Top Five Modern RPG Masterclass
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- čas přidán 11. 01. 2024
- I talk about the five best computer role playing games of the 21st century from which to learn about RPG development...and exactly what each one teaches you. Plus, I add in three runners up, including why they didn't make the cut.
This video is a companion piece to the one about my top 5 video games: • My Top Five Video Games - Hry
Hi Tim! I worked on Skyrim - I was a creature designer - and it's a pleasure and an honor to have our game be mentioned in this list! Thanks so much! I love your channel - please, never stop doing what you're doing.
Also, for anyone interested, I made an hour-long documentary about Skyrim's development, in which I interviewed 8 other developers - all in different departments - and we did our best to lay out exactly how Skyrim (and any big game like that) is made. The documentary is called "You're Finally Awake," and you can find it on my channel.
Oh, and I've got a Fallout 3 and 4 retrospective coming out in just a few weeks!
Hi Jonah! I have seen your documentary, and it's wonderful. I cannot wait for your Fallout 3 and 4 videos!
Did I meet you at the Fallout 3 or 4 ship parties?
*takes a moment to fangirl*
Thank you for watching that video! I poured a lot of work into that one. And the Fallout 3 and 4 video will focus mostly on Creature Design, but I hope you enjoy how much I tried to take the lore and incorporate it smoothly into the designs.
And I think we did meet, once, but it would have been during the F3 ship party (I didn't stick around to the end of F4, I left halfway through), and I would have been just a little 25 year old, wet-behind-the-ears fella. So I don't think I fully understood who you were, and I was a little peon who probably didn't have much to say. But I'm 41 now, and I can say plenty, all by myself!! Would love to chat more, anytime :) @@CainOnGames
@@JonahLobeDraws why did you leave? It's always cool to learn more behind the scenes stuff about my favourite games - be it good or bad lol
@@HerohammerStudios Thanks Hero - I see you're already watching stuff on my channel, but in short I wanted to do something different, and try writing a book and doing illustrations and that sort of thing. Also my GF had moved to NYC and I wanted to be with her (we're now married with kids, so it was the right move haha)
Yo thanks for helping make one of greatest games of all time. I played Skyrim when I was 11 and now at 25 I still go back to play from time to time so thank you.
1:50 - World of Warcraft
3:28 - Elden Ring
5:48 - Skyrim
7:10 - Fallout: New Vegas
9:40 - Baldur's Gate III
Not necessarily Tim's favorite RPGs, but ones that offer a lot to learn.
What? The Witcher 3? Disco Elysium? Dragon Age Origins?
@@turell0 yup. Disco Elysium should be top 1. This game is definition of a true role playing
@@turell0 witcher 3 is extremely overrated. It's executed well but creatively bereft and doesn't offer anything unique to rpg game development. Tim Cain literally said "these are the top 5 games rpg devs CAN LEARN FROM" not "these are the top 5 rpgs of all time". Origns is great but a lot of what origins brought to RPGs was pionereed by bg2 since it was largely the same dev team on both and Elysium is a wonderful game but as far as game development goes it's essentially a simplified adventure game with some rpg elements. It's written very well and has a lot to offer writers, but not developers.
@@libenhagos9335witcher series is a series of open/semi open world slashers. Those games are not RPGs. They have some rpg elements but that doesn't make them rpg. Same with cyberpunk 2077 being immersive simulation
@@thatdixionThis... They are basically what Fallout 4 tried to do but with actual good writing.
Hi Tim, I worked on BG3 since pre-production, and this was a pleasant surprise. I am glad you enjoyed it. I am also glad it proved turn-based can work for an RPG because I remember the toxicity we had to deal with when we didn't go with RTWP. Anyway, I loved Fallout and Outer Worlds, and I am enjoying the insights you bring.
You should be proud dude - I never play single player games and j have close to 200 hours in BG3 so far. Every little element of ti is so well thought out.
The sound in games is SO important!
Not sure if you did this specific one, but when you cast 'Long Strider' I love the sound every time.
Nice work.
I like fallout as turn based and new vegas showed it can still be a good rpg as an FPS. I would like a future TB fallout since that's what the original got me used to. With this in mind, maybe you can understand why some fans of the bg series were dissappointed. However back then playing games as a hobby wasn't as widespread as now, so I am pretty sure 90% of the current audience had it's first dip with BG3 and doesn't care about what came before, although it was nice to see a few new players try the series in anticipation of the new game
@@konserwowy1092 I will say I've made it to act 3 in the game and so far my character has not had sex once.
As someone who likes both RTWP (due to playing a lot of RTS games) but also enjoying turn based (due to turn based strategy games), I can say I would've loved the game no matter which choice you guys had made during development, but then again I suppose I am a kind of niche customer lol. One thing I liked about PoE 2 was that you could switch between the two modes but I imagine that would've been quite the task for you guys to tackle so far into development.
Vampire Bloodlines was and is just so good. Thank you for being part of that.
I wish it was steakdeck playable
@@Lone_Wanderer138
Steakdeck sounds very tasty. Only needs buttons and a screen!
Kingdom Come Deliverence singlehandedly made me fall in love with RPG's & gaming once again. Beautiful game.
i really wanted to like that game because of the setting but i just couldn't get past the combat. i need to try it again one day
KCD is the masterclass in immersion, but it's in tension with what Tim wants to teach with the WoW, "easier is more fun" and "fun trumps realism" example, class and pillar.
KCD and WoW offer experiences that can't coexist.
kcd is a brilliant game, but imo is weak in writing and main storyline/overarching plot (which arguably is either fake or nonexistent or both). every singular quest along the way is great, well paced and presented, but where's war torn country, cuman pillaging parties and politics or the region and the state? dutch's spiel in the tavern has more weight than the whole game past that point. ok, if you want to treat margrave guy kind of like sovereign and the reapers in me, than make his minions competent and menacing like saren, you know.
@@EasyGameEh I disagree with you about KDC's writing, I thought it was brilliant. It also happened to be written by the same man who did the story for the Original Mafia game back in the day. I agree that Saren from Mass Effect was more compelling and menacing.
Tediousness the game
New Vegas does a lot of things great, one that I think is a lot stronger than the one you mentioned was how well the quests were made, and how good it is at pointing fingers at where to go. Lots of quests end up sending you in the direction of major and small locations, with lots of places to explore and people to talk to. The story telling is PHENOMENAL
Funny story. I tried NV, and had a quest where they wanted me to get used to a BB gun. Took me outside to the range and told me to pick the cans off the fence. So I, someone who isn't good at shooters, pulls up the gun, looks downrange, looks through the scope, and can't see a can anywhere. "Maybe that's a can?" Nope. A few minutes later, I give up, talk to the NPC, and walk away.
