How accurate is this? - Ancient Chinese Historian Describes The Roman Empire (Voices of the Past)
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
- How accurate is this ancient Chinese historian's account of the Roman Empire.
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Voices of the Past released an excellent narrated video called: Ancient Chinese Historian Describes The Roman Empire // 3rd century AD "Weilüe" // Primary Source. In it Yu Huan of Wei gives us a window into what ancient China knew about Da Qin or ancient Rome. We provide context for the text and then go line by line to analyze what the historian got right or wrong. This includes his description of the silk road travel route by land and sea as well as his description of Roman customs, government, dependencies, and trade goods.
For additional context about Rome and China contact check out our other documentary where we ask did ancient Rome and China meet? What did they know? • Did Ancient Rome Meet ...
#History
#Rome
#China
Link to the video from Voices of the Past: czcams.com/video/4XdPodNwSGU/video.html
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There were definitely lions in Greece. there is an account I've read for sure and tigers ( caspian. now extinct) roamed to turkey and Georgia until fairly recent times.
NordVPN seriously? did you guys not hear about the security breaches?
czcams.com/video/tIiHW550w18/video.html
@@sezarsezar2830 Yeah, he needs to drop them.
Actually silk was produced already by the Greeks during antiquity. Mainly on the island of Kos. Though by a different variety of moths and with lesser quality then the Chinese silk, which was also spun differently.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coa_vestis
Almost all of the details that sound wrong or somewhat weird are explainable by correlation to the Han Empire. For example the 400 cities being only 400 (Chinese "cities" were closed administrative centres, heavily bureaucratized and without free movement of people and goods, the entire population of the Empire was grouped in administrative divisions of 100, 1000, 10000 people and so on), and also the description of the capital (which seems way more bureaucratized and way bigger than the actual Rome, since that's the way Chinese capitals and governments worked); but also the mentioning of postal service, original writing systems, silk, stone buildings and walls, tall and educated people are all being done with the intention of portraying the Romans as "equal to us", and not as just another barbarian reign; all of those traits the Chinese linked with their most unique traits, traits of civilization.
One last thought: the writer wrote his account when the Han Empire had collapsed, in a time of "chaos under heaven" when the Mandate had been retired from the Sky and corruption reigned in China; his depiction of the Roman Empire, and especially of the Roman Emperors' virtue and their practice of peacefully resigning the throne when Heaven wished, is a classic projection of a utopian world, upon foreigners in lands far away.
B Jiang Yah, the Chinese height shrinks during the Qing dynasty, the average living standard of the Qing dynasty was below all previous dynasties, meaning less food per average person could afford, less food less nutritions and smaller body.
To be honest, the so called thousands of citizens might not even have a size of village in China.
Even long back in the Qin Dynasty, the standard is 10000 families to set as a city. If we assume only 5 people in a family, there is going to be 20 millions population for only 400 cities.
"Roman emperors' virtue and their practice of peacefully resigning the throne"
Uhhhh, didn't most of them rule until their deaths? The only emperor I can remember from my schooling that abdicated was Diocletian, and he didn't do it willingly.
Is it possible he heard tales of the earlier Republic when consuls used to be elected to temporary terms and conflated that with contemporary Rome?
"The ruler of this land is not permanent, when disasters strike, they uncerimoniously replace him with a new King". It almost sounds like he's describing the Roman Republic practice of appointing a dictator for 1 year during times of national disaster. Since China didn't really have elected offices, from their perspective it would just look like replacing one king with another. Rather than replacing both temporary consuls with a temporary dictator.
This text was written centuries after the Republic fell though. So I'm thinking he got his hands on some sources which described the Republic, but erroneously thought it was describing the current Empire.
The bit about Romans being able to "conjure fire" sounds like he's describing alchemy. And since a lot of Roman alchemy/proto-chemistry has been lost to time, we don't know what chemical process he was describing, but could have very well actually existed. Or it could just be a street performer blowing grain spirits over a torch.
Either way it's fun to try and guess what he was actually referring to.
@B Jiang China had fought the most frequent and brutal wars throughout history so the bigs and talls were usually the first bunch to die unless they were scholar elites who didn't have to go to war, the trend of height in China was generally becoming shorter and smaller each dynasty after dynasty. Despite this, China was ranked the 2nd tallest nation in Asia in 19th century by some German sources.
@@hwasiaqhan8923 During Qing dynasty there was an explosion of population which caused nutrition distribution per person becoming much lesser, that was the era when hell lot of Chinese from southern borders started settling to Southeast Asia like Singapore, Malaysia , Indonesia and others because they had no enough food to eat due to massive increase of population.
The exaggerated time to reach Rome is probably by Persian people who tried to dissuade the Chinese from making direct contact with the romans, also about the word hu (胡), I think it would be more properly translated as barbarian, since everyone outside of China is considered a barbarian, 胡 is among the many word the Chinese used to describe barbarians.
That's a pretty big brain move tho, not gonna lie. If they contact the Romans directly, Persia won't get those sweet trade money.
wow great theory !
@@Toto-95 pretty sure this was from kings and generals. Kings and generals definitely are good at citing their sources.
