Joseph Stalin: Waiting For Hitler (Part 2)
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- čas přidán 24. 06. 2018
- Did you miss part one? Listen to part one of the episode here
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Recorded on January 25, 2018.
“If you're interested in power, [if] you're interested in how power is accumulated and exercised, and what the consequences are, the subject of Stalin is just unbelievably deep, it's bottomless.” - Stephen Kotkin
In part two, Stephen Kotkin, author of Stalin: Waiting for Hitler, 1929-1941, discusses the relationship between Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler leading up to and throughout World War II. Kotkin describes what motivated Stalin to make the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Hitler and the consequences of his decision.
Kotkin dives into the history of the USSR and its relationship with Germany during WWII, analyzing the two leaders' decisions, strategies, and thought processes. He explains Stalin's and Hitler’s motivations to enter into the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact even without the support of their respective regimes. Stalin’s goal was to defeat the West and he saw the pact as an opportunity to do so by driving a wedge between Germany and the capitalist West. Kotkin analyzes Stalin’s decisions leading up to the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the disinformation Germany was feeding soviet spies to prevent Stalin from moving against Hitler first.
For the full transcript go to
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Peter Robinson is by far my favorite interviewer of intellectuals. Insightful questions, honest curiosity, and a profound ability to listen. Brilliant
This interview is the internet at its finest. Thank you Hoover Institution.
Agree 100%.
What Professor Kotkin says about Stalin in the last five minutes of this interview goes a long way to explain why Stalin remained so powerful for so many years.
Loved part 1, loved part 2, but the way Kotkin closes the interview is priceless! Great job by Peter Robinson, as usual.
The last part of the conversation on how Stalin handled being a murderous fiend is heart wrenching when you think of the actual people that suffered, not just the statistics and raw numbers but that each person had their own life, taken from them.
He kind of tries to explain it away by saying Stalin was an idealist who thought the ends justified the means, but wouldn't it be more natural to just assume he was nothing more than a psychopath having no empathy for other people? Occam's Razor ...
As much as it’s a terrible time in human history. I find the Russian revolution fascinating. Stephen Kotkin is just the man to supply the knowledge.
Anthony Carpio its supremely important to study the soviet experiment. The elites will definitely try it again.
Terrible time but also extremely optimistic before the data showed us Utopianism is not only unobtainable but always lead too dystopias and mass murder/evil. Take the anarchy experiments under Nestor Makhno or Barcelona or the new societal structural changes of Falangism, It's like the Protestant revolution where they want to create a new world without corruption, superstition and more equitable and just society. Today they want to do the same with identity politics, race based utopianism and universal income, and I'm pretty sure the "Terror" will return once again with these new/old concepts of revolution.
Stalinism and Nazism are important because they are the uber-examples of just how badly wrong human affairs in the modern age can go. Now with many existential forces challenging our society, the potential for that kind of disruption to happen again is real. And just to be clear, I am putting Nazism on the extreme right - which it is - as some conservatives have attempted to force Nazism onto the left in order to demonize the entire left.
The Nazis were even *more* concerned about identity politics than the Stalinists, Earthworm Jim.
I believe you. But find it difficult to understand how many of the soviet folks could, simultaneously, believe the Stalinist phase a necessary consequence of their ideology, while maintaining an optimistic attitude (how did the ends appear attainable?). I'm looking at it through hindsight, I understand. But My first thought when the interviewee mentioned the Stalinist phase as necessary from the standpoint of the Soviet Ideology, was "Reductio? Or its moral analogue? Or maybe they didn't believe that at all?" Perhaps thats the religious aspect of some ideology. Strict adherence, come what may. I understand Stalin was a genius at despotism, but can we really credit the West's beef with Nazism to Stalin's brilliant machinations. I would think Hitler's evil was the strongest factor. I figure it had to be bad to ever consider Stalin a loser of 2 evils. He was certainly center of Soviet Union, but I'm less convinced of his overall centrality in WWII. But I have a very basic understanding of these events.@@yuripantyhose4973
Motivated by a "dream of a better world." Sounds familiar these days...history rhymes.
