Will Self: The internet is a false friend
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- čas přidán 20. 07. 2024
- As part of English National Opera's production of Two Boys, Will Self shares his views about the dangers of living in the modern, online world.
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The problem with the nice, stylized subtitling is that it's Will Self, and it is therefore not beyond the bounds of possibility that he was somehow contextualizing "praying" But, of course, we all knew he said and meant "preying"
yes, that was really poor, and the effect was comically amplified by the unconventional typesetting, other than that, a stimulating discourse
The onscreen text is completely unnecessary.
2:40 "People may be praying on that exact gulf..." Praying? Hmmm.
ONSCREEN TEXT IS VERY USEFUL FOR NON NATIVE SPEAKERS THOUGH...
I go into a book shop, browse around, find the section where the books I like to read are, open some attractive looking books. I flick through a few, smell that new book aroma and finally choose one or two I consider most interesting. I then go home and buy them £10 cheaper on Amazon.
i dont see a problem with most of what he says here.
So..
Going to a book store is enjoyable.
Buying online is unengaging.
I miss the days of old underground book stores.
In a sense the internet is a painkiller - a free realm where we shed societies perceptions of our identity and qualities. But this is often romanticized - in actual fact it acts as a distraction from dealing with those kind of material prejudices in the first place, which in turn serves to maintain them.
Many people think the internet is the start of a trend in a new era. I hope it comes crashing down in all its fragility, after which we can sift the good bits from the bad amongst the rubble.
Rather fanciful view of a book-buying experience. Can't say my local bookstore would have any idea what books I should be reading or would be interested in.
Love listening to this man talk about nearly anything. The fact I discovered him through vic and bob is somewhat astounding XD
Will Self assume people want to interact with each other...
"the reason he doesn't say face is because he has a wide vocabulary" i have a wide enough vocabulary as well to know what a visage is, and what it means, but i dont say it. i think he said it to make himself sound smart
But I DON'T have a conversation when I go into a book shop Will. And I dare say I could live without chatting to the girl who serves me a carton of milk.
Will Self finds time portal on the Charing Cross road which connects to a bookshop in 1923. Bought an Agatha Christie but bookseller recommends he reads The Wasteland. History!
After almost two and a half decades on this planet, I can probably count the light conversations with store staff I've had on one hand... Let alone complex, mediated or personalised experiences. Most shop staff either aren't paid enough, or don't have the level of depth or knowledge to recommend or push you towards purchases anyway. And I don't blame them for that in the slightest, I just don't see how it's a mark against the internet when all my shopping experiences have been just as simple.
I very much dig the intro music, spliced vocals, love em
Sounds like the mutterings of hellfire nymphs as you creep from a doric forest into Hades...
I agree with a lot of his points but I have never had a complex, mediated or personalised experience in a bookshop or any other shop for that matter
Well that's one strawman won't be giving us any more trouble. Congratulations on your flawless victory over a non-existent opponent, Nimrod.
The problem with Self's perspective on this topic is that he seems to be lamenting an era of interpersonal interaction in shops that hasn't existed for at least a decade. There are very few shop staff members, particularly amongst the larger high-street retailers, who have any idea about the products they sell other than on which shelves they sit. The impersonal shopping experience of both the high street and internet are two sides of the same corporatist coin.
Self seems to think that the rest of humanity are cretins. That he can see the these things about the online world, but the rest of us, dimwitted sheep to a man, are completely taken in.
It is what it is, Will. We get it. Your amazing insights here are pretty mundane really.
I agree with what he is saying however the real problem will be when virtual reality becomes so visually and physically lifelike that it will require effort to differentiate between reality and technology. Right now its quite easy to tell the difference and most people seem to be able to engage with the internet and virtual reality whilst behave normally in real life
Great vid; hilarious and thought provoking. His eloquence is somewhat distracted by the annoying text which keeps popping up as quotes (which are mostly inaccurate).
'Bullying' on the internet is just a reflection of bullying in the real world though. i agree with that experience shit, bang on braav!
I think it trivializes our intelligence and insight to cast a net in which people consider a website making product suggestions their friend. Most people I know are astute enough to deduce the difference between a human dispatching real advice and an algorithm which most likely has only past purchases as an input.