@@izangomso I believe it was, it was also cited in a course from The great courses and some other stuff. The fact Kings and Generals are so diligent about citing their sources makes them one of the best channels around imo. History time is another who is superb in this aspect.
Good point! I think saying that Rome produced silk the another example of this - if a product comes from multiple locations and supply is greater then the price merchants pay is lower. In reality, Rome did not produce silk but demand was very great, which means greater profits for the merchants - as long as the seller is convinced that the demand for silk is not as high as it really is.
"A brief account of Wei" >goes and writes a library of books
If we assume that he wrote on sheets of wood, this "library" would be big enough to need to be transported by oxcart, yet would not have contained a massive amount of pages.
This 50 books would have been, say, 600 pages. A lot to read, yes, but not nearly as much as you think.
With modern print, and size of print, it might be maybe 300-400 pages. More like a read for an afternoon, than a "library", and definitely the "short version".
Do not assume words always mean what you are used to them to mean, because if the words deceive you, you are the only one you can blame.
It’s brief for Chinese standards, we fucking love writing
@@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681 Huh, made a joke for the lols and actually got to learn even more. Sweet!
Paper was invented an improved druing Han, so people in Three Kingdom would use paper rather than bamboo
@@hanliu3707 Bamboo is better bitch.
The Roman "silk" was likely a reference to Sea Silk, a luxury fabric made from the byssal threads of certain pen shell clams. It's been described as even finer than normal silk and almost certainly would of drawn the attention of a Chinese trader/historian.
The Romans kept the source of Sea Silk secret so the writer likely assumed they were using worms, and probably reinforced the idea the Romans were descended from the Chinese.
Would have*
Oooh I would like to see something on that 🥰
That’s interesting, on another comment I’ve read on a similar video they mentioned that the Parthians would do anything to prevent the Chinese from meeting the Romans and said that the Romans also have a way of producing silk to prevent the Chinese from monopolizing the market. This way the Parthians would purchase silk from the Chinese and sell it to the Romans at a profit.
Idk 226 A.D. that sounds about the time peroid where the praetorian guard could unceremoniously replace emperors lol
But he said "without protest", implying the old "King" would still be alive after being removed from power. Which sounds a lot more like a dictator being appointed during an emergency than an Emperor being assassinated. If he thought power passed through succession or violence like it did in China, he probably wouldn't have remarked on it because it wouldn't have been considered weird by the Chinese mindset.
But he said "without protest", implying the old "King" would still be alive after being removed from power. Which sounds a lot more like a dictator being appointed during an emergency than an Emperor being assassinated. If he thought power simply passed through succession or violence like it did in China, he probably wouldn't have remarked on it because it wouldn't have been considered weird by the Chinese mindset.
I think he simply heard tales of past consular elections and mistakenly thought Romans still did that in the 3rd century.
@@barahng From the other hand an assassinated Emperor can't protest. [Insert Roll Safe Meme Template]
@@barahng It kinda seems like he was projecting the Chinese concept of a "mandate of heaven" onto Rome, and trying to use that to explain why Roman Emperors were dethroned so frequently.
@@barahng well, in practice I recall that were some instances of emperors dethrone without killing them. They were anecdotal, but probably an instance of this was assumed as a typical one...
Invicta i wanted to thank you so much. I really loved the voices of the past video, but it alone is not enough.
The work you have done to properly contextualize it is so appreciated. You have truly done a massive service to everyone.
You going line by line explaining everything really helped me see it in a whole new light.
Thanks for the kind words! I loved their video and the format they do but agree that context is definitely quite helpful. I'll be working with the guys over at "Voices of the Past" for future videos which will be an exciting partnership!
Ironically theres a CZcams channel called Voices Of The Past and they just talked about this exact subject a few weeks ago, they're pretty good too.
Their a sister channel of History Time i think
Me brains a scrambled egg so the memory is a little fuzzy at best.
@@bugzyhardrada3168 Are you making a joke here? This is exactly about that video by that channel. History time is one of my favorite channels too, so indepth about subjects many dont handle, and not such a big focus on battles.
@@ProvidenceNL nah i just havent watched it yet
Just felt like leaving an ignorant comment for all to see
You know typical monday stuff.....
What I find so interesting about the whole description is that there wasn't a hint of the Chinese looking down on the Romans. Obviously they would have believed themselves the superior people, as everyone would have at the time, but it sounds as though the writer approached the subject at least attempting to be dispassionate and object in his writing. He clearly had some level of respect for the Romans, at least in so far as his understanding of them went. I also like how he described tales of the 'mystic-west' where people could conjure spells and breath fire. It's so reminiscent of how Europe saw china in a way. Like the Easterners had arcane knowledge and were capable of things no European was. I love it.
I assume these discrepancies are the result of the writer using others as sources like the traders rather than going to Rome himself. It's why the trade goods and travel are described, and little anything else.
I think İf We have Zhang He's script We can see special knowladge about this topic.I mean Zhang He's sea trade expedition can base on that kind of history annals.
THOSE SNEAKY PERSIANS
@@yunisturabov9118 sadly all his works burned after his death
@@_ABDUL-RAHIM. True in 1529
I wonder what sort of reception he would have gotten traveling to Rome. Since everyone living there had probably never seen an East Asian before.