And then I notice a fence with cans on them. It was behind me. In my defense, where I was shooting from would have been shooting INTO town. The spot they led me to had a fence that seemed like I could prop the gun on it, for better stability, which is how I imagine gun ranges to be set up.
New Vegas was amazing!
I don't like the desert.
Skyrim is not my favorite RPG, but no other RPG has captured a sense of scale and captured the idea of being an “Epic Hero” like it has. Also Fallout: New Vegas is my GOTY every year.
Skyrim’s score and art direction are perfect
I felt much more like an "Epic Hero" in Morrowind, what kind of Epic Hero gets scolded like a child by some nameless guard for using legendary magic only the greatest and most fabled of men possess?
And yet doesnt somehow
Most quests dont make sense if you dont start by them
Enemy scalling all over the place
The bandit union
You have like 3 choices in the game none in the most important quests
I cant deny the atmosphere and sound are top notch
But i would easily replace Skyrim with Disco Elysium
Skyrim is mid
@@Pat315 it is but I’m still right I was 11 when I first played it and the music and snowy forest vibe was very beautiful to me. A perfect TES game would have as good art / music direction as skyrim did but with all the RPG shit from Morrowind. Unless you don’t like that one either
I had this video suggested to me not knowing who you were. I looked up what games you worked on & realized not only are you a legendary programmer & designer, I’m literally playing Pillars of Eternity while watching this.
I’ve played 4 of your games all of them excellent. Appreciate your work 🙏🏻
Gothic 2 was overlooked in the states because its a german game, made by a small studio, but man was it popular in Europe. I absolutely loved it, still to this day my favorite RPG ever made. Everything in that game was done right. It's a game that's over 20 years old, that had NPCs that had their routines, monsters and plants that belonged to their own ecosystems, unique and creative quests and soundtrack that puts modern AAAs to shame. Hopefully the new gothic that's being remade has even half of the charm original games did. Tim, did you by any chance get to play any of the Gothic games?
I played gothic 1 and 2 right after Morrowind. Morrowind was the first huge open world game I played and was very impressed by it. But after playing gothic I concluded it's a much better open world game, where everything's hand placed and there's no level scaling. Even fallout 1 and 2 do it better than Bethesda because of this. Still I have to give props to Bethesda for creating games that really reel you in. My problem is that you scratch the surface and depth of the game too soon and it gets boring.
The Nocturnal Rambler has a channel and blog dedicated to pyranha bytes games and reviewing old classics, idk if he's from the states though.
3D NPC's that did their routines some years before Oblivion came out and much better in how they felt like living people. And I say 3D since Ultima had beaten Gothic with living NPCs though far as I know, Ultima 7 was a sprite game, don't know about the sequels having NPC with their own routines at various in-game times. Not to mention the conversations being vague enough that they don't sound derpy like that of Oblivion's. Also this is more of an opinion but I legit like how orcs in Gothic 1 & 2 weren't human looking or as human looking compared to what contemporary games like Warcraft or Elder Scrolls had. Just a sort of look that really made them look a bit more original like in that one loading screen art used in Night of the Raven of the Nameless Hero going toe to toe with an orc warrior that looked like a pissed off mutant gorilla.
I think everybody can agree that Gothic I was the best game of the triology and it should be played by anyone who wants to know more about how to bring atmosphere into a game.
I think a lot of that team were the ones who did the complete conversion mod of Skyrim called Enderal. Very moody and free on steam with Skyrim or Skyrim SE. Check it out.
You can't talk about RPGs to Eastern Europeans without daddy Gothic.
I think this video is very much why people have asked you to do game reviews, as mentioned in your previous video, you have game designers perspective on things. You see how and probably more importantly why those games work? I agree on your assessment of both Skyrim and Fallout: New Vegas. Skyrim's and other Bethesda games map design is kinda brilliant in the fact that the exploration loop is almost addictive, every time you go to a place of interest, clear it, you see two or three interesting looking places to go to. Its shame writing in Behesda games isn't on par with bespoke map design. FO:NV is pure master class in branching story telling.
It doesn't make any sense for him to do reviews because he works in the industry. It's likely he knows people who worked on a lot of the games he would be reviewing, and even if most of his review is positive, pointing out negatives runs the risk of hurting friendships and business prospects. The only upside would be that it satisfies the curiosity of internet strangers, which isn't much of a positive for him.
@@joebob2699 the mere fact he knows people and likely has a lot of insight into how those games went makes his perspective inherently skewed, yeah. That's good for actually teaching or telling stories, not so much reviews.
@@joebob2699 Yeah, there is absolutely poisoning the wells aspect for anyone still working in the industry, even for semi-retired consultants. Honestly I think Tim should stay away from current games as measure of personal employment safety. I can't emphasis that more. But the big thing is that Tim Cain is game developer and has insight to the development process. Even if isn't in any way or form involved in development of any particular game, he has different kind of approach to that game than the best possible game reviewer. Reviews that are not actually reviews as @DanielFerreira-ez8qd said.
I think the new camera setup looks good.
I'd also recommend The Life and Suffering of Sir Brante. It's text based, but shows how a standard story structure can be adjusted for separate stories based on the character's story in a simple and workable manner, while also offering meaningful choices on an absolutely immense level. The 'secret' endings that completely change how the game finishes are fantastic, and are actually feel far more rewarding despite technically cutting out massive amounts of content from the game.
Narrative, if done well, can justify shortening the game if it feels legitimate - sometimes, the player can be encouraged to *want* to cut a story short. Just imagine: "Can I prevent this disaster if I do well enough?" - it's the kind of thing every immersed player loves to imagine, but most games shy away from.
Dont really care about the camera as i pretty much just listen so it could be no picture for all i care. Having said that if i were to answer if this setup is better then no. To far away.
Sir Brante is great!
Thanks for the recommendation, the game looks really interesting.
RetroMUD is text based game. It has many viable character builds. A complex array of options in combat. Most players these days attempt to play it solo. Its fundamentally structured for groups, and some of the bosses are epic encounters.