"this rage and anger that they're not famous"
EASY FOR YOU TO SAY WILL SELF. YOU'RE FAMOUS YOURSELF. I'M JUST SAT AT HOME RAGING ALL THE TIME. ARRRRGHHH
@SuperGraffic but it could more effectively damaging because you feel such a strong sense of the two things being separate, and that you are sure you are safe from it. Things do not have to be a part of the real world to change you or harm you.
@oneillsdc5
Maybe he meant it as a double entendre?
Great video I enjoyed this very much and I as much concerned and I feel that I have fallen prey too in ways. Ha!
I find that in many bookstores the owners/assistants have an attitude that I am there to ruin their lives and would rather be chatting to their fellow employers than me. The idea that they are any way knowledge on their stock or have any interest in your taste would also be a mistake.
Brilliant
One of the last people to own a physical copy of a thesaurus and a dictionary, rather than simply relying on Internet search results. He'll hold the Book of Self
Totally agree with Self. He's spot on.
I envy Will Self for being able to hold forth on the internet desultorily and superficially without a scrap of notes in his tremor-free hands. A quarter century of drug addiction and hard- earned anomie have fortified him with a formidable vocabulary samples of which he does not hesitate to flaunt in scribal, actual or virtual encounters. I have seen him use recherche, rococo, orotund, and egregious in a single breath without batting an eyelid. But "many myriads of people..." was over the top !
i feel inspired to write a comment, as it seems everyone else has.
Yeah, I'm sure traditional book sellers were always telling their customers to get out more and stop reading books. I'm sure that each and every one of them deeply cared about their customer's well being and that the answer to "what book should I buy?" was never some variation on "what we've got in stock". I'm sure that Sainsburys and Tescos prior to the 1990s were always full of deep friendships and fascinating conversations between the shop assistants and the customers.How can anybody take this prattling jackanape seriously?
+BritishCommentWriter
"How can anybody take this prattling jackanape seriously?"
Self-referential, obviously....I was wondering if anyone besides yourself ever takes you seriously.
I don't think anyone considers the internet to be a friend, it's enjoyable but it's not a friend.
yes, yes, and yes again
It seems intelligence is directly proportional to negative imagination.
WOW.... what an incredibly wise man will self is.sIGH. how i yearn for conversations with some depth, But of course im not seeing the forest for the trees i know...depth, beauty and connection are there to be mined in any & all interactions !
you just gotta dig for it ! & sometimes thats a bigger ask than others. And WOW how revealing are the comments... !!! there we are all there - how we obsess about the trivialities of life !! spelling mistakes, anger,over intellectualisation, opinioning ,
Because visage has been part of the English language for about 800 years, there was a little something called the Norman conquest which led to many French words being co-opted into English. The reason he doesn't just say face is because he has a wide vocabulary and so can therefore choose the words that best describe the ideas he's trying to get across rather than just blathering on in pidgin English.
I don't really agree with his conclusion, but I agree with most of the message.
i would like to have a chat with this guy :D
people must be "preying" upon, not "praying"
Actually, I suspect that it would take rather more verbiage to articulate his ideas were he to be as monosyllabic as you suggest.
Do you actually think the guy talking edited the text into the video?
In that case the problem is the people, not the internet. As in not giving someone a gun because some people use it unintelligently and shoot themselves with it. People should be responsible for their own well being and if they decide to hurt themselves, too bad for them.
He has a point (and great interview!) but yet I think he overestimates the 'personal relationship' with the bookshop owner that he says is lost with the move to online e-commerce. There is probably an argument to be made that the retailer in your favourite bookshop was just putting on a facade to get you buying a book and returning again in the future!
Will Self is right that the anonymity means that there is not that ongoing relationship of you having a clerk you recognise and them hopefully recognising you (though honestly that depends on you being a frequent enough patron, or a big enough spender) for them to make sure to remember your name on the return visit!), but then the 'old fashioned' relationship is perhaps the more exhausting one for the shop worker who has to keep the mask of civility up! Perhaps it is gullible to think that e-commerce is very different from the older way of conducting transactions (as with dating)
tl;dr: All commerce is about people who are not willingly coming together being forced to interact to receive goods (or in dating terms, a service)
Online shopping; yes I do miss unhelpful shop assistants. I miss those rich relationships.
I do think he is stretching to make a point.
@manychefsbroth
It's the relationship with "pushy" salespeople that I think Will wants you to experience. It's the clever act of bartering that helps us to read people. It helps us to reward ourselves, often at the expense of those "poorly trained pushy salespeople" you speak of.