Chinese guy had to turn in a report on the Roman Empire in the morning but didn't do the reading so this was his best attempt.
Dog ate his homework lol
Mantis42 thousand of years later. We are still doing the same
So... Yu Huan to know about Rome?
Mantis42 Same thing can be said about Western historians researching India.
@@MedjayofFaiyum Relax, it's a joke.
Thank you for producing history content beyond the "wars, battles and more wars" that is so saturated on the site
You are very welcome! I feel like there is so much of this sort of history that goes underappreciated.
Agreed, thus i am really happy with this channel, and also with Kings and Generals, who at first only did exactly what you said, but now also handle alot of other topics. If you are looking for another OUTSTANDING channel that doesnt really handle battles, but cultures etc, look for History Time.
I really wish we had an RTS city builder that was set in ancient times. We've had a few like the Sierra games, Caesar III stands out, or the faux medieval game "banished", but I wish we'd get a total war game, preferably set in the time of sail and discovery, that focused more on the actual logistics of war rather than just upkeep+ battles.
Soldiers needing food routes, new weapons and armor being something that slowly improves an army rather than a flat upgrade to all units.
Think about WW1 and WW2 how many new weapons were developed that barely and sometimes never even reached the front lines. That's the stuff that would have me hooked. Dragons are rad, dwarfs are cool, but I want to have something that melts my brain trying to have a functioning army far from home.
The ending bit about a feeling of exploration is something I often long for. Sure you can go places you haven’t been, but it’s not entirely new. Either someone else has already discovered it or you’ve heard about it. It’s hard to imagine going somewhere you’ve literally only heard of through legends and tales. Especially somewhere as legendary and advanced as Rome.
Yeah, imagine living in a secluded backwater farming village and deciding to roam and explore and you just stumble upon a city you couldn't even fathom existing.
The thing about the entertaining jugglers is a legit reference, though, Invicta. Hellenistic period jugglers, especially those from Syria, were very popularly used and present in cities and royal courts throughout large parts of Asia, as far as Burma apparently. It's definitely reasonable to assume some reached as far as China along with some Roman merchants for that matter, especially due to the Indian Ocean trade described by the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea and even Ptolemy in his Geography.
Also, the conjuring of fireballs from the mouth sounds like fire breathers.
@@pugilist102 Yes. I definitely agree. Sounds like he was describing a Roman version of a circus performance.
It's fantastic to see these excellent CZcams history channels collaborating.
It provides us the viewers with a much more rich of the past. Thank you!
I can't help but get the impression that a lot of the "no shit sherlock" descriptors of things the Romans are said to do, things common to a lot of civilizations, were likely bits called out to highlight the author's impression that Rome is a civilized land, doing civilized things, despite frequent mention of elements like dress and writing system that the authors likely associated with peoples in between, many of which would likely be regarded as barbarians from their perspective.
You've also got to remember that since the Han empire collapsed China no longer had the Mandate of Heaven. So the writer here could also be writing in a way that shows how these people are what we should be like to regain the Mandate of Heaven
@@TheRagingStorm98 Ooh, that's a potentially interesting thought too.
"They were once from China but left it" part really implies Rome's creation myth of being the decedents of Troy - Troy being an Asian city, to the east.. accounts of this could easily be misinterpreted to mean from much FURTHER east.
That's a brilliant point! I never thought of it that way. That would indeed mirror the claims of Trojan origins in Vergil's epic Aeneid, to give the Latin-speaking Romans a sense of greater belonging to a Mediterranean world that was already very colonial Greek, and of course Punic/Carthaginian/Phoenician. The Weilue by Yu Huan (and Book of Later Han) makes other curious points that show the Chinese were receiving info from the West.
I doubt that one story would've reached China. Seems more likely to me that what Invicta said is true: that the historian is assuming that as China is the center of the world, people as civilized and similar to the Chinese as the people of Da Qin would naturally be related to the Chinese.
Especially since he projects a lot of traits typical of the Han empire on Rome, assuming the way these foreigners operate is similar to that of his home country, because, well, we all tend to assume that, when dealing with incomplete information.
@@antonioscendrategattico2302 It is the founding myth of the Romans, promulgated since the end of the second Punic war, used as propaganda for the rise of single rule by Augustus. It is the basis of roman justification of their territorial holdings from roughly 190 BCE to 192 CE... I would highly doubt that a scholar looking at Rome in this time *wouldn't* hear their founding myth.
@@Tritium21 Of course, but remember that the sources of this particular author were most likely Parthian merchants. I don't think they would've particularly cared about THAT story.
@@antonioscendrategattico2302 That would be the only story of rome on their mind - Rome would have bashed their heads in with it was part of their justification for taking them as a province. Rome is legalistic, they really like their justifications, and really like letting you know what they are... for as long as they own you.
This has the appearance of a minor story of rome in the 20th and 21st centuries, but it was very VERY well told in antiquity.
I watched the voices of the past video last week, and this is exactly what I needed. More collabs, please 😊😊
Is this a collab or just someone trying to get views by using someone else's work.
