Calvary Chapel and Gay Celibate Theology
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Pastor Mike Solecki shares his experience at Calvary Chapel Albuquerque and then talks broadly about Calvary Chapel and gay celibate theology, including addressing Preston Sprinkle's conferences hosted at Calvary Chapel Boise. Pastor Solecki addresses compromise in Calvary Chapel Global Network and concerns about Calvary Chapel Network.
#calvarychapel #calvarychapelassociation #calvarychapelglobalnetwork #prestonsprinkle #calvarychapelboise
00:00:00 Gay Celibate Theology
00:07:20 Calvary Chapel ABQ & CC Network
00:39:54 Calvary Chapel Global
01:01:20 Preston Sprinkle & Calvary Boise - Zábava
A little compromise leads to more compromise down the road.
Syncretism is a creeping cancer
True
A little leaven leavens the entire loaf...
@@jackuber7358 Precisely
I'm an elder at Calvary Chapel of Jonesboro, AR. Thanks so much for making me aware of this! I love Conversations that Matter!
I have considered bringing our church under the Calvary Chapel Church banner. We are in the NW corner of Arkansas. This just changed my mind
I don’t know how to differentiate, but I’m sure not all Calvary Chapel association pastors agree with the woke nonsense concerning sexual relationships. Terrible to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but yes, some might need to speak out.
Don’t be deceived… in 2008, I was a gay-identified man, in a committed, monogamous same-sex relationship, active in an affirming church, then found myself in an ICU where the medical team classified me clinically dead after a 22-minute flatline. I experienced death, judgement and hell. When I couldn’t take any more demonic torment, I cried out in repentance, “Jesus!” and I heard the Savior say, “I am here.” At that moment, I saw with my eyes the Wind of the Holy Spirit fill my ICU and with great power, He pick up Satan and the demonic and blew them out of the room. On that day, my life changed, the redemptive Blood of Jesus cleared my mind, and completely healed and restored every failing organ. Glory to God!
Did that experience heal you from SSA?
@@j.p.5716 yes
Praise God! What an amazing story!
@@j.p.5716 yes it did
Pastor Mike is the real deal. Have known him for many years, he has a great understanding of the Bible and has been unwavering through all the different waves of societal pressures. Love you brother, keep up the good work! God bless!
Sarah laughed when God she would have a child, if she can have a child as an old lady, God can change mans desire
People forget that Abram also laughed at God's decree.
God can heal all physical diseases too.
Good point!!
@@BeksWorld Abram though laughed at God's face. Sarai lied about her laughing thinking God could not know. There's one major difference between the sexes. Men throw over the top, and women are under handed. Before you deny this, see the interactions of children. Compare male vs female bullies. Both are sinners, but one is open rebellion and the other is more commonly secret hypocrisy. Now, religious leaders (cue Pharisees, Saducees and the typical modern pastor) act as women. Not all, the Doug Wilsons, James White, John McArthur, Voddie and many more are manly men; as opposed to the soft effeminacy that surround them. Laodicea Ascendant is misnadric and gynocentric.
Struggling with same sex tendency comes from the world not from the spirit
Hi Jon, as a Calvary Chapel pastor i am looking forward to hearing this "conversation that matters"
Are you female? I ask only because of your CZcams name.
Jon.
Excellent episode here.
So glad that pastor Mike shared so openly and urgently about this topic. This issue needs a great deal more discussion and greater awareness.
Preston Sprinkle is having his Exiles conference right now today (Fri. & Sat,) here in Boise at Calvary Chapel.
We are praying against this Woke-Fest of compromise and confusion.
I just called Pastor Jack Hibbs church. They believe this sinful attraction must be repented of just like any other sin.
Thank you for sharing that!!!
Agreed 🙏
Thank you Jon and Pastor Mike GB
We will never compromise on gay celibate theology! The Bible is clear
We should all pray for Calvary Albuquerque. As a pastor with such high influence, Skip ought to have fear of God that motivates him to avoid getting this wrong, because he will receive a stricter judgment as a teacher (James 3:1). He knows the Bible better than almost anyone (and I personally have been very blessed by his teachings over the years). He'll be held responsible for this knowledge; he has far less excuse than many believers... so I pray that he has a change of heart, repents of his compromise, and makes the necessary changes to take a clear stance against gay-celibate theology. I also believe that having Nate Heitzig as executive pastor there is a serious conflict of interest, and I have far more concerns about Nate’s positions that I do about Skip’s. I believe that Nate is pushing Skip in the wrong direction and the conflict of interest is revealing a weakness in Skip’s foundation on Christ and His word which needs to be resolved.
Also in general, this is one of the most common paths for bad doctrine and practice to infiltrate the church. It's 1 person or 1 small group that is tolerated when they should not be, usually due to a close friendship creating blind spots.
@john316f0rall I agree that Skip hasn’t made claims like these in his teachings, which is why I hate this whole thing so much. I have listened to hundreds of hours of his sermons myself. In fact he teaches straight-up that homosexuality is sinful. Thus, when I first heard that this had happened I was very taken aback. However, this was a situation where the church invited Gregory Coles to speak, and only retracted the decision after serious pushback. The fact that they even talked about inviting the guy, let alone announced it and planned it, means that they compromised heavily. Nate said that Coles’s book was the “best, most biblical book on the subject” after they retracted the invitation, aka there wasn’t repentance on his part at least, and Skip failing to publicly rebuke his son means that he hasn’t repented either. What Nate said is verifiable by going back in the Calvary teaching archives. Either Nate has not read what this book says (much of which is borderline blasphemy against the character of God) or he is accepting it, thus seriously going down the wrong road. Skip is letting it happen because of a conflict of interest as well as his own weakness that this case is showing. As much as I hate to say it this case can be fully verified, so I’d be more careful before you accuse Mike of lying.
