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[POE 3.24] Which is better, more offense or more defense?
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- čas přidán 26. 04. 2024
- #Pathofexile #necropolisleague #gamingpodcast
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I think a big part of it is that offence is "Master of one" and defense is "Jack of all".
Hyper specializing is generally the right way to go for damage.
We don't build to counter enemy defenses, we just focus on overwhelming them.
Defense on the other hand must counter every different type of enemy attack scenario.
Hit vs DOT.
Spell vs Attack.
Phys vs Ele vs Chaos.
Evasion & block.
Stuns, Ailments, & Curses.
Reflect.
Spike vs chip.
Ground effects.
Corpse Destruction.
Movement.
Minions (decoys & meat shields).
You can get away with missing layers, but you must have an answer for every scenario you will face.
Also, many defenses are all or nothing.
99% spell suppression is 1000x worse than 100%.
Whereas 5% chance of double damage is worth way more than 5% more due to the way ailments work.
The only way to make attack work like defense is to give monsters actual immunitys
Which suck & feel bad.
That's a really great way to distinguish. Thanks for sharing your thoughts mate!
I think it is pretty clear cut and universal across all builds that in Softcore it is always better to pursue Offence instead of Defence once you have the very basic layers of defence on your build. What I think is a more interesting discussion is to try and think about how you would even change that? Are Defence options too weak, too strong, too difficult to get, too easy to get? Why exactly is it better and can that be changed?
In some ways I find defence options to be too weak. Currently you can progressively upgrade your defence layers on a build and almost never feel an improvement because you encounter situations that feel "untankable" The wrong combination of monster mods, on the wrong map mod, with the wrong altar effect, and then this league with the wrong necropolis lantern effect. It still feels like you just randomly die and that's kinda because you do. It's only once you invest a ton of effort and gear into a defence do you start to feel the rewards of it. To me unless your build is at the point where it can tank basically everything in the game, it just won't feel worth it. Being able to tank 50% of situations vs 70% of situations doesn't really change how your build feels, but being able to tank 100% of situations definitely does.
Compare this to offence where increasing your damage by 30% almost universally leads to 30% less dangerous situations because enemies just die before they can do anything. Take Guardian maps as an example, why learn to avoid their mechanics or build tanky enough to tank them when you could instead pursue just killing them before they attack? Going from 2 Pheonix Aoe nukes down to 1 is a massive increase in survivability and then going from 1 nuke to 0 makes dying to Pheonix almost impossible. To get the same returns from defence, would require much much more investment.
So what is the solution? Is the solution maybe counter intuitively to buff or make defence easier to acquire? If players could realistically reach the upper echelon of tankiness with less effort, would they pursue it?
Another thing to consider is the current reward structure and incentives for players, especially this league with T17s. Currently players are really incentivised to pursue farming in T17s but with how dangerous the maps are we are seeing more and more builds go towards all offence glass cannon to tackle this content vs building defence to tank it. If T17s are our endgame, then why would you build tank when you need offence to clear the map?
Some food for thought. I ultimately don't have an answer or solution, but I think it is pretty clear that Offence is king in PoE as it currently stands.
Imo the main issue is that offense doubles as defense, dead enemies can't usually kill you. And in general the less time an enemy stays alive, the less time he has to do damage.
the main culprit is unironically life regen. (Not as a stat but in general the time and resource cost from 1 hp to max hp)
Because life regen is high, enemies need spiky damage, and because enemies have spiky damage, not getting hit is the best option and to not get hit you need to kill monsters before they kill you.
Though another thing is that optimally you just build enough defense to not die, as you don't get more benefit for more defense.
While you almost always get benefits for more damage.
Unless you have a heavy cost for dying, or it also scales your clear speed defense is a suboptimal stat to stack.
Your point about befenses that are trivial to obtain can be seen once upon a time before ggg nerfed the acquisition of spell supression, many many builds were building it whether they were on the dex side of the tree or not
Got Valdo farmer with 9,6k lifepool (so 5,3k on petri), 116% extra effect progenesis (54%), 21/20 petri blood, 21 arctic armour, 108% life recoup, 2,3k leech, 1,7k regen, can tank ghosted feared in valdos.
Some rares can still instantly destroy me in valdo maps within 1-2 hits with ghosts+essence mods for example. Its beyond silly.