I don’t remember where I heard it, but apparently the misconception about silkworms and domestic Roman silk production was a lie thought up by the Parthians so the Chinese would think they *weren’t* a monopoly and thus that they wouldn’t price their silks quite as extortionately. And they reinforced this lie by selling them “Roman” silk textiles which were literally just spools of raw Chinese silk spun into bolts of cloth in the Roman fashion (which legitimately used a different set of techniques from how Chinese craftsmen would spin and weave and therefore had a different finished texture) and then sent right back where they came from.
The handing of messages that are bagged and reviewed later is factual. Julius Caesar on the day he was killed was handed a scroll with the details of the plot. He handed it to his assistant who put it in a bag, expecting to read it later. Oops. The whole practice was part of the Roman patronage system.
Your description does sound like a general handing of notes/letters between individuals which is different than the specific case in the text of a king walking around intending for randos from the public to drop notes in to his suggestion box.
@@InvictaHistory I reckon the Chinese author was commenting on the Roman patronage system. And, it was not uncommon for Romans to petition their Senators in this way.
@👁️ sorry man, I can't help you much there. I don't remember which video I saw it in. I think it was a historia civilis video. I think it's one where he discusses the Roman patronage system and there's another recent one where he relates the story about Julius Caesar being handed the information. Good luck searching.
@👁️ It would be in the latest video by Historia Civilis mate
@👁️ The video seems well sourced to me. Plenty by Plutarch and a few others there.
czcams.com/video/9XBxMk_plhA/video.html
The video link if you are interested.
"Lol are you Mexican?"
"No... I'm Chinese, why?"
"Cause Yu Huan"
Bruh, why???
@@Jamhael1 you Juan
terrible joke thank you
I think that the description of Roman governance and when he says that they exchange their rulers based on virtue might really be referring to the times during the Republic. As far as I understood, the author never actually visited and so he might've been working from accounts decades if not hundreds of years old. All that aside, even if he did have current accounts, many of the emperors throughout the first and second centuries still tried to maintain the facade of at least a semi-democratic system in place as to hide their own absolute power and prevent a rebellion by officially establishing monarchy, even though in effect the Emperor's power was indeed absolute.
Great video, thanks!
Thank you for being honest with us about nord and telling us to make an informed decision and look for reports of our own
The conjuring of fire from mouths sounds an awful lot like fire breathers at banquets..
I love this stuff. Relations between Rome and China have always been a fascination of mine and this video great
The last queen of your dynasty wouldve done you proud. For the most part anyways
@@cratoss.4772 whe wis wabulous wank wou wor wasking
@@yugitrump435 Gwad to hwear,wish wyour fwamily the vevy bvest!
@@cratoss.4772 wank wou! Wor we wlory wof wome!
As you said, Yu Huan's description was a compilation of many sources, some recent, many older than when he wrote, from many authors. So he was synthesizing what was known, through the "filter" of his own world and beliefs, filling in the gaps.
I admit that I am still guilty of viewing the ancient world in silos and being disconnected from each other.
This is eye opening.
Fascinating take, I love this coverage!
fascinating! Hope you can find more stuff like this
Wow this video amazes me, love the videos Invicta!!! Keep it up!! Cant wait for the next videos!! 👍🤙
Chinese historian: It took 6 days to get to the Roman country
Invicta: So this is wrong it's more like a week to Sicily.
So what the Chinese guy said.
Well, apparently a week= 7 days, and the chinese dude said 6 days.
No because Italy was only the peninsule in roman times
@@cristhianramirez6939 but Medieval Chinese sources mentioned that Sicily have the same culture as Rome
I keep coming back to this video because i find it soo fascinating. As my uni school is progressing though, I'm thinkin that i might use this video in a classroom to start teaching students how to analyze primary sources.
12:45 I suppose another possible interpretation is that some Chinese historian heard something about Rome's claim to being descendants of the Trojans who migrated to the West into Italy, but the historian assumed that they must have been talking about coming from China.
You stated that this "book" was a mix of previous reports. OK, so it was written in the time of the Roman Empire, but the reports could have been from the time of the Republic, when they didn't have a permanent "king".
Or they talked about the dictator (in times of turmoil)
*Also go check out Voice from the Past's video about the Chinese account of Fulin- or the Byzantine Empire*
There they write long sections about the Thedosian Walls, Roman red glass, the Roman air conditions, and also referred to Constans II and Muawiyah I of the Umayyad Caliphate.
Yeah. I'd really like to know what the bird that detects poison might be.
Bump. I want to know about that duck.
@@robinfa1477 That's what bothered you? LAMBS GROWING OUT OF THE GROUND!! LAMBS!!!!
@@andrewsuryali8540 And the chicken frightening rhinocerous stones. I found some explanation for the stones and lambs in the comments though.
Very cool video man, you did a very good historical analysis of the text. If you can do more videos on texts like this, that bring a foreign perspectives on different empires.
Another great Video. The Roman merchant ‘Lun’ who met the Wu Emperor Sun Quan in AD 226 may have been an Alexandrian Greek named Leon. The incident is recorded in the Liang-shu.
Please do more on Roman trade, but also a video on the ancient postal system in and around Rome.