+1 for Life of Sir Brante
I'm glad New Vegas made the list! It's become super useful to me as a tool for learning another language (French), since the dialogue is so well-written, the things people discuss in that game are somewhat relatable, and there's a lot of conversations to memorize and practice.
KCD is also a game that does a special thing in it's RPG mechanics, which is whatever you learn as a character, you learn that as a player manually.
For me it's the most immersive game of all time
@@mike_c_47 yeah, especially how immersive the alchemy is and how manual it is, and learning how to read, and tons of other things
I agree. I only played it this winter, but it is a contender for the best rpg title.
KCD takes a lot of risks in design, or at least tries a lot of things that are either new or not commonly done. And some of it pays off! And some of it falls flat. But the most amazing part is how true-to-life the "levels" are. "Levels" in quotes because in many cases, the castles etc are built to model real places!
Agreed. With everything here. Call me crazy, but I'd be more excited for a sequel to KCD, or just another game, not necessarily a direct sequel story wise, to clarify. Moreso than I'm excited for Dragon's Dogma 2.
Now, to clarify, I by no means am shitting on Dragon's Dogma or saying it isn't great. I'm merely saying, of all the RPGs out there, and many people seem to hold Dragon's Dogma as one of their all-time favorites and a lot of hype around the sequel.. And I get it. But I feel even MORE passionately about the idea of another Kingdom Come game. Ahh, if only..
Vampire Bloodlines as a runner up makes me happy! I think it really presaged New Vegas as this translation of the Fallout/Arcanum sensibility in full 3D, real time, first person
“Fun trumps realism” is a very strong statement. And I whole heartedly agree. I think it’s one of the main reasons starfield didn’t click with so many people like Skyrim and fo4 did previously.
yeah, no, starfield didn't click for a lot of other reasons, and realism dislike is not one of them.
skyrim fans mod their game for brutal realism to this day but avoid starfield like a plague.
hell, even modders abandoned starfield.
Hi Everyone Its me Tim
A pause between "me" and "tim" lol
Hi Tim.
Hi Tim, it’s us … everyone
Hello, Tim! :)
I say it every time he starts the video 🥰 It's very comforting for some reason
Hey Tim! I'd love to hear your thoughts on Disco Elysium, if you've played it, what you thought about it. I was half expecting it to be on this list, the way they implemented character skills offered a huge amount of meaningful decision-making that touches every part of the game.
I'd love to watch Tim's live commentary playthrough of Disco Elysium honestly
Oh yeah, I also thought it was strange it wasn't in the list.
> Disco Elysium
I loved the dialog, but as a piece of software engineering it's terrible. Horrible performance for what's being rendered.
I am not sure of how much of an interest it would be to Tim. I though Josh Sawyer highlighted the brilliance of DE’s reputation system, but mechanically it is a basic game, with some glaring design issues. Main boon of disco Elysium is its writing, and I don’t think that’s really Tim’s area of expertise. Mechanically skills aren’t interesting - it’s “just” that they also act as this game’s “companions”, interrupting and adding to your conversations.
@@rabbitcreative what? lol
Hi Tim! Are you familiar with the Gothic series? In my opinion, the first two games in the series are a masterclass in immersion and also in how to make a small but "dense" open world that is incredibly fun to explore. Love your videos!
I think Gothic is extremely good at making the world feel like it has a grander scope than what is presented. The way Gothic world feels lived-in with story bits like the king having to send supplies for the prisoners to get his ore. Also, the atmosphere itself is masterclass. There isn't a single game that ever gave the same feeling I had when I entered the Mine Valley in G2 right after playing through G1. Despite feeling familiar, it was so hostile that it cycled back into feeling alien again. It's borderline post-apocalyptic, and I think G2 Mine Valley is proof that it could work and simply no one had done it before.
@@ChadVulpes I don't disagree with anything said here or anything like that, but to pivot slightly, a specific feature of Gothic/Piranha Bytes games I'm ESPECIALLY fond of, and god do I wish this would become the standard in all games, is if you kill a pack of wolves or whatever, and there's a quest nearby asking you to clear said pack, if you've already done it but were unaware of the quest, when meeting the questgiver you're given the option to complete said quest immediately. It's also a nice bit of flavoring that the way it handles it is like "Oh, those? I didn't even know. I already took care of your problem."
It makes grinding and fetch quests so much less fucking tedious, and doesn't like punish players for not knowing the very specific order in which to play the game.
Baldur's Gate did this a bit too. I remember finding that ring from a mob outside of the castle, then meeting the owner of said lost ring, and instead of having to go either kill a mob that JUST spawned after activating some flag, or kill a respawn that suddenly magically has an item that it doesn't drop unless you have said quest already.. I just had the option to turn it over right then and there. Why, WHY is this not the absolute norm and standard? It's so simplistic but so effective imo.
@@shawnsmith3959 I understand completely. A game of which nature is to have no procedural generation, autocompleting quests you haven't even taken yet makes a lot of sense.
I still have yet to play the Baldur's Gate series, but it's good to know it takes up some of this.
@@ChadVulpes :D Good to see there's still friendly people on the internet you can have an enjoyable, civil and intellectually simulating conversation with. I hope your day is going well, cool random internet stranger dude! May the RNG gods smile upon you.
btw, kinda strange comparison I personally don't see/hear a lot, but on the off chance you've played Fallout 1/2, or Pathfinder games, you may find Baldur's Gate to also be enjoyable. Not clones by any means, but generally speaking in terms of "feel" and whatnot, I don't see the names mentioned compared or contrasted almost at all, I think it is kinda easy to overlook as it isn't immediately obvious.
To clarify, I'm talking about Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and RTWP, which I really struggled to get into myself but is one of the things I'm most glad I stuck out and got over that initial hurdle and was able to enjoy to the fullest later.
The 3rd and most recent BG release is also a fantastic, amazing game in its own right, but it's changed the formula a bit. However, even in BG3, I've come across those "Oh, I wonder what this item is/does" and then meeting the questgiver 10, 15, 20 mins or even hours later and being able to immediately turn it in for a reward. It's just a nice feeling.
I put 1+2 on my list as one item
here is my list:
typing out my list before you do:
- PS:T - branching reactive philosophical+literary thematic immersion (setting, characters, etc.)
