What Everyone Gets Wrong About Elder Scrolls Lore
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2024
- Avoid these 3 Big Mistakes you can make when learning about Elder Scrolls Lore, and how to avoid them.
0:00 - Introduction
1:48 - Misconception 1
7:30 - Misconception 2
12:18 - Misconception 3
17:15 - IMPORTANT
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The most common mistake of amateur loremasters is to link every theory to the Dwemer.
ThE DweMer CreAtEd mUd CrAbS
Top comment for sure
It's something a dwemer would write
@@SsjRedneck I honestly thought this comment would be downvoted as quickly as claims of Stormcloak racism. Based on the number of theories I see linking the dwemer to everything from the Hists to the Greybeards, I assumed there was a plurality that loved dumb dwemer theories. I'm glad to know others also role their eyes at these theories.
My favorite Dwemer theory is that they are all soul trapped inside of Numidium
I've heard it said that the truth of the lore is best determined by where it comes from. In order, these are:
1) In game events
2) In game dialog
3) In game books
4) Out of game advertising
5) Out of game developer statements
6) Out of game fanbase theories
7) Out of game online comments
8) My uncle's best friend's cousin's inebriated ramblings
9) My posts
Wasn't it Todd Howard who said that? I swear that came out of a Skyrim panel.
@@michag4337 nah pretty sure this is from an in-game book
Point n.8 is the only reliable source.
Im confused,so dont belive this comment?
The exception being the Thalmor towers theory in which it's fine to base everything on a wiki edit with zero links to lore.
As someone with a PhD in anthropology, Elder Scrolls lore is some of my favorite fictional lore by far! It’s surrounded by conjecture, multiversal thought, and contradictory evidence that leads to some of the most engaging conversations regarding lore I’ve ever had!
Also, it's inspired by many different cultures. For example, the concepts of the kalpas and the Godhead come from Hinduism, if I'm not mistaken
Neat, I’m slowly working towards my AA in Anth
My man got his PhD in Saarthal.
U should learn world of warcraft lore too!!!
And If you haven't started 40k lore...I'd get some prescriptions lined up.
The biggest mistake would be not extrapolating the entrity of your TES lore knowledge from the pages of the "Lusty Argonian Maid."
source: Uncle Crassius said so
@@Graknorke Source source: The Lusty Argonian Maid V3
Mistaking the Hall of Countenance for the Hall of Attainment.
🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ "shit where is Tolfdir again?"
@@PrinceIsot lol happens too many times 😅
It doesn’t matter because the person you were looking for was in the Arcaneum the whole time (unless you looked there first)
I love how you have to wait until everyones asleep to reliably find the skill trainers. Waking them up for 5 levels
About the drauger in bloodmoon, that was the skaals belief that the drauger became cannibals. The mainland Nords believed they served the dragon priests.
Maybe it's just a general curse the nords put on people, like a spiritual punishment, for the skaal it was cannibalism gor the mainland nords it was dragon worship
They might be both, if we consider the fact that they are zombies
@@justsomeonepassingby3838he’s saying there isn’t an inconsistency and that Frudgemuppet broke one of his own rules when he thought there was one, namely, he forgot about the unreliable narrator.
@@jordanrudderham7981 and i meant that bethesda themselves may have forgot to care about the lore (not that they necessarily made a mistake) while using the draugr models for every ancient corpse or undead humanoid.
I don't really care about lore anymore, but if i remember correctly, there are cases where the draugr models are used for what should have been zombies in game (like the dead loving harem master mage whose name i forgot)
Is there a Morrowind/Bloodmoon source stating that? Because that sounds like a retcon or rather an ad-hoc explanation.
Dragon Priests didn't exist in TESIII after all.
Honestly, we need a series that explains how each part of the lore changed over the years/games. I was shocked to learn that Talos wasn’t a divine in Daggerfall, only being introduced as a result of the Warp in the West.
I mean you work for him in that game, right?
@@jstar3382 No, you work for the dude who gets assassinated at the start of Oblivion. Uriel Septim VII I believe his name was.
To me, the biggest mental hurdle to overcome was wrapping my head around just how literal many of the myths and legends in the TES lore are, even when they go against everything we know about our own world.
Most contemporary fantasy universes still adhere to real life physics and biology, just with some added supernatural elements like magic and souls. But a star is still a star, a volcano is still a volcano, and an animal is still an animal. Not so in TES, where stars are literal holes in the literal firmament, geothermic phenomena are fueled by the actual heart of an actual god, evolution through natural selection plays a very minor role in the creation of new species, and the line between inanimate matter, living organisms, and incorporeal spirits is extremely blurry.