I found it very interesting thank you
Have to say watched u first for Total war but that lasted a week or two. Truthfully love the history videos will never stop watching them.
Extraordinary issue.İt is remarkable ability that help us to see reality in history.Your channel admired me
This is great background for when I’m worldbuilding my book/creative thinking. Very insightful my friend.
Thanks for the commentary. I watched the original video a couple of days ago and was wondering about many of the points you took out and explained here. I came across a couple of ancient Chinese sources about the subject and I couldn't help but think that they can describe almost any place west of china including India, Persia, Egypt and of course Rome. The thing is I couldn't find any definitive answer to where these Chinese names are actually referring to. Most of the scholars working on these texts seem to agree on the translation (of place names) given here, but still, something doesn't add up. Maybe I haven't come across a solid piece of evidence that they actually have access to yet, but to this point, I cannot definitively approve that this is a text about Rome itself. I would be more than grateful if anyone can provide me with some resources on this subject, especially help from Chinese people would be appreciated. Thanks again for your great job on the subject, as always.
你想要了解什么？
So great full to know
3:48 - - - Where today is the Suez Canal, there was also a navigable artificial canal in the ancient times. It was last time improved and maintained during the reign of Queen Cleopatra. After the collapse of the ancient Western civilization, that canal was neglected. It was fully buried by nature and it disappeared by the time the Suez Canal was built in the XIXth century.
Very GOOD Job...
What a very informative video. It was quite nice to listen to. Still wonder what if these two great empires had made contact with each other.
Amazing as always! Question: How much time would it take for someone in Rome to walk all the way to China in those times?
Marco polo took about 4 years to reach China by land from Italy in the 13th century so I guess it would have taken about 4 years give or take.
I don't know back then but today, according to Google map, it takes about 2000h (depending on where you go in China), so about 250 days walking 8 hours a day. I just wanted to share this information with you.
@@simonbarral904 I'd multiply that at least by two, since Google is assuming modern roads and geolocation helping you to find the best route.
@@Vishnu-rf5wk would likely take at least twice as long, considering both Rome and China were in turmoil at the same which makes travel far more complicated if not dangerous. Marco Polo took the trip during the Pax Mongolica and was an official envoy which makes things like getting travel papers easy.
About the same time it would take someone to walk the distance today?
Free history. Amazing work from you guys.
the "came from china" bit is surely a reference to the story of aeneas bringing the roman people from the east to italy
Don't tell Xi Jinping, or he might start to claim that the Roman Empire too was 'made in China'. God forbid!
@@zhouwu Bruh.
Clearly, you must be a southerner.
@@angeliquewu8318
Well, I am a southerner! All the way from Hunan!
Well we shouldn't judge those historians who really based their knowledge from word of mouth decades ago. To them must be like traveling to outter galaxy to us. Even if they've 2 or 3 close descriptions in written text it's already amazing.
When I first heard the bit around 9:27 when he talks about the bag and the petitions being put into it , What first came to mind was the concept of "Holding Fasces". Fasces are a bundle of wooden birch Rods bound up in a cylinder shape by leather ribbon strips which symbolizes Imperium and were carried by Lictors. The term "Holding fasces" refers to the Roman republic when 1 of the 2 elected Consuls had his 1 month to bring forth proposals to the rest of the Senate to be voted upon to possibly become law. Each month the "Fasces" or imperium is passed between the two consuls before thier terms were up.
I can see where this concept of Fasces may have been misinterpreted by the Chinese. For instance the name Fasces originates from Fascis meaning "bundle" which could have been mistranslated as a bag. There is also the fact that they were bundled together by leather strips and carried around may have been interpreted as a leather bag with the wooden rods playing the role of "Petitions" perhaps.
The man holding the "bag" can easily be a reference to the Lictor who would carry the bundle of Fasces alongside a politician to this display his political ranking. the number of rods reflect how much political power aka imperium he has. Consuls obviously has some of the highest power especially in the republic era.
The idea of where the petitions concept the Chinese historians had about roman rule are interesting. This sounds like another reference to Roman Senate of the republic era though this does have some basis in the roman empire time period as well. So when the senate held session , they would go down the line in order of rank and let each member voice a concern or simply have a say on a specific matter until the session ended for the day. Theoretically this should mean every politician had a time to speak but this never happened and in fact, debate rarely got past the elite ranks of senators before a motion was voted on or session was simply shut down because there wasn't enough time in the day. This was still practiced in the time of the emperors with the senate playing the role of advisors rather than thier traditional role when the emperor was present This did not stop the roman senate and later Roman emperors from probably spreading this idea that everyone has a say for propaganda purposes and this most likely is the story the Chinese got about roman politics.
Personally, this part seems less like a straight up propaganda fable that told about Rome to the Chinese and more like a classic case of "Playing Telephone" where the original message was passed down orally from person to person with the message getting changed slightly as it goes until the message is quite different from what was actually said. In this case explaining that a Roman Consul, whose power is represented by Fasces carried by a Lictor proposes a bill which is then debated on by his fellow senators before being put to a vote may in fact came out as The emperor has a guy collecting petitions in a bag and then approves those that seem fair to him. What's interesting is that this idea of the emperor collecting petitions from the people and listening to those that seem fair to him seems to play along the lines of the idea of the Virtuous and Wise Ruler that the Chinese leadership perpetuated during this time period. This is just personal opinion and speculation of course. I don't think we will ever know for sure. but this was really fascinating to watch
I'd never considered how ancient historians wrote about each other's lands. This is some fascinating stuff.
