This video will introduce you to the tooling ball and show a few other methods for accurately picking up locations on fixtures, parts, and slanted surfaces. This one is worth a look.
2 year CNC machinist program at the local community college, and the term 'tooling ball' was never mentioned once. I'm already replaying past indicating problems in my head and realizing how much simpler they would have been with that little fundamental trick in my toolbox. Thanks, Joe
Very good explanation, Joe. Thanks! Had a bad experience once when I designed a plastic injection mold using a tooling hole for alignment. Night shift "machinist" didn't understand tooling holes or tooling balls so he just obliterated the dimensions from drawing (CAD) and did NOT drill the holes in mold plates as drawn. Absolute nightmare to get mold parts to align correctly, but I did a country boy fix and saved the mold. Transfer punches saved the day!
Early into my pursuit to learn to machine one of the books I was reading briefly mentioned a tooling ball but never went into their purpose or how to use one. It even described how to make one. Enter Joe Pi some 20yrs later... not only do I know what it's for and how to use one I HAVE to have one. Bonus! I learned what the pointy end of the indicator is for.
Thanks, very interesting and useful. For what it is worth, I use the conical end of my centre-finder differently. With the milling machine OFF, I gently lower the conical centre-finder into the drilled hole I want to centre on. The cone-ended section will then kick-sideways to self-centre in the hole, thereby creating a lateral offset with the main cylindrical body of the centre-finder. Then I iteratively move the stage until the cylindrical sections line up in both x and y. Fingertips are very sensitive, and will detect even the tiniest of offset ridge between the two cylinders. It's a surprisingly accurate technique. For even greater accuracy, use a micrometer across the split in the cylinder of the edge-finder. When it matches the diameter of the edge finder barrel all the way around you're there.
And here I was thinking those were the things your gas shocks on your hatch back clipped onto :-o Thanks for the knowledge. There are so many tools out there that without people like you sharing, I'd never even know about them.
So informative Joe, but an essential piece of knowledge . I'm one of those who admitted that I didn't know what a tooling ball was, I wonder how many else there were among your followers who didn't either! You seemed very surprised at the numbers of us that did comment who didn't know. Great video, you're such a bloody good teacher! Greetings from the UK. And have a great Christmas and New Year.
Great topic and explanation Joe. Ref Wiggler or "Sticky Pin" (plasticine with a needle), back of the thumb nail was my instruction as an apprentice in 1970's. We used to complain when the draft person missed a tooling hole/feature. We used to call them "Hicky Balls" for some reason. Best regards from the UK.
Nice Joe! I have always just rested the back of my thumbnail directly against the side of the tip of the wiggler. I plant the left edge of my right thumb on the workpiece and bring the tip down to about mid nail. This allow very precise control by rolling your thumb in until the tip stops tapping and runs concentric. I have my left hand surrounding the shaft above the tip to catch it if I overshoot and it wants to whip out. ATB, Robin
I just saw "tooling balls" listed on a local company liquidation auction coming up and had no idea what they were. I am going to bid on them thanks to your educational video.
Joe, thank you very much. I had no knowledge of tooling balls, and now I know their value. I have numerous types of metric instruments, but no needle type edge finder, though I now know it's value. As always, I'm never disappointed; time well spent.
Tony Tammer, machine shop teacher, California. I learned about tooling balls at Lawrence Berkeley Lab in the 1980's. I had to drill holes at a 15 degree angle to the surface of a part, at one inch +/- .002 from the edge. How to do this? Locate the hole vertically with an edge finder. Drill and ream a hole for the stem of a tooling ball. Tilt the head to 15 degrees, dial in the tooling ball, last step: raise the table up the reference difference from the center of the ball to the surface of the part, and you are ready to put in the hole, first with an end mill to get a surface roughly perpendicular to the drill , then centerdrill, and finally drill and ream the hole. If you can't drill that vertical hole in the part, use a tooling ball without a stem. Machine up a tube with an I.D. slightly smaller than the ball diameter, and chamfer the I.D. edge. Locate the center of the hole vertically (with the head vertical) with an edge finder. Then take out the edge finder, put in the tube, and use it on top of the ball, to press the shoulder of the ball lightly against the part (using the tube to align the ball). Then wick some crazy glue between the shoulder and the part to stick the ball down, and follow the steps in the first paragraph. Tap the ball off the part and you are ready to follow the steps in the first paragraph. No trig or math needed, and you will be very close, the error being the thickness of the crazy glue.
Thank you for this very informative video. I have used a tooling hole in a very simple fixture. Still use that fixture, works great every time. The tooling hole is actually the work offset in my program. As for the tooling ball, I had no clue. Now, I can see how they could be a great thing to have.
Thank you so much Joe. Great job educating us on something I personally knew nothing about and had I ever needed to do what you demonstrated I would have been lost. Now thanks to you I will be equipped to make an attempt at it.
Excellent come back Joe on describing tooling balls. Must say I love your tangents. These always add spice to your cooking. I have used the edge finder to pick you prick punched holes but never thought about scribe line.
You know how you feel when you want to ask the question on how something works or how to use a tool, but you don't want to look like a newbie, thanks for that lesson in machine shop technique.
I was always the guy in class that would raise my hand and ask a dozen questions. I believed if I couldn't walk out of class and explain it to someone else, then I didn't pay attention.