Our church is currently going through that curriculum from Preston Sprinkle--tit's called Christian Sexuality. Forunately the parents meet simultaneously with the youth so can know exactly what they're talking about. Last week the parents got to the Gay/SSA session--we're doing it before the teens do--and we had a lot of disagreements in the group. So much so that the leaders have agreed to meet again tonight to continue the discussion. What's encouraging is that there are so many parents that are involved and are concerned about what their kids are learning. I was surprised there was as much pushback as there was--sometimes I think I'm alone. Anyway, pray that we can have peace tonight and the discussion can be fruitful.
I am so sorry for you to hear that. Preston Sprinkle should be marked and avoided not promoted
Ummm…it is by now clear that no one but sodomites benefit from this topic being ‘discussed’ endlessly. Relegate it to an obscure taboo, and society begins to regain a healthy appearance. One might say that part of their sickness is manifested in a craving to talk about their ‘condition’ with anyone who will listen. *Do not* indulge them!
Can you provide an update?
My teenage left the youth group over this issue, she no longer trusted the leadership.
@@jeanarmstrong4182
So sorry to hear that such division is occurring because of all this.
It’s unfortunate that this is spreading so rapidly.
We must stay vigilant and praying and watchful.
Matthew 5:28
“but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
I can’t believe we are even having these conversations. Jesus was very clear about how important our thoughts are. If you allow those thoughts to stay in your mind you are choosing sin. If you dismiss those thoughts immediately based on your knowledge of God and His word, you are taking every thought captive.
II Corinthians 10:5
“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,”
Hi! I attend Calvary Chapel, interested in this topic. 😊
Galatians 5:9
English Standard Version
9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Thanks to Pastor Mike Solecki for bringing this situation into our attention.
The profound evil of this categorically falls into both the "practice these things" and "give approval."
Perhaps someone should make public list as to where every Calvery Chapel and their pastors stand on this issue.
Whoa...so overwhelming! We need to study scripture for ourselves. I am so thankful for this podcast... this is popping up everywhere! Thank you to both of you for bringing this into the light. int
It's funny how the people who say, "The heart is what really matters, so don't be so focused on outward acts of obedience," are the same people who say, "The heart isn't really what matters here. It's whether you act on the desires in your heart."
Most excellent guys !!!
The problem is Calvary Chapels are very culturally oriented and sensitive. Hard to see how that wouldn't draw them into compromising on these sinful worldviews the culture is caught up in. Praying God grants Calvary Chapel Pastors wisdom righteousness boldness and conviction towards the sin of homosexuality.
And that they may get more biblically rooted liturgies and hymns. Not singing America the Beautiful on July 4.
Acts 2 : 42-47 I can’t find liturgies?
I can’t find hymns in there either?
Exactly right. I used to go to the calvary thing-it's a mess.
Eh, more known for verse by verse teaching then "cultural sensitivity"
I'm sure depends on the church though
I’ve done the deep dive on this issue, since we attended CC Boise for about 6 months last year (we now attend another Calvary Chapel that is theologically sound). This is one of the best interviews I’ve seen on this topic.
The only reason to give so much nuance to this issue is because the culture has an idol that we are trying very hard to respect.
I would love a great discussion of this topic with Jon and this Pastor along with Becket Cook, Christopher Yuan, and Rosaria Butterfield.
And let’s invite Preston Sprinkle and make it a “panel discussion.”
becket cook had yuan and butterfield on his podcast. do a search on youtube and youll find.
So helpful and interesting, thank you! We have freedom in Christ, don't settle for anything else 🙏🏾🙏🏾♥️ ❤️
Freedom do do what?
@@j.p.5716 freedom from sin, of course.
Sean McDowell has been on this for at least 2 years. I remember being confused by a podcast he did and I totally pulled away. I went straight to God's word and I no longer listen to him. I am teaching my kids to dig into God's word for truth and direction. we don't follow humans and don't need humans to direct us. God's word is sufficient.
Sean has interviewed many guests, he does NOT endorse every guests position. He is still VERY Biblical on this issue.
I started pulling away from Sean when I heard him using the preferred pronouns of a trans person last year.
I've heard him twice at Calvary ABQ; years ago before progressive christianity was exposed. The first time he preached about homosexuality and how the church needs to stop being mean spirited. Then a few years ago he preached on homosexuality and how the church needs to stop being mean.spirited. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. He's compromised.
Me too! I went through the same process! Thank you for sharing your comment.
@@LifeandLifeMoreAbundantlyWhat is his definition of “mean-spirited”? We can love those who struggle with the sin without affirming it as their identity. The operative word here is “struggle.” We do not celebrate sin nor affirm sinful desires. We do need to help and support those who struggle in their sin, regardless what that sin is without compromise. This is a tough topic for the church in that for so long we were mean-spirited and made people who struggle with SSA feel unlovable and that they couldn’t be saved. God will draw his sheep out of that sin and the church needs to be ready to help support and love them in their struggle. I think the problem now is that churches are swinging the pendulum the other direction and compromising in their effort to love and accept those who don’t struggle in their sin. It’s a mess.
A number of books on SSA theology-- maybe all of them-- have one thing in common: they use "what if" reasoning without checking it against the Word of God itself. Sam Alberry does this a lot as well, both in his books and talks. It's a form of reasoning that arises out of saying something like, "the Bible does not specifically address this thing I'm bringing up; therefore it's OK to reason about it until I think I get it to work with the Bible." This is how we get an abhorrent statement saying, _what if maybe God's good design in Eden also included SSA because it may have also included eunuchs?_. Horrible reasoning that is inconsistent with the Bible. Eden does not include SSA or eunuchs in God's creation. Period. And there is no margin for arguing that.