@@Soforcom most builds are still getting spell suppression tbh, just later, it's just an easy tank checkbox
@@satibel i mean the sane logic can be applied the defence tho, you cant do any damage if you are dead or 0 portals. Tbh i read a lot of these posts and it seems like they are lacking a ley understanding in defence that i am not claiming to fully grasp, but at least be able to read pob and adress any issues
Will melee ever stand a chance in the Off-screening giga DPS meta?
Maybe in PoE 2
tl;dr Both, or you will have a really shitty time. Too much damage with no defense? Randomly get 1 shot from stupid off screen or on-death mechanics. Too much tank and not enough damage? Take 20 minutes to clear maps and still die because of entropy. The greater chance for certain mods to stack together perfectly for you to get destroyed.
If you have a way to disable enemy recovery (Such as being an Occultist) Defence is technically the correct answer, since you will *eventually* kill everything even with 1dps (Especially if you do Chaos damage)
A similar question is, "What's the most important side of a triangle"
reddit post was removed by mods cus: Rule #4 - No criticism or complaint posts/comments - This is a sub specifically for talking about builds and mechanics, this is not the place to complain about the state of the game.
kinda bummer
good that you read and covered these fully!
Maybe you could put these posts on pasta as well for future.
must be the same mods that govern mainreddit, too.
If you dont have enough offensive, defense does nothing.
But if you have ultra offensive you start wanting SOME defense because you will keep getting 1 shot which becomes annoying.
But if i have to choose one offensive > defenses. You killing more content faster = you making more currency = you getting stronger which is also a path that makes it possible to get more defenses.
I play characters that scale their damage off their tanky stats for the most part. Armor stacker/replica dreamfeather, SS trickster ephemeral edge etc, and I like the balance these builds provide. I always prioritize the bulk as somone who enjoys Uber bossing and delve, but with mapping characters I can certainly see where more dps could tip the scales
I definitely feel like defences has become less worthy over the past year or so. I had a TS build in 3.23 that had bloodnotch/immutable, spell suppression, wind ward and a few other layers as well. I still died way too often to get past level 95 with 15 mil. dps. With 30 mil. dps i probably would've died less.
I have a hexblast occultist, and a splitting steel trickster. Hexblast is kill them before they kill me, SS is rly good dmg but I can charge into a group and kill them without worrying if I’ll die. I prefer defense.
Stuck at lvl 94 with tanky meta build in softcore SSF. Going to try going to try quite tanky with lots more dmg to see how it goes :). The league mechanic can easily be rippy 100% phys as extra cold with 10% pen those exploding corpse spike things, lol
Have you tried the domination scarab of teachings?
I think this guy messed up something. Also probably didn't concerned himself with what mods he ran, what altars clicked, etc.. etc. maybe even had Back to Basics allocated.
Tankiness comes not just from the build but choosing content you run carefully. Hell, it's mostly about the latter unless you have fuck you levels of tankiness.
As for damage and defences. It's nuanced. You need to meet baseline for both. You need enough damage to not let pack hammer on you and enough defences to be able to not worry about most things that are not supposed to one shot you.
You have a typo in the title!
Good catch!
This will be even more prevalent in PoE 2 where skill/ active dodge can make up for a lack of defensive stats
Great vid!! I’m new to your channel as of this video, I gotta say I like hearing your opinion and probably wouldn’t be huge on hearing the summary of another opinion
Thanks for the kind words Daniel! Much of my approach to hosting PoE discussions is to report and share, rather than proliferate my own opinion. Every once and a while for videos I share my unreserved opinion, and more often on stream I'll share opinions. I appreciate you taking the time to leave your thoughts, welcome to the channel.
@@GoodGuyGaming3 of course mate! I know for me, my instincts to summarize rather than proliferate are often rooted in my self confidence issues, so I’m def projecting.
I just figured that in the event that there is a kernel of self doubt encouraging you to summarize and host, I’d throw in my two cents that I greatly enjoyed your opinion.
Thanks for the welcome :) excited to be here.
The defence vs offence is very important thing to think about.
In atlas there are keystones that eigher:
1)reduce your damage and reduce enemy damage
or
2)increase your damage and increase enemy damage
What are you gonna pick?
If you think damage or defence is better, you should pick something.
For example with paper ranged build the dmg keystone might be better as many things allready 1 shots you anyways and the keystone wont increase the number of 1 shots significantly, while allowing you to evade those potential 1 shots by killing enemies faster.
On the other if you have build that wont be able to evade most hits, it might be better to prepeare yourself to tank them. This works mostly for melee builds that require ramping up damage like poison for example. Especialy with poison the damage gets higher the longer you deal damage and as resault, the health increase wont be that significant.
