Did Ibn Fadlan meet the Vikings in Russia?
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- čas přidán 7. 04. 2023
- When we think of the Vikings one of the most memorable images is of the burning funeral ship, an image that has largely been drawn from one man's account of a group of people called the Rus, camped along the Volga river, somewhere in modern-day Russia.
Clips taken from:
Vikings Series (HBO)
The Thirteenth Warrior (1999)
The Northman (2022)
Music Used:
Lost Frontier - Kevin MacLeod
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#documentary #vikings #history
Ibn Fadlan also met with many nomadic Turkic peoples like Oghuzes, Bulgars and Bashkirs.
The leader of the Bulgarians said that they are not from the Turks, and he was racist, and said that the Turks resembled the Chinese, and said that I find that they allied with Attila
@@user-cg2tw8pw7j
Turkic and Jewish genealogical myths recorded by King Joseph and Sefer Yosippon identified Khazar as the "brother" of other Turkic tribes like the Bulgars and Sabirs (see below). Syriac legends said that the ancestor of the Khazars was named "Khazarig," the brother of "Bulgarios." Most scholars believe that these legends have a historical basis and that the Khazars were indeed closely related to Turkic tribes such as the Bulgars and Bashkirs.
Note: Bulgars and Bulgarians are different peoples.
@@papazataklaattiranimam This king who spoke with Ibn Fadlan says that a large number of his people immigrated to the country of the Romans and made a state if the two were from the same people
@@papazataklaattiranimamt’s reasonable to assume the steppe has always been a spectrum of ethnicity just like we see today. In relation and race from West to East from almost completely European Hungarians and Ukrainian Cossacks to the basically perfectly mixed West and East Eurasian Kazakhs and tatars to the almost totally East Asian Mongols. With all those people sharing, if even by just a tiny amount, some common ancestry.
>Turkish Vikings
LMAO
Muslim/Jewish/Christian history is propaganda.
The Rus were mostly Swedish Vikings. Remember, this was before both Sweden and Norway existed as countries. Sweden is still called Ruotsi by the Finnish and "Rusar" was something that the Scandinavians called themselves back then.
Btw, the reason why Russia is called Russia is because the Vikings populated some of the area which later became Russia. The Vikings actually used that sea route above Russia to get to the far east for trade. Many items from the far east has been discovered on eg the island Gotland
Red hair is moderately common among Scandinavian peoples, though it does not exceed four percent. The people on Earth with the highest incidence of red hair are, by great measure, the Udmurts, a people who speak a Uralic language, specifically in the Permic branch of that family. They live now, as they have since antiquity, along the middle and upper reaches of the Volga, just to the north of the area visited by Ibn Fadlan. In traditional Udmurt folk costume, women cover their breasts with a large number of coins, pendants, and a variety of finely crafted metallic objects. There are more than a half million Udmurts living today in this same area. Their immediate neighbours to the south are the Bashkirs, a Turkic-speaking Sunni Muslim people with whom Ibn Fadlan was familiar, and who are also documented by Ibn Ruste and al-Kashgari. The physical appearance and customs of these two peoples are strikingly different.
small metal discs as accessories or woven into the edges of clothing seem to be quite common in central and northern asia nowadays
But he said the swords where of the "Frankish type"? That means the typical sword of Viking Age Western Europe. They made that type in England, France, Germany and Scandinavia. It is not only from the Frankish realm. Archaeology revels that they where made on Gotland in an industrial scale most likely for export.
The Vikings exported swords to Persia, so he would have known very well the type of swords Western Europe had.
@@alicelund147 its even possible that Persian steel made its way into Europe, only to be shaped into swords and traded or sold back 😳
@@beepboop204 Yes they traded a lot through Scandinavia in both directions in that time.
