. Still I found it fascinating. But wanted him to get to the point(s) a little quicker.
+Franz Fleischer it might help if he didn't preface every point with "now here's why this is wrong."
Franz Fleischer agree, his champing sounds distract a lot
Hyrum Smith would have likely had access to those books whilst he attended Dartmouth College
I don’t know how anyone could watch this and still believe in the Book of Mormon.
Some people just cant say they were wrong. Its called ego. Theyve spent their lives believing in that book of fiction.
Quite easily, actually. Once you realize that the majority of parallels come from the Bible, it's not very troubling. We've been open about the Book of Mormon's similarities with the Bible since the beginning, and in fact they support the Book of Mormon. What I don't understand is how anyone can read the Book of Mormon and not believe it.
Can I get a Source. the link in the Comments is broken. I would like to quote this.
Excellent! I was glued to the screen the entire time. Thank you for the massive amount of research and honest work this required.
I came here to debunk mormonism but he ruined Star Wars instead! There is no good in the world!!!!
Rigdon's material (before 1830 and/or Lectures on Faith and/or the writings much latter with Stephen Post) wasn't plotted on the graph to check whether he wrote much of the BoM or not?
Hi Chris Johnson, if you get this msg, have you read Richard Carrier's works? I've met him and I think you'd love to brainstorm with him on writing a book with all this!
actually now that a whole timeline of Star Trek is constructed you could have a Book of Kirk and build a Temple of Spoc
I didn't notice the lip smacking because the information is sooooooooo fascinating. Thank you for this research!!!
The biggest lesson I learned from Joseph Smith:
“Don’t ask God what the one true religion is… you don’t want that smoke.”
Nice presentation. I would like to know if it would be possible to do this kind of search on any computer. If so, I'm interested.
I took a look at the stat article on The Urantia Book. I believe you have referenced Chris Smith's article on scribd.
Chris Smith cautioned against making a single author conclusion.
Was there another article besides the one quoted above?
Awesome video. When I first started reading parts of the book of Mormon I recognized pretty quick many of the phrases and style were taken directly from the King James Bible. But I've always wondered where Joseph Smith got his such precise historical facts and ideas from considering the year he was in when there wasn't as much print as today. Turns out he really was an avid reader and coupled with his well known storytelling he came up with the book of Mormon from a handful of books he had. Gotta say he was a pretty sly and intelligent guy but maybe he really did think he was putting something together valid and new altogether. His imagination got the best of him to the point where he did believe he was truly guided. Today of course the bogus book of Abraham is his most damning when he just got carried away with all the Egyptian stuff which is a well known copy from the ancient Egyptian book of the dead. Overall, smart guy though I will say that putting all those pieces together so craftily.
The Wonders of Nature is a book by Josiah Priest that was published in 1826
Proposed plagiarism by Joseph Smith, Jr.
Some critics of Mormonism consider The Wonders of Nature to be a relevant work for its historical connection to Mormonism. David Persuitte concluded that there were a number of parallels between the Book of Mormon and The Wonders of Nature. The Wonders of Nature was published five years before the Book of Mormon was published and Josiah Priest knew Oliver Cowdery, who later assisted Joseph Smith, Jr. with the production of the Book of Mormon. The chapter of Priest's book that is of interest in regards to this subject is "Northern and Western Indians, Proofs that the Indians of North America were lineally descended from the ancient Hebrews." Page 377 indicates that the origins of the North American Indians were speculated to be of Hebrew descent for at least 50 years before the writing of this book. Other theories about the Ten Lost Tribes in the Americas date back to the 17th century.[citatio
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wonders_of_Nature
Ethan Smith (1762-1849)
A View of the Hebrews...
(1st ed., Poultney, NY, 1823)
Arguments to show that the American natives are the tribes of Israel
85 1. They all appear to have had one origin
88 2. Their language appears a corruption of Hebrew
93 3. They have their holy ark
94 4. They have practised circumcision
95 5. They have one, and only one, God
104 6. Their variety of traditions evince they are the descendants of Israel
olivercowdery.com/texts/ethn1823.htm
James Adair (ca. 1709-ca. 1775)
www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/article/h-1098
Adair's discourse on the origin of the American Indians is the most complete and systematic attempt by an American to discuss the question up to that time-a question of prime importance among intellectuals of Adair's day. His central thesis, which dominates the text and has subsequently caused many to dismiss the contents, includes 23 arguments purporting to demonstrate that the American Indians are of Hebrew descent (the Lost Tribes of Israel) - See more at: www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/article/h-1098#sthash.1MPhRZVO.dpuf
I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about how the Book was translated, but whether what we have is a faithful and accurate translation. There is so much in the Book of Mormon that not only Joseph Smith couldn't have known it, no one could have known it. And I have yet to find a critic who could explain it. What of chiasmus? What of Nahom (NHM), what of the Arabian geography? Bountiful? The Mayan-Toltecs (600 BCE) and Olmecs (2400 BCE). AND that's only a tip of the proverbial iceberg. You can't have it both ways. If the Book is a fraud, it is an incredible work. The geography is bisteringly consistent. Distances, directions, uplands, narrow necks, body armor, calendars, wars, tactics. This is what genuine scholars are correlating in the Book of Mormon, while these guys are counting thees and thous and tabulating them in hopes of finding a nineteenth century author. The bottom line question is, is the book genuine and is the translation adequate to convey the spiritual truths found therein? Bottom line: There can be no nineteenth century author who would know these things.
John Roberts
Here's something that should clarify :
The Book of Mormon
The scriptural controversy followed by the published and peer reviewed scientific references refuting it.
Introduction to the Book of Mormon
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said:
"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts , than any other book."
Having read the Book of Mormon the discrepancies I discovered between the Book of Mormon account and actual archaeological and scientific findings.
Nephi and his people came from a culture that understood and utilized advanced metallurgy.
Labans steel sword and body armor, Nephis steel bow and tools he molted and crafted himself to build a ship. 1 Nephi 4:9, 1 Nephi 16:18, 1 Nephi 17:9,10, 11 and 16, 2 Nephi 5:14, 2 Nephi 5:15, Ether 7:9.
No such iron metallurgy existed in the new world until the Europeans.
The Native Americans used copper, bronze, silver and gold, and other natural elements, to craft decorative and ceremonial jewelry, axes, spear and arrow points and other items but made no attempt at creating steel or molting iron. Archaeologists have never discovered any iron or steel tools, weapons or implements in the Americas before the Europeans. An exception would be a very few examples of meteoric iron. A natural element not created by metallurgy.
