If the siemans machines could just be "reconfigured" to use less blood, wouldnt they have already done it?? Amazing they let this girl into stanford lol
This is why the machines kept smoking... That little blood when there is heat transferred through the energy to funnel it in wouldn't make it past the initial heat spike. She was absolutely idiotic.
Naveen Andrews was deliciously sinister as Sunny, but especially in this scene. Love the diabolical way he talks about opening up the Siemens machine. What a creepy bastard Sunny is.
I don't think she "perfectly" gets the voice - she is not low enough and does not lift her soft pallet enough to get the crazy man-like sound that the real Elizabeth robot version had.
I found it hilarious that the scientists didn't know how it worked. I mean, any expert in that area must have at least an idea about how the Siemens machine worked, but simply couldn't make it work as a smaller machine with just a drop because we don’t have the technology.
you can make a machine that can do one test and make such machine compact and even cheap to manufacture and possibly cheap to sell. 150 blood tests in the same machine, hell no!
Unless you're part of the team that built that Siemens machine or have it's blue prints, it's not easy to reverse engineer something that complex. Also, there's a high chance they'll be committing intellectual property infringement since Siemens has patents on their products. That's why on an earlier scene, the staff were hesitant on Sunny's suggestion to open up the machine.
there is actually already a small blood device out. If I remember it correctly it was the piccolo express the difference was that Elizabeth wanted to run multiple types of test in one small machine. This is only from me reading the book. I’m not a scientist. But how I grasped it was different test are ran with different methods. The piccolo only did specific types of test. She was trying to do most of them and put them in a tiny machine.
This is where the massively fraudulent bit starts. When you start fabricating software that changes the logos on established machines to gain trust. I truly hope she pays for all the people she hurt and defrauded.
Yeah and that is the direct damage she did. The indirect damage may be much worse. Companies that were already working on innovations for blood testing lost financial backing and went out of business or had to switch to different projects as investors thought she had found the holy grail - they stopped investing in what they thought were losers compared to the mighty Theranos. Then after Theranos went belly up, investors naturally stayed away from blood testing research start-ups as they saw how risky it was. Essentially she buried a whole line of research by multiple bio-tech companies, thereby slowing down progress that could be saving lives. She created a chilling effect on bio-tech research.
@@zagreus5773: We have a lot of independent organisations, institutes or companies, like the TÜV, that test and inspect every innovation. This is mandatory for every product before it can be put on the German market. Status quo: Chinese products are far away from any mentionable quality. But they are also improving.
When she earlier told the team, "We're not opening it up," I read that as her telling them to open it up without actually telling them. But of course, they didn't get that message.
@@toomanyaccounts I'm pretty sure there are laws in place to prevent you from opening up a machine in order to inspect how it works, so you can try and replicate it xD
@@cryptidian3530 as I said studying a competitor products isn't illegal by it itself. you can learn what they did and make a vastly improved version provided certain things are done.
Okay, there's a scene where he wants to know why no one opened the machine already and I'm there with him on that question. Open it up and see how it works and how do you make it better? But WTF!?
because it exposes your company to massive breach of intellectual property lawsuits. If I'm an engineer at company A and I make a fancy hinge that is also made by company B, but I have never looked at any company B products, and company B does not own a patent, then I am fine and we can use the hinge however we want. but, if Company A buys a product from company B and has me study it, and then I make the fancy hinge, company B gets to sue for all proceeds made off of the hinge plus punitive damages. As the engineer I will be fired, and when people from companies A and B talk about what I did, I will be viewed as a liability and unemployable at companies c through zzz.
Theranos using other company preparatory tech as their own is Silicon Valley in the nutshell. We saw in a lot of case Silicon Vally companies try to present stuff that already existed as something brand new and shiny (WeWork) and there is also the whole need to reinvent what don't need to be reinvented.
It's called "Reverse Engineering" and depending on the copyright laws in your country, it's highly illegal. It amounts to theft of trade secrets and intellectual property. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's definitely not ethical business practice.