@@alicelund147 i think its very fair to say that some level of globalization has always been in effect, just before Ebay you had a 3 year boat trip lol
Just to add some more context to this topic:
I've lately read "The Pechenegs- Nomads in the Political and Cultural Landscape of Medieval Europe" (which is free to download for everyone interested) and "Reiternomaden in Europa- Hunnen, Awaren, Ungarn". Interestingly enough, it seems nomadic groups in the Pontic Steppe mostly used saber like swords (only one sharp side and either straight or curved). Those sabers were very common not only in Avar, Magyar, Peçenek and Oghuz cultural realms but also kind of standard equipment with (mostly) türkic Mercenary and Slave soldiers in the Abbasid Caliphate. Talking about Frankish Swords in the Steppe and Forest Steppe Context might just mean ~any~ kind of two-sided blade, especially considering Arab sources often identify them with "Frankish" Western Europe. It's very likely done to differentiate the Swords of those ~Rusiyyah~ Ibn Fadlan encounters to those worn by the Bolghar and Peçenek Groups in the Area, not necessarily meaning they actually come from Francia.
This actually gives me more appreciation for the old Antonio Banderas movie The 13th warrior. It isn’t %100 accurate but still great they did more research than Vikings Valhalla 😅😂
This is fantastic video. It deserves way more views!
Such a thorough video, amazing
I watched someone resuming no doubt Ibn Fadlan met with Vikings because according to his narration I felt his admiration and same time his disgust to those people exactly the same way we fell about the Viking today.
I love how your first reference is from a guy named P. Golden
It's not the fiction writer, Peter Allen Golden. It's the historian, Peter Benjamin Golden
@@ronmaximilian6953 i think what he meant was that the name "P. Golden" it self have a comedic value to it. Basically, a meme material.
Maybe you wanted to mention it in the second video, but the most obvious glaring thing that points that these Rus were Norse is the fact that they had a ship burial. I know of no slavic, pecheneg, bulgar or khazar ship burials. In Eastern Europe there are four excavated ship burial all connected to the Norse/ Varangians. There is an 8th century ship burial in Estonia, also clearly Scandinavian origin.
Slavs didn't have ship burial before the Norse appears nor do they have them after their culture merged. There is no indication that Slavs were interested in ship burials at all.
The Abbasids traded swords with the Franks, they were well known and liked. They appear in several treatises from the 10-11th century discussing swords. A high ranking evoy would be certainly familiar with them.
^ This.
Also A Viking specialist, Neil Price, noted that the "Vikings" as we associated today indeed have many varieties of burying their dead (not just putting them inside the ground. They're also did it via cremation, and how they're quite creative on utilizing human sacrifices, unfortunately (this is a very close claim to what Ibn Fadlan said in his account).
@@reteguy7338 The biggest viking ship there has been found remains of in Norway was burned, then they made a grave mound around it. Thankfully not every ship was burned, so we could find preserved ones.
Great video!
Hello Hilbert. As a teenager I toured Europe with my Muslim friend. When staying with his family, it was clear his younger cousin was fascinated about how I did not follow Islamic practices, but it was just human nature to be curious. Bits of this reminded me of that. Similarly I loved the Turkish naan in Frankfürt, but my friend quietly pointed out that his aunt had specially bought me sliced bread, so I would feel at home. I switched to this and made a point of enjoying it.
His uncles from the other side of his family enjoyed a German beer on the quiet and thought I was Muslim when I did not want one. Despite being just seventeen, I had experience of its strength and did not want to be tipsy in front of his devout aunt, where were staying.
In short, it is hard to draw conclusions based on such little evidence.
Being from an area that celebrates its Viking history, it is tempting to want the people described to be Norse:-
2 + 2 = Thor!⚡🪓🗡🔪
I see the point you are making. The evidence we have should be taken carefully as it is biased through local temporal context. However, it is still the best evidence we have so if we had to make a guess, i'd say this evidence is better than nothing.
You strike me as being both humble and observant, the best qualities for exploring the world.