Yep. It treats the Biblical account like a series of random events - "well, that's just how it happened in the Bible, but it could have gone differently" - rather than an intentional narrative designed to instruct us in what ought and ought not be.
Thank you for the lengthy conversation on this topic. It was good to have some longform, drawn out discussion, and Pastor Mike has some solid, biblically based reasons for making the decisions he did.
It's easy (especially in these places where the current culture intersects theology) to draw up battle lines and not give any ground because one is so certain of the moral superiority of his position. I often find myself on the outskirts in these discussions because I think scripture is more nuanced than either "side" cares to admit. I'm primarily speaking of the Side B (celibate gays) and the "same sex attraction is sin" opposing viewpoints here.
Pastor Mike's clarification on the power of the gospel for salvation (not just initial salvation, but ongoing, continual sanctification) is excellent! But Preston Sprinkle's differentiation between attraction, or as Jon called it "noticing beauty" is also spot-on. For thoughts do not simply enter our mind from within, but also from without. Therefore, as Pastor Mike says, we must "take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ" (2 Co. 10:5), because "when we are tempted, God will provide a way out so we can endure it" (1 Co. 10:13).
But wait! "God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" (Jas. 1:13-15). So there is a process to sin, such that an initial thought that passes through the mind is not in and of itself *a* sin, though it may be unrighteous. And if dwelt on, and waiting only for the opportunity to act on it, could "give birth to sin". If sin is a latter step in the process from the thought itself, how can the thought *be* sin?
Something for the Reformed crowd to think about.
Thanks again for the discussion, and keep having good conversations.
I would add, too, that the identifying with the former "dead" man/nature, is far more sinful and unrighteous than the thoughts or attraction themselves. The question for the Christian to ask is whether he is reckoning himself dead to sin--and therefore alive in Christ--or continually returning to that corpse and reanimating it? This is a question that goes for any believer, regardless of where he once was before saved by the grace of God.
Jesus said lust is adultery. The sinful thought is a sin.
@@HiThereHeyThere No he didn't. Further, your terms are ambiguous. "Lust" means a strong desire, a deep yearning. But in Matthew 5:28, presumably the text you're relying on, Jesus tells the people that "looking upon a woman to desire her" is committing adultery in the heart. The sinful _act_ is looking, while the motive is drawn from the lustful desire. But the lustful thought is not itself a sin, though it may be unrighteous (and could lead to sin).
How many of the Reformed are fideists (human reason is fundamentally flawed and opposed to faith)? Good luck trying to get them to care and 'make it make sense.'
Maybe it should be mentioned, that after Chuck Smith’s death Calvarys experienced a split. Some pastors remaining true to Calvary distinctive’s others ( including Costa Mesa from what I’ve read) opting for a more inclusive path. I apologize if this has been mentioned before
Is the split formal
@@conceptualclarity yes. but not in reality are they actually split. they still promote each other.
I am interested in knowing more about the split
They don’t promote each other at all. CCA has, very strongly and publicly, denounced the direction of CGN and Brian Broderson. They are split formally and in reality. CCA is officially cut from it. The same cannot be spoken for some individual church in Boise. They aren’t representative of CCA and their official stance, at all.
It’s been covered here in the video, the split, and why this pastor left the more conservative branch - Calvary Chapel The Association.
I prefer to get my Theology from anyone not named Lady Gaga 😳
10 years ago I actually left a non-denominational church to join a Calvary Chapel BECAUSE of this very issue! I heard the pastor at the church I was attending in 2014 say that there are people in his congregation that are living celibate lives as homosexuals. That didn't escape my notice and there was a check in my spirit about it. When I emailed the church for clarification, I was never given an answer, so I left and joined a Calvary Chapel because I believed they were more "doctrinally safe" and the one I attend is. I don't know about the other ones, but the one I attend is still solidly pre-trib, Pro Israel, and pro-preaching on eschatology
Brian Brodersen is seriously woke.
Francis Chan seriously went off the rails long ago. He endorses the Catholic Church’s teachings on communion. He claims it is the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ at each communion in masses.
Hello Gracie, I love your 🐈 photo! I see that you follow a few people that I like. Blessings and Maranatha 🌱✝️👑🕊️🌱📖😊
I have not listened to the full video yet but I was very encouraged recently after meeting a young man at a stall at a christian conference who was with a charity called "x-outloud". This charity embraced Christ's glorious transformative power to change the desires of those with SSA to heterosexual desires. It was so refreshing to hear about this charity considering how radical the message is compared to charities like Living Out. If we don't believe that Christ can purify our desires and transform us so that his desires become ours then what hope do any of us have in battling our sin?
Thank you for the videos you do on this topic because there are people out there who are being hurt by the church regarding this topic and need to hear this. Praise God for his wonderful transformative power!
Psalm 19:14 speaks about the meditation of the heart, which is our thought life and well as our words which represent our actions. So sinful thoughts are certainly not acceptable and pleasing to the Lord.
Accommodation leads to accommodation, which leads to accommodation...
"...what we need in light of the accommodation about us is a generation of radicals for truth and for Christ. We need a young generation and others who will be willing to stand in loving confrontation, but real confrontation, in contrast to the mentality of constant accommodation with the current forms of the world spirit as they surround us today, and in contrast to the way in which so much of evangelicalism has developed the automatic mentality of accommodation at each successive point."