Fantastic interview
Wow, what an amazing interview. Thank you Dr. Kotkin for your incredible scholarship!
What an amazing interview! Kotkin eloquent description provides so many details without making the interview boring at any point.
Such an incredible interaction. Thank you Hoover, Mr Robinson and most of all the brilliant Stephen Kotkin. What a legend Mr Kotkin is! I'd love to meet him some day.
peter ,just love & appreciate your interviewing skills , you really allow stephen to open up and give us his best .
I don't understand how this didn't cross the minds of these people when talking about the motivations behind the non-aggression pact: if the Soviets didn't take half of Poland, Hitler would've had taken it. Those few hundred kilometers proved to be decisive in the course of the war, considering the germans reached within 100 km from Moskow. It was a necessary buffer space.
That is from a military standpoint. From a communist standpoint, all those lands meant more people that could be turned into communists and one day help advance the revolution.
Kotkin's last remarks made me shiver
Awesome interview. I can't believe I've spent so much time reading books about the Roman empire and WW1, but not enough about Stalin and Hitler.
I am currently studying in Ukraine and have taken my time to dig through the history of the USSR and Stalin to be specific ,the horrors are unimaginable ,indeed his a dictator in his own class
@ 7:10 the fact that u can lift the book is already impressive
stalin was a heartless monster.
Seriously amazing discussion, honestly I could watch hours more on the same topic by these two. The professor is very articulate & has a rich vocabulary
Wish you would've put the author's name in the title. Kotkin is brilliant.
I never understood why England and France didn’t declare war on the USSR (as they did with Germany) when the Soviets invaded Poland from the West???
And, I'm waiting for volume three. Brilliant work. Thank you.
There are a few signs that Stalin was very, very occasionally troubled by the evil things he did. He is known to have gone to confession in an Orthodox Church at least three times after taking power - once in 1938, at the end of the Great Terror, once in 1941, during Barbarossa, and once in 1950, when he was old and sick, and his enemies were circling and waiting for him to die.
Fascinating interview! I can't wait for part 3! Has anyone written such a comprehensive study on Mao and or Pol Pot?
Even better than Part 1! Damn I could watch these two talk for hours.
This story telling could put me to sleep not for being boring (far from it) but it's so interesting that makes your mind travel back in time and watch the events develop right in front of you!! Like in a dream/nightmare!
The way that interview ended: "you will write that the previous question was the last question" that was hilarioussssss. Nothing like a dark gulag, forced confession joke at the end of an excellent interview.
Impatiently waiting for volume 3
Where's volume 3, dammit? Come one, quit Stalin!
Good use of words.
great video, as always!! Informative & interesting.
Stalin's brief war with Finland is something you both missed somehow, this was one of warfare's greatest disasters, the small Finnish army inflicts massive casualties out of all proportion on the attacking Soviets revealing how weak and incompetent the Red army really was, before this the actual strength was somewhat of a mystery to most western observers, now it was all too clear that Stalin's purges had severely weakened the Red army, encouraging Hitler to make his attack ASAP.
The question at 24:00 is perfect. Great interview.
How does this have only 200K views?! Cheers for the enlightening interview, learning about mid 20th century Russia is just fascinating
Fascinating discussion. Can't wait to read all three of Kotkin's volumes.
Such a GREAT sholar and I am halfway through Volume 1 and his writing is just as captivating.
What a brilliant interview! Can not wait to read Stephen's books!
Thanks again, great interview
I love all these interviews. I wish I could have caught this at the Hoover!
I learnt a lot here than when I was in the university. Thanks a lot. I watched part 1 too.
Robinson is the best interviewer out there. Wish there were more like him.
"This guy Stalin," sounds like a introduction to a Mr Rodgers episode. Some anecdote involving an old neighborhood friend.
Be sure to watch part 1 as well. I always wondered why soviet support in Spain was so half hearted, never would have thought it was because of Trotsky.