How is it that the supposed descendants of a people with this technological knowledge and ability would lose this knowledge?
How is it that no iron or steel weapons, tools , implements, or iron ore smelting centers have ever been discovered in a land that was supposedly covered with these descendants and where 10's of thousands or millions of them perished in battle?
Has this ever happened before any place else on earth?
Roman army weapons, swords, armor, coins and artifacts from the same time period and similar climates are discovered from Northern Europe to the Middle East and Northern Africa.
The bow was used in the Americas around 1000BCE. The NA's didn't have the bow before this time. (Jaredites 2200BCE). The current estimate has it reaching the northern Southwest in the period AD 200-300 but not reaching the present US-Mexican border until about AD 500.
The Book of Mormon states that Nephi and his family traveled South to the Red Sea and continued down the Arabian Peninsula for the space of eight years to present day Yemen. They are then commanded to build a timber construction ship. 1 Nephi 17:1, 1 Nephi 17:8.
To my knowledge there has never been timber suitable to build a ship growing in the region. Perhaps someone would research this.
Lehi, Nephi and their people sailed across the Indian and Pacific oceans, around the world, without making landfall to Central America.
Really?
That would be tough to do with a modern sailing vessel.
They loaded all manner of seeds and fruits from the area to take with them. 1 Nephi 17:6.
And they began to till the earth and plant the seeds they had brought which produced crops in abundance. 1 Nephi 18:24, 2 Nephi 5:11, Ether 9: 17.
No evidence of any grain, fruit or vegetable from the middle east has ever been found growing in America or preserved in any tomb or temple.
According to The Book of Mormon the Americas were set apart for a land for Lehi's descendants. Throughout the Book of Mormon no contact with any people living in America previous to Lehi's people are recorded. 2 Nephi 1:5 thru 9, Alma 63:, Mosiah 8:.
THE BOOK OF MORMON
an account written by
THE HAND OF MORMON
upon plates
taken from the plates of Nephi
Wherefore, it is an abridgement of the record of the people of Nephi, and
also of the Lamanites- Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the
house of Isreal; ect.
The archaeological record and DNA studies say otherwise.
There are numerous references in the Book of Mormon to horses and chariots being used in the Americas. Alma 18:9,10,12 Alma 20:26 , 3 Nephi 3:22, Ether 9 : 19
There were no horses in the Americas before the Europeans (Spanish) introduced them in 1519AD.
There has never been a wheel mounted on an axle or any wheeled conveyance or vehicle found in the Americas before the Europeans. Such technology would not have been abandoned or forgotten by the natives. There has never been a road found in the Americas built for a wheeled conveyance by the natives. Only Log rollers in the Inca area. Their roads were steep with steps in the grades, their bridges were narrow rope suspension bridges 3 feet wide. Designed for runners and pack Llamas.
A few wheeled toys have been found so they understood the concept but without draft animals what would be the point?
The BoM mentions many animals , cattle, oxen, sheep, goats, swine, elephants, and honey bees. Ether 9: 18,19, Ether 2: 3.
No such animals existed in the Americas before the Colombian exchange.
The BoM states the Jaredites had silk. Ether 9:17
The silk worm was introduced by the Spanish.
Gold and Silver coins or bars in monetary denominations. Alma 11: 1-19
No Gold or Silver coins or bars have ever been found in the Americas in any archaeological excavation.
The Nephites became expert in working cement and built and dwelt in houses made of cement. Helaman 3:7
The Nephites became so numerous the filled the land from sea to sea north to south and from east to west. Helaman 3:8
Where are the archaeological remains of these thousands of dwellings?
Joseph Smith's account states that the four sets of plates, three gold and one brass, that he translated the Book of Mormon from was written in Hebrew and Egyptian.
No such written or spoken language or any remnant there of has ever been found in America.
The Mayan hieroglyphics of Central America are unique and bear no resemblance to any middle eastern language or hieroglyph. They date from 1500BC to 600AD. The peak of their civilization being around 200AD. 35,000 Mayan hieroglyphics or so are in known existence and have been decoded and can now be read. The written language is now being taught to Guatemalans of Mayan decent.
There is no mention of anything contained in the Book of Mormon, (600BC to 421AD), in the Mayan record. You would think something as big as the coming of Christ to America, civil and social rivalries, enormous wars and mass battles would have made the news! 1 Nephi 19:4
Bear in mind Mormon hides the plates in the hill Cumorah between 400 and 421 AD.
Two million warriors are slain at the hill Cumorah. Ether 15:2
No archaeological evidence has ever been found to support this, not one item. And yet
Roman artifacts from the same time period and in similar climates are numerous.
Then there is the incontrovertible DNA research findings and science publications on the anthropology of the Americas.
The Truth does not fear investigation.
I ask only that you do your own study and research and draw your own conclusions.
"If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.
George A. Smith, early LDS leader, [Journal of Discourses, vol. 14 p. 216 (1871)
Orson Pratt, 1811-1881
DIVINE AUTHENTICITY OF THE BOOK OF MORMON
By Orson Pratt
One of the Twelve Apostles of
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
This book must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man, affecting both the temporal and eternal interests of every people under heaven to the same extent and in the same degree that the message of Noah affected the inhabitants of the old world. If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the word of God, and will suppose themselves securely built upon the rock of truth until they are plunged with their families into hopeless despair. The nature of the message in the Book of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; if false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it. Therefore, every soul in all the world is equally interested in ascertaining its truth or falsity.
The book of Mormon is a fraud.
Jbeliski; THAT, should not be surprising, since God IS the author of both! 'IF' The Book of Mormon did NOT have a familiar spirit and language, ... well then, a charge of fraud would be justified, now, .. would it not?
It is God Himself, who speaks the same phrasing and language to all peoples of this world, .. because he tells us, 'that he changes not'. He is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. Why would not His language and message not be the same??
Joseph Smith was a farm boy of poor circumstances, and did NOT have a chance to be an avid reader as charged, and 'that' fact gives total merit to the language of the Book of Mormon, and it's intricacies.
It's from God, .. so get over it, or be charged with denying God's work and thus God Himself. And 'how' do you think that will work out for you??
SciPro
No no no the king James Bible writers had chosen that particular style and were consistent throughout. It wasn't originally written that way word for word in Hebrew and Greek. It was a literal masterpiece. Smith just copied portions of it as well as the style.
Holland should get a star on his forehead for that drama queen performance.