~ Dr. Francis Schaeffer, The Great Evangelical Disaster
Excellent quote!
Loved reading books by Dr Schaeffer from the 1970’s and L’Abri.
The "admiring the beauty of my own gender as being from God" nonsense justification for Side B could just as easily be applied to children. Aren't children beautiful?
That's exactly where it's going.
Small correction that the CCA was NOT formed in reaction to Brian. (Calvary pastor here, am still early in the video.) It was implemented by Chuck and Brian was a member. Brian left the CCA and started CCGN, and included all CCA churches by default. Made them opt out.
Again, haven't finished this video but I appreciate you making me aware of this very much. I want to keep Calvary biblical.
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.”
1 John 2:16
If it’s not from the Father, it leads to death. Homosexual attraction is not from the father. To say God can’t take this away is refuting the sacrifice of the Son. It means you believe in a powerless god, a god of the world.
So what broterson's church and others like him are saying is that since the attraction is not a sin, just the action is a sin. Then they must allow them to partake in. Being a part of the worship team, teaching small children, teaching anyone, they should be able to be a elder associate pastor anything since there's no sin in the attraction. I wish someone would ask him about that
I was saved at a Calvary Chapel, was discipled at Calvary, was married at Calvary, and have great respect for the Calvary I spent 8 years in. Having said that, this does not surprise me at all. Doctrine matters. Taking stances on doctrine is discouraged unless it is pre-trib rapture or non-Calvinsim. If we are not grounded on the fundamental principles, one of which is orginal sin and the nature of man, then this is where we end up. So, the verdict is to Skip the connection.
If the homosexual act is a sin, why would God deliberatly create one to be attracted to sin???
That is a lie from the mouth of Satan. God did not creat us with the desire to sin. He gave us for will to choose but not to want. And sadly because of Adam and Eve we choose to desire sin.😭🙏🏼😔
I totally agree with what was said. I have a unique experience of coming to Christ in a Calvary Chapel and then was a housemate with Greg Cole (before he wrote the book).
How would Sprinkle know how hard or even how not sinful it is to be ok to be identify as a gay Christian ?
Hr doesn’t walk in their shoes. The people he continues to help are not transformed in Christ. Who comes undone about pro nouns? That’s what unbelievers do …no true foundation in Christ.
Galatians 2:20 NASB95
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
I attend a Calvary Chapel in TX & I can tell you our Pastor, elders & attendees do not believe this new Progressive way. I would say that’s a minority. I also regular watch Calvary Chapel Ontario & Pastor Paul would never agree with the progressive agenda either. I’m thankful for the Word of God being preached rightly in our home church. But I am grateful for this being brought into the light & called out as it should be!
Side B makes the error of believing that culpability requires the ability to do otherwise. Paul in Romans 2:14,15 shows that the gentiles are culpable because they know sin is wrong. He does not say they are culpable because they have the ability to not sin. "(for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them )" You are culpable for same-sex attraction because you know (especially through revelation) it is wrong. The good news is that through sanctification you can acquire the ability to do otherwise. "As such were some of you" (1 Cor 6:11)
Thanks so much for your ministry in general and for bringing this to light. It grieves me to see CC heading in this direction. Did someone take the Sermon on the Mount out of their Bibles? What did they think Jesus meant by "...everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her..." ?
Not ALL Calvary Chapels are!
Romans 1 teaches that if you are "gay" you have already been judged by God as Having given up on the truth. You are under judgement.
Matthew 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, change your theology and your anthropology and your biology and your psychology, but by no means pluck your eye out. Instead, hold on to it as long as you can and keep it with you, close to your heart, until you reach the pearly gates. You don't want to miss seeing heaven with both eyes do you? And the same goes with all your other body parts and feelings; cling to them. (The Gospel According to Satan).
If I think about winning the lottery all the time. Even if I think about how much money I would use for the ministry, it is WRONG. It feeds covetousness. I can't just say that I do not buy lottery tickets therefore there is no sin involved.
So much wrong with Gay Celibate Theology, but I think God is distilling his Church. It is getting pretty easy to see who is the body of Christ and who is not because the compromises are not on secondary issues. Also if God we believe that there are things about is that God cannot change, we've automatically denied the power of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
I'm a regular listener to CTM podcast, and really appreciate this info coming to light. I know for a fact that side B theology is not endorsed by the many CC pastors I know in the deep south region. Here's an example from a CC who did a series on LGBTQ+ and specifically called out side B as sinful.
czcams.com/play/PLZRsh8iPCWqxCTEc3F4beSMrMNQ2WYIss.html
I will be investigating this more.
Well CC begun with unrepentant Lonnie Frisbee, and now it is finishes at the same place..., kind of.
And beside this issue there is a lot of other doctrinal issues anyway.
Chuck's war on reformed doctrines for example.
And all the consequences of "god has a good plan for you" theology.
But the good thing is - The Chuck's call to study Bible verse by verse, book by book, produced much more reformed folks than any other modern causes combined =)))
There are biblically faithful folks that are not Calvanists. Everything is not "Calvinist vs non-Calvinist"
Well, but everything is Biblical vs none biblical. CC not the worst in a sense..., but.
@@davissalaki8703And no one is saying that is an ‘us vs. them’ mentality. Those that adhere to the Doctrines of Grace are just tired of being called heretics by those that oppose the Sovereignty of God. We certainly don’t feel that way about them
There are those that desire a deeper understanding of the faith than is provided in a small booklet. For many, Reformed Theology is a good answer
@@toolegittoquit_001you are right on point . I came to faith in Calvary Chapel and affirmed the doctrines of grace early in but in the closet so to speak ( no pun intended ) because of their adverseness to reformed theology . Since being confessional reformed member of my local church , I never hear the same towards arminians .