Learning a lot, thanks Hoover Institution 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼💖💖💖
Incredible interview. I absolutely must read these volumes. I'm also reading Solzhenitsyn as well. What a fascinating period of world history.
Very interesting indeed. Shedding light on great darkness is always a satisfying exercise. Thank you
Wonderful podcast and so informative and interesting.thank you
This guy is all fact! Great interview
I love listening to Kotkin, this is a good interview, but he seems to reach full power when he is able to strut about. Stalin didn't like to sit down either he tells us.
Kotkin should be one of our top American diplomat and a historian. I'd take him over the entire state department
I was waiting for this...
I watched this three times... thanks for the education.
Excellent. Thank you for sharing.
Can I translate and do voice over (narrating) this lecture? I am from USSR so I know the subject and a lot of russian and ukrainian ppl still don't. It's a shame so It would be awesome to translate this vids.
historical author! unbelievably hard task to take on
im surprised he hasn't been taking out yet for deviating from the mainstream theory. alot of this info is readily available which is the great part of the internet
Epic biography at its best, excellent interview, I have about 36 hours left in Vol. II on Audible. Great time to try a free trial of that service in case you are intimidated by the length of the book, I wouldn't have been able to finish Vols I and now II otherwise.
Stalin: Evil power carries no weight, you are permitted to do all, as long as you are an agent of your vision, in this case, "historical necessity."
I love love love this interview. So great. So insightful
There is more to learn from study of Stalin than of Hitler.
Kotkin is knowledgeable.
Fantastic!
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, GET THIS MAN BACK IN THE HOOVER TO CONTINUE!
I want volume 3 so badly. I finished reading volume 2 on June 21st 2018 at five minutes before midnight. :)
Kotkin looks very slim here compared to older talks, hope it's just a new diet and not something else. Excellent talk.
Pul Gasari he must eat to live rather than live to eat lol
Good stuff.
well articulated interview
An empathic historian Stephen Kotkin is.
"They were awe of his power, and I am also. I don't have very much admiration for Stalin in many ways."
Loved it so much.
Hoover Institution: one of the last holdouts of solid Western Education. It is the Minas Tirith of our times. If it falls, all of Gondor and the free world falls.
Wow! Thank you.
Brilliant
I would love to ask Prof. Kotkin what his thoughts about Ivar Smilga are.
Brilliant indeed.
this guy is very knolegeable, very acute and somewhat wise. Really outstanding
Kotkin is that guy.
Wow...the last 5 minutes of what he said
I'm a Kotkin-junkie
He reminds me of Robert Caro
It's amazing this guest naturally has the same voice as the voice from the CZcams Channel Extra Credit. No voice mod required!
Wow!
24:33. This question is the one that has never been satisfactorily answered or explained, including by this latest biography; and hopefully, some day, there may be one.
it's interesting that the Communists affirmed ideals in opposition to imperialism, and yet, they were all in to associate with expansionist policy...
I have seen both the videos and Hitler hasn't appeared yet. For how long are we going to wait for him???
LOVE YOU ❤😍💋THIS IS AMAZING LOVE FROM SWEDEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ❤
Extremely interesting... Kind of makes me want to play Hearts of Iron lol.
No mention of Litvinov and the Popular Front!?!?
has he at all given sources because i can give a large amount to counter most of his arguments
Something doesn't click with the professor's narration. Especially when he repeatedly describes the National Socialists as "capitalists". Maybe Stalin thought that they weren't pure Marxists and that's a given, but to call a National Socialist regime "capitalist" the whole time, is sending the wrong message. I think that the professor is choosing to do in order to portray what was going through in Stalin's mind during that era and not because he necessarily agrees with the terminology because is plainly wrong. Nevertheless I don't know why he keeps on saying this.
In fact the National Socialists (I consciously don't abbreviate the name because I believe that the subsequent abbreviation is a product of communist propaganda in order to distance themselves from nationalist collectivism - which were the national socialists and fascists), were as anti-capitalist as Stalin himself.