😄😄 you should listen when in some devotional he said,: "I am so furious when people leave this church!"... hahaha, like sooo severe!
@25:23 wouldn't mind seeing the book that was "just prior to 1830" that he was unable to get. I can't seem to find it.
Another way of explaining this principle is by the following example: Suppose we believe James Strang was a true prophet and our group of 1000 members look for parallels for fifty years to back up our beliefs. What do you think we will find? Well, if it's a hoax, then we would expect to find hundreds of parallels by chance... the more time we spend looking, the more we will find! But if it is a hoax, the parallels will be weak, common, non-exclusive, and insignificant.
Thomas Smart Ferguson was one of the most noted defenders of Book of Mormon archaeology. Mr. Ferguson planned the New World Archaeological Foundation which he hoped would prove the Book of Mormon through archaeological research. The Mormon Church granted hundreds of thousands of dollars to this organization, but in the end, Thomas Stuart Ferguson admitted that although the Foundation made some important contributions to New World archaeology, all his work with regard to the Book of Mormon was in vain. He admitted, in fact, that he had wasted twenty-five years of his life trying to prove the Book of Mormon.
Concerning books written by Mormons to support the Book of Mormon through archeology, Dr. Ray T. Matheny, professor of Anthropology at the church's Brigham Young University stated, "While some people choose to make claims for the Book of Mormon through archaeological evidences, to me they are made prematurely, and without sufficient knowledge... I do not support the books written on this subject including The Messiah in Ancient American, or any other. I believe that the authors are
making cases out of too little evidence and do not adequately address the problems that archaeology and the Book of Mormon present. I would feel terribly embarrassed if anyone sent a copy of any book written on the subject to the National Museum of Natural History - Smithsonian Institution, or other authority, making claims that cannot as yet be substantiated .... Speculation, such as practiced so far by Mormon authors has not given church members credibility." (Letter by Ray T. Matheny, dated Dec. 17, 1987).
Ferguson BASED everything on false pretences.
I always regarded pointing out parallels a dubious practice but Chris really pulled it together here with his cold, hard, objective algorithmic analysis. Especially holding hypotheses to a falsifiable standard and dispelling the ones that didn't make the cut. Grade A work.
Chris raised the issue of Joseph Smith not sending Sidney Rigdon to Charles Anthon but to someone else who then referred Rigdon to a second person who then referred Rigdon to Charles Anthon. Chris stated that Anthon had written a book about ancient names. The book in question lists ancient names known from ancient texts, and the list is enormous occupying over 700 pages. Chris found Book of Mormon names there and other names similar to Book of Mormon names.
I'm very impressed with the work put in this presentation. I wish it existed for me to see back before I went on my mission. I think it would have done me a lot of good, because how I was worshipping in the church was mentally unhealthy and did way more damage then it did good.
Amazing. Chris is a genius. Its so obvious, simple & true. And the truth shall set me free.
2:01
Gee, thats interesting......what about the bible? Is not that more attacked than the Book of Mormon? I would think so since mainstream Christianity is well....mainstream.
Whether Teancum is near the Great Lakes or not, is irrelevent to my debunking of a widely cited Solomon Spalding theory where Teancum is near the Great Lakes. I'm debunking an "exmo" theory here, so I'm not sure what you're point is, could you explain?
What was the name of the book used at 25:34? Anyone know?
I believe it was the apocrypha.
Can we apply the same method to the Bible?
+Rob McKay What they're talking about on the above video I know is actually somewhat of a common occurrence! It's always went on! It's always went on for who knows how long now!
+Rob McKay yes, and with the same result. that is the beauty of this particular computer model. it has no parameters. no base-lines for comparisons. so no matter how little the two books are in reality, the computer will always have a "closest possible match" to show that "this book was copied from this other book."
Yes and it has. Which is an interesting comparison. The books of the Bible are all written by different authors and sometimes multiple authors. The lingustics are also used to determine when a certain book was written. This is how we know the books of the Bible are written over a millenia. This is a blunt contrast to the books of BoM who bears the mark of the same author and has a language heavily influenced by KJV. So where as the bible is truly ancient we can establish tha BoM is not.
Mattias Ristholm
What a silly answer and accusation. The linguistics of the Book or Mormon prove MULTIPLE AUTHORS and NONE of them is called Joseph Smith.
I'm the billion dollar giveaway man.
for you, tomorrow, one billion dollars cash and all you have to do is quote, from your Bible, the words "TRINITY and TRIUNE" with their chapters and verses, naming the Bible version you found the words in. WE WILL VERIFY THE RESPONSE.
+BobMcDanielRobertson Didn't you whatch the video! It showed as expected that BoM has one author.
If you can get past the awkward presentation, this is an impressive analysis.
Big ups.
+Nico Epstein
Question, Nico. What if he had done a complete job and used later books in his comparison. For example, if he found books published in 1845 that fit his criteria, would you still be impressed (the BOM was published in 1830)? Real scientists use validation studies to make sure that his methods give us the real, valid results, and he failed to do that.
I wonder why he skipped that vital step. He made no mention that his research was peer reviewed.
I'll watch it again with your question in mind.
Nico Epstein
He specifically said that the books that he used for the test ended with a date of 1830. A peer review board would not allowed him to do that.
If I understand what you're implying, it's that the data set should look at books from after the publishing of the BOM in order to see whether the statistics are significant from a probability standpoint? If that's what you mean, then I would say that if there were books from afterwards that contained similar material, one couldn't rule out the possibility that THOSE books were influenced by the BOM, which skews the data in the same way that the BOM, if divinely dictated, shouldn't be influenced by any book before it.
Nico Epstein
Yep, no validity test will be perfect, but at least some minimal effort should be made. If some books are discovered to have these similarities, for example, you may want to research the history of these books -- the author, the publisher, etc.
I hope you will take this further -- a TED talk, or a PBS program. Very well done.
I noticed Marshall Applewhite does that same momentary crying thing that Henry B. Eyring does. Chilling.
Fantastic work. I hope those who still believe can look at this data honestly and re think what they were taught as children. Your teachers were fooled because they didn't have the access to the truth. You have access to facts. You have access to truth. You don't need faith when you have evidence.
+Kyle Sfhandyman The above video is speculation if you will, the Book of Mormon cannot be proven to be a fraud.
Richard Holmes It is easily proven a fraud. Just go read the CES Letter. It tells about the Book of Abraham being a completely incorrect translation of the papari. It talks about the passages that were copied out of a KJV Bible complete with printers errors. How did people who came to the the New World in 600 BC know about Jesus who wasn't born when they left? Why did they call him Jesus "Christ" when Christ was a later Greek translation of the Hebrew word Anointed or Messiah?
