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When France STOPPED Britain Bombing Italy In WWII | Haddock Force, June 1940
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- čas přidán 24. 10. 2023
- A special thanks to Julian Hall for his help on this topic.
Sources:
Public Records Office, Kew: AIR-15-323,AIR-15-324, AIR-15-325
RAF Narrative:The campaign in France and the Low Countries September 1939 - June 1940
Bomber Command War Diaries - Middlebrooke/Everitt( amzn.to/3SaZjpw - paid link)
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If this charade is in any way typical of joint operations between Britain and France then small wonder how things went so badly during the German invasion.
As an italian myself i feel very uncomfortable and ashamed of mussolini's stab in the back of the French, as well as the later promise to "break the back" of Greece. Two brother countries....What a shame!!!
Certainly don't feel ashamed about your history. We can only learn from it. If we Brits felt this, we'd never get out of bed with the things our ancestors got up to!
@CalibanRising True - later generations have no apology to give nor shame to live with. Responsibility for any criminality lies with no one but the governments - and individuals - who committed those acts at that time. 👍
Well said.
Lucky you! Mussolini certainly was bad, but Hitler was really evil on a cosmic scale! And I as a German can’t change that, but I can try to do better.
@@CalibanRising Thank you for your comment to my post. Sure i'm happy and proud of my country and its achievements in all fields of human ingenuity; i'm a bit less proud of some other things, like those 20 years of fascist dictatorship. But, of course, you're right: every error brings experience and teachings.
Never mind Haddock Force, was FRANCE worth it? Having already reneged on a Treaty with Poland, neither France nor Britain seemed Politically Trustworthy and, with hindsight, France was a lost cause. Demonstrates how fractured the Anglo/French Relations and Command Structures really were at a such Critical time, luckily, Britain had the Commonwealth (BIG shout out for the RCN!).
Yes, the Royal Canadian Navy is too often forgotten. These are the North Americans who really did save Britain's bacon.
Not forgetting their Aviator `Buddies`!! @@CalibanRising
The Poles were playing a dirty game as well@@moosifer3321
@@CalibanRising The Royal Canadian Navy and it's exploits are never forgotten....but to suggest it saved Britain's bacon is stretching it somewhat don't you think when Britain had both the largest Navy and Merchant Navy in the world.
@@richardhumphrey2685what did Britain win from that needless war.
We lost the empire
We lost our morals
We destroyed continental Europe unnecessarily
We gave Poland east Germany Hungary and all Eastern Europe to the Soviets
We “denazified” Germany and Europe including destroying great beautiful historic buildings like the new Reich chancellery, sportspalast, burghoff and other incredible buildings in Berlin münich Bavaria and Austria.
We now have mass immigration and Europeans are minorities in European cities.
British culture is dying out and being replaced by American and foreign immigrant culture
Christianity is dying out in Europe
Traditional family is gone everyone is forced to celebrate LGBT.
We have no freedom of speech or gun rights and freedoms are disappearing, we have a police state.
We are ruled by corrupt politicians who are overwhelmingly unpopular yet cannot be replaced except by other equally bad politicians
Britain could have ended the war in 1939 or 1940 with favourable peace terms and left Germany to fight the Soviets and Britain could have worked as an intermediate with Jews to negotiate with Germans the safe transport of Jewish refugees to French colonial Madagascar.
I cant See any negatives to peace in 1940, Britain could have kept its empire and economy, millions of lives would be saved, Germany would dominate central and Eastern Europe instead of Soviets and Germans were less hostile than Soviets to British interests.
The utter confusion! I can imagine that both Britain and France's attention were fixed on the North of France and the low lands, Haddock probably relegated to a few hurried words here and there. Whatever the matter, the men did their best amongst this confusion and turmoil.
Yes it seems that way. What I didn't highlight too much here was the fact that AM Barratt was only given administrative command of Haddock Force, which was operationally led by Bomber Command. His plate was too with the other demands of the B.A.F.F, so this just added an extra step in GC Field's line of communication. In Barratt's defence, he did say!
The French ruling class was more afraid of opposition within France than the fascists.
While this ia not the main reason they failed in 1940, it was high on the list. Thankfully the British and their Conmonwealth were equal to the task.
Late as usual, the USA did help tip the balance.
Hello,
if you understand French, go check czcams.com/video/CK9QjdFIpr0/video.html
"French political-military disaster in 1940"
(unfortunately, no English subtitles).