It's a very "classical" take on the genre, and is complicated by the fact that newer entries in the franchise tend to lean more towards softening the fantastical elements in favor of a more grounded, "modern" approach.
I think the biggest hurdle you've yet to pass,is realizing that this is all made up nonsense,and you've literally wasted away many hours of your life on something that's not even real.Thats the entire theme of elderscrolls.Its literally known as the Elder Trolls games among the people I know.The whole plot line hinges on the idea of you as the player wasting your time,allowing the world to exist by you as the player experiencing it.Theyre literally telling you're wasting your time,and that the world you're playing in only exists because you're spending time away from the REAL world you live in.
The thing that is really going to blow your mind is that as far as our world is concerned we used to believe in things just as fantastical and weird before the 19th century or so. For all we know, in the Elder Scrolls stars are in fact still stars, volcanos might still just be volcanos (that happen to have the heart of a god underneath) and evolution might still play a role albeit not in the way we assume it would (actual magic would obviously fuck with that principle quite a bit), all the lore regarding these fantastical elements might just be the same type of nonsense human cultures used to believe in back before all of our current scientific theories came to be. I just love it.
@@jeffdroog Video game bad.
@Jeffrey Droog The time I've spent playing TES and the stories I've made in it will always have been worth it to me and I will never regret those memories, nor will my enthusiasm about learning about it's lworld and lore ever diminish. Time is only wasted if you believe it to be so.
@@jeffdroog bruh take a chill pill and go play elder scrolls. You’ll feel better.
Hearing Heimskr gives me the urge to crouch, hide and nock an arrow 😆
is there a mod that makes heimskr's dialogue to talos the lusty argonian maid volumes 1-3?
I want a mod where upon first arriving in Whiterun, you witness Heimskr being violently, viciously, and graphically gang-lynched by all of Whiterun, and when bringing up the subject to Jarl Balgruuf, he admits that was technically illegal and the guard should have stopped it, but no one could be bothered to because it was Heimskr. As well, I'd like this mod to include NPC dialogue saying that everything in Whiterun improved afterwards because emissaries were actually willing to go to the Cloud District, and thus inter-hold relations and commerce improved dramatically; more people were willing to actually come out of their homes and go to work, improving many of the most basic functions of society, and finally the guard became CONSIDERABLY less irate in general.
Alternate Title: Scott(?) talks about fundamental mistakes made in early FudgeMuppet lore videos for 18 minutes.
I think its remarkable how much their process has evolved and progressed over the years. Imo, they've become much clearer about making sure to impress the ambiguity present in every aspect of TES lore, and not presenting anything as hard fact, as well as presenting evidence to make us view the subject of their lore theory videos with more skepticism. This is all excellent, as it more closely mirrors how real world history and mythology are studied. Unreliable narrators abound, and you have to look at the totality of the information present, including context of the time, in order to draw anything resembling a conclusion.
The Elder Scrolls lore is basically like Tolkien's The Silmarillion. The coolest shit happened there and we will never see them.
Really excellent video. Personally, I think the inconsistent narrator phenomenon is one of the coolest things about this universe. In our own real world, history is told by the winners and colored by their perspective, until what we acknowledge as fact may never have even happened at all. That the lore and history of this world is treated the same way makes it feel very realistic and actually ENHANCES my immersion, rather than detract from it with "plot holes" as so many complain.
It’s genuinely crazy how so many of the lore community treat what’s essentially Kirkbrides fanfiction as actual canon solely because he used to write for TES
And because its _good_ fanfiction, and because his official work for Redguard/Morrowind/Oblivion is some of the most interesting worldbuilding in the series, and because his writing gels with the broader worldbuilding from Julian Lefay and Ted Peterson... Reductive comment.
@@___.51fanfiction being interesting still doesn't make it canon no matter how much you want that to be the case, which is the point of the comment you're replying to.
@@knives-eq9rn no that wasn’t the point of the original comment you are incorrect
@@___.51 explain to me how i'm incorrect then. because all i'm seeing is you getting defensive after someone called michael kirkbride's current work precisely what it is, fanfiction.
@@knives-eq9rn who called what fanfiction?
Not all retcons are created equally.
Oblivion retconned Cyrodiil because the technology at the time couldn't replicate Cyrodiil the way it was described in the lore.
Morrowind retconned the Bosmer for literally no reason.
yeah the cyrodiil jungle one doesn't bother me both because it was born out of technical limitations and because they give an interesting in universe explanation for the change.
similarly the khajiit variants. it's a piece of lore that was created pretty much entirely to justify the massive redesign khajiits underwent in morrowind, but it's an incredible explanation that adds a lot to the khajiits.
honestly as silly as it is the one that always stuck in my head as annoying, despite debatably not being a retcon, is the nords caring so much about talos in skyrim despite seeing him as just a god of the imperials in oblivion.