There are hundreds of other problems. This is why the Brethren have made edits to the "perfect" Book of Mormon almost 4,000 times.
It is really easy to know the truth about the Book of Mormon. You just have to look at the evidence. Cesletter.com
+Richard Holmes Various errors UNIQUE to the copy of the bible Joseph Smith owned (1769 KJV) are found in the Book of Mormon, implying that Joseph Smith used the KJV as a reference.
Refer:
2 Nephi 19:1, 2 Nephi 21:3, 2 Nephi 16:2, 2 Nephi 23:21-22.
~~~
We are told that the Book of Mormon was written and buried in the 400s AD. Joseph Smith reportedly discovered the plates in 1827, some 1,400 years later.
The 1769 edition of the King James Bible, which Joseph Smith owned, contained some specific ERRORS that are UNIQUE to that edition. In other words, those particular errors occur ONLY in the 1769 Bible, nowhere else, so they are easy to identify. Refer to the Book of Mormon: 2 Nephi 19:1, 2 Nephi 21:3, 2 Nephi 16:2, 2 Nephi 23:21-22.
How, then, is it that various of those unique errors from the King James 1769 Bible appear in the Book of Mormon, which was written and buried some 1,300 years earlier? How is that possible? How could the writer of the Book of Mormon know what would be written in the 1769 King James Bible some 1,300 years later? The fact that those unique errors are in the Book of Mormon gives great weight to the suggestion that Joseph Smith himself wrote the Book of Mormon and copied material from his 1769 King James Bible. What other possible explanation is there? Fraud!
Something I researched and wrote on,
The Book of Mormon
The scriptural controversy followed by the scientific references refuting it.
Introduction to the Book of Mormon
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said:
"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts , than any other book."
Having read the Book of Mormon the discrepancies I discovered between the Book of Mormon account and actual archaeological and scientific findings.
Nephi and his people came from a culture that understood and utilized advanced metallurgy.
Labans steel sword and body armor, Nephis steel bow and tools he molted and crafted himself to build a ship. 1 Nephi 4:9, 1 Nephi 16:18, 1 Nephi 17:9,10, 11 and 16, 2 Nephi 5:14, 2 Nephi 5:15, Ether 7:9.
No such iron metallurgy existed in the new world until the Europeans.
The Native Americans used copper, bronze, silver and gold, and other natural elements, to craft decorative and ceremonial jewelry, axes, spear and arrow points and other items but made no attempt at creating steel or molting iron. Archaeologists have never discovered any iron or steel tools, weapons or implements in the Americas before the Europeans. An exception would be a very few examples of meteoric iron. A natural element not created by metallurgy.
How is it that the supposed descendants of a people with this technological knowledge and ability would lose this knowledge?
How is it that no iron or steel weapons, tools , implements, or iron ore smelting centers have ever been discovered in a land that was supposedly covered with these descendants and where 10's of thousands or millions of them perished in battle?
Has this ever happened before any place else on earth?
Roman army weapons, swords, armor, coins and artifacts from the same time period and similar climates are discovered from Northern Europe to the Middle East and Northern Africa.
The bow was used in the Americas around 1000BCE. The NA's didn't have the bow before this time. (Jaredites 2200BCE). The current estimate has it reaching the northern Southwest in the period AD 200-300 but not reaching the present US-Mexican border until about AD 500.
The Book of Mormon states that Nephi and his family traveled South to the Red Sea and continued down the Arabian Peninsula for the space of eight years to present day Yemen. They are then commanded to build a timber construction ship. 1 Nephi 17:1, 1 Nephi 17:8.
To my knowledge there has never been timber suitable to build a ship growing in the region. Perhaps someone would research this.
Lehi, Nephi and their people sailed across the Indian and Pacific oceans, around the world, without making landfall to Central America. Really?
That would be tough to do with a modern sailing vessel.
They loaded all manner of seeds and fruits from the area to take with them. 1 Nephi 17:6. And they began to till the earth and plant the seeds they had brought which produced crops in abundance. 1 Nephi 18:24, 2 Nephi 5:11, Ether 9: 17.
No evidence of any grain, fruit or vegetable from the middle east has ever been found growing in America or preserved in any tomb or temple.
According to The Book of Mormon the Americas were set apart for a land for Lehi's descendants. Throughout the Book of Mormon no contact with any people living in America previous to Lehi's people are recorded. 2 Nephi 1:5 thru 9, Alma 63:, Mosiah 8:.
THE BOOK OF MORMON
an account written by
THE HAND OF MORMON
upon plates
taken from the plates of Nephi
Wherefore, it is an abridgement of the record of the people of Nephi, and
also of the Lamanites- Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the
house of Isreal; ect.
The archaeological record and DNA studies say otherwise.
There are numerous references in the Book of Mormon to horses and chariots being used in the Americas. Alma 18:9,10,12 Alma 20:26 , 3 Nephi 3:22, Ether 9 : 19
There were no horses in the Americas before the Europeans (Spanish) introduced them in 1519AD.
There has never been a wheel mounted on an axle or any wheeled conveyance or vehicle found in the Americas before the Europeans. Such technology would not have been abandoned or forgotten by the natives. There has never been a road found in the Americas built for a wheeled conveyance by the natives. Only Log rollers in the Inca area. Their roads were steep with steps in the grades, their bridges were narrow rope suspension bridges 3 feet wide. Designed for runners and pack Llamas.
A few wheeled toys have been found so they understood the concept but without draft animals what would be the point?
The BoM mentions many animals , cattle, oxen, sheep, goats, swine, elephants, and honey bees. Ether 9: 18,19, Ether 2: 3.
No such animals existed in the Americas before the Colombian exchange.
The BoM states the Jaredites had silk. Ether 9:17
The silk worm was introduced by the Spanish.
Gold and Silver coins or bars in monetary denominations. Alma 11: 1-19
No Gold or Silver coins or bars have ever been found in the Americas in any archaeological excavation.
The Nephites became expert in working cement and built and dwelt in houses made of cement. Helaman 3:7
The Nephites became so numerous the filled the land from sea to sea north to south and from east to west. Helaman 3:8
Where are the archaeological remains of these thousands of dwellings?
Joseph Smith's account states that the four sets of plates, three gold and one brass, that he translated the Book of Mormon from was written in Hebrew and Egyptian.
No such written or spoken language or any remnant there of has ever been found in America.