Tooling balls are also used in automated or robotic systems to achieve the accurate positioning of something (e.g., a test sample, a bio-tray (tray with a bunch of small indents to drop one drop of liquid in for growing biological samples)) without requiring high accuracy of the robotic arm or automated transport device. Take a flat plate. Build a nest on top to hold the bio-tray or whatever. Mill a conic section into the bottom of the plate, apex up (a cone with the top lopped off so it is easy to mill). Mill a slot with 45º sides, apex up (a flat bottomed slot with sloping sides) on the bottom of the plate. Mill a spot flat on the bottom of the plate. Permanently mount three tooling balls on the test fixture holder, in a triangle, in very accurate positions. Now when you drop the test plate on the balls, plus or minus .125" or so, the cone will center on one ball defining a point, the grove will slide onto a second ball defining a line, and the flat will sit on the third ball defining another point. If you layout the positions of the three balls and the pattern on the bottom of the test plate so the line along the grove and a line through the two points are parallel you have a plane . This allows you to position the test plate with high accuracy using a positioning device with low accuracy. The further the three balls are apart, within reason, the more accuracy at the test site versus the milling accuracy. If I knew how to add a picture to these comments, I would, but I don't.
Enjoyed, very interesting - Never needed a tooling ball so far, but for sure handy to know/have. Tooling holes are something I started very early to put into my fixtures at work. I usualy model the fixture and the part up in Cad/Cam and use the Tooling hole as my X/Y/Z zero for machining the fixture itself (if possible) and to machine the part in the fixture. So I have only to keep the cad/cam file around and dont get problems with offsets that I forget to write down/document ;)
Another useful and interesting tip video. I love fixtures and setups, even though I have never had to manufacture a quantity of anything. The problems that need solving are very interesting puzzles.
I just learned what a tooling ball was and what it is used for and you and some of the commenters answered the question I have had for years on what the pointed end of the edge finder is used for other than dropping it and bending it to destroy a good tool. You are a great teacher!!!
Enjoy it very much would have liked to have learned these tips when I was an apprentice machinist now retired could still look over your shoulder all day absorbing knowledge.
Very interesting stuff, as always. Im just a hobby guy, but ive never even heard of tooling balls, but instantly can think of 1,000 uses for them, thanks for planting the seed!!
joe i have learned so much from you i was one of the kids 35 years ago that did not get algebra or trig and thought i would never use it but now as a hobby machinist its a everyday need would it be possible for you to do a video series i mean really in depth on basic trig but show each example you teach as what you would use it for in a machining situation i dont care if the videos are an hour long it would be a great learning implement for us novices and we could have it to refer to from time to time if i had a teacher like yourself when i was in school i would have gotten the trig and algebra then but our teacher just taught and had ni=o idea what you actually use the trig for
... yeah, and figuring it out now is just as painful as you remember. PTSD seems to be a common thing with us. I managed to get dovetail measuring figured out when I needed it, but not without earning a migraine and explosive diarrhea ... plus two emergency naps to get my brain out of lockup (reboot, Reboot, REBOOT!) Now I hope that the notes I made in my little black book are enough to help me remember the next time I need it. On the other hand, when it came to learning how to work fractions, I had a much easier time with that than my classmates did. Probably because I could easily visualize it.
@@infoanorexic Re fractions yep! I'm the only one any of my friends know that convert decimals to fractions in my head, work the fractions , and then convert it back to a decimal. Usually i can do it faster than they can fire up their phone calculator
I'm sure most machinists ponder the purpose of the pointy end of the edge finder. I use it to align the spindle with small holes: with the mill off I pull the quill down until the cone seats perfectly in the hole, then it's a matter of moving the table until a thumbnail doesn't catch on any of the sides of the edge finder. I don't know if that is its intended purpose, but that's what I do with it. And my own preference is to use a Sharpie to center wigglers. It's so cool when you can feel it suddenly lock in on the perfect axis of rotation. Wigglers and edge finders are amazing in their simplicity.
Great video (as allways) Joe. I was just trying to explain the usage of tooling balls to someone online and I will share a link to this video. Covers the basics perfectly. Also a hreat tip for protecting the tip of the wiggler. It won't work for some wigglers though. My Starrett No. 828 wiggler has a screw to adjust load on the ball end at the back (top) of the assembly. BUT it is designed to so that one can unscrew the collar and reverse the wiggler end so it is held inside.
Mr. Joe, Thank you for doing this video!! A coworker very vaguely described the use of tooling balls to me several years ago and since then I have asked several folks about them and no one really seemed to be able to describe in detail their intended use. It is something I have never used but as I think back I can think of multiple times where it wouldve been the best option. Also, while I am commenting, the rotary table videos were awesome too. Thanks for all the help youve given over the last few years. Keith Smith Belton, SC
As I have said before Joe , you should open up a school. You could fill the class room real fast just read the comments. It's amazing of how many of us learn so much from just your videos. I will also say it again it's a shame that it's not more teachers in the schools that can make learning as interesting and simple as you.
Excellent video. I might add that the tooling ball allows you to pickup the fixture when it is rotated in several axes. It's usually beneficial to have a couple different styles on hand to match the particular variation called out on the blueprint. If, for some reason you find yourself setting up on two angles, or an angle while rotating the workpiece , you will find yourself slipping down the rabbit hole known as compound angles. Instead of merely calculating sides of a triangle, you may find yourself looking for base angles, angles of inclination and/ or angles of rotation of a pyramid. That topic is worthy of at least a full semester (or more ) at college . Keep up the good work.
Joe - using the ball for finding center was already understood , but never realized the long shoulder one measured down to the shoulder. Thanks for the great video.
Tooling balls are also great for construction as well as inspection. Especially if you have multiple angles and or radii. They can all be located via the tooling ball and it allows for easy inspection. We often use a sine bar or plate and height gauge to inspect for proper location. Just thought I'd throw that in as a side note. Another great video that I am sure many viewers will find value in at the machine or surface plate.
I guess I didn't know what a tooling ball was... I thought you were talking about the small balls like at the end of an indicator, which I guess are basically used for similar processes... Also, I've seen wigglers used, but usually only for touching off edges to find center, never for pin pointing... Awesome, always learn so much watching you...
I have a wiggler set with the pointer, and edge finding ball, edge finding cylinder and a dial test indicator holder. Cost me a whole £5.95. Good tips, many thanks.