It helps you to develop people skills that you really can't learn by shopping and clicking on an Amazon web page.
4:48 [citation needed] Not saying he should provide a reference in this video of course, but that's a claim bold enough to warrant citation. I mean really? Even taking into account the internet juggernaut, Facebook?
I thought he talked very clearly and very easy to understand - unlike 99% of youtube comments ;) I think there is also element to what he is saying, that people don't want to understand. Because it's bit close to the bone - especially on a site like youtube. I mean, how many wasted hours can people waste on this kind of "interaction". After a couple comments, I am spent, interest-wise.
내 친구에게 네가 매우 많은 책만 읽고 있구나 말해 주고 싶다니 영화를 배우고 싶은 학생이 놀 생각 없이 같은 영화를 수도 없이 반복해서 보고 있단 말이에요. 영화 하는 놈들과 놀아야 네가 그 영화는 그저 부조리를 담은 부조리극이었다는 사실을 알면 되는 것이었는데 그 부조리극의 부조리를 해석하려고 하고 있었단 말이죠.
English is rich with influence of many other languages. Latching onto specific words seems a little petty and utterly valueless. If anyone needs to see what I have written with 1 or 2 word syllables, let me know and I will translate.
Tell you what, it's frightening just how ''lost'' I feel when my computer won't access the internet (like today and yesterday). I'm definately hooked. I went back to my books, but I thought how I must check out some things on YT coz you DO get serious stuff on it.And going into shops isn't ALWAYS nice. I got a lecture from a total stranger for buy ''Frosty Jack's'' cider. It was only coz my mate suggested it. It was like something from Self's fiction, the woman's husband had died from the stuff
.... and if anyone wants to know what a syllable is, please let me know so I can specifically ignore you :)
His rants strike me off as a sort of inertial push. I think anyone can say pretty much the same thing about a bookshop as well when you compare it to a library. Or vice-versa. The clear distinction would be that in one case you'll be implicitly persuaded by a person towards an action that satisfies his economic aim.
The question should rather be, is that rich-personal experience the absolute reason you visit a bookshop?
I can't even see through why would he think internet pretends to be his friend. This technology is a medium. At the end of the day, it is humans communicating at the ends. Even when they're not computer programs too are human constructs.
@bowbrick
Don't you think it's quite likely that someone else was responsible for the editing, rather then Will Self ?
Beautifully articulated ugly generalisations.
At the beginning, it sounds like Self is describing reification, the objectification or 'thingification' of otherwise non-commercial or unexchangeable orientated facets of life into goods intended for exchange. Common feature of Marxist discourse.
Will Self clearly doesn't use Facebook, he has got it all wrong.
he has a point. For a change.
Wonderful - every commentator here is such a graphic representation of what Will is describing :D Oops, does that make me the same?...
reminds me of Fahrenheit 451
Will Smith goes against George Orwell's idea that language should be simple and easy to understand. 'Contingent' is not a usual word, it is used in philosophy and will therefore confuse a lot of people. He means 'fundamental' characteristics = the word is actually badly used.
Also, this video explains Stickam.
Protip: Don't go there.
"Visage" is English. "Face" is also French. Everybody has their own idiolect, which is their own personal, unique expression of the language they speak, a kind of dialect of one, and it's many years a-building. He's himself; if he twists your knickers, you're the one with the insecurity.
shouldnt he say 'none of them was'? thats what they taught me at school
yeah that's right
Marry me, Will!
@uzideath From 'Two Boys', by Nico Muhly
Could well be the Overture, but that's a guess.
Will Self is very perceptive here...especially about this age of 'frustrated' celebrity that we live in now. Its a phenomenon that hasn't been analysed enough publicly, yet I see I see it everywhere. The way people act and the way they want to be seen makes me think I'm looking at a parade of wannabe GQ covers. The great question of our age is where did all the ordinary people go? Or more to the point why do people feel the need to 'conform' to some surface image of being 'extraodinary'?
I want to live in Will Selfs head
Promiscuity is the road to loneliness? That's not what it looked like outside the Lava Lounge in Bournemouth last Friday.
can i meet you there next friday?
truer the longer is stats up here
Am I missing something? I'm confused how Will got from using an online, impersonal experience of book retail to a friend advising you on time you spend reading books or money spent buying them. The fact I purchase any item online does not stop friends of mine 'in the real world' being conscious of my activity and thus sharing their thoughts. It just so happens I shop online because I can browse at my leisure without being persuaded and pressurised by poorly trained and pushy sales people.