There's a few issues: 1) Recreating the Siemens device is a violation of their intellectual property 2) Relabeling a machine someone else made and taking credit for inventing it is a violation of patent law 3) Telling stakeholders that your product runs on one piece of technology you own when it actually runs on a different piece you don't hold is defrauding your investors 4) Running tests on a different piece of equipment than you say you're going to is a violation of traceability standards, in the medical field that could actually be a malpractice crime
I’d say the larger issue is that she has absolutely no patent technology that was actually functional (that wasn’t codesigned by Ian Gibbons using his knowledge of biotechnology from a prior company iirc) I.e., nothing to build any kind of brand on. No startup should be able to keep fundamental information on the technology from its board of directors; not if they already are slapping everyone with NDAs. I very much doubt Theranos would have reached the heights it did if Don Lucas weren’t on board, because his status as a titan of tech venture capitalism assured other investors of Theranos’s credibility, and he was constantly quashing doubt amidst the board of directors and turning the board against those who “weren’t team players”. A lot of people will blame greed for theranos but I think a huge factor people tend to forget was futurism. I mean, people were working for dirt pay because they believed in Theranos.
@@draenog96 Elon musk " hold my Neuro link and Tesla" 😂... I'm sure the iPhone was deem "impossible" in 90s and before then.... Shut up. Lol your mind is weak so take several seats
I don't understand one thing - It sould be known at industry that blood drop from finger only, it is not enough to make 150 different tests. Why then investors or technician was so naive to believe it is able to create such machine?
It's a part of human psychology: looking from the outside, you could be very objective, but if you think there's a real possibility that you might make billions of dollars from something, especially if the thing appeals to you or is presented by someone that appeals to you, and you're in a social group where people around you have the same interest - your mind might start to play tricks on you. You would start to ignore problems and gaps, you'd start to discount advice that there might be something wrong and listen more to advice telling you this thing is great. If you're emotionally into it enough, and have put a large amount of money and time into the thing, it's very likely you'll stick with it and keep hoping and hoping it will work out long after an objective observer could see things were going off the rails. They're standard psychological biases.
Not to contradict your point, actually this is worse. Nikola's fraud only defrauded people and robbed their money. This fraud had the potential (and maybe it did) kill people.
@@hindolbhattacharya9715 making knowingly false statements as a company ceo has to be viewed more in terms of a physical action like assault or theft. - and be punished accordingly. Until then nothing will change.
They opened the seemans machine! Why ? There are other machines. Is a typewriter a machine? Is a washing machine a machine. I couldn’t be bothered me arse opening dem tings.
She must have had what she thought was a novel approach. I would bet that she was trying to take a limited set of measurements from the sample and train a neural net to do the analysis. - and it didn't work. She got a lot of criticism for having standard machines, like Seimens, in a back room, but that would be necessary to use for calibration. A doctor friend told me recently that we're not far from realizing exactly what Ms Holmes tried to achieve,.
Yes those machines would be necessary for calibration - sure - if you had some other machine to compare their results to. But there was no other machine. The machine she had was far inferior to even the Siemens machine. And that Doctor friend of yours must be smoking from the same crack pipe as Holmes. We are nowhere near achieving what she stated she could do. It is not physically possible with the current technology we have, and is a very very long way off. Holmes was nothing more than a mentally inferior Steve Jobs wannabe - nothing more than a snake oil salesman and huckster - no morals, no qualms, no sense of integrity.
No it was a faulty idea and fraudulent project to begin with. She lacked scientific understanding of concepts she was working with/on, she didn't do any research, there was no substance behind that
..Sometimes I’m like-man they held onto that *drop* like a dog on a 🦴like I if im in the office kitchen I’d just yell CAN WE JUST TRY GIVING IT A LITTLE MORE JUICE MAYBE 🩸idk 2 drops lol…just the rest sounds me like more achievable typea moonshot vs science fiction/mayb unnec like the cool part to me was just having an at home tester…?
Yeah I had the same thought, but then I learned that fingertip blood is not great for most tests, so even a lot of blood from a finger prick may not be useful. Venous blood is necessary for quality, accurate lab testing.