Very cool setup tool - I had never heard of them until you mentioned them the other day. Just wondering if you've heard of them being made in-house in either home or commercial shops versus buying commercially - at 35 to 75 bucks a crack it adds up . . . Thank you for sharing your experience!
I would like to donate to the cause. Alot of so called schools charge big bucks for mediocre education. I think your videos are priceless valuable knowledge. I know it may seem presumptuous but you should set up a Patreon page. So some of us can thank you with a voluntary donation. You may or may not need or want it but i would assume that the better off you are the longer the videos will continue. Nothing is FREE including time. Anyway thanks again.
Thank you for the thought. All the links to donation or support resources are posted in the description below this video czcams.com/video/eSeYUxV1A4Y/video.html
We had an ever-expanding collection of part-specific soft jaws and fixtures. Each had a fixture reference feature(s), the reference offset numbers, and the part number machined into it. The jaw pairs both had the part number in case they got separated. The data files (CAD, CAM, G-Code) were all named with the fixture part number. If you picked up a pair of jaws and didn't know what they were for it was a straight forward exercise to find the associated file. At least with CAM / CNC, adding the text was a trivial additional step. The other take-away: create a part numbering scheme EARLY and apply it to everything you create.
One, I have both the double ended edge finder and wiggler. Edge finder recommended RPM as per Brown & Sharp 750 to 1000 max. I see people use them at 2400 plus RPM and can’t figure out why they have to keep buying new ones🙄 Wiggler is a Starrett is 250 to 400 RPM as per told by the retiree that gifted it to me 15 years ago. Tooling balls I beg for them but companies don’t want to buy them.
Another great video. Thanks. Your presentation is well prepared. The explanation is very clear. You are probably the best presenter on You tube for machining content. My comments apply to all your other videos, as well, except for the damn spider. Other than that, keep your fingers away from the rotating wiggler. Use a scale or other object to get it to run true. If you are only touching one side of the needle it can go from dead true to a flycutter faster than you can say ,"OH CRAP".
I use tooling balls with the renishaw probes ALL the time. Our older Horizontal 4 axis machines don’t keep track of relative positions like our newer 5X mills. They are a great way to quickly check your setup. I always make some fine adjustments to my offsets using real outcomes from the machining and measuring. Sometimes I can see that it needs to move a couple grand in one way or another. But there is always the CMM in the quality room or even better Faro arm to wheel out to the shop to get dead nuts. I love my tooling ball, but you can also machine tipped surfaces planar to your rotations into the fixture too.
That's what i thought they were for, it's really funny how we are all guilty of never using the pointed side of the edge finder, just looking at it and pondering what it could be for
There are numerous ways to establish zero on the part. It all depends on the situation. Some times a couple Sharpie lines works, sometimes you need to use a Tool Makers Chair or Corner Block. Sometimes you need a Centering Scope. Just like sometimes you can do your moves by the dial. Sometimes the afore mentioned precision scale and optics. And sometimes you need precision length standards as used to be used jig bores and grinders. My favorite all time device for finding edges is a 3D Tester. It's one of those fancy indicators that when you bring it up to the part and bring the needle to zero the spindle centerline is lined up to the edge. Now do the other axis. Bang your done. Two minutes tops. Usually more like one. Another trick i've used is to simply place a .500 dowel in the spindle bring it down below the top of the work. Bump the stock up against it and set the DRO to -.250. This works really well if yo are changing from one set-up to another and your other axis is not changing it's zero.
Wigglers are great additions to a tool box. A trick I was taught by an old machinist many years ago was to stick a sewing pin in a blob of BluTac (TacK-It, Adhesive Putty, etc). Straighten it against your finger and it will ce centred on the spindle centre line.. Cheaper than a wiggler and won't demage fingers too. It can even be stuck on the tool tip if you have the height.
The pointed end of a edge finder can be used to find the center of very small holes or narrow slots. Lower point partially into hole, touch up on one side then the other side, and split the difference. Don't change the height of the spindle between readings.
I had a friend mention using the conical end of edge finder to pick up rounds where the conventional method doesn't work. You'd have to have a constant z-height, but it's the one thing that makes the most sense to me where you're not trying to eyeball something. (Not that eyeballing can't be accurate)
Thanks Joe. You are amazing. I really appreciate your common sense basic way of solving problems. I have learned alot from your videos! p.s. I can hardly wait for the rest of your cannon build...
Great presentation as always. I'm wondering why a pointed wiggler would be used to pick up a scribe line versus just chucking up a precision ground pointed pin. I've had a wiggler like the one you showed but never figured out why you would go to the trouble of trying to center it by hand to use it like a pointer - have I missed something here? I've usd an edge finder a million times but never the pointer. Great safety tip on that by the way. Please don't quit making these videos - I love them - they make me think.
@@joepie221 I used to true up my wiggler the same way you do in this video. Until I found that using my scale, drill rod, brass rod,or anything other than my fingers as I find it faster with less friction. I've been Machining for 40+ years in job shops and still learning. I enjoy your videos.their like talking shop over break time or lunch.
Sounds like you are due for some repairs on the mill. A little noisy. Would drive me lock up the shop and go home. LoL another great video. Always a pleasure 😊
There is a guy on here - his channel is Clickspring. He uses the end of a pencil to centre his wiggler (That would all sound seriously weird to a non engineer!). Another great video - keep em coming.
Thanks, Joe -- always wondered how one uses a tooling ball. Been bit by the wiggler -- just use a pencil or 6" Delrin rod on the on the side down near the tip, a light pressure will cause it to easily run true. Push too hard, it will over center, helicopter and potentially attack ya.
The cone end of the edge finder can also be used to find the center of a hole provided the hole is smaller than the largest diameter of the cone. Put the edge finder in the chuck and then place the cone in the hole. Move the X and Y axis until you can feel that the cone is precisely aligned with the body of the edge finder. Your sense of touch is good to the micron range which means you can find the center of the hole extremely accurately.