You say that non-calvanists oppose Gods sovereignty yet you don't believe they are heretics? Not sure if i believe that.
My experience has been Calvanists being very judgemental and at times angry towards those that don't believe as they do.
I believe there is some arrogance there assuming that those that Calvanist have "a deeper understanding of the faith".
Even with this small snippet you've kinda illustrated my experience with Calvanists. It's full of arrogance and unwillingness to consider that anyone that believes differently may also be an intelligent, ernest, and thoughtful Christian.
Isnt that still just another option to still be gaye?
Yep.
Psalm 19:14 says “May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. This clearly points to our thoughts as well as our actions.
Exactly. They have adopted the idea that this sin is an innate trait like skin tone or eye color, instead of a sin for which people need to repent.
Jon,
Thank you for delving into this topic.
Releasing this conversation right now is perfect timing due to the fact that Preston Sprinkle is having his Exiles conference this week at Calvary Chapel Boise.
Hopefully more people wake up and pay closer attention.
Looking forward to the “Stand Firm” conference coming to Boise next weekend.
Shocking and sad. I am not Calvary, but have always respected what Chuck Smith did as I was saved in 1975 through Jesus people ministry in FL. I heard no mention of North East leader Pastor Joe Focht. I respect his ministry and cannot believe he would put up for this being brought into the Calvary Association
If a dog is looking at food and wanting it, and another dog is looking at the same food and not wanting it, they are going to behave differently.
Attraction affects behavior. If it doesn't affect behavior, then it's not attraction. And a bad attraction means bad behavior.
Dogs cannot sin.
@stevemateuszow Dogs are not rational animals, neither are they created in God's image. Therefore, dogs cannot understand rational commands or the moral law; from which it reasonably follows that dogs cannot sin whatsoever. Humans, otoh, are fully accountable for their sinful thoughts, words, and deeds.
@CP-dk8oi Are you an animal enslaved by your biological chemistry? Or are you a rational human being and responsible for what you think, say, and do?
Here's a simple way to remember the 2016 split in Calvary. The Globalists (CGN) at Costa Mesa went liberal as Globalists always do. This is now a further problem among the conservative wing.
what position does Jack Hibbs take on this issue
That's what I would like to know.
Yes. And Mike Winger?
@@IftheShewfitswhy does it matter?
@@Dan-qh2fvif you have to ask. Homosexuality in the Church is not a good thing.
@@davidprice9792 I know that homosexuality is not a good thing. That wasn’t my question. What I meant by my question was why does it matter what Jack Hibbs and Mike Winger have to say about this. Why do their opinions matter?
Can you repent of something involuntary? Lust is voluntary, something to be repented of. But is attraction voluntary?
How do you define attraction? If it gets to the level of enticement, then that would be lust. But what about beneath the level of enticement. For the purpose of establishing a baseline, call that attraction. To notice the beauty of the opposite sex before being enticed by it. If a person doesn’t experience this, then they don’t experience temptation. The Bible says we do experience temptation.
If a man has attraction to women in general but never looks on a woman to lust after her, and does not fantasize or anything like that, does he sin?
If the answer is no, why isn’t this applied with same sex attraction? Frankly it sounds hypocritical.
I don’t know how people in the side B camp would define these things. Not speaking for them. But in general, it seems like people are talking past each other in this debate.
You had a good question, and I'd like to ask you the same thing: how are you defining attraction? What does that mean in the scenario you mention, where it is devoid of any lust or lure or enticement or fantasy? You said, "If a man has attraction to women in general but never looks on a woman to lust after her, and does not fantasize or anything like that..." What does his attraction entail, exactly?
It's a good question to talk about what sin is and whether attraction is always sin and what things we should repent of. I think our sin nature means we can and must repent of many involuntary things. Our nature is not bent toward God or godliness, but toward self and sin. This means we will have many inward temptations/desires (or maybe we could call them attractions) that we need to repent of: the attraction to get out of trouble by lying, the attraction to eat only sugary foods, the attraction to steal, the attraction to someone else's things (coveting)...basically every temptation to sin is always an attraction we must deny, and I begin to wonder: why *not* repent of that? Repenting is just rejecting that temptation and turning away from it to Jesus. What's the hesitation there? I don't know where God draws the line between a thought/desire that ran through our minds and a thought/desire becoming sinful -- but thoughts and desires definitely can be sinful, or lust/hate/coveting/etc would not be sinful -- and anything outside of God's character is sin. So as soon as I identify anything in me outside of His character, I want to turn from that, reject it, and turn to Jesus and submit to Him and His ways. Do I need to be sure that I actually crossed the line into sin from temptation? As much as I like to understand all the ins and outs and know where all the lines are, I don't think I really *need* to know that. I already know I'm messed up, I already know that desire was outside God's character, and I know I want to submit myself fully to Him.
Moving on to personal attractions, I think there are clearly some forms of personal attraction that are not sinful. We are attracted to certain people for friendship relationships because of their personalities, their humor, their caring nature, etc -- hopefully because of the ways they reflect Christ. But I would say that any time the physical is part of that attraction, there's a good chance sin is involved, and I think that's also true any time attraction has any sexual nature at all (outside of marriage). God does not intend our adornment or beauty to be physical or outward (1 Pet 3:3-4); I think it follows that our attraction to others should also not be physical or outward (again, outside of marriage). Choosing friends based on appearance seems clearly wrong. Choosing a potential spouse based on appearance also seems clearly wrong, however right our culture claims it to be. So in that way, this standard is applied to both same sex and heterosexual attraction.