- UnderRail - stat+skill+feat effective integration (supporting not dictacting the gameplay - even though it is essential to it)
- Age of Decadence - full-spectrum class design (as UnderRail did for non-class based support, AoD does for class-based support)
- Gothic 1+2 - because no matter how you play, your path/journey through growing your character is intrinsically tied to the game world and story (achieving the feeling of BEING your character more than most in a world richer than most)
- Pathfinder: WotR - effectiveness of implementation of an existing ruleset combined with allowing the player to play in a vast number of viable ways all which are seemlessly tied to the world, story, and your character's place within it
This dude’s poured his heart and soul into the gaming industry, for many years. Thanks for your contributions, sir.
I was so glad to hear you mention HL2. That game is still stunning to look at now. Valve did an amazing job on every aspect of the presentation. I almost wish that all the hardware Valve makes now wasn't excellent, so I could be mad at them for not making games as much. I'd love to play HL3 or Portal 3, but the index and Steam Deck rock. Even the work they do on proton has made linux gaming way easier.
A lot of that visual style was carried over to Arkane, specifically the Dishonored games.
Thank you for the list! And personally, I still play VtmB, it's such a brilliant game with insane replayability (and the OST!! and the voice actors!!!), you just wish there was more of it.
Great list. I'd definitely include The Witcher 3 - Amazing worldbuilding, humor, and storylines throughout. Plus the greatest minigame, Gwent!
Very insightful videos as always Tim, thank you for taking the time to make these.
10:10 this is so true! As a lifetime fan of your work who has seen the industry shape itself into something so different from what it was in the 90s, Baldur's Gate 3 and the reception to it is UNIMAGINABLE.
Camera setup is great, incredibly interesting video! Thanks Tim :)
One of the greatest things about you Tim is that even though you have been in (what I would consider) senior roles on many of the games you’ve worked on, you still talk about it so humbly.
Here you are basically just telling us that you’ve enjoyed the very same rpgs we have and in the same ways. I’m more willing to believe your opinions are credible because you’re so transparent about how much you love to both work on games as well as play them. We get to hear your about your expertise, but also your more relaxed side. Your channel is just so insightful.
Great list of games! I can definitely understand why you listed all those five as they all have something revolutionary in them.
Glad you squeezed Vampire Survivors at the end just on feelin. It's nothing like the main entries, but there is definitely some RPG style theory crafting.
It's worth reiterating that as long as you remember to give choices to the player and let them search for and unlock synergies, with a sprinkling of player influenced randomness, you've got a solid skinner box frame to serve as the chassis for your world and mechanics. A lot of RPGs don't differ their options enough, or have clearly superior paths that aren't outweighed by how fun it feels to play the other styles (*cough* Skyrim *cough*).
Have you played ATOM RPG yet? As a life long fallout fan, this game really made me smile.
The original fallout was the first game I bought with my own money (made mowing lawns) it still holds a special place in my heart.
As Chris Avellone had mentioned in a interview that:
"Villains are best when they are just allies you haven't out debated/out maneuvered yet."
Do you think the same way on writing an antagonist/is that the best way to write an antagonist? Like a rival effectually?
A part of me feels that this kind of pigeonholes your villains a bit into a specific mold, but it _does_ ring true with the projects he's worked on. Most of the factions in Alpha Protocol have their characters as both allies and antagonists and it works wonderfully, it makes the entire world feel full of thorns and forces you to maneuver and make damaging, irreversible decisions that change who stands with you and vice versa. It also makes you see your allies in a different light-- in Alpha Protocol, there are plenty of allies that will stand with you 90% of the time but still have scenarios where they'd gun you down too. I personally want to say that a good villain can absolutely come from a character that could never in any capacity be considered an ally, but this approach solves the problem of making sure your villain has a good motive and that the player can more or less glimpse into their mind through observations. A villain that only exists as a simple roadblock can easily feel undercooked and inconsistent.
I discovered Vampire Bloodlines this year and boy did I fall in love. What a well-made game in the narrative and immersive storytelling department. Just loved the RPG mechanics and made me realize what truly an RPG is.
Timothy, your segues and speeches are so universally common sense and elegant and natural..., the become part of the background of reality and I have trouble focusing on them. Thanks for doing these semi live when you respond to me I can read your lips but if the sound comes out it only comes out through headset whisper inner voice, (akil raas), and skips the speakers. Hard to admit we are really talking and a lot of the time I have to read lips to get the effect. I noticed you skipped on mentioning InXile I thought their game Torment: Tides of Numenera had a stupendously rich dialogue and story writing system (patting myself on the back, as I was a ghostwriter for it).
Here's a fun question, if you could go back in time & be apart of the development of any non RPG game that's already released what would you choose & why? Thanks!
Pretty solid list. I’d love to see more games with these elements, so I’ll make them.
Delving more into the "fun trumps realism" point, a really interesting concept said by Gabe Newell was the consequences and the causality of the player is really important.
I believe it was a discussion on the first Half-Life game, Gabe Newell was speaking to a developer about including the feature of bullet holes appearing when a player shot something. The other developer mistakenly thought it was to provide "realism" to the game, but Gabe Newell denied that, saying he didn't care much about the realism of the game, rather he cared that the actions of the player should have consequences on the world
new camera set up is great! love seeing all the stuff in your background
Thoughts on the Witcher and Dragon Age series?
I love this video so much. Thank you, Tim! I know you don't want to do reviews but damn it's awesome to hear your perspective or what you love about specific games.
Great video as always Tim!
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the differences, challeneges, and benefits of designing RPGs of a particular player camera view point (First Person vs. "God Mode" perspective, for example.).
- Is one easier to design for than another?
- What do you lose/gain from a design perspective with each option?
- How early in the game's concept development is the viewpoint decision made?
Cheere! 😄
1000 Percent Agree with all these takes!
World of Warcraft -- in its classic state -- is a masterpiece. Not because it's difficult or hard to grasp, but because of the sheer breadth and scope of the open world and how seamless it is.
It was such a dream come true as a kid. Truly an unforgettable experience I've yet to match maybe ever.
Maybe the only thing that has come close -- Skyrim!
I finally got my VR setup a few years back and I spent another 200 hours running around and creating multiple characters.
I am just now embarking on a New Vegas + Fallout 3 playthrough using the Tale of Two Wastelands Mod :)
My runner up in this category has to be the polished and finished version of Cyberpunk 2077 -- I think that while it is somewhat limited in its true "choice" mechanics, I was absolutely floored by the world building and the presentation.
It's not just the graphics, but rather, how thoughtful the way you play that game is while also retaining the ability for multiple playstyles/player freedom.
It truly sets the bar currently for me for any new RPG and I sincerely hope the sequel blows peoples minds.