Great video Joe! Learning a lot from your videos. I have to say the entire cnc community as a whole is absolutely fantastic for sharing years of experience and knowledge, I've only been using a Tormach 770m cnc for a couple of months (fusion360 driven) and I have to say "I'm luvin it" lol my 3d printer is so dusty hahahahaaa... I haven't programmed the machine much directly but im learning day by day, thanks ;-)
I have known about them but never needed to use it. I wasn't sure how they were used exactly. I guess it's time to get a pair of balls. Thanks for the info.
Properly used they're used in sets of 3 as "legs" in a "tripod" layout on/under "parts" that need to be "self-leveling" when FINISHED and they"ll be PART OF THE ORIGINAL DESIGN. Who in the fuck is going to add "tooling holes" and/or "tooling balls" to a "job" and after and because they can't "set up" the "job" right with a fucking "CNC" machine? The same "machinists" with all the tips, tricks, answers and solutions to "problems" real professional machinists/shops either don't have or "solve" themselves because they sure as fuck don't have the time and/or ability and/or helplessness to run to CZcams in their typically "swamped" machine shops where 90% of "jobs" are customer carry-in REPAIR AND/OR REBUILD WORK AND ITS ONLY "BIG" MACHINE SHOPS THAT ARE "ONE-STOP SHOPS" FOR 'ENGINEERING" AND "DESIGN" AND ACTUAL "MANUFACTURING" OF "MACHINES" RATHER THAN "PARTS" AND DO WELDING/FABRICATION AND THE "BREAD AND BUTTER" CARRY-IN REPAIR/REBUILD WORK THAT "PAYS THE BILLS" WITH CONSTANT, STEADY YEAR-ROUND CASH FLOW FROM EVERYTHING FROM "ENGINE WORK" TO MAKING/REPAIRING/MODIFYING FARM/CONSTRUCTION/FORESTRY/MARINE/RAILROAD/MINING/TRUCK/AUTOMOTIVE PARTS PRIMARILY FOR DEALERSHIP SERVICE DEPARTMENTS, REPAIR SHOPS AND COMPANIES/INDIVIDUALS IN THOSE BUSINESSES THAT "DO THEIR OWN REPAIRS" AND ARE REPEAT CUSTOMERS THAT EVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT "SET-UP COSTS" AND/OR "PRODUCTION WORK" AND THEY DAMNED SURE AREN'T SITTING IN THEIR 'EMPTY" MACHINE SHOPS WATCHING OR MAKING "HOW-TO" VIDEOS PLAYING "MACHINIST" ONLINE BECAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO "JOBS" TO DO THAT CAN'T WAIT UNTIL THEY MAKE OR WATCH ANOTHER "HOW-TO" VIDEO. ONLY "MACHINISTS" WHO HAVE NEVER WORKED A DAY OF THEIR "CAREERS" IN A REAL "JOB SHOP" WORTH A TIN SHIT AND HAVE NO CLUE THAT EVEN "AVERAGE" OR "NEW" MACHINISTS/SHOPS READY, WILLING AND ABLE TO FIND AND DO "WORK" RATHER THAN "JOBS" EVER HVE ENOUGH "FREE TIME" AT WORK OR SPEND A SECOND AT WORK THEY DON'T HAVE TO ON "THEIR TIME" UNLESS ITS TO WORK ON THEIR OWN "JOBS" WOULD BE CLUELESS ENOUGH TO MAKE AND WATCH "HOW-TO" VIDEOS AS SUPPOSED "PROFESSIONALS" WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN THAT AND WITHOUT CUSTOMER ONE EVER "INTERRUPTING" THEIR "FREE TIME" AT "WORK" WHERE APPARENTLY THEY NEED TO MAKE OR WATCH "HOW-TO" VIDEOS JUST TO "GET BY" IN THEIR "PROFESSION" AND STAY IN "BUSINESS".
2 year CNC machinist program at the local community college, and the term 'tooling ball' was never mentioned once. I'm already replaying past indicating problems in my head and realizing how much simpler they would have been with that little fundamental trick in my toolbox. Thanks, Joe
Very good explanation, Joe. Thanks! Had a bad experience once when I designed a plastic injection mold using a tooling hole for alignment. Night shift "machinist" didn't understand tooling holes or tooling balls so he just obliterated the dimensions from drawing (CAD) and did NOT drill the holes in mold plates as drawn. Absolute nightmare to get mold parts to align correctly, but I did a country boy fix and saved the mold. Transfer punches saved the day!
Early into my pursuit to learn to machine one of the books I was reading briefly mentioned a tooling ball but never went into their purpose or how to use one. It even described how to make one. Enter Joe Pi some 20yrs later... not only do I know what it's for and how to use one I HAVE to have one.
Bonus! I learned what the pointy end of the indicator is for.
Thanks, very interesting and useful.
For what it is worth, I use the conical end of my centre-finder differently. With the milling machine OFF, I gently lower the conical centre-finder into the drilled hole I want to centre on. The cone-ended section will then kick-sideways to self-centre in the hole, thereby creating a lateral offset with the main cylindrical body of the centre-finder. Then I iteratively move the stage until the cylindrical sections line up in both x and y. Fingertips are very sensitive, and will detect even the tiniest of offset ridge between the two cylinders. It's a surprisingly accurate technique.
For even greater accuracy, use a micrometer across the split in the cylinder of the edge-finder. When it matches the diameter of the edge finder barrel all the way around you're there.
And here I was thinking those were the things your gas shocks on your hatch back clipped onto :-o Thanks for the knowledge. There are so many tools out there that without people like you sharing, I'd never even know about them.
thanks, I was trying to think where I'd seen something like that before, was driving me nuts....gas struts!
So informative Joe, but an essential piece of knowledge . I'm one of those who admitted that I didn't know what a tooling ball was, I wonder how many else there were among your followers who didn't either! You seemed very surprised at the numbers of us that did comment who didn't know. Great video, you're such a bloody good teacher! Greetings from the UK. And have a great Christmas and New Year.