...and yes I have been part of the beast but there is no alternative (at the moment) but I resist on a daily basis. For instance I try and think before making any purchase whether the means of production suit my view point and matches my values and I always try and buy things that are being sold as near to the point of manufacture both geographically and economically. In a world dominated by Capitalism it's one of the only tools we have to combat it... perhaps I'm tilting at windmills?
Yes !! I deffo think that you are right MrBazza.Will uses words-the way he does ...not to make himself sound smart but because he has a 1st class VOCABULARY and not a lot of ppl ( to quote Michael Caine )...Know Dat !!
He thinks we are all idiots. Thanks Will. Never though of this before (irony/sarcasm alert).
LETS PUT TEXT UP THAT EXPLAINS WHAT THE GUY IS SAYING WORD. FOR. WORD.
Also let's add random filters to make it look artistic.
I have started dreaming I'm on CZcams. Heaven's above ! I need to ''get a life.''
@Squareeyes23 Yeah, or they haven't read any of his stuff at all
@craigtindale1 My thoughts exactly. Well said.
have you listened to him AT ALL!?
Give it time homeboy.
I love CZcams because it's like looking in someone's head. You can peep into their psyche by looking at their channel. I'd have thought any writer or psychologist would find that interesting.
I also think it's entirely fallacious that Self suggests that online friends and 'actual' friends are inversely correlated. He makes that statement with nothing whatsoever to back it up other than wishful thinking.
Don't you know how to do a google search?
small talk ,chit chat.I confess I'm a self absorbed bugger, though.
Will's new words of the week: contingent/contingencies.
perhaps the word brainwashed was a little strong - I suppose what I meant is that Capitalism is very good at simultaneously giving us something that we think we need (creating a demand) whilst ruling out alternative models of commerce and politics. As it happens the internet was not created to be a huge sprawling shopping device which is in part destroying the face-to-face social interchange of commerce but it didn't take long the marketeers to get in on the act...
Algorithms are my friends:-)
I read and listen to will self........that said his argument here asks only for a better algorithm which will better identify his needs.....................like when I could not spell algorithm and searched on google and found algorithm.........it did not offer me better choices.... or it did but i ignored them... and it didnt alert me..........his point here is only a challenge to progremers......or programmers.....or pogramers....or....i need an algorythme..........
Said "contingency" one too many times to come across as truly intellectual.
@brunsk123 Really? In a patronising way? Where did you meet him too?
What a long winded way to say the internet is anonymous
@aman9619 You need to find a new bookshop to go to. The experience of a real conversation with someone that has a history of recommending books and who is themselves a big reader is invaluable.
As far as the big words go, give me smaller, single words that are the equivalent in meaning to each of the big ones you've listed and then you might have a case for disparaging their use.
I think we medicate our sorrows on the internet, but if we realise that the internet's true reason is didactic or to induce creativity it's a good thing. Sometimes technology makes us live outside ourselves and I think it's important to nurture our curiosity by not introducing technology too young. We have a tendency for idealism in youth which is beautiful, but we misconstrue that reality is manufactured. If you examine things critically, you can see the art in everything., You can play God.
he's just annoyed he gets even smaller residuals and royalties from kindle and ebook sales
Chuckle chuckle (the sound of me laughing). Yes, I did kinda feel put on the spot. To be fair, it IS one of the drinks of choice for working class British alcoholics, but my mate likes it (funnily I tend not to drink much). I'd have got a better class of booze, but I was nearly broke.Ironically, her friend was in front of me in the cue with some cans of Tennant's (like, 9% larger) !!!
There is definitely truth to what he his saying. But he misses the underlying purpose of the internet. It's pretty much like saying "Lecturers aren't really your friend". They aren't there to be your friend, they are there to help you learn. Personally I don't have time much like this strange character to go into a store when I could purchase things with a click of a button.
We were miserable fucks long before the Internet came along and no, none of us ever had a profound human interaction in Waterstones.
I don't think he's saying it's profound, just that simple interactions are important for humanity.
You may not have, but I did many times. Not particularly Waterstones, but dozens of second-hand bookshops and market stalls. No-one was trying to deliver filtered 'content' to me.
Waterstones is a cold, clinical bookshop. Like the weatherspoons of bookshops. Its convenient but no character