@@miss_baphomet I think the bit about nords and talos is actually pretty realistic, and funny to boot. It's not uncommon for people our world to post-hoc justify why they are the true heirs of x faith, or y nation, or z ideology.
@@yamitrap9688 Thinking about it, you're right. Ulfric could be using Talos to justify his war when in truth he's just ashamed of what he believes was his part in the Dominion winning the Great War. Talos worship wasn't so common in Skyrim after the end of the Great War so the Dominion didn't occupy Skyrim as heavily since why would they need to? It's not until Talos worship increased in the province that they felt they needed to step in. It also explains why so many people in Skyrim are just so apathetic to the outlawing of Talos too. You would think in a nation where you are being told you can't worship your God more people would be up in arms about it, but no, they aren't.
@@miss_baphometI always thought nords rallying behind Talos was purely because the thalmor said not to do it. The same has happened through out IRL history.
@@xFukairixYeah that probably seems most right, plus if they were "True sons and daughters of Skyrim" they'd be pissed that barely anyone seems to actively worship the main nord gods like Shor and Kyne
The biggest thing to understand is: If you are interested in the lore of The Elder Scrolls series, you already care waaaaay more about the lore than the people actually writing it.
Extremely grounded take. World building is fun and all, but why bother when your customers will do it for free.
Another one I would like to add! Nearly all our knowledge on Maormer prior to Elder Scrolls Online was taken from a very CLEARLY FABRICATED work of historical fiction. Now, ESO added some pretty good stuff on Maormer and you should check it out.
Nothing from eso is good nor should it be taken as real lore eso is a slap in the face to elder scrolls lore
@@elvangulley3210 I have to figure you haven’t read much of it.
@@elvangulley3210 if it’s published by Bethesda and has the Elder Scrolls name, it is canon and is real lore
@@elvangulley3210 Imagine trying to be a gatekeeper on something you understand so little about
@@elvangulley3210 I mean, dude, I'll admit to disliking some of the stuff ESO did, but I've been hating some lore retcons since Oblivion made Cyrodiil a temperate forest (yes, yes, I know, CHIM. Speaking from a strictly Doylist perspective), but the Clockwork DLC has Kirkbride's seal of approval.
Honestly, part of the fun of this entire game franchise is the crazy lore and mythology that stems from it.
i remember being young, and seeing my older cousin playing Oblivion.
He was a vampire, and i remember him hiding in the shadows during the day, and i just thought that was the coolest shit ever.
that game legit changed my "life" in a lot of ways, set the bar for RPGs absurdly high as well lol.
11:02 Crazy thought but while you're arguing how creative Azura is, I'm thinking what the text for Daedra actually means if Daedra are clearly capable of creation on that scale, given that they create variants of Daedra races and even their domains. But maybe it's being literal. Maybe the difference between the two, Aedra and Daedra, is more then just foundational. I don't know about you but it really seems like the Daedra are way more active on Mundis. If Aedra and Daedra were the same, divided only by perspective of the elves, then Aedra should be just as prevalent and common in the games.
So what if there is a reason for that? What if the reason Azura and other Daedra are considered others is because they cannot Create, capital C. They cannot spin something from nothing, or from their own divine essence. Daedra use the pools of energy and chaos in their realms, seething primal power, to give body and form to their people, and their realm is less something they made and more something they warped.
The Aedra can Create, but are unable to alter what they've made very directly or interact with it. But the Daedra did not Create, nor can they. Instead they can Change and Alter, which is why they are so prevalent in the games compared to the Aedra. The Daedra can interact with us because they are allowed to change and alter Mundis, but the Aedra cannot to the same degree.
Nice
I'd argue that both can't create outta nothing, rather they can only create from what they themselves are. So basically subscribing to the most common aldmeri story, where the aedra became the mundus and thus are what interact with us the most, by defining what reality is. Remember in the aurbis reality is anything, unlike mundus which is defined by the forces of nature-basically aedra. The daedra don't wanna put their essence in completely so what they do isn't exactly a law of nature but rather something unnatural. That's why they can do whatever they want in their own realm-they are their realm and hence the law of nature.
I have other questions about that divide. Like if Daedra are really able to be more active because they haven’t given up some of their power for creation, then why can later created Daedra like Malacath or Meridia still function?
You know you're at the top of your field when you make videos teaching other creators! ❤
One of the best examples of the "unreliable narrator" is Calcemo, the so-called expert on the Dwemer, saying that it is not sure when exactly the Dwemer disappeared, while literally everything in the lore says that it happened during the Battle of Red Mountain.