Great topic and explanation Joe.
Ref Wiggler or "Sticky Pin" (plasticine with a needle), back of the thumb nail was my instruction as an apprentice in 1970's. We used to complain when the draft person missed a tooling hole/feature. We used to call them "Hicky Balls" for some reason.
Best regards from the UK.
Nice Joe! I have always just rested the back of my thumbnail directly against the side of the tip of the wiggler. I plant the left edge of my right thumb on the workpiece and bring the tip down to about mid nail. This allow very precise control by rolling your thumb in until the tip stops tapping and runs concentric. I have my left hand surrounding the shaft above the tip to catch it if I overshoot and it wants to whip out.
ATB, Robin
I was watching some of your old videos I love how you tell how &why to do things straight and to the point!!!! keep on keeping on !!
Great explanation on how to precisely indicate a position on a part.
Thanks for sharing with us.
The tip was as good as the video tutorial!
Thanks for posting great toolmaker's knowledge.
I just saw "tooling balls" listed on a local company liquidation auction coming up and had no idea what they were. I am going to bid on them thanks to your educational video.
Another great video filled with helpful information. I had heard of "toolmakers buttons," but hadn't seen the tooling balls in action. Thanks!
Joe, thank you very much. I had no knowledge of tooling balls, and now I know their value. I have numerous types of metric instruments, but no needle type edge finder, though I now know it's value. As always, I'm never disappointed; time well spent.
Tony Tammer, machine shop teacher, California.
I learned about tooling balls at Lawrence Berkeley Lab in the 1980's. I had to drill holes at a 15 degree angle to the surface of a part, at one inch +/- .002 from the edge. How to do this? Locate the hole vertically with an edge finder. Drill and ream a hole for the stem of a tooling ball. Tilt the head to 15 degrees, dial in the tooling ball, last step: raise the table up the reference difference from the center of the ball to the surface of the part, and you are ready to put in the hole, first with an end mill to get a surface roughly perpendicular to the drill , then centerdrill, and finally drill and ream the hole.
If you can't drill that vertical hole in the part, use a tooling ball without a stem. Machine up a tube with an I.D. slightly smaller than the ball diameter, and chamfer the I.D. edge. Locate the center of the hole vertically (with the head vertical) with an edge finder. Then take out the edge finder, put in the tube, and use it on top of the ball, to press the shoulder of the ball lightly against the part (using the tube to align the ball). Then wick some crazy glue between the shoulder and the part to stick the ball down, and follow the steps in the first paragraph. Tap the ball off the part and you are ready to follow the steps in the first paragraph. No trig or math needed, and you will be very close, the error being the thickness of the crazy glue.
check out the program at deanza college
This video shows why you’re my go-to guy for work holding. Thanks for the demonstration.
Thank you for this very informative video. I have used a tooling hole in a very simple fixture. Still use that fixture, works great every time. The tooling hole is actually the work offset in my program.
As for the tooling ball, I had no clue. Now, I can see how they could be a great thing to have.
Thank you once again Master Joe! You never disappoint.
Enjoyed, very informative, will watch this one whenever a refresher is needed. Thanks!
A sincere thanks for another great machine shop 101.
So simple, so slick, and so cool !....I liked the last part you said at the mill...."Keep the dust off it." Good advice for everyone.
Thank you so much Joe.
Great job educating us on something I personally knew nothing about and had I ever needed to do what you demonstrated I would have been lost. Now thanks to you I will be equipped to make an attempt at it.
Great info. and and excellent demonstration - as always. Thanks for taking the time to make these videos.
Excellent come back Joe on describing tooling balls. Must say I love your tangents. These always add spice to your cooking. I have used the edge finder to pick you prick punched holes but never thought about scribe line.
You know how you feel when you want to ask the question on how something works or how to use a tool, but you don't want to look like a newbie, thanks for that lesson in machine shop technique.
I was always the guy in class that would raise my hand and ask a dozen questions. I believed if I couldn't walk out of class and explain it to someone else, then I didn't pay attention.
Another great explanation/lesson from Joe Pi!
Tooling balls are also used in automated or robotic systems to achieve the accurate positioning of something (e.g., a test sample, a bio-tray (tray with a bunch of small indents to drop one drop of liquid in for growing biological samples)) without requiring high accuracy of the robotic arm or automated transport device. Take a flat plate. Build a nest on top to hold the bio-tray or whatever. Mill a conic section into the bottom of the plate, apex up (a cone with the top lopped off so it is easy to mill). Mill a slot with 45º sides, apex up (a flat bottomed slot with sloping sides) on the bottom of the plate. Mill a spot flat on the bottom of the plate. Permanently mount three tooling balls on the test fixture holder, in a triangle, in very accurate positions. Now when you drop the test plate on the balls, plus or minus .125" or so, the cone will center on one ball defining a point, the grove will slide onto a second ball defining a line, and the flat will sit on the third ball defining another point. If you layout the positions of the three balls and the pattern on the bottom of the test plate so the line along the grove and a line through the two points are parallel you have a plane . This allows you to position the test plate with high accuracy using a positioning device with low accuracy. The further the three balls are apart, within reason, the more accuracy at the test site versus the milling accuracy.
If I knew how to add a picture to these comments, I would, but I don't.
Enjoyed, very interesting - Never needed a tooling ball so far, but for sure handy to know/have.
Tooling holes are something I started very early to put into my fixtures at work.
I usualy model the fixture and the part up in Cad/Cam and use the Tooling hole as my X/Y/Z zero for machining the fixture itself (if possible) and to machine the part in the fixture. So I have only to keep the cad/cam file around and dont get problems with offsets that I forget to write down/document ;)
Useful! Another tip: spray clear lacquer etc over sharpie markings to make them more shop-permanent.
as always sir an excellent informative video that will help many...thank you.