One thing you have to keep in mind too is that he's taking a snippet of Rome as a whole, but obviously not all from the same source- which would also imply some of the sources he quoted from could have not only been altered over the course of time, but from a different time altogether. Also the mentioning of something out of play COULD be that such a thing did exist there briefly. For instance, the idea of Bamboo. Well perhaps he spoke to a merchant going to a route to sell some bamboo- only to find out they already had bamboo from another merchant. Without the explanation of a merchant visiting earlier, it might lead the hearer to misunderstand the situation and wrongly conclude bamboo grows there.
This is just an example of how something could have been added in good faith, only lacking proper context. They could very well have been talking about something that is true, but mistaking a rare happening with something common place.
Also A big contrast between the roman and chinese empire is the amount of import of products. Most stuff found in a chinese market was domestic. So maybe he projected that onto rome's market, believing that everything they sell there is produced inside the empire explaining the silk and bamboo claims since the romans did trade those resources.
Indeed. Some of it sounds like he's citing sources that wrote about Rome while it was still a Republic. Like the bit about "replacing kings during times of national disaster", which sounds more like a Consul being replaced by a Dictator than an Emperor. I'm thinking he just accidentally conflated these sources and thought they referred to contemporary Roman Empire of his time. The Chinese have always been pretty anal about accurate records keeping, so I doubt he was adding this information in bad faith.
11:30 I think there are limited amount of silk farmed in the Near East, though not as fine as Far East silks. Silk in general is thought to have emerged in a few places independently from several different species of moths, though the best and most famous is the one from Bombyx mori silkworms.
Persians could make their own silk from smuggled silkworms and silk makers. It just was not as large scale as it was in China at the time.
@@doriosity5811 Indian and Ceylonese people made silks too IINM, but from different moths.
@LagiNaLangAko23 ditto the Vietnamese, but chances are they have had culture osmosis from the Chinese. The oldest confirmed traces of silkworm rearing dates back to 2500ish BC in China, with unconfirmed evidences of similar practice in the Indus Valley of about the same time period.
@@doriosity5811 nope only Syria and Turkey producted silk
Persia is a desert
I love your channel, and the artwork in your videos. Is there a way to get wallpapers of it? Or just regular copies?
The Roman imperial era was much warmer than today. Bamboo moreover can readily grow in temperate climates. And yeah, the Romans figured out how to cultivate silkworms.
I lived in Jersey City and we had heavy rains and literally we had what looked like huge bamboo shoots over several feet.
@@LadyRavenhaire bamboo is Illegal in NY.
Because it's that invasive.
Seriously it's not tough to have bamboo in a temperate climate. It's really remarkable as plants go...
I am more amazed at how well the Chinese history has been documented over the millennias than anything else
Chinese History is basically a collection of justification for the existence of the subsequent regimes and to give them legitimacy to rule. It's basically their background story for their job description. And their job description is basically to tell the rest of China what's up, that they are now in charge, and these are the orders, now go.
I guess one ruler is as good or as bad as another and you need someone to call the shots. Might as well get them to fight it out using pen and paper instead of blood and lives, but they did use that as well, sometimes.
Anyways, that's just how Chinese history works.
Well, China hasn't had a great collapse. While the west fell apart twice, once at the end of the bronze age and again at the end of Roman dominance, the Chinese empire has never completely fallen to the point of losing most of their history.
In ancient times,historians had high status. Despite that countless dynasties collapsed,the new dynasty will officially sort out the historical records of the previous dynasty. it has been a tradition since 3000 years ago.
Bureaucracy, it’s good for keeping records, but little else.
Except the Mongol and Manchu Dynasties. To a degree, Foreigners occupied high prestigious stalls of powers such as the Khazarmistanis and Kaifeng people, during Yuan and Qing. Chinese ethnic and folk culture declined in the Qing dynasty 290 years reign.
Damn the video that many History channels are talking about it went more viral than expected!
This account is very interesting. It raises several questions: First - Did your ancient Chinese traveler understand the Latin of the ancient Romans, and how well did he understand it? Second - How much of this account would have been propaganda, given to him by the Romans, to make their country look good to this obviously foreign dignitary? I understand that the ancient Chinese rulers systematically traveled from one palace to another, so the Chinese traveler may have assumed that the Roman rulers had a very similar plan.
The thing is that the chinise historian never travel to rome, most of the information they gather from merchents.
@@trla6505 and filtered by Persians
I think the Chinese source was pulling names out of his ass. It reads like: this land north of the sea is called land north of the sea, and that land south of the see is called land south of the sea. And the big country in control is called big China like us.
Totally!
cisalpine gaul= gaul on this side of the alps. transalpine gaul= gaul on the other side of the alps. a lot of cool sounding names are more literal than you think.