They controlled pricing, production, centrally planning all capital allocation (hence their incredible evolution towards being probably the greatest military power qualitatively). In fact there was nothing capitalist in National Socialist Germany as far as I'm concerned. Capitalism = freedom of the markets (which pre-requires freedom of the people). Certain ownership of the means of production by certain individuals doesn't make it a capitalism system. If so, Lenin's "New Economic Policy" was equally capitalist which was certainly not!
P.S. To add some colour to the narration, I'd like to add that the Soviets were developing/building battle tanks along with the Germans, on Russian soil (in Kursk if I recall well), up to the point when Hitler came into power. They were thus defiant of the treaty of Versailles that had forbidden Germany's re-armament. Hitler pulled out of this scheme as soon as he took power, showing his mistrust. At that point the two battle tank fleets started to divert, otherwise Germans and Russians, during WW2, had the best tank technology, far ahead of the rest of WW2 participants. The Germans more than the Soviets (since they had some years developing their own versions).
Lastly here are some anti-capitalist/pro-socialist theses of the National Socialists of Germany:
- "Lenin is the greatest man, second only to Hitler", and that the difference between Communism and the Hitler faith is very slight.
As quoted in The New York Times, “Hitlerite Riot in Berlin: Beer Glasses Fly When Speaker Compares Hitler to Lenin,” November 28, 1925 (Goebbels' speech Nov. 27, 1925)
- "...we can see the commencement of our own national and socialist survival in an alliance with a truly national and socialist Russia."
National Socialist Letters (NS-Briefe), Nov 15, 1925
- "Capitalism is the immoral distribution of capital… Germany will become free at that moment when the thirty millions on the left and the thirty millions on the right make common cause. Only one movement is capable of doing this: National Socialism, embodied in one Führer - Adolf Hitler."
Goebbels’ “Lenin or Hitler” speech first delivered on September 17, 1925
- "The money pigs of capitalist democracy… Money has made slaves of us… Money is the curse of mankind. It smothers the seed of everything great and good. Every penny is sticky with sweat and blood."
Quoted in The Nazi Party 1919-1945: A Complete History, Dietrich Orlow, New York: NY, Enigma Books, 2012, p 61. Goebbels’ article, “Nationalsozialisten aus Berlin und aus dem Reich”, Voelkischer Beobachter, Feb. 4, 1927
- "One class has fulfilled its historical mission and is about to yield to another. The bourgeoisie has to yield to the working class ... Whatever is about to fall should be pushed. We are all soldiers of the revolution. We want the workers' victory over filthy lucre. That is socialism."
Quoted in Doctor Goebbels: His Life and Death, Roger Manvell, Heinrich Fraenkel, New York, NY, Skyhorse Publishing, 2010 p. 25, conversation with Hertha Holk
- "The social is a stopgap. Socialism is the ideology of the future."
Open Letter to Ernst Graf zu Reventlow in the Völkische Freiheit, 1925, as quoted in Goebbels: A Biography, Peter Longerich, Random House, 2015, p. 55
- "The political bourgeoisie is about to leave the stage of history. In its place advance the oppressed producers of the head and hand, the forces of Labor (Arbeitertum), to being their historical mission."
“Warum sind wir Sozialisten,” Der Angriff editorial, July 16, 1928, reprinted in Der Angriff, Munich 1935, p. 223. David Schoenbaum, Hitler's Social Revolution: Class and Status in Nazi Germany, 1933-1939, W.W. Norton & Company (1997) p. 25
- "We are not a charitable institution but a Party of revolutionary socialists."
“Einbeitsfront,” Der Angriff editorial, May 27, 1929. David Schoenbaum, Hitler's Social Revolution: Class and Status in Nazi Germany, 1933-1939, W.W. Norton & Company (1997) p. 25
- "[T]he NSDAP is the German Left. We despise bourgeois nationalism."
Der Angriff, (Dec. 6, 1931) written by Goebbels. Der Angriff (The Attack) was the official newspaper of the Nazi-Sozi party in Berlin.