The Mayan hieroglyphics of Central America are unique and bear no resemblance to any middle eastern language or hieroglyph. They date from 1500BC to 600AD. The peak of their civilization being around 200AD. 35,000 Mayan hieroglyphics or so are in known existence and have been decoded and can now be read. The written language is now being taught to Guatemalans of Mayan decent.
There is no mention of anything contained in the Book of Mormon, (600BC to 421AD), in the Mayan record. You would think something as big as the coming of Christ to America, civil and social rivalries, enormous wars and mass battles would have made the news! 1 Nephi 19:4
Bear in mind Mormon hides the plates in the hill Cumorah between 400 and 421 AD.
Two million warriors are slain at the hill Cumorah. Ether 15:2
No archaeological evidence has ever been found to support this, not one item. And yet Roman artifacts from the same time period and in similar climates are numerous.
Then there is the incontrovertible DNA research findings and science publications on the anthropology of the Americas.
The Truth does not fear investigation.
I ask only that you do your own study and research and draw your own conclusions.
"If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.
George A. Smith, early LDS leader, [Journal of Discourses, vol. 14 p. 216 (1871)
Orson Pratt, 1811-1881
DIVINE AUTHENTICITY OF THE BOOK OF MORMON
By Orson Pratt
One of the Twelve Apostles of
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
This book must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man, affecting both the temporal and eternal interests of every people under heaven to the same extent and in the same degree that the message of Noah affected the inhabitants of the old world. If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the word of God, and will suppose themselves securely built upon the rock of truth until they are plunged with their families into hopeless despair. The nature of the message in the Book of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; if false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it. Therefore, every soul in all the world is equally interested in ascertaining its truth or falsity.
+Richard Holmes THANK U!!!
A bunch of genuine Mormons seem to be pretty happy, why not let them have their fun? What's the point of existence anyway if not to be as happy as possible?
Actually, there are a lot of Mormons that are unhappy with their religion. One statistic I heard was that when a person gets baptized in the LDS church there is about a 50% chance that he will not stay in the church for even one year. They have a 50% one-year attrition rate.
dlwatib There are actually no statistics available to support this claim. And of course no one has ever cited any kind of reference on this. I suspect it's little more than wishful thinking. But even if it were fact, faithful latter-day saints wouldn't, or needn't, be concerned as it was prophesied from the early days of the church. There is even a well known prophetic dream that addresses it in the Book of Mormon.
dlwatib Even if that is entirely true that doesn't factor out those who are genuine or not. All religious "cultures" are dumb in my opinion. By nature people are stupid and they turn things into an exaggerated version of what something is not. For example, the mormon "culture" is to try to appear as righteous as possible, whether or not it is actually who you are.
That of course is stupid. But as far as I've ever known it seems to teach people to be better, to love those around you, and to be your best. So if you where to look from the outside in then who cares if it is actually true.
To those in the church who are unhappy I would say if you really don't want to be there then why are you? To those who want to be there I would say stay if that makes you happy. Like I said, just let them have there fun, they're not hurting anyone.
Michael Perry Exactly. If you're not happy, don't let it into your life. I once asked a speaker at an event why, if he didn't believe it, he didn't just walk away. He said it's kind of like being Jewish. You can still find cultural fulfillment in living the life...eating kosher and so forth, even if you don't believe the story of Moses and the passing of the Red Sea. When he was excommunicated from the church, this guy wept like a baby. I just couldn't see it. He could have stayed had he wished to, but he wanted to make a statement. You can't have it both ways.
Michael Perry After we die (everybody dies) and face eternity, let's see who was dumb and who was smart.
As Christ said, "The first shall be last, and the last shall be first"
so, what IS the "burning of the bosom" where does it come from and how does it happen? I never feel that anymore now that I'm not religious.... it's an odd feeling, almost uncomfortable to me, but I guess in a good way. I just wish I understood the "how" and "why" of it.
My concern is that when I did a comparison between the Solomon Spalding ms and The BOM, there was almost no connection, but when I did the same to The Book of Moses and The Book of Abraham it showed up as the same Author - so how did Solomon Spalding write The Book of Abraham if he was dead? Joseph was already known as a story teller, and his book has his signature all over it. I don't see a reason to believe a non-extant version of a non-related text must exist to explain the Book of Mormon.
NHM not only is the right name in the right place at the right time, in 1996 it was discovered to have been a burial site. _Bingo._ But perhaps the greatest Arabian evidence is Bountiful. The Frankincense Trail, even the valley with the river of water, which for years anti-Mormon friends stuffed under my nose. Not one inconsistency with Arabian geography has been noted. Also, the remix theory has so many holes in it...actually many of the same ones that evolution does. As Nibley said about the Book of Mormon, _"There's nothing like it in the world."_ Rather than incorporate the elements of romance one _should_ find, the Book of Mormon is amazingly consistent in keeping Christ at the center and avoiding the hero literature of the day. It would be advantageous to further studies to include apocryphal works not available in 1830 as a control and see how they fare. Had they been available, I suspect they would figure more prominently in the studies.
As for terms like _"a going"_ -- certainly you realize that was a common form of speech. My grandmother, from Melber, Kentucky, used to drive me nuts saying, _"we're a-going to town"_ or _"we're a-going for a ride,"_ I hated it. And Nibley said his _own_ grandmother said it. My other grandma never used the term, so how much influence are you going to give colloquial expressions?
If the Book of Mormon kills Mormonism, you will be lauded for your foresight. But, as I suspect, the Kingdom will continue its course until it overtakes the world. For all the 240,000 man hours dedicated to this absurd research, just come up with a Book of Mormon! With all the fancy computers and sources, it ought to be child's play! Keep in mind that Joseph was said to have dictated this out of a hat with many witnesses and scribes. So how did he keep the geography, teachings, quotations and prophecies straight? How did he keep the very complex chiasmic structures interwoven throughout Alma and other chapters in place? (The chiasmic structures were intentional -- there's no doubt about that, and even one slip up would have been obvious to today's investigators.)
One last thought. I've never attended _any_ intellectual lectures where the laughs of derision have been as pronounced, or strained. It was rude, completely uncalled for given the lack of irony or humor in what was being said; it also was itself ironic given one of the early visions experienced by both Lehi and Nephi.
357Muzzleblast Eh there Muzzleblast! Noticed you blasted Dave Miller on that other video! There is a you tube video called ''Omani Writings Found in America'' Kinda lends to the truth of how you wouldn't think of the middle east as being lush and green! How many people are even aware of Kohr Rory and Wadi Sayk Oman today! p.s. came across a site showing how space imagery shows ancient rivers over there in that region that are just now known about! Will try to find that site and post it.