Yeah except they failed to mention both the name of the sea or the ethnic group, which the name Cisalpine Gaul at the very least tells us
Da Qin meant great west not great China. Qin refers to the direction of the Roman Empire, it wasn’t a nation name of the Chinese themselves.
@@hwasiaqhan8923 Thanks for the info
Awesome video! I'd love to hear your take on the Greco-Buddhists
love this, thanks. The conjuring... of fireballs and such, might be a translation for a colloquial term for like what a stage magician and entertainer would do, like we don't expect a magic act to use actual magic... This was fun, thanks, Invicta!
We Chinese have an extremely complicated, sometimes stupid but ultimately interesting way of refering to foreigners.
Hu(胡) refers to the Nomadic tribes from the North, for example, "Hulu(胡虏)", means the Northern Barbaric Kingdoms after they settled in Northern China.
The word "Man(蛮)" refers to the (Southern) Barbarians, like "Nan Man(南蛮)", literally means southern Barbarians.
The word "Yi(夷)" refers to the (Western and eastern) Barbarians, like "Xi Yi(西夷)", Barbarians from the West, who raided Western China during the Zhou period. "Dong Yi(东夷)", the Barbarians from the East, was used to refer to Japan, although after proper diplomatic relation was founded, the offensive use declined.
Combined, the Chinese word "Man YI(蛮夷)" refers to the Barbarians as a whole. The word is extremely insulting, as they who cannot use the Chinese language are not seen as "civilized".
The more neutral or even positive word for foreigners is "Yang(洋)", which also means "foreign people", but the more respected ones. The Europeans are "Xi Yang(西洋)", foreigners from the west. The Westernized Mingji Japanese are "Dong Yang(东洋)", foreigners but from the east. During the last Empire, the mockery of the Europeans and British was instructed to be kept to a minimum to avoid angering these foreign partners, trade with whom was vital to the Imperial treasury at the time. Thus it was specifically pointed out that one should refer to them as "Yang", instead of "Yi", "Man" or "Hu", "Lu". "Yang" was seen as a legacy of Imperialism and Colonialism after the fall of the Empire and now is mostly used for sarcastic purpose, as "foreign overlords."
Today everyone outside the Republic is just "Waiguoren(外国人)", literally means "People from another country," with no deeper meaning attached to it.
Everyone else: "What is the name of this place?"
China: "This place is now WHOOSHEEBIIDINGDAO!"
RIP Nippon....
The narrator is reading them in modern Chinese. It's possible the names were closer to the original pronunciation in ancient Chinese.
Pretty much like the British, renaming at will.
If you look at any country in the world, there are good odds that the English name for it is different than how the country is called by its own people. A lot of languages have different names for places than what their native populations call them
@@motti6569 Germany has like 10 different names in Europe alone
As you mention the fact that descriptions trickled in over the centuries, I think it would have been helpful to view it in this light, perhaps with regards to number of "cities" (I also wonder if this a matter of definition) and governance structure. Could the "36 leaders" refer to something like the magistrates?
Little known fact, on his desk, Yu kept a framed embroidery stating "Yu Huan it When?"
I listened to the original video a fairly long time ago, and while it was intriguing I found the lack of commentary or verification of claims frustrating. Therefore this video was perfect as a follow-up!
Those apps that use to calculate the time and distance a ship takes to travel through the seas, does it take into account ancient technology? And was the map you used to estimate the of cities in the Roman Empire an ancient map?
It's amazing that two civilizations so large and ancient knew of eachother's existence. It's fun to imagine how history would've unfolded had they benn able to engage in direct contact and trade.
Regarding safety in the Roman Empire, is it possible that different periods were different as far as public and travel safety? Perhaps the Chinese writer wrote of a period of time when things were relatively calm, perhaps he wrote from his own experience in which he encountered 0 violence on the road and interpreted that as safe from his own travel experiences.
God this would have been so cool. Imagine if the nations of the world were Rome Persia India China that would have been so cool. People from Paris? Roman. People from Damascus? Roman. RIP SPQR
that would have been very bad for usa . as almost all of them would have been more powerful than usa. persian would have all oil so usa could have never bullied them
@@ayushkumar-bg1xf who said the U.S would exist in that timeline? oof
SPQR?
ellie,muffasa and others dude what are you going on about. 🤣
I imagine that if Rome just kept expanding and bullying the northers barbars (and not getting rekt by corruption), probably persia was gone in 100 years, and India within 300, imagine a roman empire expanding half euroasia, good luck china.
People from spain? roman, people form china? roman, people form mars? roman
It always fascinates me how detailed those are. Even if they are not super accurate, its not like "I went there and saw this and that". Its like they try to create a mental map of the land and details of the places.
Voices of the Past is a breddy gud channel, 5/5
شكراً
I got very confused in the original video at the list of places to the west of Rome. Not only do they not exist, but they apparently include Bactria, which was most definitely not to the west, unless you go all the way around the world.
But those places -are- West of China 🙃
I’d imagine the making of Roman Empire seem small is a combination of making their own kingdom seem more powerful and then also taking outdated information from sources.
I have a question for you. In midevil times how did they run an inn? What was considered propped edicit for sleeping in a bunk room in an inn? Did you pay for a single room or did they only offer bunk rooms? Did you pay before or after sleeping?