Strapping a fake fat belly onto a slim actor does not make him look overweight. The real Sunny was fat. The belly was so obvious it was actually funny. Maybe Naveen Andrew's should've gained some real weight for his craft 😆
If the siemans machines could just be "reconfigured" to use less blood, wouldnt they have already done it?? Amazing they let this girl into stanford lol
Amazing she got into Stanford? Not really. Money
It didn’t work after they reconfigured it to take less blood. It gave wildly inaccurate results
All they did was take a normal working machine and made it shittier lol
@@Enkarashaddam ha, yes exactly. After 10 years and hundreds of millions of dollars, that is all they accomplished
This is why the machines kept smoking... That little blood when there is heat transferred through the energy to funnel it in wouldn't make it past the initial heat spike. She was absolutely idiotic.
Naveen Andrews was deliciously sinister as Sunny, but especially in this scene. Love the diabolical way he talks about opening up the Siemens machine. What a creepy bastard Sunny is.
They both did a great job playing their roles
The crazy part is Holmes claimed , in her defense, that the bastardized Siemens machine was proprietary Theranos tech
Of course she did. The first thing her mind does is make her the hero and then she goes from there.
She perfectly emulates the voice too, which is an essential part of Holmes' character -- in the sense that Holmes was essentially an actor herself
I don't think she "perfectly" gets the voice - she is not low enough and does not lift her soft pallet enough to get the crazy man-like sound that the real Elizabeth robot version had.
Their relationship reminds me of Hell’s Kitchen Amy’s baking company relationship with her and her husband. They both were enablers.
Yes!! And both raging, lying psychopaths.
Source?
STOP U READ MY MIND
Probably the most sincere ‘I love you’ she ever said
Probably haha
“Phase one until you make it” 🤣
“See homer, that’s why your robot didn’t work!”
The actor who plays Sunny has a great psycho-partnership chemistry with Amanda Seyfried.
Sayid from Lost!
HIs acting is SO ANNOYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I love his acting, the person he plays in this series actually is annoying
If i ever had to work with a short-tempered, controlling, lunatic like that guy, I'd quit on the spot.
I found it hilarious that the scientists didn't know how it worked. I mean, any expert in that area must have at least an idea about how the Siemens machine worked, but simply couldn't make it work as a smaller machine with just a drop because we don’t have the technology.
That I guess is known as Idiot Technology on their part
you can make a machine that can do one test and make such machine compact and even cheap to manufacture and possibly cheap to sell. 150 blood tests in the same machine, hell no!
Unless you're part of the team that built that Siemens machine or have it's blue prints, it's not easy to reverse engineer something that complex. Also, there's a high chance they'll be committing intellectual property infringement since Siemens has patents on their products. That's why on an earlier scene, the staff were hesitant on Sunny's suggestion to open up the machine.
there is actually already a small blood device out. If I remember it correctly it was the piccolo express the difference was that Elizabeth wanted to run multiple types of test in one small machine. This is only from me reading the book. I’m not a scientist. But how I grasped it was different test are ran with different methods. The piccolo only did specific types of test. She was trying to do most of them and put them in a tiny machine.
Dude, /I/ know how the work rofl.
There are specialized companies like Munro who do nothing but take apart machines and write reports about how they work. It's a legit business.
Unless you had to promise not to open it. Copy right. Better come up with a good story on how you thought of the solution.
Ben Affleck did that, but they kept erasing his memory after each job 😳
It’s not illegal to reverse engineer a product BUT it is illegal to claim another companies technology as your own.
@@CHMichael A lot of companies embargo other companies from buying their machines, but people have tricks on doing it.
props to Siemens
The actor playing Sunny also played Sayid in Lost, he looks so different here.
Guys thx for those videos.
This is where the massively fraudulent bit starts. When you start fabricating software that changes the logos on established machines to gain trust. I truly hope she pays for all the people she hurt and defrauded.
she kind of crossed that line when she was doing trials on cancer patients.