Sure, we don't know the precise date at which the battle happened, only that it was around 1E 700. But it's not like we didn't know anything about the context or the cause of their disappearance.
Here is a theory, Dagoth Ur is an aspect of Azura. Since his "goals" eventually are achieved following the downfall of the Tribunal and the events of Oblivion. Not to mention that bringing the main downfall to the Tribunal and punishing them for their betrayal fits into why Dagoth is there and sets in motion the Nerevarine prophecy.
One of the goals of both Azura and the Nerevarine prophecy was to defeat not only the Tribunal, but also the awakening Sixth House. Many verses among oral and written textes related to the prophecy Talk about Dagoth Ur and his House as a curse tha the Nerevar reborn must stop.
So no, Dagoth Ur is one of the thing opposite to Azura and the prophecy
I think it he has a connection to anything it's Shezarr/Lorkhan/Sep/whatever. not just because of the literal connection to the heart but also the reflection of the common story of creation. the missing god used the bodies of the divine to build the mortal world, Shezarr / Lorkhan using the other Aedra, and Sep using the old skins of the world snake. Dagoth Ur meanwhile uses the flesh mortals and attempts to make the divine by turning it into corprus meat and using that to build a second Numidium. A flesh tower seems like even more of a finger up at the divines than the brass tower, a divine made not just BY mortals but FROM mortals, not even their souls but rather the mortal component of them, the part that dies.
The thing I love about the Elder Scrolls, lore or in game, is how much we can learn and discover. Theories can be debated, and new evidence can be found through reading books and finding hidden structures
To the point of Daedra not being able to create vs the Aedra - I think the way that's implied to work is that Daedra can make a sword from metal, but only the Aedra can make metal exist in the first place.
The aedra are the reason the material plane exists at all, the daedra are aetherial entities that cling to the edges of material reality but gave nothing to its creation
8 Divines? Not sure I can take seriously anyone who denies the divinity of Talos.
It's an excellent point about things shouldn't be taken at face value. I'm currently replaying Morrowind, and I forgot how much of the game revolves around the different narratives surrounding what "really" happened at Red Mountain after the Dwemer disappeared, and the Heart of Lorkhan was discovered.
I love coming back and watching the Fudgemuppet videos I’ve missed every 6 months 🎉
I love the contradictory nature of the lore, it somewhat reflects how people disagree on the scientific vs religious hypotheses regarding the creation of Earth, but way more complicated
I LOVE that you guys are RECAPPING the points once spoken of.
I find these videos vastly entertaining, but sometimes the voice and pacing of whoever is reading makes me zone out and I miss what is happening.
Please keep that trend going. Recapping explicitly the points gone over (when Relevant).
Just my two septims. 😅
Something important to take into account is that the series is called Elder Scrolls. Meaning that it's possible that the events of the games that we are playing are events that are being told on an Elder Scrolls. And the thing about the Elder Scrolls is that they ar ever changing. What is written in them can change. Sometimes, the Scrolls themselves can occasionally go missing, but they eventually show back up. This would explain the unreliable narrator, the inconsistent lore, and even the Dragonbreaks at the very least of the metaphysical stuff. Maybe not everything else.
You three guys videos are great love em they really have helped me to become way more knowledgeable of the elder Scrolls franchise as a whole so thank you I really like watching videos of video gaming lore and you guys have loads 💯
1:12 “and watching thousands of hours of Fudgemuppet videos.” Man I love this channel
Thanks for the great video as always. I know I posted this on another video but since it was brought up in this one I'd like to discuss the Warp in the West again, or the misleadingly named Miracle of Peace. The name almost seems to imply that the citizens of the Iliac Bay woke up to find themselves under the banner of Daggerfall, Wayrest, Orsinium, or Sentinel; and I confess that's the impression I get whenever I hear it discussed on this channel. However, when reading The Warp in the West you find that the event was quite the calamity. On Frostfall 9th 3E417 the Iliac bay was riddled with devastation both from natural disasters as well as massive battles instantly taking place; not to mention 4 Numidiums wreaking havoc as they fought each other (I say four as Septim used his in another territory and the Underking's likely shut down as he passed). To try and keep this from being a huge wall of text: Point is that it was a catastrophe, not a gentle reshaping but one through fire and death.
"The catastrophic destruction of landscape and property and the large loss of life attending upon this miracle is understood to have been 'tragic, and beyond mortal comprehension.'" Ulvius Tero, The Warp in the West
Edit: I forgot to mention Mannimarco in my list of Numidiums, I'd assume his shut down after he used the Mantella to become a god.