To summarize :
retired Mal Pétain (1918 hero for winning and sparing lives at Verdun)
had plans, since 1936 to defeat "le Front Populaire" leftist government,
losing to Germany was the fastest solution,
on top of it, convenient with his antisemitic views
(the French HQ had been shattered with the Dreyfus "affair",
he later decided "la rafle du Ve'd'Hiv" , not even requested by Nazis).
Mers El Khebir was just another show :
France an Britain had been at war, most of the time, for 6 centuries .
regards,
Gb
And let's not forget Admiral Darlan who refused to allow the French fleet in Oran to join the British and escape possible capture by the Germans. He, along with Petain couldn't wait to get down on their knees and lick Hitlers arse!
@@johnhubbard8357 A little bit like the British government before Churchill came to power.
I wish I could remember the names of the authors, but two articles I’ve previously read came to mind in this. First was one in a history journal arguing that Vuillemin - and his contemporaries - were entirely out of their depth when it came to high level tactical and strategic thinking to run an air force. Their mind did not match their body, as one of the authors said. The other article, I believe written by a USAF colonel, came to much of the same conclusion and also examined the sortie rate of the Armée de l’Air in 1940, finding that it was abysmal in comparison to everyone else at the time.
I have to admit that the Armee de L'air in 1940 is one of the (many) gaps in my knowledge. I'll have to track these articles down.
@@CalibanRising If I can find the names of them, I will post them here!
Thankyou for uploads and hard work required to put these uploads. From this older Canuck history student.
Thanks for watching
Regarding that Anglo-French plan: “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth” - Mike Tyson
thank you for posting this story
Thanks for listening
Oh my God! Doesn’t Air Marshal Barratt look like that old English actor Terry-Thomas?😆 I know I’m just a spry 40 year old whippersnapper compared to him, but I remember old movies like 'Those Magnificent Flying Machines…' rerunning on television when I was a kid.
I can see it! Barratt certainly has a good look going on there.
If he ever smiled you could really expect to see the gap in his front teeth, yes?!
DOUG out
Whose side were the french on? 😂
As usual their own side.
The French fought for both sides.
Both these replies are true.
The French are only ever on the side of the French.
You have to admit that the French did very well in the brothel business during the German occupation though. 🤣
and that was only the Males.@@ivancho5854
The french really like being in charge
Did you have a French girlfriend too?
Haddock Force seems comically apt for for an RAF campaign. Has shades of Dads Army, and Allo Allo with the downed airmen. We forget that in the intervening 80 odd years communications have improved astronomically, and that the fog of war and constantly changing political manoeuvring made the situation for those caught up in it impossible or even doomed to failure.
Very true. Another thing to remember is that all of these communication not via telephone were in code. Most of the documents I was looking at had a note about who had decoded the message. Then the message had to be confirmed before being followed. Very time-consuming!
@@CalibanRising My father was a Royal Navy coder during WW2, and though he and I should have talked more about his experiences, we didn’t, but I gleaned enough to understand that communications were a bit of a dark art. He not only spent time on minesweepers in Home waters, but also in the Med, West and South Africa, Ceylon, Aus and ultimately 6 months as part of the Occupying Forces in Tokyo working on not only Military but also Diplomatic Comms. Incidentally, his 6 month deployment ashore in West Africa (Gold Coast) was relaying comms from east Asia and the whole of the Southern hemisphere to and from GCHQ. It’s incredible now to think of the responsibility he carried over a 5 year period up to his discharge at the age of 24. A grammar school boy, he enlisted in the Navy soon after his 18 birthday, rather than be conscripted into the army and be gassed and bayoneted as his father was at Paschendaele, and came out as a Lieutenant (SP). It’s only now, 7 years after his death, that I realise how proud I am of his achievements.
@@timstradling7764an interesting life, to say the least
Phil ref the 'special thanks', you're welcome :). At one point you quoted that 'the operation was against the wishes of the French government'. That concurs with my own opinion that the desire not to attack Italy was /political/ not military. With Paris already having been declared an open city, and France days away from establishing the Vichy government in the south of France, I think there was a strong desire not to antagonise Hitler, especially as at that time the Wehrmacht was so strong, and British and French forces seemingly spent.
Thank you again. As you know better than most, there's a lot that I had to leave out of this video. My one regret is not being able to look into French documents about this particular episode. It would have been interesting to see what men like Vuillemin were getting down the line from Paris.
Another absolutely fantastic video! You’re outstanding in your field, Thank you for making such brilliant, meaningful and informative videos! Keep up the good work! 👍
Thanks for watching!