You know what I love to do with Skyrim? Turn the compass rose off, disable the in-game map, navigate by LOS, turn the gamma to the lowest setting and print out a map of Skyrim so I can make notes on it.
Hi, Tim! I wanted to ask your opinions about the ports in general. I remember in one of your videos you've said something about PS3 port in South Park. I know that Outer Worlds is ported into Switch too lately. If you worked on theese ports(also more) what are differences? What is the hardest thing to do? How it's effecting the game development time? Do they cause crunch? If you have something to share about that topic I'll be glad to listen.
a surprising and solid list and includes 4 of my favorite rpgs.
Ave true to Caesar! Thanks to Tim's CORRECT pronounciation we now know on which side he is! ;)
Great camera setup.
One game I think teaches what it does well is Mass Effect 2, and I think that game is the pinnacle of 3rd person ARPG. If you want to learn how to make an action rpg that focuses on action first and foremost that’s the game to look at.
Too bad it ruined the storytelling established in the first game 🤷
Always willing to try to improve. Impressive, most impressive.
There's a lot to learn from you Tim, you're great!
Loved the Camera. Your face is really in focus.
Also, is there any "Character Class" you would like to see in more games? I'd love to see more "Mechanists". After Arcanum the idea of building clockwork machines and thingamajigs are a favorite of mine.
Hey Tim, i loved the new camera setup. Also great video, some of my favorite RPGs there. if it was a top 10 i would add:
Dragon age origins, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Disco Elysium, The witcher 3 and Mass effect 2
also Cyberpunk2077 and Kingdom come deliverance were pretty good
That’s a really great list!
Witcher 3, for sure...I've been playing through it , for the first time , with First person toggle, shaders, and various mods...hell of an experience...it's everything I loved about Oblivion and then some
Thanks for this! I’ve been hoping for exactly this video. :)
Great camera setup, Tim! Much better than the previous one, I do prefer it a bit higher up
Half-life 2 did not come out that long ago!! Not Half-life 1 either! Im not old Tim! Stop it!
We are old
Windows XP is still the best windows.
Since on the topic of RPG's you really should play Warhammer 40k: Rogue Trader, if you already didn't. - it's also a very strong contender for modern isometric/dimetric best RPG. One of the stronger features of the game is keeping the setting very close to the source materials as well as allow player to make mistakes and make them roll with them.
Agree. I enjoyed it even more than BG3, despite the bugs.
I am really enjoying rogue trader. I might even like it more than bg3. But I think it’s just dishonest to suggest it is a better crafted game.
Thanks for your perspective. Great picks. Spot on m8
Looking good with the new camera setup, Tim. Keep up!
Vampire Bloodlines definitely deserves to be there :) I would add the latest version of Cyberpunk 2077, I think they now have classes were they interact with the first person mechanics really well.
Hi Uncle Tim,
What's your Skyrim and fallout new vegas mod list?
Or do you prefer vanilla?
Indeed, inquiring minds want to know!
Stock F:NV is unplayable, get the community patch and the game will only crash occasionally
@@Emu0181 I play it without mods and never had it crash
I love the way you see, "it's me, Tim". Fantastic :)
What a great overview. I love that games are picked out because of certain facets they perfect. There’s no one game that’s the best at everything….and even if there was no one would agree on what it was.
Hi, Tim, have you ever played Dragon's Dogma? It's an action RPG and while it does have flaws, no game I've ever played managed to give me the same feeling of adventure. The pawn system it has is also something that I'm pretty sure was never done before.
I really liked the feeling of exploration in DD, the map being revealed as you explore in order to hide its true scale is an excellent quality that Elden Ring picked up on
makes me wish ER's fast travel was more restricted like in DD which connected some areas via dungeons with multiple entrances
sort of similar to how the first Dark Souls gradually made its world easier to travel via shortcuts you would find, it feels a lot more rewarding than simply flipping a switch in a location to activate a fast travel point
Wow that’s an old one nowadays. I had a buddy who loved DD, but I never got the chance to play it
DD rocks! The customisation was also easily best in class when it came out
I agree, Dragon's Dogma is an action RPG masterpiece. Tim should really check it out!
I played it and Elden Ring is better in every way.
I would re-center your face in the camera shot JUST SLIGHTLY. Other than that, the new presentation is perfect
Tim you’re an interesting person to listen to. I always get a lot of wisdom and insight
Thank you, you're so humble and professional 🙏
Hi Tim, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the game Underrail (no not undertail) but it definitely checks the boxes of 'harder is more fun' and making players earn the lore.
Underrail was great. Hard though! I had to become the King of Grenade Spam
He mentioned on some forum that he really enjoyed underrail.
One of the best "totally not fallout + more combat" games I've ever played. Underrail is excellent, especially the expansion.
Good list, I'm surprised how much overlap with my own list. I would also include Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2. I could understand excluding Mass Effect by saying it's more a shooter, but it has what I love most about rpgs, and that's great characters and lore. I grew up on the old point-and-click adventure games, and I was in it for the storytelling. RPGs kind of took their place. Yeah, there was the dnd mechanics, but that's not really what drew me to them. It was still the exploration and storytelling. And now that has evolved again into an rpg/action hybrid, and I'm fine with that too. Though I still love when games like Baldur's Gate 3 come out. But shooter, dice rolls, realtime or turnbased doesn't really matter to me as long as there is interesting places to explore and good characters & storytelling.
Every issue the third ME game had in concluding the trilogy was a direct result of ME2's mishandling of its story. If all you're looking for is character motifs, it's very well-written, but if you care about the larger arc of the trilogy and keeping that compelling and meaningful, it's actually the greatest failure of the franchise.
@@Crazy_Diamond_75 I disagree. ME1 had the best plot. ME2 had the best character development. And ME3 was just a mess. ME3's failure to wrap up the threads from 1&2 (in a satisfying way) is not the fault of ME2. I actually enjoyed ME3 in a check-your-brain-at-door kind of way, but acknowledge the writing wasn't very good. Personally, I use a couple of mods that alter the ending. They remove the star child and all that deus ex machina nonsense. After you deal with ILM You just push the button to open up the citadel, The crucible comes in, attaches and boom all the reapers go bye-bye. And then it cuts to the party scene of the Citadel DLC for a nice little epilogue. That's not a perfect ending, but it's so much better than what we were given, and saves the series for me.