Yeah and that is the direct damage she did. The indirect damage may be much worse. Companies that were already working on innovations for blood testing lost financial backing and went out of business or had to switch to different projects as investors thought she had found the holy grail - they stopped investing in what they thought were losers compared to the mighty Theranos. Then after Theranos went belly up, investors naturally stayed away from blood testing research start-ups as they saw how risky it was. Essentially she buried a whole line of research by multiple bio-tech companies, thereby slowing down progress that could be saving lives. She created a chilling effect on bio-tech research.
No one is copying German quality products so easily.
Now she can be described officially as "crazy".
The Chinese do.
@@zagreus5773 Chinese and German engineering are two completely different things lol. Just compare Mercedes-Benz to any car china makes.
@@zagreus5773 very badly
True
@@zagreus5773: We have a lot of independent organisations, institutes or companies, like the TÜV, that test and inspect every innovation. This is mandatory for every product before it can be put on the German market. Status quo: Chinese products are far away from any mentionable quality. But they are also improving.
When she earlier told the team, "We're not opening it up," I read that as her telling them to open it up without actually telling them. But of course, they didn't get that message.
Naveen’s prosthetic belly 😂
This scene is the epitome of "fake it till you make it"
A situation like this seems equivalent to a boy opening up a car model kit that doesn't have any instructions....
From her perspective, yes. But in the real world, this is illegal, from top to bottom.
@@cryptidian3530 True but she cared not.....
@@cryptidian3530 studying your competitors products is not illegal by itself. its what you do with it.
@@toomanyaccounts I'm pretty sure there are laws in place to prevent you from opening up a machine in order to inspect how it works, so you can try and replicate it xD
@@cryptidian3530 as I said studying a competitor products isn't illegal by it itself. you can learn what they did and make a vastly improved version provided certain things are done.
“Fake It till you make it” taken a tad too far
Okay, there's a scene where he wants to know why no one opened the machine already and I'm there with him on that question. Open it up and see how it works and how do you make it better? But WTF!?
because it exposes your company to massive breach of intellectual property lawsuits. If I'm an engineer at company A and I make a fancy hinge that is also made by company B, but I have never looked at any company B products, and company B does not own a patent, then I am fine and we can use the hinge however we want. but, if Company A buys a product from company B and has me study it, and then I make the fancy hinge, company B gets to sue for all proceeds made off of the hinge plus punitive damages. As the engineer I will be fired, and when people from companies A and B talk about what I did, I will be viewed as a liability and unemployable at companies c through zzz.
Theranos using other company preparatory tech as their own is Silicon Valley in the nutshell. We saw in a lot of case Silicon Vally companies try to present stuff that already existed as something brand new and shiny (WeWork) and there is also the whole need to reinvent what don't need to be reinvented.
This is an actual business tactic though right? Where businesses would open up and study the parts of products of their competitors?
It's called "Reverse Engineering" and depending on the copyright laws in your country, it's highly illegal. It amounts to theft of trade secrets and intellectual property. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's definitely not ethical business practice.
Of course. Compaq followed IBM's standards even better than IBM did.
There's a few issues: 1) Recreating the Siemens device is a violation of their intellectual property 2) Relabeling a machine someone else made and taking credit for inventing it is a violation of patent law 3) Telling stakeholders that your product runs on one piece of technology you own when it actually runs on a different piece you don't hold is defrauding your investors 4) Running tests on a different piece of equipment than you say you're going to is a violation of traceability standards, in the medical field that could actually be a malpractice crime
@@Vega3gx Thank you.
I’d say the larger issue is that she has absolutely no patent technology that was actually functional (that wasn’t codesigned by Ian Gibbons using his knowledge of biotechnology from a prior company iirc) I.e., nothing to build any kind of brand on. No startup should be able to keep fundamental information on the technology from its board of directors; not if they already are slapping everyone with NDAs. I very much doubt Theranos would have reached the heights it did if Don Lucas weren’t on board, because his status as a titan of tech venture capitalism assured other investors of Theranos’s credibility, and he was constantly quashing doubt amidst the board of directors and turning the board against those who “weren’t team players”. A lot of people will blame greed for theranos but I think a huge factor people tend to forget was futurism. I mean, people were working for dirt pay because they believed in Theranos.
“Machine”
Like she was afraid of what's 8nside her own machine
I don't believe in you. I love you for that.