Another useful and interesting tip video. I love fixtures and setups, even though I have never had to manufacture a quantity of anything. The problems that need solving are very interesting puzzles.
I just learned what a tooling ball was and what it is used for and you and some of the commenters answered the question I have had for years on what the pointed end of the edge finder is used for other than dropping it and bending it to destroy a good tool. You are a great teacher!!!
Enjoy it very much would have liked to have learned these tips when I was an apprentice machinist now retired could still look over your shoulder all day absorbing knowledge.
Very interesting stuff, as always. Im just a hobby guy, but ive never even heard of tooling balls, but instantly can think of 1,000 uses for them, thanks for planting the seed!!
As others have said, thanks Joe for the lesson, something else learned today.
joe i have learned so much from you i was one of the kids 35 years ago that did not get algebra or trig and thought i would never use it but now as a hobby machinist its a everyday need would it be possible for you to do a video series i mean really in depth on basic trig but show each example you teach as what you would use it for in a machining situation i dont care if the videos are an hour long it would be a great learning implement for us novices and we could have it to refer to from time to time if i had a teacher like yourself when i was in school i would have gotten the trig and algebra then but our teacher just taught and had ni=o idea what you actually use the trig for
... yeah, and figuring it out now is just as painful as you remember. PTSD seems to be a common thing with us. I managed to get dovetail measuring figured out when I needed it, but not without earning a migraine and explosive diarrhea ... plus two emergency naps to get my brain out of lockup (reboot, Reboot, REBOOT!) Now I hope that the notes I made in my little black book are enough to help me remember the next time I need it.
On the other hand, when it came to learning how to work fractions, I had a much easier time with that than my classmates did. Probably because I could easily visualize it.
@@infoanorexic Re fractions yep! I'm the only one any of my friends know that convert decimals to fractions in my head, work the fractions , and then convert it back to a decimal. Usually i can do it faster than they can fire up their phone calculator
Thanks for the lesson, Joe. I've never seen those before.
850 likes now and 6 dissenters! Thanks again Joe for great content and the education!
Cheers from John, Australia.
I'm sure most machinists ponder the purpose of the pointy end of the edge finder. I use it to align the spindle with small holes: with the mill off I pull the quill down until the cone seats perfectly in the hole, then it's a matter of moving the table until a thumbnail doesn't catch on any of the sides of the edge finder. I don't know if that is its intended purpose, but that's what I do with it.
And my own preference is to use a Sharpie to center wigglers. It's so cool when you can feel it suddenly lock in on the perfect axis of rotation. Wigglers and edge finders are amazing in their simplicity.
i use a dead center, then indicate the hole
Great Video! I think I have a few of these floating around in a machinist box that I bought used. Now I know what they are and how to use them!
The pencil tip is my favorite way to center a wiggler.
Thanks for another great tip!
Thank you Mr Pie, I have a tooling ball that was gave to me and had no clue what it was used for. Great video . God bless
Great video (as allways) Joe. I was just trying to explain the usage of tooling balls to someone online and I will share a link to this video. Covers the basics perfectly.
Also a hreat tip for protecting the tip of the wiggler. It won't work for some wigglers though. My Starrett No. 828 wiggler has a screw to adjust load on the ball end at the back (top) of the assembly. BUT it is designed to so that one can unscrew the collar and reverse the wiggler end so it is held inside.
Thanks for watching.
Thanks for the video, Joe. BTW, I use a 7/16 open end wrench to center the wiggler.
Another gem Joe and of course our friend trig again - most informative and thanks.
Mr. Joe,
Thank you for doing this video!! A coworker very vaguely described the use of tooling balls to me several years ago and since then I have asked several folks about them and no one really seemed to be able to describe in detail their intended use. It is something I have never used but as I think back I can think of multiple times where it wouldve been the best option. Also, while I am commenting, the rotary table videos were awesome too. Thanks for all the help youve given over the last few years.
Keith Smith
Belton, SC
As I have said before Joe , you should open up a school. You could fill the class room real fast just read the comments. It's amazing of how many of us learn so much from just your videos. I will also say it again it's a shame that it's not more teachers in the schools that can make learning as interesting and simple as you.
Excellent video. I might add that the tooling ball allows you to pickup the fixture when it is rotated in several axes. It's usually beneficial to have a couple different styles on hand to match the particular variation called out on the blueprint. If, for some reason you find yourself setting up on two angles, or an angle while rotating the workpiece , you will find yourself slipping down the rabbit hole known as compound angles. Instead of merely calculating sides of a triangle, you may find yourself looking for base angles, angles of inclination and/ or angles of rotation of a pyramid. That topic is worthy of at least a full semester (or more ) at college . Keep up the good work.
Joe - using the ball for finding center was already understood , but never realized the long shoulder one measured down to the shoulder. Thanks for the great video.
The short one does as well. Its just easier to remember the height = the diameter.
Tooling balls are also great for construction as well as inspection. Especially if you have multiple angles and or radii. They can all be located via the tooling ball and it allows for easy inspection. We often use a sine bar or plate and height gauge to inspect for proper location. Just thought I'd throw that in as a side note. Another great video that I am sure many viewers will find value in at the machine or surface plate.
I guess I didn't know what a tooling ball was... I thought you were talking about the small balls like at the end of an indicator, which I guess are basically used for similar processes... Also, I've seen wigglers used, but usually only for touching off edges to find center, never for pin pointing... Awesome, always learn so much watching you...
Everyone is a winner! Another great video Joe!
Thanks Joe. Very, very helpful.
Thank you, have never seen these used before.
Thank you Joe, awesome lesson.
Joe great job as always. You keep opening up my eyes. Can't wait for the next video.
Very smart, Joe.
I have a wiggler set with the pointer, and edge finding ball, edge finding cylinder and a dial test indicator holder. Cost me a whole £5.95. Good tips, many thanks.