That "source: me." really made me chuckle 😂
I believe it was Michael Kirkbride himself who said that the identity of TES Lore, that which makes it distinct, is its ambiguity, and that that shouldn't be changed.
Personally, I think one of the biggest traps is assuming that the Daedra automatically claim your soul just because you ran an errand that they were incapable of doing on their own due to the liminal barriers.
That's been established though. We've literally gone to at least one of their realms in literally all of the Bethesda era games and met mortals that were claimed by the Daedra
@@niedude I'm not saying that they can't claim a soul; I just don't think running an errand for a Daedra necessarily means that they're entitled to your soul.
I mean, if that was the case, then wouldn't the Daedra be going apeshit over every Dunmer who worshiped Azura, Mephala, and Boethia simultaneously? Some of them were certainly heroes, too.
The Princes are probably looking at the various heroes of the Elder Scrolls as tools and little more. You have to remember that all of our heroes, from the Eternal Champion to the Last Dragonborn, aren't much when compared to a Daedric Prince. Moreover, their deeds aren't necessarily impressive or even memorable when you're dealing with sentient forces of nature from the beginning of existence.
@@Dilapsor
I think capital H Heroes would be a special case anyway. they are by nature not so subject to destiny and fate and all that compared to normal people, so their souls likewise wouldn't be so easily won
@@Dilapsor They often proclaim you their champion though, and we do see some examples where stuff like Vampirism is heavily implied to push you into Coldharbour when you die without intervention by another Daedra (Azura's Oblivion quest), etc.
That said, we still don't fully understand the mechanism for where exactly you go to even if you HAVEN'T interacted with Daedra. Does everyone actually go to the Dreamsleeve by default, with all the other afterlives we see simply being pocket dimensions of Oblivion? Does each culture have somewhere that its people are sent to (Sovngarde for Nords, Far Shores etc), or do you go where you believe you'll go? I personally think it's the last, so barring supernatural claims like Vampirism, you wouldn't go to Apocrypha unless you not only worshipped Hermy but ALSO strongly believed you WILL go to Apocrypha when you die, ditto Sovngarde for Nords, etc. Maybe your soul "chooses" by your desires, deeds, and beliefs in life.
@@JB-xl2jc Yeah I also think it's the last one. Basically the idea that if many people believe in it it becomes true in the universe. Like how auriel the elf god became akatosh the time dragon because there were enough worshippers. So I think people just go to the afterlife they believe in and if enough people subscribe to the same thought, it becomes more real. Then i assume people who don't believe in anything just vanish or something.
Great video and much needed - thank you for your work.
I find this funny because when I first found your channel I was very skeptical of your lore videos xD ❤ love you Fudge Muppet
FudgeMuppet is like a Moth Priest deciphering the lore and machinations of an Elder Scroll to us common folk.
You guys should make a “the storyteller build” conjugation mage/bard!
I was living in idaho and baby sitting my cousins. My uncle had a ps3 and just so happened to have tes4:oblivion. Had never heard of that game but i knew bethesda because of the cthulhu game. Gave it a shot and it changed my life.
My personal theory on CHIM:
CHIM
MICH
Mich
Michael
Probably an allusion to Michael Kirkbride changing the story and setting over the many games' development. As a writer you are the god-king of a setting and can magically change it at will...CHIM means "royalty". I think it was a small and fun self-insert is all.
*Michael from fudgemuppet
Chim also means "change" as in the "changed elves" (Chimer)
I figured it was a play on "Chimera", which would describe Vivec's biology and can also mean something abstract or unobtainable (like Chim)
@@JH-fb3mp Quite possibly. Though, a chimera is a state of being, not change, but a union and melding. CHIM is a mode, path, and state and a bunch of other metaphysical stuff. Vivec is definitely a chimera of the old and the new, duality, and everything in between. So, again, quite possibly.
@@GunGun-cf3ss Confirmed, fren
I understand the intro so much, also started with Oblivion...the Game of the Year version in particular. "The Reign of the Septims", or the title screen music from Oblivion, originally struck me as just an epic song for Epic Fantasy...but by the time of Skyrim, I was so jazzed about how the song of the Septims (Dragonborn Emperors) was retroactively based upon the Song of the Dragonborn
Hey, FudgeMuppet love your videos can you update your vampire temptress build?
the fact that i got an ad right after you said "you have to take the unreliable -" and i'm assuming was going to finish with narrator but instead i had a lady whisper "sweet tarts" into my ear i -
This is a brilliant video, and an excellent conclusion. I get so tired of online “loremasters” that don’t seem to have this very fundamental understanding of TES. Unreliable narration is the primary reason I have so much fun with the Elder Scrolls.
