When my ears were young and not buzzy speakers were crappy. Now my ears are crappy and my speakers are great (X- statiks). Thanks for the videos and my speakers GR research.
Today is a disaster because of existing measuring equipment reveals it, but in 1978 compare to other speakers they sounded great, the good news is with this great job Danny did they can sound much better ;)
I bought a pair of HPM60s new in 1976. Blew the woofers at a frat party in 1980. Replaced the woofers with some from Frasier in Dallas. Been using them continuously for almost 50 years! Now using them in my garage to rock the neighborhood. Looking forward to the HPM60 video.
I remember all vintage speakers very well. They sounded killer when I was in my teens! Not so much when your older. Great job! Kudos on you schooling OCD Mikey on the Magnapan! 😊
I feel so bad for you, Danny. These old speakers are huge headaches to deal with. Thank you for your dedication and patience and doing the best you can with these beasts.
When I worked at Motown Hitsville Studios (Los Angeles) in the late 70's early 80's, these speakers were used all the time. They would sit up on a shelf on top of the consoles as near field monitors. I can't begin to list the albums mixed on these speakers, I constantly found the mid range drivers connected out of phase on some and not on others. Whether they came like that from the factory I had no idea but I had to go through and get them all to match. They were horrible but recording engineer theory was if you could get mix to sound good on them, they'll sound good on the radio.
This explains perfectly why a good portion of the music I liked from the 70's and 80's sounds so incredibly bad on a very revealing system. Thank you for verifying my suspicions of JBL my whole life. No matter which one I listened to, there was always an alternative I would have chose instead. There was just a tonality to them unpleasing to my ear. To me the Infinity's of that time had a much better sound. It could very well be that the Infinity's measured even worse. I don't know, but to me that was the sound I've been after my whole life.
I always watch right to the end! Another great upgrade and very interesting to see the filler driver applied like that! And what a huge bass driver, I would've expected to keep ringing more than it did. I was just thinking of pouring epoxy into the front to level out the front, that would alter the vintage speaker, but it might deal with the diffraction a little better.
I think is one of your best videos and upgrades this one and the HPM100, you said a great true about in the late 70's there were not measuring equipment like TEF to help designers in making the ideal crossovers and that's why this vintage speakers can be improve vastly with your work, anyone owning a JBL 4311 would be glad to pay those 730 dollars in order to make their 4311 to sing much better, I was waiting at the end that you say that after the new crossover you like a lot this speaker, maybe some day another guy bring you the L-112 which is a bit better than the 4311, thanks for this job
But still… back in the day I used these speakers as monitors for recording and mixing music professionally and guess what… I loved them! Of course they weren’t perfect, but they gave me mixes that translated very well to other systems and radio/tv. I had a hard time finding replacements when the time came… And I have to say that I enjoyed working with them. If I’d still have a pair I would certainly try your upgrade kit for sure…
Sure. These were a good representation of the generally bad speaker designs of that time period. That is why the Yamaha book shelf monitors were popular in the 80s and 90s. The yamaha sounded like boom box speakers, so a good idea of your mix on pretty bad playback systems.
@@morlidor Absolutely not. I don't know if you watched the video. These are very very poorly "designed" speakers, with junk thrown into a cheap box. Sound really good? Depends if you want to hear what is on the recording. Elac B5's sound good and fun, but they do not remotely let you hear what is in the recording. No transparent window into the recording. Not even close.
That`s right. You can`t just change these speakers into some bland sounding modern speaker. It doesn`t work that way, all the character will be gone. They are great the way they are.
@@brugj03 Character? I guess inaccurate and mostly terrible sound is a character. No words like transparency, imaging, frequency extension would apply. These are probably a 50/50 split between box sound a speaker cone sound.
loved this one. I used to be in a band that used a recording studio, where these were the main monitors, but they were wedged into the corners on shelves. We used to get some real weird sounding mixes from that studio.
You made the best of an impossible task. On the horizontal off-access, if I recall correctly, it's not possible to have the tweeters on the outside for both channels because JBL did not mirror the driver arrangement for left/right speakers in the 4310/4311 series. The 4311B and Pioneer HPM-100 were my two favorite speakers when I was a kid back in the mid-80's. I was ASTONISHED by what you were able to do for the HPM-100. Not surprised that the 4311 was a bigger challenge, but congrats on the results. I'm almost tempted to pick up a pair to give your upgrade a try. :)
Can 35yo crossover components cause ringing buzzing at certain frequencies? Or the old wood? I lined the insides with mat, nothing changed. It’s around 120 180 and 340 hz when doing a sweep. Rare Radian Engineering cabinets. Single point source with diaphragm mounted on the back of the woofer. I have 3x 10” and 2x 8” used in 5.1 setup.
Overall I’ve enjoyed these since new. It’s not often, but the buzzing will occur if certain frequencies hang out for a bit. My dad has the original smaller 8” that were used on top of recording consoles for nearfield. Our 8” have been refoamed. Never on the 10” but no visible issues. 3 of them are great as my L R C.
I love these videos. I remembered drooling over these as a kid. Over the years I almost pulled the trigger several times but they always got away. It seems like I dodged a bullet. Im still interested in some Kenrick Sound modified JBL's but until then im good.