@@wavion2 ME 2 didn't bother continuing any of the threads from the first game. It branched into a tangent plot with new stakes and new characters. So ME3 was left to clean up the mess 2 created, and it became a disjointed, broken mess because of it. In isolation, 2 appears great, but if you're looking at the trilogy _as a whole_ it's the weak link that set up many of 3's more obvious failures.
@@Crazy_Diamond_75 What threads from ME1? Other than "The Reapers are coming!"? Which they continued.
@@wavion2 The first game sets up the Protheans, and how understanding what happened to them helps us to understand what happens in the Reaper cycle (Ilos is a great example). Shepard is a Spectre, which gives him autonomy, and has the knowledge of the Prothean beacon, which helps him understand Prothean communication. He has a Prothean expert on his team (Liara), and a ship with stealth technology that will let him go basically anywhere with impunity. Finally, there remains large unexplored swaths of the galaxy (closed relays from the Rachni wars) where all sorts of clues, mysteries, revelations, and answers could have been discovered.
So, at the end of the first game we know that a) the Reapers are coming, but b) we just bought some time to figure out what to do about it since they're still stuck in dark space, and c) Shepard is the only one with the autonomy and resources to look for a solution.
There is so much they could have done with that setup and premise. But instead they do what is essentially a soft reboot and ignore all that Reaper business in favor of a side-plot about an obscure extremist faction from the first game retconned to be some uber-powerful mercenary group.
So, in the 3rd game, it basically starts with "Welp, Reapers are here. Too bad we didn't do literally anything about it to prepare." So now we have to do all the clue-hunting and teambuilding we were _supposed_ to do in the last game in an incredibly rushed and disconnected fashion, building up to a final conflict that doesn't mean anything, because we didn't do enough world-building around the Reapers, their origins, or the nature of the cycle to set it up properly.
Imagine if we had spent the 2nd game actually LEARNING about the Reapers, and how much more impactful that could have made literally any other finale than the Deus Ex Machina we got.
Does that make sense? I haven't talked about this much in the last few years, so I had to regather and recollect my thoughts a little bit.
Nice list, those are absolutely some of my favorite games of all time. Great minds think alike :P
I’ve played quite a few RPG’s including FO1 and FO2 multiple times in the 90’s and in my 2 cents Disco Elysium is one of the best RPGs I’ve ever played. The setting, the world building, the characters, the game mechanics, the writing, the music, the story, the mood - were all excellent. Lighting in a bottle now.
New Vegas was funny almost every chance it got. There’s almost always a bit or joke running and it’s one of the most fallout feeling things
I knew Fallout: New Vegas was going to make this list but it still makes me happy to hear the mention!
Tim gettin fancy with these camera set ups. Im a fan.
The Gauge Meter for Status Effects is really a great thing in general.
For example in Diablo 2 you had the 'Hit Recovery' mechanic, which would 'microstun' you for # frames if you loose more than #% of your health in 1 Second, and also 'Block Recovery', which would also make a 'microstun' when blocking attacks.
You could mitigate these with Faster Hit Recovery and Faster Block, but it often happened that you got "Stun Locked".
If instead of these there would be some sort of "Stagger Meter" that has to fill up before you get stunned (like getting dismounted in Diablo 4), it would still lead to tactical gameplay, while also being less annoying (b/c no more stun-lock) and more manageable.
Can work for longer stuns or CC's as well.
Tim I would love for you to play underrail, it's a wonderful "modern" re-imagining of fallout and I love that it takes so much from fallout while feeling so fresh. It's crafting system especially is fantastic and I think you will love it. (It's a isometric turn based post apocalyptic crpg.)
Great video as always. One game you missed off for me is Disco Elysium. No game had ever done a non combat RPG, all dialogue, rpg as good as that. Also having stats that if you raise to high have natural negatives, and having your inner dialogue fighting itself.
It is a masterclass in story and dialogue. Yes, you must play as Harry, but you can change him greatly.
Plus the music and art are just gorgeous.
If you haven't played, I recommend it to everyone who loves just being absorbed into a world... and don't mind deep thought and reading.
I feel gaslit by the lack of DE in his list lol
You listed most of my favorite games. The only one I have not played is Elden Ring. I still play Skyrim, FNV, and VTMB. A huge appeal to those games is not only are the base games fantastic, but they have also continued to be modded even now. Look at Skyrim and FNV on Nexus mods, there are still many mods being released for them everyday. Heck there is still mods being released for Morrowind (also one of my favorite games). VTMB still has a modding community, which is interesting because it is so much more difficult to mod than the other games, but there are few mods out there that add companions, or the ability to join the Sabbat, and lot of other cool content. VTMB holds a really special place in my childhood (John DiMaggio as Jack was such a nice touch). After listening to you talk about Arcanum on one of your other videos... I am actually doing an evil elf wizard replay. I loved it when I first played it, but I missed a lot of content when I was younger because of how I played games. It is still a fun game to revisit.
I don't want to be a game developer, and I don't really have any questions, but I did want to say I really enjoy listening to these chats. Thank you!
There are quite a few examples of fun turn-based battles.
Im really enjoying Wartales atm. I really didnt expect to be so addicted to it, and its shown me many ways that turn-bases battles can be fun.
This is a great list, many timeless games here
Have you played Cyberpunk:2077? If so, what are your thoughts on it? In my opinion it's one of the best RPGs I've played in a long time, I've done 3 playthroughs in a little over 200 hours of playtime. I think one of the best things I can say for it is that I almost never engaged with the fast travel system until the end of my last playthrough where I was mopping up the last handful of achievements.
Cyberpunk is a looter shooter. Even CD project gave up calling it rpg half way through they marketing campaign and changed it to action open world game
Cyberpunk is a simple action game for simple people.
@@thatdixion Actually didn't know they reclassified it, and yeah can absolutely see that. Tbh it's not very RPG like at all but the story hits for me and the world design is amazing. Not a huge fan of the phantom liberty changes but I had fun with it
@@notchedbandit we're not talking about bg3 here or elden ring.
I'm playing it right now and while it's a fun action game, I find the RPG part pretty limited as most dialog elements is out of our control.
Too often our only true choice is to not say something, and even then sometimes the rest of the conversation acts like the line you didn't click was said.
I feel V is CDPR's character much more than it is mine.