The term franks were sometimes used to just refer to western Europeans in general during the early crusades and also referring to merceranies hired from the west pre crusades if I recall correct
Yeah, In all arabic literature "Franks" are just western Europeans in general (I am an Arab btw)
very happy u are back to makling early medieval stuff - did you finish ur degree in anglo saxon studies btw? dunno if you read comments but would be interested considering ur variety in this channel and i always notice ur medieval content is a bit more nuanced than your modern stuff ( i like both but i do notice the former being of higher quality)
The Viking sword was actually ahead of its time. The technic were probably imported for by the far east, like China or Japan, as they used a similar technic forging their swords.
Why assume that Viking culture was identical everywhere? It's possible that an offshoot group of Vikings that didn't do things exactly the way they they did them in Scandinavia. Also, did he always describe women's clothes? He may just not have found them as interesting as their accessories.
I've wondered about the "tattooing" & thought it's possible it's a description of ornate scroll embroidery on/around the collar, sleeves & hem of shirts/tunics & possibly on the breeches/leg wraps.
That the early Rus like Sviatislav and Yaroslav still had close ties to their Varamgian brwthren is pretty much documented -
that how the Varangians came to serve as mercenaries and imperial guard in Costantinople.
Similarly the trade of Varamgians with Arabs/goods that came f om the muslim part of the workd is also archeologically documented.
its the seither that gives credibility to me. i think its gislis saga where he goes to meet a "witch", who pulls his dress over his head and looks back through his legs to see the other world. i think if im not mistaken its nearly exactly the same in ibn fadlans account of the ship burial. except it isnt a cross dressing man in ibn fadlans account. it seems to me it would be nearly impossible for both accounts to have that specific detail without there being some truth to it
There was no Russia during ibn Fadlan's time. The state of Bulghar he visited is not Russian. Russians conquered it in 16th century. It is today's Tatarstan.
There was the Kievan Rus and the older Rus Khaganate, which has been focused on the Volga. Ibn Fadlan called Kings, Grand Princes, Khans and Khagans "Malik," which is generally translated as king in English.
The second Volga Bulghar capital, Bilyar, was destroyed by the Mongols.
Sure, but should we consider Kievan Rus Russia? Considering how this state was the origin to Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian statehood, I don’t think that this would be accurate.
Well no shit it wasn’t Russia back then but he is using Russia as the modern name of the are in which he was at
@@D.S.handlewas it under the umbrella of the USSR? Then it’s Russia at some point and can be labeled as such eventually.
On the green lines, my interpretation has always been that he's seeing their veins.
Thank you.
Idea for next episode: When did the Punic language die out in North Africa?
I've wondered for a while what were the consequences of rape in all these cultures in society Greek Roman Medieval Times Viking Arab Indian because surprisingly assaults have changed history and we're usually a big thing in ancient and were a thing for thousands of years
The crime of rape is murder or for this person to make the girl’s family marry the girl, which is impossible
Aaah reminds me of the movie the 13th warrior
So cool dude.
Do a video on the Black Irish of Monsterrat in the Caribbean
I've always found it unlikely that they did all of that horrible crap in a shared basin.
Because your ego can’t cope with the fact that the Vikings (that you probably identify with like some buffoonish media consumer) were queer swingers and filthy degenerates.
@@thebrocialist8300 a little like you?
I believe Ibn Fadlan did meet Vikings in time in Russia.
One more people who were Pagan.
Russia was a meeting ground of different people, religious believe
And lads being lads, how many people that's take charge of their ablutions when drunk ????
Ibn, have a beer for the Lords sake 😂
Ironically, it was an angel of the Lord who declared that Ishmael and his descendants would grow to be a "wild ass of a man".
And now they wipe their asses with their left hands and then upon their tunic.
are you half Dutch, half English.. or other things as well?
oh i didnt know this at all, every sourcce involving this never says "btw they met ina russian river" also i thought the ceremonies and traditions were much different than what we know from the annals
The abbasid caliphate have a good relationship with their frankish Empire does they are the enemy Byzantine Empire and have a relatively the good the diplomatic relationship
16:29 i think the translation is wrong because in the verse irlt says حمار which means donkey
18:34 nabith ( نبيذ ) means wine
Ass = Donkey lol
The tree-shaped tattoos could be tamgas. The Rus took over the Khazar Khaganate and its well established slave trade with Constantinople and Baghdad. Turkic tribes from Central Asia introduced in Khazaria the use of tamgas, specific bident and trident symbols used to brand the livestock and slaves. Vladmir's tamga is depicted on today's Ukrainian flag...