Biblically speaking, we have no teaching that we should look for a spouse based on anything to do with appearance. Our attractiveness is supposed to be inward, as we see in 1 Pet 3 -- both for wives and for husbands. Our attraction to others should be based on godly character, not on outward appearance. And that, coupled with God's design for marriage between one man and one woman, is enough to show that much of the attraction we experience (both same-sex and heterosexual) is sinful. And you're right, that should be called out on both sides of the matter.
@@Carole_ I don’t know if it was clear in my previous response. If a person walks in the spirit, will they feel any tug of the flesh? I think answering this question is important. The flesh may have innate and involuntary desires. We can call them sinful. Attraction may be one of these, or at least a certain type of attraction. If a person walks in the spirit, they are in the Godward direction, so no need to repent.
1. Can they feel this tug while in the Godward direction?
2. Are they immediately in the sin direction the moment they feel this tug?
If you answer yes to question one, then I think you would agree that the flesh can have a sinful influence that a person doesn’t need to follow. If they don’t follow, they don’t need to repent, even if they have felt the tug.
If you answer yes to question 2, either a) sin is inevitable and no one can overcome even with the help of God. Or b) you teach the eradication of the flesh.
That being said, I agree that if we’re not in the Godward direction, we need to repent of many of the involuntary things we do and feel.
This is so sad. Skip is quite visible in CC.
Jon, when you are able to nail down Sean McDowell on what he TRULY believes on this, let me know. You need to watch his face when he interviewed Rosaria Butterfield in the last few months and even what he says to her. It is sort of the same surprised looks he gave in his interview with Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett on “The Deconstruction of Christianity.” As far as I know Sean is teaching at Biola and he and Preston seem chummy when he interviews Preston on his show. But Sean is one of those guys that seems to be “chameleonish.” I sure hope I am wrong. I love what The Center for Biblical Unity gals, Monique and Krista, say about their Alma mater- Biola. They call it out!
I was uncomfortable with the chumminess that I saw occurring with Sean and Preston in that same interview.
I like Gary Hamrick pastor at cornerstone chapel in Virginia i wonder where he stands on this issue. He always speaks clearly and boldly. I wonder if calvary chapels use "church discipline"?
As a Calvary chapel pastor we do exercise church discipline.
As an ex CC attendee and based from the other response, it depends on the Calvary chapel church. At the one I used to attend they didn’t. Don’t really know how they can if church membership isn’t a thing at CCs
@Dan-qh2fv I didn't realize no church membership at all calvary chapels. Wondered because we've been going to a local cc and there's no church membership but we are new to this group
@CP-dk8oi yes, I understand that and makes sense. Where things aren’t so clear to me is what distinguishes a “member” from a visitor or an on and off again attendee?
I am pretty sure that Pastor Gary falls on the biblical & conservative side of this issue.
The temptation sin because we are sinners by nature does not make sense according to what is temptation…
Jesus said sin comes out but temptation isn’t sin
Temptation has two meanings. One is to be tested by something of someone that would harm you and see you fall, like Satan testing Christ. The second is to be drawn in feelings or desires towards something evil or something God has not given you permission for. The second one is much more common. So be careful when you say "being tempted isn't wrong". The fact is, most of the time when people are tempted, it's temptation in the second definition of the word. Long before we commit an evil act we are usually first drawn away by an evil desire. Christ who is our perfect example never even had an evil desire. Everything evil was totally undesirable to him. So rather than excusing our evil desires by saying, "I thought it, but at least I didn't do it," we should pray that God will take away our evil desires, making us more like Christ.
James 1:14-15
@@Wood424 Amen. Great verse.
@@ifyouloveChristyouwillobeyhim
Thanks
Temptation with two meanings ? Can you give me the greek words with definition?
Eve was tempted by satan she was deceived … so it that point ( before she went ahead and eat) was she guilty or innocent? She had a choice, she thought and felt the desire to know good and evil…
Jesus as Hight priest, understand us in every why? Satan tempted him, he felt the power of the temptation but without sin. But still the thought and words came out of his heart. In the end all temptation is dealing with the heart and yes, we should pray Lord protect me from this feeling, thought, renewing of mind, think everything is good, pure, etc …
Some temptations will be there for life and we have to constantly ask the Lord to help us, our Hight Priest is interceden for us day and night. Some the last few month, some are conquer in short time, seconds…
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
James 1:14-15 | NKJV
James is clear about the processed, drawn away, enticed, By his own desires, whether some one tempted me, let’s go and steal food because we are hungry, or my thoughts, I want to steal that meal because I haven’t eat for three days, same …
If the desire is conceived… I keep entertaining my thought with the intention of doing it, I am waking toward that meal , I am opening the web for porn… so sin give birth.
It is a fine line, if you think of your live and struggles you know what I am talking about.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. 20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.”
Matthew 15:19-20 | NKJV
In this context Jesus isn’t talking about temptation…but where sn gives birth… the pharisees are accusing him for exterior practices.. which remind me of your concept of two temptations… they probably though there were two places where sin came from??☺️
Not being a theologian and though Jesus was speaking (Matthew 5:27-30 NASB) about a man who looks at a woman with lust for her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart, doesn't that also apply to any other sin that is attributed to the heart?
Though I listened to this with sincere intent it became almost tedious because the impression was not to offend anyone and yet those who profess to be followers of Jesus Christ appear to be teaching everything anti-thetically opposite to not only what was instructed in the Old Testament but as well to what Jesus taught in relationship regarding men and women.