The name Nephi is in the Apocrypha...was in Joseph Smith king james bible in his day.
Rypaul5217 No because you know something! As a Mormon myself I oughta know at least something about Mormonism! They are going to too much trouble to disprove something that's supposed to be a obvious fraud in order for them to have anything!
Rypaul5217 (CONT) I.E. nobody would or could spend this much effort, time, and money to this day and still protest something that is not true! If the church (The Mormon church in case no one knew!) wasn't true then why all the effort!
Richard Holmes Money, pride, and fear.
Wonderful job - thanks for the truth. Anti-truth LDS cult leaders are scared.
Maxwell Silverhammer Google anti-Mormon attack on Alma!
Richard Holmes I really do not care for anti-mormon sites; I prefer pro-truth. We can only love the mormons out of bondage.
Maxwell Silverhammer '' I really do not care for anti-mormon sites; '' Yes they are a very negative projecting people. Anti-Mormon attack on Alma is a site showing how that the anti-Mormons don't have answer on it.
'' We can only love the mormons out of bondage.'' Never thought of it like that. Am sure things are well on the home front.
Richard Holmes You should cherish Maxwell Silverhammer's affection for you MORmONS. I certainly do not share it. I do not want to love you out of MORmONISM, or MOCK you out of MORmONISM. I just want to MOCK you, to embarrass you to the point that you finally retreat to your own MORmON place where you MORmONS can lie to each other until you are sick to death of each other, then you can execute the MORmON temple penalties on yourselves and be done with it. MORmON !
pearclips I take it you're not Catholic eh!
I think the core of this talk should be worked up into an article that could be submitted to a peer-reviewed academic journal. Is there any reason this has not happened?
Great Job Chris Johnson. Did your great analytical skills lead to insights wrt the case for God from the sci angle ?
I was given a Book of Mormon around the time I was studying the KJV-only movement. When reading 2 Nephi 27:27 I noticed there was a problem. When studying the KJV I discovered that although it was a good translation there were some errors. For example, Isaiah 29:16 (the part about the potter's clay) was not translated correctly. I found that other 16th and 17th century Bible versions had difficulty translating the passage and the KJV proposed a very unique (but incorrect) translation. Modern Bible versions like the NASB, ESV, NKJV have the correct translation. But notice how 2 Nephi 27:27 (which is a plagiarism of Isa. 29:15-16) contains the incorrectly translated KJV sentence verbatim ("Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay"). That's right, a 17th century Bible translation error appearing word-for-word in the BOM! So there's no way ancient plates could be the source for 2 Nephi 27:27, the author clearly plagiarized from the KJV.
***** I know your take on this is wrong!
Richard Holmes If you can explain why an incorrectly translated passage from the KJV appears word-for-word in 2 Nephi 27:27 I would love to hear it. Would you claim that the gift and power of God intentionally gave Smith the incorrect KJV translation (instead of the correct translation)? Or does it make more sense that Smith opened the KJV and unknowingly copied the translation error. Put your feelings aside for a moment and look at the facts. If what Smith claimed was true the appearance of the KJV translation error in 2 Nephi 27:27 doesn't make sense.
***** Me thinks you'll be waiting a long time for a response
***** Then why didn't G-D get it right the first time?
***** But besides that there are differences between the two.
*How the Book of Mormon Destroyed Mormonism*
Let's see...the Book of Mormon has been in existence for about 186 years, and last Sunday I went to a church that had "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" on the side of the building.
Am I missing something here?
How can you fight "feelings" with facts if it's the feelings that trump. The Book of Mormon veracity has been destroyed by modern DNA, Archeology and common sense. Besides, there is no Book of Mormon gospel in Mormonism anyway.
Since most of Mormonism is not in the BOM, of course it can survive. I apologize for being verbose, but where in the BOM do we find:
1. That Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
2. God has a body of flesh and bones?
3. God is married in heaven?
4. Men can become Gods?
5. Temple participation is necessary to become exalted?
6. Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
7. The blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?
8. A person can lose his salvation if he is not baptized on behalf of dead relatives?
9. There is more than one God?
10. Males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?
11. You can't drink coffee or tea?
12. There are "three degrees of glory"?
13. That the Holy Ghost is a son of God just as Jesus is a son of God?
14. Where in the Book of Mormon does it say that God allowed the Nephites to practice polygamy?
15. Where in the Book of Mormon does it say that if a man wishes to be saved he must have a woman by his side?
16. Faithful members must wear sacred undergarments that have the power to protect them?
17. Official church doctrine must be voted on by the general membership?
18. That the Black race (seed of Cain) survived the flood because the devil needed a representation on earth?
19. God is the offspring of another God who, in turn, is the offspring of still another God, etc.?
20. That the highest level within the celestial kingdom is the "Church of the Firstborn"?it teach
August Zabriskie
"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:3-5)
That's how I know what I believe is true. That's how millions of LDS know.
As an aside, there are some items you bring up that are not LDS doctrine:
*1. That Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?*
Speculation. I know the concept appears in some LDS writings, but it's not contained in our "standard works" (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price). It is those works that we use as a ruler to "test" the truth of other statements that may come along.
*7. The blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?*
According to the Bible, there is one unforgivable sin, and that is the sin against the Holy Ghost:
"31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
"32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:31-32) LDS interpret that to be rejecting the atonement of Christ when one has a perfect knowledge of it. All other sins, even murder, are forgivable through-and only through-the blood of Christ.
*8. A person can lose his salvation if he is not baptized on behalf of dead relatives?*
Not doctrinal.
*9. There is more than one God?*
That is something whose truth or falsity we don't give any thought to. We only worship one God, and that is God the Father, whose son is Jesus Christ.
*13. That the Holy Ghost is a son of God just as Jesus is a son of God?*
Our Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) states: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us." (D&C 130:22) LDS believe that we are _all_ spirit children of our Heavenly Father. Anything past that in LDS writings borders on speculation.
*18. That the Black race (seed of Cain) survived the flood because the devil needed a representation on earth?*
Also speculation and not doctrinal.
*19. God is the offspring of another God who, in turn, is the offspring of still another God, etc.?*
Yeah, I've heard that before. Frankly, it's something most LDS don't give a thought to, since it's not relevant to our salvation. We worship only ONE God.