Very interesting, please go on with your arabic sources!
Tattooing was a custom of ancient Celts and some Roman-era Germanics; not medieval Norsemen.
I am inclined to believe he did but I don't know
seeing the recent weaponisation of history by russia, it’s more ethical to call the primary chronicle - the Kyivan Rus primary chronicle or Tale of bygone years.
Describing the swords as being damascene, is just plain wrong.
There is no evidence of Damascus steel (more properly known as Wootz steel), in Norse (or other European Viking age) swords ...and referring to mere simple pattern-welding, as Damascus or damascene, is very wrong and misleading.
Regarding Ibn Fadlan’s words about the disgusting Rus' ablution , which Vikings fans did not like, I strongly believe that it was just a morning ablution of drunk Norsemen after a heavy drinking night
"Risala" does not mean account in arabic it means it translates to message or letter
3:35 Lol what? Well, Slavs also have blond hair. Not only Scandinavians have blond hair...
06:19 people spoke Greek
Read the book of ibn Fadlan and you’ll quickly notice that Russia as in modern times did not exist, even if some nationalists today wish so…
Watching to understand why his account was “exaggerated”
Most accounts were back then
Great arabic pronounciation! (or as most Arabs would say, good attempt)
I introduced the best betting platform to my Landlord last week, as am talking now we're both tenants 😹🤔
mybe he meet with russian not viking
I think Ibn Fadlan should be read with a good portion of skepticism. I think he salted his descriptions a great deal which, as we know, wasn't uncommon at all.
Ahmad ibn Fadlan was a 10th-century Muslim written his travels as a member of an embassy of the Abbasid caliph, al-Muqtadir of Baghdad, to the king of the Volga Bulgars,
The king Volga Bulgars said this to Fadlan when he fadlan explained to the king that he left the money behind.
“You came a whole lot of you, my master spent what he spent on you. Only in order that this money brought to me so that I might build fortress. That will protect me from the Jews that enslave me”
So interesting that not a single CZcams video mentioned this conversation with the king that he wrote down and anyone could go read right now
Why he lie about their hygiene
🙃🙃🙂🙂
Ibn Fadlan's hygienic claims aren't really convincing since other Turkic groups like the Yueban were always noted with their good hygiene in Chinese chronicles
Turks are not Vikings
@@nara808 Yes but they neighbored them and as the video indicates were likewise mentioned as unhygienic by Ibn Fadlan
His statements about Turkic hygiene is really inaccurate.
Medieval Arab writers saw hygiene as being tied to ritual washing, not personal health.
The correct way for a man to ritually wash himself before prayer, according to Islam, is to pour water over himself, not to bathe in water. So if you took a bath without pouring (running) water over yourself, to medieval Arab writers that would have been unhygienic, even if you used fresh hot water, oils and perfumes. And if you washed your hands before eating but not after eating, that too would have been considered unhygienic by medieval Arab writers, because Islam dictates that you should wash your hands after eating.
@@nara808 viking is not an ethnicity, its an occupation, or if you like, a job
I'm skeptical if Fadlan had met the Norse, or if he did then he grossly embellished them in his account. None of the other accounts of pre-Christian Germanic peoples from Julius Caesar to the Anglo-Saxon chronicles or accounts from the Sagas themselves either don't mention anything similar to what Fadlan wrote or give conflicting accounts of their culture and religion.
For example, Julius Caesar writes how Germanic peoples considered it honorable to wait until marriage and infidelity was considered shameful, accounts from later Sagas agree with this as unfaithful people are often punished by the gods. Frankish law strictly forbids non-consensual intercourse with slaves. Both the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons observed how clean and organized the North Germanic peoples were. The death ritual of the North Germanic people can be found in Beowulf and it is dissimilar. Additionally there's never been any bodies of slaves found buried with their owners in Germanic graves.