- "The people's community must not be a mere phrase, but a revolutionary achievement following from the radical carrying out of the basic life needs of the working class. A ruthless battle against corruption! A war against exploitation, freedom for the workers! The elimination of all economic-capitalist influences on national policy. Maintaining a rotten economic system has nothing to do with nationalism, which is an affirmation of the Fatherland."
Written by Joseph Goebbels and Mjölnir, Die verfluchten Hakenkreuzler. Etwas zum Nachdenken (Munich: Verlag Frz. Eher (1932). “Those Damned Nazis,” (Nazi propaganda pamphlet).
- "The worker in a capitalist state-and that is his deepest misfortune-is no longer a living human being, a creator, a maker. He has become a machine. A number, a cog in the machine without sense or understanding. He is alienated from what he produces.”
Written by Joseph Goebbels and Mjölnir, Die verfluchten Hakenkreuzler. Etwas zum Nachdenken (Munich: Verlag Frz. Eher, 1932).Translated as “Those Damned Nazis,” (propaganda pamphlet).
- "We are against the political bourgeoisie, and for genuine nationalism! We are against Marxism, but for true socialism! We are for the first German national state of a socialist nature! We are for the National Socialist German Workers’ Party!"
Written by Joseph Goebbels and Mjölnir, Die verfluchten Hakenkreuzler. Etwas zum Nachdenken (Munich: Verlag Frz. Eher, 1932). Translated as “Those Damned Nazis,” (propaganda pamphlet).
- (THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT as it explains why the National Socialists were against the communists - basically for nationalistic reasons) "International communism would entirely do away with all national and racial qualities which are founded in human nature itself; in property it sees the most primary cause of the break-down of world trade in the capitalist system. Accordingly it exploits this through an extensive and carefully organised and brutal system of action, setting aside personal values and sacrificing the individual to a hollow mass-idol that is only a travesty of actual life itself. At the same time it ignores and destroys all the idealistic and higher strivings of men and nations, through its own crass and empty materialist principles. On the other hand, National Socialism sees in all these things-in property, in personal values and in nation and race and the principles of idealism-these forces which carry on every human civilisation and fundamentally determine its worth."
Speech at the Nazi party Congress at Nuremberg (September 1935)
And one last from Goebbels's diary (It's highly improbable that he would have been lying to himself in there):
- ". . . it would be better for us to go down with Bolshevism than live in eternal slavery under capitalism.
The Devil’s Disciples: Hitler’s Inner Circle by Anthony Read (2004) p. 142, diary entry Oct. 23, 1925"
Thank you for this comment!
goosebumps.
Stephen Kotkin sounds like Joe Pesci. Now I can’t unhear it.
Where is part 1
The Respawn czcams.com/video/jhi2icRXbHo/video.html
The Treaty of Versailles harsh? Who forced Imperial Germany to invade Belgium? To get an idea of the Germans' war aims in WW1, look up the September Memorandum.
Bob Redman
They had also invaded France before within living memory in the 1870s.
Why didn't England and France declare war on the Soviet Union as they did against Germany? Why Germany, not Soviet Union?
Because the world at the time just came out of the worst conflict in the history of humanity.
Absolutely incredible vision of a human being who fell victim to anti human principles and theology: the true anti Christ. Dr Kotkin has given us an incredible view of one of the horns of the beast of the sea and beast of the earth described in Revelation 13 and 18. Thank you.
March 2021 and still no 3rd book. I wonder if sales of the first two didn't meet expectations. That would be a shame.
We know Dunkirk was a retreat. The victory was in saving our troops.
Wow
Information versus disinformation. Information implanted, implied, whispered, countered, etc., based upon the intended target's psychology. So, so interesting.
Molotov lived until 1986? Holy cow
Perhaps Molotov wanted his wife sent to Siberia. Cheaper than a divorce. That's why he remained loyal to Stalin.
Hitler and Stalin.
Both children of Versailles.
In August 1939, they set about to rectify what they considered to be "wrong borders".
The Non-Aggression Pact a marriage of convenience.
Must have been a weird honeymoon...