She reached climax upon seeing the inside
I actually believed this idea that she can make her visions.
Bet Elon Musk will/could do it
@@dannydark1452 it was never possible in the first place
@@draenog96 Elon musk " hold my Neuro link and Tesla" 😂... I'm sure the iPhone was deem "impossible" in 90s and before then.... Shut up. Lol your mind is weak so take several seats
only in a disney movie
@@draenog96 nono, Elon can create his own visions
German Hardware is hard to mimic.
Very true
5th episode 30:40 min
see all those wires homer, thats why your robot didnt work.
I don't understand one thing - It sould be known at industry that blood drop from finger only, it is not enough to make 150 different tests.
Why then investors or technician was so naive to believe it is able to create such machine?
It's a part of human psychology: looking from the outside, you could be very objective, but if you think there's a real possibility that you might make billions of dollars from something, especially if the thing appeals to you or is presented by someone that appeals to you, and you're in a social group where people around you have the same interest - your mind might start to play tricks on you. You would start to ignore problems and gaps, you'd start to discount advice that there might be something wrong and listen more to advice telling you this thing is great. If you're emotionally into it enough, and have put a large amount of money and time into the thing, it's very likely you'll stick with it and keep hoping and hoping it will work out long after an objective observer could see things were going off the rails. They're standard psychological biases.
Lexus opened Mercs & BMWs before making their own.
Funny they call this the dropout because she is basically ran the company like a college student who plagiarizes and cuts corners
Hahah so true!!
Remember Nikola? Trevor rolled a truck down a hill to defraud investors and is having a jolly time in his mansion.
We learned nothing from this.
Not to contradict your point, actually this is worse. Nikola's fraud only defrauded people and robbed their money. This fraud had the potential (and maybe it did) kill people.
@@hindolbhattacharya9715 making knowingly false statements as a company ceo has to be viewed more in terms of a physical action like assault or theft. - and be punished accordingly.
Until then nothing will change.
Was there a phase 2 ever?
nope. it was all a scam. everyone in the medical sciences considered her company a fraud
Bankruptcy
Gaslighting at its worst.
They opened the seemans machine! Why ? There are other machines. Is a typewriter a machine? Is a washing machine a machine. I couldn’t be bothered me arse opening dem tings.
She must have had what she thought was a novel approach. I would bet that she was trying to take a limited set of measurements from the sample and train a neural net to do the analysis. - and it didn't work. She got a lot of criticism for having standard machines, like Seimens, in a back room, but that would be necessary to use for calibration. A doctor friend told me recently that we're not far from realizing exactly what Ms Holmes tried to achieve,.
Yes those machines would be necessary for calibration - sure - if you had some other machine to compare their results to. But there was no other machine. The machine she had was far inferior to even the Siemens machine. And that Doctor friend of yours must be smoking from the same crack pipe as Holmes. We are nowhere near achieving what she stated she could do. It is not physically possible with the current technology we have, and is a very very long way off. Holmes was nothing more than a mentally inferior Steve Jobs wannabe - nothing more than a snake oil salesman and huckster - no morals, no qualms, no sense of integrity.
No it was a faulty idea and fraudulent project to begin with. She lacked scientific understanding of concepts she was working with/on, she didn't do any research, there was no substance behind that
She can look at my sieman any dau
I'll go out and arrange your bail.
..Sometimes I’m like-man they held onto that *drop* like a dog on a 🦴like I if im in the office kitchen I’d just yell CAN WE JUST TRY GIVING IT A LITTLE MORE JUICE MAYBE 🩸idk 2 drops lol…just the rest sounds me like more achievable typea moonshot vs science fiction/mayb unnec like the cool part to me was just having an at home tester…?
Yeah I had the same thought, but then I learned that fingertip blood is not great for most tests, so even a lot of blood from a finger prick may not be useful. Venous blood is necessary for quality, accurate lab testing.
Strapping a fake fat belly onto a slim actor does not make him look overweight. The real Sunny was fat.
The belly was so obvious it was actually funny.
Maybe Naveen Andrew's should've gained some real weight for his craft 😆