Darn it I am so invested in Skyrim memes that I can't hear heimskyrs sermon without hearing "I am ass man"
The metaphysics in this series are mostly just based on real world spirituality, especially Buddhism, Hinduism, and the modern psychedelic movement. Reading up on that stuff even if you don't believe in it can give a lot of perspective on the wackier lore in this series. It's not all just weird for the sake of it
Fantasy as a genre is a modern blending/reconstituting of old mythological ideas. It's often not all that hard to see the historical roots of fantasy books/movies/games.
better examples would be real world paganism
Elder scrolls and Warhammer 40k. Two franchises where everything said is either nonsense or taken with a grain of salt. I like it.
We all know that Imperium sanctioned reading is 10000% canon and everything else is Xeno propaganda
@@Spike2276 I'm reporting OP to the nearest Inquisitor for the heresy of suggesting that the Imperium may lie
Before I die I want to play Elder Scrolls 6 and listen to your videos about it! I’m 51 years old, I’ll try to stay alive for next 7-10 years
Elder Scrolls 6? How about Skyrim: Century edition?
Ministrel's lament always relaxes my soul.
How has the lore of this series not driven you all insane? I binged all your lore videos and learned Elder Scrolls lore while recovering from an injury and I think it’s damaged my mind 😅
Fr especially after basically being told "Well we could be completely wrong so better hope everything you understand about this lore is correct" it's just mad to wrap your head around
TES lore : Stop taking everything so literally 😡
Also TES lore : Memory shapes reality 😊
Bing chat:
r/teslore: everything I come up is Canon!
I think the difference between creation and change is that creation is to make something that didn't exist. That is to cause something to be made out of nothing, it just enters existence via the will of a god. Change is about manipulation. Take something that exists, and change it into something else. So the origin of a thing that is changed actually pre-existed it's changed form, sort of like the myth of the philosopher stone. It turns one matter (lead) into another (gold), but you have to attain lead to process into gold.
The moment I hear the music, I want to play it IMMEDIATELY ❤
Great stuff.
The fact that CHIM is actually just a weird ancient type word that means "royalty" is messing me up. I thought I was a loremaster for knowing all this weird metaphysical stuff. q.q
I mean, when you say 'just' it makes it sounds small, but it's a word that when written cannot be read by 99.9% of mortals. That's some spicy eldritch soup if you ask me.
@@yamitrap9688 So more like the real life concept of Enochian, the language of the angels. Neat!
Sub-creation was a term used by J.R.R. Tolkien for a philosophical concept that he applied to all aspects of his life, including his work on the legendarium. It described the inclination of all living beings to create things within the primary world (i.e. the physical world in which they inhabit), using materials and experiences derived from the primary world. The primary world in this framework came to exist through an act of true creation - that is to say the creation of something from nothing.
Misconception 4: Michael Kirkbride is a legitimate source
If you need a definition of creation vs change I recommend taking a look at a book on Aristotle’s thought on the topic. You could also look at the medieval philosophical term “creatio ex nihilo”
Hey fudgemuppet, is there any way at all I could see your modlist if so that would be awesome
Hey fudge keep up the good work😁
This is PERFECT.
Question EVERYTHIN'
I Totally Think You Guys Should Remaster Your Build: The Nightingale. It would be Amazing!!!
Cool video, it's weird didn't get the notification though lol
I blame mans1ay3r that I can't hear Heimskr not referring to himself as an ass-man.
I'M JARL BALGRUUF! AND I BE BALLIN'! SWAG!
Fudgemuppet question if you were reborn in elder scrolls what race and what build would you want to be
Maybe we should do a video on this for fun
Yeah, I knew the lore was inconsistent when it had been established that Y’ffree created the green pact with the bosmer, but some parts of ESO (in Grahtwood, at least) said it was Hircine. I remember getting so confused by that and I realized that the lore, though amazing, is not infallible.
10:49 I've heard creating is bringing something into existence out of nothing; while making is bringing something into existence out of things which already exist. I think the question here is more of how new some product is.
I needed this more than I knew
Hey I would love it if you guys would make a spell knight build that would be amazing
What mods do you use to get Skyrim to look that way? Really like the way it looks
Assumptions upon Assumptions is a very Elder Scrolls thing when it comes to the Metaphysics.
I need that mod armor with the Aurelian style Roman Mask helmet
Anyways a good reminder - great video!
I don't think people give Michael Kirkbride enough praise. The man took heavy inspiration from real world metaphysical concepts and comparative mythology. I recall him mentioning in a Selectives Lorecast episode on Lorkhan how he was able to turn a standard pantheon of gods (originally just a Nine Divines kind of thing) into a dynamic interplay of forces by inventing Lorkhan. He didn't just throw the Missing God into the mix randomly; it was done so with a solid basis in real world paradigms.