For me, Skyrim is the paradigmatic example of how to create interest in the player for the game world without completely satisfying it. In my opinion, the early stages of Skyrim perfectly reflect what you're saying. However, after a medium-length playthrough focusing on the main quest and completing a plethora of side missions, the feeling of interest has been replaced by absolute fatigue. You realize that all the dungeons and caves follow the same structure in terms of level design, diminishing some of the intrinsic fun of exploring these locations. Something that I think doesn't affect as much but definitely has a bit of an impact is the reward system. Sometimes there's a useful word, other times there's no word or it's not a useful one. It's not the worst, but personally, it leaves a bit of bitterness.
Lastly, I believe that the radiant quest system can generate a lot of fatigue. In other words, after completing a couple of quests of this type and realizing that they don't add anything or feel repetitive, at least in my case, instead of enriching the world with life, it completely destroys that illusion. I understand why you value Skyrim positively, and I don't want to change anyone's opinion. I just want to present another point of view on the game to facilitate a healthy debate about design.
I like the new camera set-up.
Something you seem quite married to in RPGs is tethering progression mostly if not entirely to some abstract leveling, rather than having individual skills progress as you use them and having characters develop bit by bit rather than level up chunks.
"individual skills progress as you use them" -- This form of skill progression is perfect for open world games in which the skill might be used practically anywhere. Alas, there are some who believe the fact that a few players will craft hundreds of iron daggers in order to progress their smithing skill, for example, means all players will do that; consider it an exploit; and patch it out or change it in future games. (Bummer.)
I know of another game that was using such a system, but a few players were crafting dozens of stone axes to progress, artificially, the more organically progressed skillset instead. Ergo, its working "learn by doing" system was replaced with a "learn by looting" system, seemingly with no thought whatsoever as to the fact that the game's wilderness areas do not feature the abundant containers included in its town and city POIs -- containers from which to retrieve the necessary loot items, thereby reducing the appeal of its wilderness areas to near zero.
Poor developers. What are they to do in the face of such devilish impertinence? {swoon}
No, seriously. What are they going to do? :)
@lrinfi I don't think there is inherently a problem with having systems players can exploit in a single player or co op focused game, so long as you balance it to be engaging for players not exploiting it.
Great video as always!
I have a topic I've been very interested in, designing and balancing a game. Like how would you come up with a Mage and Warrior character class, ensuring that they play differently, yet have roughly similar power levels. How would you come up with interesting and complementary skills, that allow deep strategies? How would you come up with numerical values for things like damage and health, to ensure the game presents a fair amount of challenge? How would you playtest it, and know what to tweak, based on player feedback?
I think you have unique experience in this area, and thre isn't a lot of usable content that covers it on youtube. Could you walk us through the process, either through a made-up educational example, or dissecting one of your old games?
Camera setup feels like an improvement, frequently went out of focus when moving with the old one.
On the video topic, I feel Deadfire has by far the best UI in a CRPG (with the notable exception of the reduced inventory sorting options compared to the prequel, which still boggles the mind), that others (ESPECIALLY BG3) should learn from. Not sure if you worked on that, but whoever's responsible deserves a shoutout. Also best RTWP combat.
Surprised at the abscence of The Witcher 3
In my opinion Disco Elysium is a masterclass in how to write dialogues is an rpg with choices with a lot of weight on them
Every game on this list really does have something to teach developers about effective video game design. Really enjoyed this video and would enjoy more in depth talks about the specific aspects of these games that makes them worthy of emulation. I have my own ideas but I’m not a developer. I just play games and really love RPG’s.
I really wanted you to say Planescape Torment because it is my favourite RPG ever but your selections are really cool. I just think PT's setting and narrative are the most realized I have ever experienced in a game. Now, I know that the setting and certain characters such as Lady of Pain etc were not convieved by the actual writers of the game as it was a 3.5e campaign setting, but regardless. I think about it a lot.....like....A LOT.
Hi Tim,
Can I ask you about your opinion about Witcher 3? Do you think it could possibly fit in your top list?
Finally a word on Baldur's Gate 3.
To me Larian delivered on Cyberpunk 2077's promise - remember that 40-minute demo that ended with the narrator telling us how that was just one chain of choices and there are many more that will shape the story?
And in the final game that was one of the very few missions with any consequence (not even all branches, siding with Madeline /or w/e the name was/ just gave you a hotel scene and a dildo and that story never affected anything ever, yeah great depth CDPR... I scum saved a lot of choices and the game is full of flavour text aka fake choices, and the few consequences that there are manifest in literally the next mission... Well that game was a disappointing RPG with the shallowest outcomes, I mean it's closer to being a "GTA with extra steps" rather than a modern New Vegas. Thankfully Larian came to deliver on something another company has promised
and just I imagined it
it is glorious.
If you like RPGs with a lot of choice and consequences I highly suggest you Tyranny (made by obsidian btw) while not as cinematic as Cyberpunk and BG3 (most of the characters are not voice acted) the game is very reactive to your choices, and like New Vegas it has 4 different paths you can take in the main story, not only that before the game even starts you can create your own backstory, by choosing decisions your character took before the game even starts, and this can change areas of the world or characters/factions opinions of you. Overall it is a very underrated crpg that is a must play for everyone who likes a good story!
Great list! Skyrim is definitely my go-to for some cozy exploration
4:28 On lore, I love when games make you look for it, BUT ONLY IF you don't need it to progress in the video game itself. (like reading an email to get a door code or similar.) Then it becomes a chore, rather than fun.
tim, have you ever heard of this retro RPG from the early 2000s called "arcanum: of steamworks and magick obscura"? I think that one is a masterclass in setting and writing
Nah thats a bit too obscure for tim.
I feel like I'm the only one who thought adding open world to Elden Ring made the experience less cohesive, if not worse. All the other points Tim brought up about ER have existed since the early days of Souls, and I feel that the cohesive and intertwining nature of FromSoft's map building in the Souls series trumps the "I have to ride my horse for minutes to find anything interesting" nature of ER. In Souls, the world is intimate and curated. In ER, you have to visit one of the "legacy dungeons" to get a similar experience. I feel keeping the curated and intricate world design would have been better - you could have "next gen'd" it by making the world itself larger without adding minutes of horse riding and mobs between them.
My personal feeling as a much more casual Souls player is that the DS series still has plenty of long treks. Going through some places in Anor Londo, Blighttown, or Darkroot Forest, intricate isn't the word that comes to mind as the places are sprawling and sometimes even sloppy. But the sense of scale does help the room feel like a long journey. To me the open world elements of ER just accentuate this, both the problems and benefits. Exploring the world sort of invoked that feeling of passing through less combative or dangerous areas in DS 1 or 2, and I felt like a lot of care was put into making sure it didn't feel like a Far Cry style timewaster with pretty foliage.