Great Info...it took me a Second watch to clean my cobwebs
Very cool setup tool - I had never heard of them until you mentioned them the other day. Just wondering if you've heard of them being made in-house in either home or commercial shops versus buying commercially - at 35 to 75 bucks a crack it adds up . . . Thank you for sharing your experience!
I would like to donate to the cause. Alot of so called schools charge big bucks for mediocre education. I think your videos are priceless valuable knowledge. I know it may seem presumptuous but you should set up a Patreon page. So some of us can thank you with a voluntary donation. You may or may not need or want it but i would assume that the better off you are the longer the videos will continue. Nothing is FREE including time. Anyway thanks again.
Thank you for the thought. All the links to donation or support resources are posted in the description below this video czcams.com/video/eSeYUxV1A4Y/video.html
We had an ever-expanding collection of part-specific soft jaws and fixtures. Each had a fixture reference feature(s), the reference offset numbers, and the part number machined into it. The jaw pairs both had the part number in case they got separated. The data files (CAD, CAM, G-Code) were all named with the fixture part number. If you picked up a pair of jaws and didn't know what they were for it was a straight forward exercise to find the associated file. At least with CAM / CNC, adding the text was a trivial additional step. The other take-away: create a part numbering scheme EARLY and apply it to everything you create.
One, I have both the double ended edge finder and wiggler. Edge finder recommended RPM as per Brown & Sharp 750 to 1000 max. I see people use them at 2400 plus RPM and can’t figure out why they have to keep buying new ones🙄
Wiggler is a Starrett is 250 to 400 RPM as per told by the retiree that gifted it to me 15 years ago.
Tooling balls I beg for them but companies don’t want to buy them.
As usual, good vid and good info Joe.
Glad I found your channel. Learning a ton from you. Keep up the great work and thank you.
Joe,
You must have been a excellent teacher in a previous life 🤗
Excellent video
Another great video. Thanks. Your presentation is well prepared. The explanation is very clear. You are probably the best presenter on You tube for machining content. My comments apply to all your other videos, as well, except for the damn spider. Other than that, keep your fingers away from the rotating wiggler. Use a scale or other object to get it to run true. If you are only touching one side of the needle it can go from dead true to a flycutter faster than you can say ,"OH CRAP".
Nice Joe. Love this stuff. Great way to get you TO your math - and math is never wrong. Learned something as always!
Super interesting and informative video Joe. You have a great way of explaining things so it's easy to understand .... Thanks Joe
Thank you.
Great video. Great training!
I use tooling balls with the renishaw probes ALL the time. Our older Horizontal 4 axis machines don’t keep track of relative positions like our newer 5X mills. They are a great way to quickly check your setup. I always make some fine adjustments to my offsets using real outcomes from the machining and measuring. Sometimes I can see that it needs to move a couple grand in one way or another. But there is always the CMM in the quality room or even better Faro arm to wheel out to the shop to get dead nuts. I love my tooling ball, but you can also machine tipped surfaces planar to your rotations into the fixture too.
Taking 2d-refrences to 3d saves the day!
You can also use the pointed edge finder to find the center of a small hole or slot.
That's what i thought they were for, it's really funny how we are all guilty of never using the pointed side of the edge finder, just looking at it and pondering what it could be for
There are numerous ways to establish zero on the part. It all depends on the situation. Some times a couple Sharpie lines works, sometimes you need to use a Tool Makers Chair or Corner Block. Sometimes you need a Centering Scope. Just like sometimes you can do your moves by the dial. Sometimes the afore mentioned precision scale and optics. And sometimes you need precision length standards as used to be used jig bores and grinders.
My favorite all time device for finding edges is a 3D Tester. It's one of those fancy indicators that when you bring it up to the part and bring the needle to zero the spindle centerline is lined up to the edge. Now do the other axis. Bang your done. Two minutes tops. Usually more like one. Another trick i've used is to simply place a .500 dowel in the spindle bring it down below the top of the work. Bump the stock up against it and set the DRO to -.250. This works really well if yo are changing from one set-up to another and your other axis is not changing it's zero.
I showed that .500 pin trick in a CNC video about a year ago. It works well for rapid positioning.
@@joepie221
Proof once more great minds think alike.
Wigglers are great additions to a tool box. A trick I was taught by an old machinist many years ago was to stick a sewing pin in a blob of BluTac (TacK-It, Adhesive Putty, etc). Straighten it against your finger and it will ce centred on the spindle centre line.. Cheaper than a wiggler and won't demage fingers too. It can even be stuck on the tool tip if you have the height.
the Starrett brand wiggler that I have stores the needle inside of itself the body another great tip thanks Joe
The pointed end of a edge finder can be used to find the center of very small holes or narrow slots. Lower point partially into hole, touch up on one side then the other side, and split the difference. Don't change the height of the spindle between readings.
Works same way for finding center of an OD as well.
Good stuff as always. Thanks Joe!
Great video. I use tooling balls every day to make complex 5 axis parts on 3 axis machines.
Wiggler 1000rpm and use a pen to steady it. Good video Joe
I had a friend mention using the conical end of edge finder to pick up rounds where the conventional method doesn't work. You'd have to have a constant z-height, but it's the one thing that makes the most sense to me where you're not trying to eyeball something. (Not that eyeballing can't be accurate)
I use the box end of a wrench to steady the wiggler.
Grear Joe, must have missed this one, tooling ball! Great idea...
Great demenstration, learned Somthing new thanks!.
Thanks Joe. You are amazing. I really appreciate your common sense basic way of solving problems. I have learned alot from your videos!
p.s. I can hardly wait for the rest of your cannon build...
Great presentation as always. I'm wondering why a pointed wiggler would be used to pick up a scribe line versus just chucking up a precision ground pointed pin. I've had a wiggler like the one you showed but never figured out why you would go to the trouble of trying to center it by hand to use it like a pointer - have I missed something here? I've usd an edge finder a million times but never the pointer. Great safety tip on that by the way. Please don't quit making these videos - I love them - they make me think.