Basic understanding of gnosticism will help one understand where the ES lore came from
He’s given quite enough praise and I think he’d be the first to tell you that. Don’t misunderstand me, the man is brilliant, sharp as a tack, but he’s nearly revered as the patron saint of these games, and though he definitely made huge contributions, there are three decades of writers who’ve contributed to the series - canon and in the wider community.
@@Crembaw Fair enough. 👍
@@Crembaw Regardless, I do hope future TES' metaphysics gives more emphasis to have more influences from his initial lore and eventual fan-lore, as it's giving really good diagram of how Elder Scrolls can go further into their end-game scenarios, instead of you know, being senselessly milked with terrible power-scaling (Even the latest DLC/installation of mainline Elder Scrolls lore have references to The Godhead with waking dreams' introduction posits consensus of Elder Scrolls world's being consensus of dreams' speculations from the subconscious of "the uncaring Godhead", the ES writers is clearly liking Kirkbride writings and put respects to it (alongside Sotha Sil dialogues in Elder Scrolls online that adds further to the metaphysical exploration of Vivec's esoteric journey), contrary to the detractors that tries to undermine either sides
Looking at you, Star Wars sequel trilogy, Warhammer 40K red-herrings and the entire SCP-foundation, those three are the severe cases of perpetual milking without direction, goal and better destination, no wonder people hyped manga series that have finales (despite their overwhelming amount of the medium's tropes and fanservices along the way), the key is to instigates the best of Tolkien, Dune, world religions and Faiths and tie the best of it with balances of highs and lows of spectacles with endgoals, instead of what the pitfalls of perpetually running high settings tend to be
@@Crembaw he is the Saint of the series. Gave you seen the crap that came after morrowind ? Todd has no respect for the lore or anything kirkbride made. And the writer is worse than a first grader. Even with all the stripped down rpg elements and shallow streamlining skyrim had. It could have been saved with kirkbrides writing. Just imagine how he would have written the home of the Nords. We were cheated because Todd wants to chase non rpg fans, fps dude bros, and people with the iq of 3.
The lore is whatever the writer/developers need it to be, that is why I never understand fan debates about the lore. As the lore and cannon will change when the designers need it to change.
Canon* is whatever zos and bgs decide not the fans.
I find it funny by the release of ES3: Morrowind that even the writers haven't decided what really happened at the Battle of Red Mountain.
Then you have the ESO writers who decided to throw in the Khajiit perspective to make things even more confusing.
Because it's fun.
Nice video bro
Though Aedra and Daedra may be biased perspectives, i do think it is interesting that there is an obvious distinction. It would be hard to truly argue they're the same when, while playing, you can interact directly with Daedra but not Aedra.
You literally see Akatosh materialize through Martin Septim in Oblivion, acting as directly as a (D)Aedra can in this world. Hell, everything about Alissia and the Emperor and their artifacts is a direct intervention of an Aedra, with the Amulet of Kings being made from an Aedra's literal blood.
There's also the shrines that you interact with and... give you magical blessings, a more direct and immediate effect than going to a Daedra's shrine to do an errand and get an artifact from them.
"Interaction" as a distinction between Aedra and Daedra is the worst limit to bring up as it's one of the few times we can see both affected by the same rules, just one "side" chooses to interact with Mundus less than the other.
I want to see a debate between Fudgemuppet and the nerds at Memospore!
lore is always satisfying. you know what else is satisfying? a peanut butter (crunchy) & Nutella sandwich (toasted).
1:25 i may be playing too much tears of the kingdom. I saw this and immediately wanted use ascend
Yeah, I needed this video.
I know it’s a hotly debated topic, whether the Last Dragonborn, Talos, Pelinal, Zurin, Wulfarth, etc are Shezarrines… people either really love the theory or don’t. I’ve personally found next to no people who are on the fence about it. I only consider myself one of the people on the fence because while I can rationalize with the logic put forth in this video that it is unlikely… man, I would be thrilled if there was more evidence supporting it. I think it’s such an exciting perspective.
Obviously Scott from FudgeMuppet has achieved CHIM. :D
Anyone else besides me just concluded that Druagr from Skyrim and those from Marrowind were just two types of same beings created through two different methods? Much like many types of Undead that the same or similar ends were reached through different methods. A Lich can be brought about in more than one way after all.
Is there a video or list of graphics mods u guys use?
that one mod that actually makes me wanna learn more about TES lore. what mod you asked?