Another point of view is how accesable is the defence or damage. For example if you have no armour, a single granite flask could increase your defence significantly, while diamond would have little effect on damage.
Also when it comes to defence stacking, its generaly harder than damage stacking. Becouse of this the keystone that reduces enemy damage dealt to you might be great addition for allready high dps builds.
1M ehp and 1B damage here and to do both Is extremely difficult but i think the best thing is to have a build who stack defense and with the combination of item, jewel etc it also stack offense like stacking armor. Best build i ever played
currently playing poison BV PF. I am quite tanky and decent damage 10m + but I cant tank t17 bosses to get my damage off. . . not with all the crazy mods. I would have to chaos spam 100c to get decent mods
Either way, endgame builds are limited. They are gatekept by extremely expensive items. You have to have one of the few skills that scale for offense. Then you have to have all the awakened gems too. With necropolis it's even more pronounced. I can breeze through any content in the game but t17 maps. If i can actually get one to drop. One t17 map with a map based atlas tree. It's pretty ridiculous that the least accessible game in the ARPG market just got more elitist. T16, 8 mod maps are doable with my softcore build. One death every 2 or 3 maps. When i cant replace that +7 proj, elements penetration elite mob with 6000% increased defense.
I personally don't find 1 shotting everything and clearing multiple screens very fun after the novelty wears off. It is like using an invincibility cheat code, or god mode. If there is no risk, it makes the reward much less satisfying.
Matters if you are HC or not
Depends on the content you would like to farm, a good balance always helps.
Coming from a trade league enjoyer, with decent knowledge of the game after roughly 15 leagues, I'd say proper defenses wins. I play a life stacking inquisitor this league, that just cannot die unless I go into very very rippy T17 maps with punishing mods. It feels damn amazing to ignore mechanics and switch your brain off (Granted my damage is enough to easily do all Ubers as well except maven due to degen)
correct me if I am wrong but from my experience as a mid range player i find it significantly harder to get your damage to a very comfortable level with truly well incorporated defensive layers as opposed to get your damage to crazy levels whilst your defences are left lacking therefore for most non high level poe players it will be easier to stack damage with a minor focus on defence
@@theabnormalpenguin8150 I'd say it depends a lot on your experiences with different builds and which type of damage one would be comfortable with. I'd never make one of those "1-shot-everything" kind of builds, as they never would have the defenses I would be looking for.
I basically think it comes down to preferences what you feel works for you.
Also for some additional information - this was my build after the first week. Not super much dps, but really comfortable in terms of tankiness: poe.ninja/builds/necropolis/character/Connexticy/Tornadacy?i=0&search=class%3DInquisitor%26uniqueitems%3DMageblood%2CThe%2BAdorned%2CAnnihilation%2527s%2BApproach&timemachine=week-1
@@theabnormalpenguin8150 coming from a 4k hour 'mid level' player. It really depends on what your build archetype has available for defenses. If youre playing a bow build, most things that arent evasion on gear, suppression, auras, or freeze that are without much opportunity cost will cost 1X or even 1XX divine each ( x2+ phys taken as watchers eyes, bloodnotch/immutable force, progenesis, headhunter in other leagues). So for builds like that you could buy those first or you could buy a really nice bow instead. A lot of defensive options arent supposed to make you tank damage forever though, theyre supposed to buy you extra time to fix your mistake with positioning, or maybe the mob youre facing is stacked too much against what youve specialized in offensively and/or defensively. Perhaps you rolled a map that turns off or bypasses one of your main forms of defense.
Some archetypes just have different gear slots they are guided towards utilizing. Playing a build with life as its hit pool that doesnt want to scale gem levels or use another unique amulet? Congrats you can abuse Defiance of Destiny. Does your build with a nice chunk of armour and lax chest piece requirements not need any other specific type of timeless jewel? Consider utilizing the The Fourth Vow with the Divine Flesh keystone.
bare minimum def requirements, then everything into offense. I'd say 10% def 90% offense is how to build for PoE
Certainly true for PoE 1 SC trade!
I got 6 layers of defense in all my builds: portals
Haha got a laugh from me mate. Well said.
Honestly i think that reddit post is really off base, seems like he doesnt know what true tankiness is.
I am not a fan of the state of PoE today. The maths are out of control. They added too many MORE multipliers over the last 3 dozen patches and now the game has no balance.
offensive, poe has dumb dmg scaling compared to conventional games