I will try and keep this as clean as possible and not be as vulgar, but no matter what anyone says what a sewer is and they attempt to make it something it is not, it is still a sewer and this situation within those churches who are subverting the gospel and trying to make a sin into something that is false, I would believe it's better that a millstone be tied around their neck and thrown into the ocean than to cause harm to the body of Christ.
Well said.
I had to leave my church of some 10 years, which I had just recently joined as a member, over the Social Justice Gospel. It hurt, badly, and I am still hurting. I was considering trying out the local Calvary church, but now I'm not so sure. Are there any good, solid churches anymore?
Ask the elders or pastors for a “mission statement” or a “statement of faith” that lays out what they believe.
Schedule an appointment with a pastor and discuss the finer points of what they believe and why.
We had to do this before selecting a new church and it proved very helpful.
If this were four hours long in lieu of almost two hours, might watch it lol
First time to hear about Gay Celibate Theology.
It's not new. It has been around since Tim Keller made it popular over 10 years ago.
@@ThomasCranmer1959
Really? I heard other from Timothy Keller
@@Samy-sx6kn Tim Keller was like his buddy Russell Moore involved in trying to water down Christians' firmness against pe rvers ion.
Dr James White has debated this ideology vs Gregory Coles.
Great debate, very informative.
@@Samy-sx6kn Tim Keller promoted ecumenicalism. I watched a video where one of the women in his church told him she was going to become a Catholic and he congratulated her! I was saved out of the Catholic Church and was extremely upset with him!!! He promoted social justice with his Gospel Coalition.
CGN is losing steam and will deflate more when Brian steps aside and allows his son Char take over 100%. Char is only CC because of his dad. I wouldn't be surprised if he changes the name of the church when his dad dies. I doubt he would do it while he's alive, but then again he might. Char will put the end of CCCM. And CGN will disappear but it has done enough damage that there will be faithful ones who will continue their woke ways and screw up CC name more than what BB has done.
I’m a Calvary Chapel Association follower. I came to Jesus Christ through a friend who attended Chuck Smith’s Costa Mesa church. I have never liked what Brian Broderson has done to the church that Chuck Smith started. My pastor was Mike MacIntosh in San Diego.
I’m totally shocked to hear that some CC churches are supporting gays. I had never heard of this!😱
I’ve heard of Preston Sprinkle and his horrible views, but I didn’t know he is in a CC church. Is it a CCGN one?
Both. CC Boise
It's Biola, I've thought about their Apologetics courses, but oh boy.
Yes.
Absolutely it is a huge “Compromise.”
Any time the Shepard of the flock of God allows wolves like Sprinkle into their church, they have compromised and endangered the sheep.
A complete neglect of duty as an elder and overseer of the church.
It is time for these men to step down and receive corrective guidance from mature elders.
Repentance needs to begin in the church with its pastors and elders first.
1:20:53 "Pastor Mega" LOL. Spot on as is the rest of this podcast. [Pastor Mega is in charge of church discipline; they call him the bouncer.]
I hadn’t been able to finish listening to this podcast till today and just thought I would go to see if I could find somewhere online where it states the church that Preston sprinkle goes to. I went to his website. It didn’t state what church she goes to, but it did state that all him and his wife’s favorite bands are secular. It Names them. Lol
Way to go Christians
He goes to Calvary Boise.
Yes he does
Sounds like a distinction needs to be made between attraction, thoughts, desires, temptation, passions, lust, and behavior. Also, which these are sins and how they are sins. It's odd that any Christian would want to identify with sin instead of identifying with Christ, that any Christian wouldn't want to be free from a sinful identity.
So does that mean I cannot drink a cup of beer with my fried fish during the 6 weeks of lent? Does that consist of compromise with drunkenness?
I am wondering if you could reach out to pastor Mike MacIntosh, one of the original, oldies, who were brought to the Lord by Chuck Smith? I know he would never support this view of Brian Broderson!!! He was one of the ones who broke away with Brian because of his disrespect for Pastor Chuck’s teachings. I would love to see you do an interview with him on this subject.
Interesting conversation. I recall seeing some videos on CZcams maybe a year ago, after the Jesus Revolution movie.
I was familiar with Chuck Smith and his church, but knew very little about Calvary Chapel back in the day.
So, I was surprised to learn that several Calvary Chapel pastors are on the same-sex attraction bandwagon.
It's been interesting to watch the Pride agenda work it's way through society and the Church these last 40 years.
They've taken their approach straight from the Socialist playbook, winning small concessions, then larger ones, until they are able to kick the door down and ransack everything once held sacred and holy.
Sorry, I don't trust Sprinkle, and others in his camp, any farther than I could throw him.
How firmly are Calvary Chapels anchored in the doctrine of Creation, Gen 1:1-2:3? Do they hold to six-day Creation? Exo 20:11
"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; ..." Exo 20:11. The battle for the authority of Scripture begins there. If these truths are questionable, then everything in Scripture is up for grabs.
I would recommend inviting Skip to your show. As scripture teaches, dont accept an accusation without two witnesses. And if you see your brother overtaken in a sin, go to them privately.
Calvary Chapel is NOT a denomination!!??? I attend one
That is not whats being said. NOBODY in CC says the orientation is fine. False accusation.
What is being said is that you are not practicing sin unless you act on it. You can struggle with every sinful desire. That's the difference....