*20. That the highest level within the celestial kingdom is the "Church of the Firstborn"?*
Never heard that one before.And, I was not able to find any documentation on it.
Most of the above, though appearing in various church writings, are not official doctrine. The problem most non-LDS have when examining LDS teachings and beliefs is that they have no comprehension what constitutes official doctrine and what does not, and no understanding of how something becomes official doctrine. Therefore, they develop the mistaken belief that _everything_ written or spoken by an LDS general authority (e.g. church president, members of the first presidency, and quorum of the twelve apostles), is automatically doctrine. The Journal of Discourses is a good example of that error in thinking. The J of D has never been, is not now, and will never be, as a body of work, official LDS doctrine. Does it contain doctrine? Absolutely. But it also contains things that are not doctrine (a court case, for example). Despite that, many non-LDS continue to insist that the J of D is church doctrine, and accuse LDS of lying when we inform them that it is not.
I hope this has answered some of your questions.
Have a good one!
Terry Tippets
I would like to take your issues one at a time here and refute your premises. I was LDS for 33 years and Elders Quorum President when I resigned, so I know the “Church” and its doctrines. You are attempting to side step the issues with “it’s not doctrinal” and so on. I can show you that these “doctrines” were and are indeed taught by your Prophets and Apostles, that claim they wouldn’t and couldn’t lead you astray. If what you propose is true, these men then were dead wrong on these important issues and then indeed lead the members astray. Don’t say that is just their opinions as I know better. One of the last lessons I taught in Elders Quorum was titled “Man can become like God” which went on to espouse how we can becomes Gods of our own world. If this is taught in Priesthood classes it IS DOCTRINAL.
Also, I know the admonition in Moroni. I use to believe that feelings were the ultimate truth test. Until I found out that facts trump feelings. Muslims and many other faiths use the “burning of the bosom” as proof of the Koran, Watchtower, etc. A fool trust feelings in the light of facts.
POINT #1: That Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
REPLY: in was once a mortal man a that he t
The Teachings of Prophet Lorenzo Snow, pg. 1; “As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be.”
“He is our Father - the Father of our Spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 333.
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966 ed., p. 250.
“God is an exalted man. Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith... that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man...”- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, p. 10
. Joseph taught this obvious truth. As a matter of fact, he taught that through this process God himself attained perfection. From President Snow's understanding of the teachings of the Prophet on this doctrinal point, he coined the familiar couplet: "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." This teaching is peculiar to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ."
- Apostle Marion G. Romney, General Conference, October 1964
That grand truth, taught by the Prophet Joseph and ridiculed for the time, has now gripped the minds of the thinkers and philosophers of the age... It was crystallized into what we may call an aphorism, by President Lorenzo Snow: 'As man is God once was; as God is man may be'."
- Apostle James E. Talmage, General Conference, April 1915
POINT #7 The blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?
According to the Bible, there is one unforgivable sin, and that is the sin against the Holy Ghost:
LDS interpret that to be rejecting the atonement of Christ when one has a perfect knowledge of it. All other sins, even murder, are forgivable through-and only through-the blood of Christ.
REPLY: D&C 42:79; “And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.”
Why did LDS apostle Bruce McConkie write that a man may commit a sin so grievous that it will place him beyond the atoning blood of Christ (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 93) when the Bible says that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7)? It’s a major cop out to say “it’s not a standard work”. McConkie was an APOSTLE of Jesus Christ and MD is still an approved LDS reading. If he got it wrong the great APOSTLE lead you astray. Maybe he led you astray on other things?
ISSUE 8: A person can lose his salvation if he is not baptized on behalf of dead relatives?
REPLY: I was taught this as a Teacher or Priest but cannot find anything on it. I will leave it out of future posts.
ISSUE 9. There is more than one God?
That is something whose truth or falsity we don't give any thought to. We only worship one God, and that is God the Father, whose son is Jesus Christ.
“Give no thought to?
REPLY: D&C 121:32; “According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.”
Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another..."
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 275, 1852. Brighan Young speaking:
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns - have become Gods..."
Note: Polytheism is belief that there is more than one God. Makes no difference how many you worship or not.
ISSUE 13. That the Holy Ghost is a son of God just as Jesus is a son of God?
Our Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) states: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us." (D&C 130:22) LDS believe that we are all spirit children of our Heavenly Father. Anything past that in LDS writings borders on speculation
REPLY: Don’t get your inference that this is not true, when you plainly state yourself that “LDS believe that we are all spirit children of our Heavenly Father. Does that now make the Holy Ghost a son of God?
ISSUE 19. God is the offspring of another God who, in turn, is the offspring of still another God, etc.?
Yeah, I've heard that before. Frankly, it's something most LDS don't give a thought to, since it's not relevant to our salvation. We worship only ONE God.
REPLY: SEE ISSUE 9
ISSUE 20. That the highest level within the celestial kingdom is the "Church of the Firstborn"?
Never heard that one before. And, I was not able to find any documentation on it.
REPLY: Church of the Firstborn. The highest of three levels in the celestial kingdom. Only Mormons who keep all the commandments of God will enter this heaven and become Gods (or exalted) in eternity (The Way to Perfection, p. 206). According to tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith, "Eternal life is life in the presence of the Father and the Son. Those who receive it become members of the "Church of the Firstborn" and are heirs as sons and daughters of God. They receive the fulness of blessings. They become like the Father and the Son and are joint-heirs with Jesus Christ" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:9).
CONCLUSION: It is dishonest to say that if it’s not “official” it’s of no importance. Again I will go back to this premise: If LDS Prophets and Apostles teach ANYWHERE false doctrine and that doctrine is taught in Sunday School, Priesthood meetings, MIA etc. then that man is a false prophet and apostle and should not be listened to at all. What if the Apostle John wrote of the Apostle Paul: Paul teaches in the churches that Jesus came from another planet where “christs” are taught and sent to different worlds. If that were true, no one would ever listen to Paul again. His epistles would be burned and his name removed from the rolls. I guess it’s ok if McConkie, Young, Smith and so on taught heresies, as long as they weren’t “official”. Sorry, but only a TBM LDS would put their brain so far in denial to believe that nonsense. I leave you with this from Paul:
"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him...for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed."-Galatians 1:6-8
Jeremiah 14:14
Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Jeremiah 23:16
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
2 Cor. 11:3-4
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Cor. 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
August Zabriskie No slam on you, but you've lost it. You sound like all the other anti-Mormonism types I converse with on a daily basis. And you've probably turned into the very thing you undoubtedly shook your head at when you were LDS. I respect your right to not believe LDS teaching and doctrine any more, but you are wrong on the things you say. When anyone tells me that a witness from the Holy Ghost is nothing more than a mere feeling, I know they have not had that experience. I have. I know what it's like, and it's something I will remember for the rest of my life. Trying to equate it to a "feeling" is like trying to compare an ocean to a swimming pool--the two are that dissimilar, and more.