The RAF did indeed bomb Italy later in the war.
RAF aircrews preferred bombing Italy to bombing Germany.
The Italians ceased shooting their anti-aircraft guns as soon as the first bombs started to fall.
Mamma Mia, they are responding to us. Im going home...
Had Mussolini been as smart as Franco of Spain and stayed neutral, he would have stayed in power until he died of old age.
Semi Neutral. he was letting German Subs, and airplanes restock in northern Spain.
*_"What a way to run a railroad."_*
Great video.
Thank you for posting.
Wow I guess some of those commanders went on to have successful careers in the circus....
Thanks for watching!
Having read something about this raid some decades back, it was interesting to watch such a wonderful and comprehensive account of what happened. I can't help but wonder just what would have happened had the French invaded Germany on 2nd September 1939. Too bad that, that generation of Frenchmen were not like their fathers, or indeed like every generation of Frenchmen for a 1000 years previous.
Thanks for watching. That's a great "what if" question. I think France was badly led by its government of the time. On the unit level they really started to turn things around in 1940. Even the Germans were impressed by the change in their tactics, especially with the use of artillery against tanks. So I think that the war would have turned out differently had these Frenchmen been unleased the winter before.
I think Field was out for a while with a severe case of whiplash…
Good show friend!
Thanks for the visit
IN other words the Frogs didnt have any more rifles to drop.
Pauvre con. Open history books rather than trying sarcasms.
I wonder about language issues. I assume that French normally was used, and I'm sure that the RAF and British govt liaisons were competent in that language, but could they (always) catch differences between subtle shades of meaning? One wonders.
As a non-native French speaker, I can say that even after years of living in France you can miss things. I'd imagine that people on both sides tried to get things past the other with phrasing.
Should I stay or should I go
Poor Field and the men under his command!
As an aside rhe photograph of Air Marshall Barratt dates from after July 1942 as that's a Type C1 roundel.
Thanks for the extra details. It's a good snap of him though, isn't it?
@@CalibanRisingyes, it is. Good quality film was used. It's not easy to see as it's a bit out of focus but the boundary between the dark grey and dark green bands is merged together to avoid their being a hard boundary between the contrasting colours.
The French were never an ally to the UK, the French fought for both sides in WW2.
What a dogs dinner.
Interesting.
It's a little late to be worried about it now.
Actually the first areial attack on Italy was made by the French Aeronavale on Genova.
I'd love to be corrected as my research showed that No 3 Group Bomber Command hit Turin and Genoa on the night of 11/12 June 1940. So Aeronavale hit Genoa on the 11th June? Could you share your sources so I can read up on it? Appreciate it.
Sorry my memory tricked me. Several night attacks were carried out by 2 Farman 223, the first on the night of 14/15 june on Porto Marghera and the following nights on La Spezzia, Rossignano Alghero and LivornoThe Aeronavale attacks were night of 17/18 june 3 V-156F bombed San Stefano and 10 Latécoére bombed Impoeria and Albenga. One of the Farman 223´s, Jules Verne, even flew to Rome and dropped leaflets (no date).
No worries. I mentioned in this video that the French approached GC Field for intel for their own bombing mission, so that would match up with the raid on Porto Marghera. I didn't have any French primary sources to hand for this project, so thanks for providing these extra details.
Always were and still are untrustworthy
Your first french lesson is now :" vas bien te faire enculer"
Excellent production and narration. Crazy days they must have been but its just another British token effort and a complete debacle. What a waste of men and resources. The French attitude was beyond lunatic, no wonder they lost.
Thanks for watching!
Never. Trust. The French.
Sadly this has been my experience with French girlfriends...Tant pis!
1like&2👍👍 then a thanKXs
France was riddled with Communists and their army though large,poorly lead and still reeling drom affects from WW1.
No, it was not worth it.
for the civilians who survived... probably was
So they left a bunch of there own being. Sorry as an American we don't leave our own behind so to me that is disrespectful
Sorry bud, Americans have been left behind many times, deliberately. Wake Island is one such example in WW2, The Benghazi consulate is a recent example too.
It was pure chaos. Small detachments were arriving left, right and centre, even after orders had been sent to evacuate. GC Field sent a detachment of vehicles up to Perpignan to help evacuate men there, but they never made it back to Salon in time. Having his orders, as contradictory as they were, it would have been foolish for Field to risk his entire command for a single unit of men.