Matthew 5:27-28
Used to be in the Calvary Chapel world. Very messed up. Highly emotional and they tell you to be Bereans but you can’t challenge their strange eschatology and worship of a pagan middle eastern nation state. Once you really dig into the Bible- you end up leaving after about 2 years or so. The good thing is they really get you to read the Bible. Then that’s ultimately their downfall. It’s a good starter kit but then run out
Lol that’s an accurate description of CC
When you generalize and paint with a broad brush, you tend to do sloppy work. Just a thought. GB
@@hope186 Israel is the Church. You don’t know how to read the Bible in context. You should just renounce Christianity and become “God’s Chosen”. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound
@@Contramundum429 I deleted my comment because I figured someone would give me a nasty response and I was correct. So do you not believe what Jesus said about He would not come back until the Jews repent and call out to Him as the Messiah? You would also believe that God has taken back the Abrahamic covenant that He made, on His Own Word? He put Abraham to sleep so that He made the covenant unconditional!! Why would God keep His covenant with the Gentile believers ?
@@Contramundum429 your position is promoting all the antisemitism that we see all over the world, including America.
For being 'Non-Denonminational' they have quite the orginizational structure.
I attend a CC church and the slide is becoming visible.
And they've bought wholly into Dispensationalism to the point where several CCs have delved into a focus upon end-times 'prophecy' and interpretation of the 'signs' pointing to the so-called rapture
Syncretism is a creeping cancer uppn thr church
Chuck was an ordained 4 Square minister. Many are dispensational. I understand there are 4 different views on the end times. Replacement Theology is taught in man denominations. Not all..
Yes CC is strongly dispensationalist as Chuck Smith was.
Dispensationalism was there from the beginning. You can disagree but facts are that dispensationalists have remained MORE against liberalism than Reformed or Lutheran overall. Now please, I am talking very generalized, so that a James White is Reformed and totally solid.
I have no problem being a dispensationalist and fully support the pastors reporting on Bible prophecy. It is in the book of Revelation, which is “ The Revelation of Jesus Christ! It also states it is the Spirit of Prophecy. We were told to be Watchmen on the Wall. All you need to do is look around you and see for yourself that things are growing worse and worse. Even people who don’t believe in Jesus Christ or the Bible can see that.
Luke 13:1-5 (KJV 1900): There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Ugh! I listen to Jack Hibbs regularly because his church has fought tirelessly for his community and he preaches thru the Bible. I hate that they can allow this deception.
Jack Hibbs and CCA do not embrace homosexuality or the nonsense that this video claims. I’m part of a Calvary church plant and was just at a CCA pastors conference in February. They wholeheartedly reject social justice nonsense and these things. Jack Hibbs is rock solid. I’d encourage you to continue to listen to his teaching. Some of the most solid Bible teaching you’ll hear today.
@@flemingstephen16 thank you! His church has been a blessing! And good shepherds are getting harder to find!
@@katherinecornette5315
Jack Hibbs is solid.
I agree and believe the same of Calvary Philly, lead pastor, Joe Focht. I do not go to Calvary Philly, but have listened to the app many of those messages and he is always straight on with the word of God.
Need to find out where Jack Hibbs stands
Shouldn’t gay people be celibate if they come to faith in Christ?
What the Bible says, at most basic form about fornication and lust: 1. fornicators (which elaborates in other places that this is not only straight people but man/man, woman exchanging natural desires…) will not inherit heaven. 2. If a man looks at a woman and LUSTS for her, he already commits adultery with her in his heart. Take what you will from this. But, sounds to me like a lot of talk and legalism. You should not be lusting at ALL (for opp or same sex attraction) unless its with your spouse, period. This is why we were given spouses. And, we should be allowing ANYONE into churches so we can TEACH on behalf of our LORD. TRUTH=LOVE. We are told to witness. We are told to follow HIM, no matter the cost.
This sucks. Not your vide, was very good. What sucks is calvary boise is (maybe past tense soon) the church i go to. My beloved brother in christ used to run onenof the bible study groups but recently left this church over this upcoming conference. He still runs a non church aligned bible study. I miss our old pastor at ccb.
Hello,
I read your comment and had to chime in.
We went to CC Boise for three years and we were very involved in Community Groups.
We were very upset about the Exiles conferences being held at our church. We expressed our concerns to Pastor Tucker.
It was partly because of our commitment to our community group that we ended up staying at the church longer than we should have.
We eventually left the church about one year ago as we just couldn’t continue on due to their compromise and lack of discernment.
Sadly, many others have had to leave also. I know this because many of those same people are now at our new church.
BIOLA ! gee
Yuan is still SSA. His parents/mom travels with him when he goes on the road because they (he and his parents) are concerned that Yuan will backslide.
I hardly know or am familiar with him but how do you know?
It really breaks my heart to see so many people that dedicate their lives to help others still lack so much empathy.
I know if you asked any one of them outside the context of the Bible in an every day style discussion how they came to find women attractive. They would naturally just say that these are the feelings that they had that one day when they went through puberty, they suddenly found they were viewing women through a new lens. However, they fail to understand that the same is true for homosexuals. It’s not like they decided to be straight just because that’s what the Bible said. As if they were equally bisexual and cast aside, those sinful feelings because god said it was wrong. They simply were born that way, and it’s so happens that the narrative of the world that they were born into approves of that. Simply as that.
So to condemn people, for even experiencing those feelings, when they try so earnestly to conform to what they say is the right way of life, while staying true to the feelings they experience is crazy to me
"It really breaks my heart to see so many people that dedicate their lives to help others still lack so much empathy."
That's nice. What does it have to do with homosexuality being a sin?
Isn't the owner of this channel a Reformed Calvinist? Believing people are responsible for things they can't control is like second nature to these people.
Attraction may not be a sin but gluttony certainly is. Listening to the roundtable clips is unbearable. Thanks for the excellent podcast!
Out of the wicked heart wicked sins flow.
@CP-dk8oi Yep. Thinking is also sinful.