A video about Roman contact with Vietnam would be really interesting.
I would be fascinated on a video explaining the Chinese name for Western kingdoms
I wonder if the later directions are meant to go around the other way.
Perhaps "Da- chin" is supposed to be "Dacia" (the start of the Roman Empire).
Maybe he’s talking about Athens rather than Rome. The time sailing and the size would have been more accurate
You miss the part in the end where he commented that this is a compilation of stories regarding those countries in the west which he heard from others like traders.
Honestly i like this better than just having the primary script read out loid
12:17 I think this could be Roman belief that they were descended from Trojans? Maybe in Italy, romans tried to explain to a chinese merchant that their ancestors came from the east and the merchant took that to mean they came from China?
I'm interested by the description given later in the text of Roman currency - "one gold coin is worth ten silver coins". Which coins are being described, one wonders...
10:08 I think that "The 36 appointed leaders" probably refers not to the Senate but rather to the magistrates (Caensors, Consuls, Aedils, Praetors, and Quaestors), which in the late republic and empire amounted to about 36 in total. Their effective functions and power varied during the times, but crucially had the power of oppositio (a kind of veto) with respect to the decisions of their colleagues and the decisions of the inferior magistrate colleges.
Which website is that were you can see medival travel distances. Please comment
I think the reference about the Emperors being deposed is not just a memory of the Consuls and the Republic. By Chinese standards, the Romans were very quick about removing or disempowering incompetent or malicious Emperors and relatively open about saying, once the Emperor is gone, "he was either incompetent or malicious so we got rid of him." To a Chinese person this would be utterly bizarre as the Emperor was not just a man but a divine being blessed by heaven, you were not supposed to look at him directly, you had to walk in a special manner before him, etc. Until Diocletian the Emperor was a very important man, but just a man.
It would not be bizarre, a incompetent emperor would not be blessed by the heavens.
Unlike Roman Emperors had martial prowess, Chinese Emperors usually do not hold martial prowess.
Well i guess it's unjust to expect accuracy from this, for the following points:
- The translation from this old Chinese language to modern English
- A Chinese would have problems or maybe would not be able to communicate at all with the Latin Romans and all the other languages of the empire so most of it would be wild guess or bullshit told from the translators, who depending of its origin and opinions could demonize, diminish or deify and glorify it.
-Yu Huan could have never visited Rome, and it just gathered a bunch of histories and tales from the silk road, which would explain why his information was outdated in comparison to the year of 250. (by the way there are people who say that Marco Polo had never gone to China, and got it's knowledge from the same method.)
what if the stories from china are the truth for they are one of the begining of time what if rome tales are lies for your making assumptions based only off what been told heck people today still dont understand german truths passed through the lifetimes........... one persons spin on what he thinks is truth you didnt live then dont remember a lifetime from then do not tell us whatis and what isnt for only one there can trully know
@@antlerr Your theory is also valid, de omnibus dubitandum est.
As a western my thoughts and points of view are inevitable biased.
@@cucabeludo4876 te amo Deus semper
@@cucabeludo4876 my family comes from germania im related to Herman the German stories past through the years are told to the family as verbal diary's of are past relations
At 12:20 i think that mighte be a translation thing. i think they are talking about the clothing leaving china and coming from china.
I wish there was such text telling about the life in the deepest Pax Romana that there ever was.
Important correction regarding bamboo arundo donax is a mediterranic plant or at least grows in it for milenia. So in this chinese were right.
Id say, the merchant who was writing his accounts of Rome seems to have stayed somewhere East, and traded and took the rest from hearsay.
The writer here never left China
One thing you know, he could have old information from Rome? Like information has to travel with the merchants and travelers
It looks like he ripped much "detail" such as there was from an earlier report by Gan Ying who aimed to visit the Roman Empire during 97 CE - the reign of Emperor He of Han & Emperor Nerva of Rome, hammering it into a template that China would understand & yet not appear too prosperous or imposing compared to their own Kingdom
Gan Ying probed as far as the Western Sea, which is either the Persian Gulf or the Black Sea, put off from travelling further by the Parthians horror stories of the hardships involved He may have believed that Antioch (At the time a hugely prosperous city with many great buildings) was the capital, possibly through misunderstandings, possibly through eastern Greek speakers being a bit pissy about their Western compatriots
He himself could have picked up a few confusing tales of Consular elections, which the Romans still paid some lip service to in the Early Empire, far less so by the Third Century
Some discrepancies could be based on exaggerations and gossips from sailors and merchants not interested in telling a stranger from the Far East the real truth and situation of the Roman Empire...
if haixi （ egypt) is 海西 (Western Sea, i.e. the Med.) then haibei is most likely 海北 （Black Sea)
海ocean 西 4/west 北 north.
I wish I had the source in Chinese preferably as a parallel text...
This “all great men come from us” is very familiar.
I wish we could have had an account of Romans and Chinese people bonding over how much they hate central Asia.
Like French and Scottish toward British?
@@MrSafior or the scottish and the scottish hating the scottish.
@@MrSafior *English
Now somebodys gotta go behind this fellow and see how correct he is
At 3:37 I wonder if he really said "CUT directly across"?