Nice tip for storing the sharp wiggler tip. Great lesson.
Ya gotta poke yourself a few times and it was pretty clear what had to happen.
@@joepie221 I used to true up my wiggler the same way you do in this video. Until I found that using my scale, drill rod, brass rod,or anything other than my fingers as I find it faster with less friction. I've been Machining for 40+ years in job shops and still learning. I enjoy your videos.their like talking shop over break time or lunch.
Sounds like you are due for some repairs on the mill. A little noisy. Would drive me lock up the shop and go home. LoL another great video. Always a pleasure 😊
There is a guy on here - his channel is Clickspring. He uses the end of a pencil to centre his wiggler (That would all sound seriously weird to a non engineer!). Another great video - keep em coming.
Chris at Clickspring is a talented guy. I watch his videos all the time.
I was taught to use a pencil tip, but the pucker power of doing it by hand is hard to ignore.
Thanks, Joe -- always wondered how one uses a tooling ball.
Been bit by the wiggler -- just use a pencil or 6" Delrin rod on the on the side down near the tip, a light pressure will cause it to easily run true. Push too hard, it will over center, helicopter and potentially attack ya.
Nice! Thanks Joe!
Holy schmit i had one of those tooling balls but i never knew what it was ,its rusty thous ,i might do some cleaning.
Thanks Joe ,smarter every day.
The cone end of the edge finder can also be used to find the center of a hole provided the hole is smaller than the largest diameter of the cone. Put the edge finder in the chuck and then place the cone in the hole. Move the X and Y axis until you can feel that the cone is precisely aligned with the body of the edge finder. Your sense of touch is good to the micron range which means you can find the center of the hole extremely accurately.
Proud2bmodest, yep good use of that pointy end!
Great video Joe! Learning a lot from your videos. I have to say the entire cnc community as a whole is absolutely fantastic for sharing years of experience and knowledge, I've only been using a Tormach 770m cnc for a couple of months (fusion360 driven) and I have to say "I'm luvin it" lol my 3d printer is so dusty hahahahaaa... I haven't programmed the machine much directly but im learning day by day, thanks ;-)
Very useful info sir. handy little trick for the wiggler probe too. Thanks
I have known about them but never needed to use it. I wasn't sure how they were used exactly. I guess it's time to get a pair of balls. Thanks for the info.
Properly used they're used in sets of 3 as "legs" in a "tripod" layout on/under "parts" that need to be "self-leveling" when FINISHED and they"ll be PART OF THE ORIGINAL DESIGN. Who in the fuck is going to add "tooling holes" and/or "tooling balls" to a "job" and after and because they can't "set up" the "job" right with a fucking "CNC" machine? The same "machinists" with all the tips, tricks, answers and solutions to "problems" real professional machinists/shops either don't have or "solve" themselves because they sure as fuck don't have the time and/or ability and/or helplessness to run to CZcams in their typically "swamped" machine shops where 90% of "jobs" are customer carry-in REPAIR AND/OR REBUILD WORK AND ITS ONLY "BIG" MACHINE SHOPS THAT ARE "ONE-STOP SHOPS" FOR 'ENGINEERING" AND "DESIGN" AND ACTUAL "MANUFACTURING" OF "MACHINES" RATHER THAN "PARTS" AND DO WELDING/FABRICATION AND THE "BREAD AND BUTTER" CARRY-IN REPAIR/REBUILD WORK THAT "PAYS THE BILLS" WITH CONSTANT, STEADY YEAR-ROUND CASH FLOW FROM EVERYTHING FROM "ENGINE WORK" TO MAKING/REPAIRING/MODIFYING FARM/CONSTRUCTION/FORESTRY/MARINE/RAILROAD/MINING/TRUCK/AUTOMOTIVE PARTS PRIMARILY FOR DEALERSHIP SERVICE DEPARTMENTS, REPAIR SHOPS AND COMPANIES/INDIVIDUALS IN THOSE BUSINESSES THAT
"DO THEIR OWN REPAIRS" AND ARE REPEAT CUSTOMERS THAT EVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT "SET-UP COSTS" AND/OR "PRODUCTION WORK" AND THEY DAMNED SURE AREN'T SITTING IN THEIR 'EMPTY" MACHINE SHOPS WATCHING OR MAKING "HOW-TO" VIDEOS PLAYING "MACHINIST" ONLINE BECAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY HAVE NO "JOBS" TO DO THAT CAN'T WAIT UNTIL THEY MAKE OR WATCH ANOTHER "HOW-TO" VIDEO.
ONLY "MACHINISTS" WHO HAVE NEVER WORKED A DAY OF THEIR "CAREERS" IN A REAL "JOB SHOP" WORTH A TIN SHIT AND HAVE NO CLUE THAT EVEN "AVERAGE" OR "NEW" MACHINISTS/SHOPS READY, WILLING AND ABLE TO FIND AND DO "WORK" RATHER THAN "JOBS" EVER HVE ENOUGH "FREE TIME" AT WORK OR SPEND A SECOND AT WORK THEY DON'T HAVE TO ON "THEIR TIME" UNLESS ITS TO WORK ON THEIR OWN "JOBS" WOULD BE CLUELESS ENOUGH TO MAKE AND WATCH "HOW-TO" VIDEOS AS SUPPOSED "PROFESSIONALS" WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN THAT AND WITHOUT CUSTOMER ONE EVER "INTERRUPTING" THEIR "FREE TIME" AT "WORK" WHERE APPARENTLY THEY NEED TO MAKE OR WATCH "HOW-TO" VIDEOS JUST TO "GET BY" IN THEIR "PROFESSION" AND STAY IN "BUSINESS".
The way I true up a wiggler is to touch the tip of wiggler with.a smooth flat object like a six inch scale.
Joe,
I use the edge of a rule or piece of steel to get that 'flycutter' finger mangler to run true.