I really enjoyed following routes and paths along the world, stumbling into ambient enemies in the open world spaces, and finding less important areas like camps because they never hurt my sense of scale that the original games had-- it just felt like instead of being restricted to specific level design of winding paths, you had more moments (not always!) to see the full landscape at your own pace. The only thing I didn't care for was that I felt like the open world did require me to grind for resources with a longer traversal and more randomness to what areas I was searching, which brought back some of those unpleasant feelings of having large amounts of terrain just for the sake of it in a ton of modern Ubisoft titles.
You're not the only one. Neverknowsbest's review was among the best I've seen. The more signifant points I personally disagreed with had more to do his own choices than the game itself, e.g. his choosing to do exactly as he was told by the first NPC he ran across rather than exploring the starting area and leveling up before heading to Stormveil Castle. Yeah. That one's entirely on him. :)
The game is more accessible than others in the genre due to the fact that you can avoid getting stuck on a single boss forever and/or use the spirit ashes, if desired, etc.
They didn't. Dark Souls is a small-scale game with limited movement, it is nowhere near as open as Elden Ring.
Games like New Vegas, Fallout 1 and 2, BG3 have one feature in common (maybe some games i forgot about), they lock player out of some content. For making some choices, for not paying attention to some details, or sometimes for the way you build your character. and they all left a "what if" question after finishing the game, and made me want to play again. Ive completed Fallout 2 about 10 times and each playthrough there was something i didnt see before
8:20
I think the best example of this in New Vegas is the quest that wants you to stop the Ghouls attacking Novac. If you help the ghouls launch off in their rockets, you get a fun cut scene and even good karma, but later on you can find the crashed rockets, dead ghouls and radiation leaking out of the rockets, damaging the surrounding areas. I didn't realise the negative effect because up to that point I had only been rewarded. There is also much more to that quest line that makes it great, with the Nightkin and the chap who thinks he's a ghoul and keeps calling you a smoothskin.
Would love to see more stuff like that in RPG's.
Baldurs Gate, Final Fantasy 6, Fallout 3, Mass Effect 2, Deus Ex
It's a shame that Bethesda made Starfield the complete opposite of Skyrim in terms of exploration. Its so incredibly boring.
every single bethesda game gets more dumbed down and lamer than the last one, for decades now :(
And yet people have put and continue to put hundreds of hours into the game and don't feel the same way. It's different from Skyrim but different doesn't mean not fun.
It's not fun.@@r.rodriguez4991
A lot of ppl find skyrim, fallout 3/nv boring as well.
I Loved Starfield i don't think any of the 4 or 5 faction questlines(5 to 10hrs each) were anywhere near boring
@@pabluh18 Pretty sure the questlines are the least boring part of Starfield and not what OP was talking about anyway.
1. *World of Warcraft* - 1:50
2. *Elden Ring* - 3:28
3. *The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim* - 5:47
4. *Fallout: New Vegas* - 7:10
5. *Baldur’s Gate III* - 9:40
HM. *Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines* - 11:10
HM. *Half-Life 2* - 11:33
HM. *Vampire Survivors* - 12:18
I like the new camera setup, it looks so much better
No way witcher 3 didn't make even the extras
Not everyone likes it. I can’t get into I tried 100 times
@@neonbible08 whys so?
@@neonbible08was that the first Witcher that you played?
Because its a cinema, not an rpg. Witcher 1 fits a bit better in that regard
So for me, the Witcher 3 is in my top 5 *games* of all time, but definitely NOT my top 5 *role-playing* games of all time.
Granted, this is extremely subjective. But while the Witcher 3 is a genuinely breathtaking, emotionally beautiful open world adventure game, I don’t necessarily consider it to be a full-on RPG.
It does a fantastic job of integrating certain RPG *elements* into its gameplay systems - in a way that a lot of open world action games fail to do, or do in a tedious way (I’m thinking of the new Assassin’s Creed games in particular). Like, the choices Witcher 3 presents you with are meaningful and go far beyond the illusory choices of many open world adventure games.
That being said, there’s just certain things that hold it back from being a good example of a full-on RPG to me. For example, you’re always Geralt. You have a lot of choices, especially with the politics of the world or his personal life. But at the end of the day, Geralt is Geralt. We know him from the books. We love him. Whether you make good or bad choices, his demeanor, personality, and outlook on life are always Geralt’s.
As far as combat goes, it’s really just: do you want to use swords, swords + spells or swords + potions. You also can’t spec Geralt into a stealth character, a low intelligence idiot, a low charisma dork, a wizened old man, or a stupid young man.
And again, all of that is fine! Not every game needs to be a role-playing game. Nor should they all be. I just wanted to offer why I wouldn’t include the Witcher 3 in my top 5 RPGs, and offer some insight into why others might not include it, either.
To me, it’s a very, very good open world adventure game that uses elements of RPGs to enhance itself, rather than making itself a full-on RPG.
The best RPG’s I’ve ever played are -
Enderal
Cyberpunk 2077
Chrono trigger
Fallout New Vegas
Fallout 3
Kingdomcome deliverance
The Witcher 3
Dragon age origins
Star Wars KOTOR
Baldurs gate 1
Red dead redemption 2
Vampire the masquerade
Morrowind
Great vid as always. Just one thing: Vampire survivors was not made in unity. It was made in an engine called Phaser for the PC version. Only when the console ports happened the game was re-made in unity from scratch. Still the creator programs the new features in the old Phaser version to be used as a model internally. Then the other devs re-program these new changes and features into the Unity version to be deployed for the public. This is an interesting process. He thinks is better than just explaining his ideas with a design doc or something.
Hi tim! I had a question i had for a while and hopefully and apologies if you had answer it already, but start of fallout 1 intro where the tv is playing and zooms out to the city ruins, was that a way for the player to see whats the game is about and just put in there or is it after the bombs fell?
WoW's issue is that it's not an MMO, it's a single-player (or, at best, a co-op) experience that takes place on a server. It doesn't have politics, it barely has an economy and lacks any other "massive" factors of an actual MMO. Hundreds of games tried to replicate its "themepark MMO" style, only to fail in less than a year. There are no lessons to take, other than "huge marketing and player addiction can prolong a mediocre game well past the lifespan it deserves".