One statement you've made that I will address: " If this is taught in Priesthood classes it IS DOCTRINAL".
That is _just not so_! Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine, even if that statement is quoted in a lesson manual. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. Priesthood manuals, by their nature, can never be considered totally doctrinal. The same applies to the Journal of Discourses. As a body of work, the J of D is not doctrinal. Does it contain doctrine? Of course. But is also contains writings that are not official doctrine (a court case, for example).
As I said previously, I respect your right to not believe LDS teaching and doctrine anymore, but the _last thing_ I'm going to do is take the advice of a former member over that of the current general authorities in the church.
I sincerely wish you a pleasant life.
I appreciate your reply. I would like to address some of your comments. You first say that I have “lost it”.
If you are referring to my “testimony” you are quite correct. My critical thinking? Sorry, no. Like so many LDS’s you put everyone who disagrees with you in a box called “anti-Mormon” that immediately destroys all credibility in that person. That is a bit closed minded. I’ll wager that sometime in your past you held a dogma dear that was challenged and changed by someone or something you listened to or investigated. If you say no, then you must have the same beliefs in all things since you were a child. Who would know more: the person who blindly accepts all taught to them by “leaders” or someone who honestly questioned, investigated and analyzed even if the conclusion was extremely painful to them? You presume to know me but you know nothing of me. I won’t go into a lengthy dissertation but I’m a 6th generation Mormon, born in Provo, Ut. Temple, callings, tithe payer and seminary, etc. I had the “feeling” that I once believed was the Holy Ghost and worked hard at being the model Mormon. In regard to feeling as the ultimate truth test perhaps the words of Joseph Smith will help: When Joseph was asked why the revelation had failed, he explained that: "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil…When a man enquires of the Lord concerning a matter, if he is deceived by his own carnal desires, and is in error, he will receive an answer according to his erring heart, but it will not be a revelation from the Lord." (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 31)
If you think Whitmer is lying, I remind you he was one of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon. I guess we could pick and choose what we like though. He’s honest in his witness but a craven liar in everything else. If that comforts you, go for it.
In 1979, after 33 years in the church I began writing a book defending against all of the “anti” lies that were being told about my beloved Church and its Leaders. I spent almost two years digging into past church records and writings and anything else I could get my hands on to finally shut up all those evil “antis”. To make this brief, I discovered incontrovertible evidence that 99% of the antis were right on the mark. You think I enjoyed this? I agonized beyond anything I have ever done before. When I finally resigned as Elders Quorum President I was a wreck. Soon after my wife, the Bishops daughter, filed for divorce. All my “friends” and family abandoned me. Oh yeah, this was something I was really hoping for. Lose my beliefs, my wife and children, family and friends. Don’t presume to know me, ok.
Now, let’s address your comment that I am wrong on the things I say. You say just because it’s taught in Priesthood class, Sunday School, Publications, General Conference (I’m adding a few here since they apply) that it’s not DOCTRINAL. Wow. Talk about intellectual suicide. They can teach it as truth, but you can disregard it if you like. Doesn’t matter. Cool. What else in life do you apply that logic to? Now I ask you to put your reasoning ability to the test. Do you believe Brigham Young was a Prophet? Did he ever say “God told him a truth that the Church now disavows. If someone told you “you can believe every word I say” and then lies to you, do you still trust him? Please read these quotes from Prophet Brigham Young and then tell me he was wrong. If he was ,and you still believe he’s a Prophet of God , can’t say anymore to you. Your critical thinking along with the ability to think for yourself is squashed down, maybe never to rise again.
You only have three choices: One, he was lying. Two, he was delusional. Three, he was telling the truth. Please tell me which one you chose, or have you a fourth option?
And one more question: Do you believe what he taught here? Yes or No, no picking and choosing, ok?
Brigham Young said he had never given any counsel that was wrong.
"I am here to answer. I shall be on hand to answer when I am called upon, for all the counsel and for all the instruction that I have given to this people. If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 161).
Brigham Young compared his sermons with scripture.
"I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom...I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95).
Brigham Young boasted.
"What man or woman on earth, what spirit in the spirit-world can say truthfully that I ever gave a wrong word of counsel, or a word of advice that could not be sanctioned by the heavens? The success which has attended me in my presidency is owing to the blessings and mercy of the Almighty . . . " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 127).
Brigham Young emphasized that God Himself had revealed the doctrine to him:
How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God-. . . (Deseret News Weekly, June 18, 1873)
Note: Apostle Bruce R. McConkie called Adam-God Doctrine “false doctrine”.
Brigham Young said your own blood must atone for some sins.
"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 247; see also, vol. 4, p. 53-54, 219-220).
Brigham Young said you are damned if you deny polygamy.
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).
Brigham Young said you can't get to the highest heaven without Joseph Smith's consent.
"...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).
Brigham Young said that God the Father and Mary 'do it.'
"When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 218). "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood -- was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115). Note: the late Bruce McConkie who was a member of the First Council of the Seventy stated "There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events..." (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742).
Brigham Young taught that Adam was God.
"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken -- He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50).
Brigham Young comments about blacks
"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind....Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290).
"In our first settlement in Missouri, it was said by our enemies that we intended to tamper with the slaves, not that we had any idea of the kind, for such a thing never entered our minds. We knew that the children of Ham were to be the "servant of servants," and no power under heaven could hinder it, so long as the Lord would permit them to welter under the curse and those were known to be our religious views concerning them." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 172).
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
“I have a hard time with historians... because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting.”
- Apostle Boyd K. Packer talk delivered at Sunstone Symposium, Salt Lake City, August 19, 1994
You too, have a good life, but please keep your heart and eyes open.
The presenter has a heart of gold and has done incredible work. Not only that but it is incredibly important work. I'd say though that he could really benefit from some help editing and organizing his material, and from some coaching in doing presentations. He has a lot of powerful stuff here; well done.
James, I think you are a dedicated man, sincere in your beliefs, doing your utmost to persuade others (currently at my expense), but you have a good heart. I was in your shoes once, I feel for you. If I can give any advice at all, it would be to continue on towards truth and love, you can't go wrong with truth and love.