@@xXArtemis5Xx lol if you think Caesar was truthful but Fadlan was not. we know what people SAID. we know very little of how they were living.
@Marcus so what is the point of the comments then?
Except the ship burials. Ship burials were not known or practiced on the steppe. All ship burials ever found in Russia, Ukraine or Estonia are clearly Scandinavian origin. With Scandinavian clinker built ships, Mjolnir amulets and the rest.
Slavs, Khazars, Bulgars, Pechenegs, Magyars Scythians, Alans, etc practiced no ship burial.
To claim that they were not Norse you have to point to a culture in the area that practiced ship burials at the time. Or ever.
Nothing ibn Fadlan mentioned is contradictory to anything we know from the Sagas or from archeology.
@@adam-k So because Fadlan mentions a ship burial he's automatically correct? Despite the fact there's never been a single Germanic ship grave found with a slave burried alongside their master, animals yes but no slaves. I double checked the contents of every major Scandinavian ship burial: Ladby, Gokstad, Oseberg, Tune, and Gjellestad. Also including the Black Grave in Ukraine in which a father in burried with his son and is the only one with the best evidence that slaves were involved because beads were present, which is very weak evidence. Also you would be wrong to say only the Norse practiced ship burials, the ship burial found at Sarsky fort in Russia contains strong elements of Merya Finnic culture in addition to the Norse customs suggesting a cultural synthesis and thus no longer exclusive to Germanic culture and likely happened elsewhere in Eastern Europe.
👇🫵
The history of Russia begins with the histories of the East Slavs.[1][2] The traditional start-date of specifically Russian history is the establishment of the Rus' state in the north in 862, ruled by Varangians.[3][4][5] Staraya Ladoga and Novgorod became the first major cities of the new union of immigrants from Scandinavia with the Slavs and Finns. In 882, Prince Oleg of Novgorod seized Kiev, thereby uniting the northern and southern lands of the Eastern Slavs under one authority, moving the governance center to Kiev by the end of the 10th century, and maintaining northern and southern parts with significant autonomy from each other. The state adopted Christianity from the Byzantine Empire in 988, beginning the synthesis of Byzantine and Slavic cultures that defined Russian culture for the next millennium.
Kievan Rus' ultimately disintegrated as a state due to the Mongol invasions in 1237-1240 along with the resulting deaths of significant numbers of the population, and with the numerous principalities being forced to accept the overlordship of the Mongols.
Kyivan Rus' - not "russia"!
sometimes these little distinctions are very important
It's a predecessor state to Russia and Ukraine, like how Rome is for Italy. But yeah, using proper names is important.
Rus Khaganate on the Volga came first. This isn't the Dnieper.
@Marcus Complete nonsense! After the sacking of Kiev by the mongols the population fled to Moscow, then a small town in the principality of Vladimir. Which was ruled by Kievan Rus' royality since Vladimir the great. They Built the Moscow principality into a Grand Duchy. It's first ruler"Daniel of Moscow" mother was "Princess Vassa" of the Rurik dynasty, the founders of kievan Rus'.
That's historical fact. Russia and Moscow is factually the successor state in every definition of the word. And your nationalist hogwash with no historical backing won't make it otherwise.
Literally where Russia gets its name nzi
CZcams wouldn't let me like this video.
You're being abused by them.
Ibn Fadlan would have absolutely NO problems, with having sex with ones slaves. *_That was common practice, among muslims of the time,_* married or not.
The only thing he would find weird, is how open they were about it.
first
First😮
bruh
I don't believe these arab stories much
Why
@@ArlecchinoAKAFather xcuzzz we edgyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Because he’s a racist little boy
@@ArlecchinoAKAFathercoz he is a east european fffffk
Coz he hates showers like vikings
what about Ibn Sharmouta?
He did your mom kelbi
Nigga😂
😂😂😂😂😂😂