VIGILANT
i hope this channel review it sometimes in the future, i can only hope. because the mod touches more on the lore than the base game itself when an average "skyrim only player" like me, only thought that skyrim is just some ye olde scandinavian medieval fantasy crap with some basic lore about witches, dragons and such LMAO. turns out, theres so much more otherwordly shit like a crossbreed between a man-bull and a certain empress (lmao), the badass pelinal, shezarrines, guns, cyborg jyggalag/sheo maybe lmao idk.
and vigilant really opens my eyes about the deep grotesque part of TES lore specifically( like ayleid flesh art wtfff!!, and among other things). and the best part is, the mod is not afraid to really bring it up in front of your eyes rather than just a hints or facts on tomes and books and rumors from some random npcs( like seriously, the effd up situation with a certain first vampire stuff, where dawnguard too afraid to expose, just *chef's kiss*).
but of course with a lil twist on the modder itself. but since the mod includes a certain dragonbreak, well i say, anything can happen really and i can totally say its super lore friendly.
like how can a mod makes me wanna dig deep down into the TES lore itself where the base game failed miserably, or rather misled the audiences. truly, like now i know about dreams, dagoth ur and facts about et'ada(well its not from the mod) but all thanks to that mod that triggers it the first time.
Thanks Micheal
Did Aringoth from the Goldenglow Estate use Mehrunes Razor to change himself from a Bosmer to an Altmer?
Or is this a mistake? Why are people saying that inconsistencies aren’t mistakes from the writers?
How would Aringoth get a hold of Mehrunes Razor? It was disassembled after the Mythic Dawn cult was hunted down and destroyed. It has been in pieces until the Dragonborn puts it back together. Unless they then give it to Aringoth there is no way that they could have had or used it. I checked and it's still sitting in my nightstand in Breezehome.
@@emrek99205 he got it during a dragon break in the great war
Source: it was revealed to me in a dream
@@emrek99205it’s obvious that the game developers made a mistake assigning Aringoth to be an Altmer, because the members of the Thieves Guild refer to him as a Bosmer.
So I made a joke he use the razor to change himself to an Altmer. The same way Mankar Camoran did.
Nah, that was the Skyrim Witness Protection Program. Gave him a new name, some hair dye and a pair of high heel boots.
0:36
Hey that was me with Morrowind
I know this is not related the video at all but can someone PLEASE tell me how to get the veterans war axe for the viking build because I can not figure out how to get it
What if I believe that MK's works are canon because they were quite often referenced in games and he was working on Elder Scrolls as a contractor after leaving Bethesda so I don't think that every single thing he writes needs to be confirmed canon in games separately?
Does anyone know what armor mod is being used at 2:43?
Can you guys help me with the anniversary pack for skyrim. I need help with Ghosts of the tiburnal
Hey Scott & everyone, can I ask for some advice? I recently found an Elder Scrolls fan TTRPG (a D&D5e conversion mostly) and I want to build a campaign set in Cyrodiil in 4E 16. Is there anything you can recommend I should do?
I was looking at a 4E timeline & picked this year because it seems the most unstable. Still have tons of dunmer reeling from the Red Year and now Orsinium was just sacked so tons of refugees & immigrants to the country. The empire is totally unstable without an emperor and chaos can ensue. And since it's so far from Skyrim I can make it feel inline with canon without having to shout "Dragon Break." Also almost no characters from Skyrim will appear & most characters from Oblivion are past their canon.
Absolutely read the Elder Scrolls Novels by Gregory Key. It is set in 4E 48, but they reference what went on the 10s and 20s of the 4th Era multiple times, such as Bravil and Leyawiin earning their independence.
5e.....ewwww....
@@WolfLykaios Thank you, that is something I never heard of before.
12:18 I was so creeped out here
Can’t wait to watch! Will you guys be making a follow up to your Ideal Skyrim video? I’d love to know what your ideas for a storyline would be.
I feel like this was made specifically for me haha. Thanks for the advice.
Something that never made sense to me, was that the elves (mainly altmer) see the moral realm as a curse so to speak. So why do they revere the aedra that were dumb enough to be tricked. Versus the daedra which, while the aren't directly decended from, should be considered distant relatives since the only thing that separates aedra and daedra, is their participation in the creation of the mortal realm.
Why does anyone put stock in Gnosticism
@@Makarosc Victim complex's usually.
@@yamitrap9688 thought it was vanity
@@Makarosc That's it right there. Tiber Septim's goal wasn't to become a god. It was probably the furthest thing from his mind when he was alive. Dagon Ur and the Thalmor on the other hand clearly have the mentality of "kill them all and become a god!" That crosses the line from vanity to straight up arrogance.
@@Makarosc I think the two are often interwoven.
I've really been wondering lately where Michael is. It seems that majority of the channel is just Scott now? Unless Michael is on more of the behind the scenes stuff