I bought a pair of the upgraded version 4312 JBLs brand new in 1984 that were a huge difference from the JBL L40s I had.. used them with my Nikko 100 Watt receiver and was able to crank up the NOISE without blowing up woofers and tweeter's like the little ones did. But that's what they were made for I guess. Playing LOUD! I traded them in for DJ equipment in the late 80s & always regreted it until I knew what good speakers were all about. Nice watching this video now and knowing I made the right decision years ago. Thanks Danny! 👍✌️
When I was young (talking 70's here) all the guys that were several years older all had those giant Pioneer receivers (or maybe Marantz if they were really cool) plus those JBL L100's Wasn't until I got to college and heard a guys rig who had modded Dynaco tube amps, the Chartwell version of the BBC monitor w/ a Linn LP12 deck. Changed my life. I realized how things were supposed to sound.
The discovery of British designed loudspeakers, many of BBC design, were a revelation for many of us used to JBL, Altec and Pioneer. The refinement and subtlety are on another level.
I know we are talking speakers here, but I would like to add my opinion on the European recordings of the 70's and 80's. I would say on balance the sound recorded from that time period out of Europe was much better than most of the US engineered music. I liked the Music from here But Europe had a definite advantage when it came to recording sound. IMO that would avail them to being ahead of the curve on speaker design.
Danny, interesting upgrade. It would have been really interesting to hear your thoughts on the sound before and after as there is such a huge change in design. Perhaps some thoughts on what the original design goals might have been as I’m sure there would have been a reason for the response you measured. To balance out mid/bass gain from a mixing desk or being flush mounted? Also do t forget that in a nearfield situation in a damper room, the off axis responses are not as important. Also, how did your upgrade filter affect power handling with the tweeter playing so low? I know you love the spectral decay, but I think you should show THD at various SPL outputs (up to 96dB @1m ideally) as this really is the only way to validate the usefulness of the design.
Excellent work Danny. I can only imagine how harsh and hot it sounded originally.... The JBL almost reminds me of the older horrible sounding speakers that came out of Japan back in the day, with little to no effort given to accurate sound quality. Well done!
Bruce Swedien (knew him personally) also used the 4.5 inch CTS driver in a 6x6x5 inch cube referred to as Auratones and of course, rebalancing occurred in the mastering stage.
@@77WOR I personally think a lot of guys (including myself) liked these bitd was because we had carpet on the walls and where listening to pb from tape, but whatever. 🤷🏻♂️
I'm no engineer but I get what is being said here. I could hear on my L100 centuries that that mid was playing too high. I found them way better with vinyl and tape with the midrange control on my Yamaha Cr2020 reciever set at minus one ore even two. The L112 is a far better version of the L100. I run a set of these with an Accuphase E305L. Better bass and more clean extended highs and slightly less forward mids. I am a vintage Jbl fan but confess to seeing the beauty in Ev of the same era. Their 29mm tweeter was a killer and probably played low enough to go wirh woofer and mid bass units used in several speakers of this time. I run stage system 200s in my theatre system as front lefts and right with an entertainer speaker as a centre ....loud efficient and clean without the harshness.
@@phatjbl Absolutely correct. The JBL 110 and 112 that replaced the 4311 and the domestic version: the L100, were far more accurate speakers with real crossovers that filtered correctly instead of single capacitors on the tweets and mid.
Wow... This one is interesting to me, because I heard a pair of these in a dedicated space with an old Marantz receiver. They had stands that raised them up about 8" and tilted them back a bit. The damn things sounded excellent!
I have been watching your videos. Well done!! You share allot of info., I am sure that everyone out here appreciates it. It seems like these companies make their products but do not test them to see the performance. Maybe they don't care?? We the average consumer have to rely. On them to makes a good product for us. Maybe the people that design this stuff lacks the knowledge. that you have?? Or once again the don't care just want the money?? Nice video.
Any reviews on how this upgrade sounds and not only measures? i'm very interested because i love how my speakers sound generally but boy they can be harsh in the upper mid. i'm guessing this should fix that? i feel like at 700$ its a tough gamble..
It would be easier to replace the tweeter with a good modern soft dome in low Fs. The change is quite drastic, previously the 5-6k region had almost 100dB and now there is a dip there to approximately 86dB. Someone will say that changing the tweeter will mean a different speaker. But with such different frequency response it is also a completely different speaker. Objectively better, of course. Anyway imagine how many recordings of that time was screwed up by such "studio monitors"...
Wow - throwing drivers in a box - pretty much sums it up! The front baffle is crying out for a couple of ribs/braces - the 3 holes with the narrow webs between them - probably are letting the panel flex a lot. Is the midrange driver a sealed back? You don't mention a separate enclosure, so it seems that it is?
Speakerlab, a DIY speaker kit store up in the Seattle area, had showrooms that you could go and demo their products in. This was around the late '70's. They had a set of JBL century 100 that they kept so folks could A/B their competitive product in the same price range. Speakerlab use air core inductors early on, the drivers were placed on the front baffle in line, the midrange crossed over at 500 Hz and had a rubber surround inside a dedicated dampened enclosure. The 12" woofer 3 way kits they had were the model 3, which used an Audax 1" soft dome linen tweeter, or you could opt for the model 4 with the upgraded Klipsch style Electro Voice T-35 compression tweeter. Both these would trounce the JBL, no contest.
@@jim9930 I always carried a few extra voice coil replacement domes for the Audax tweeters. You could order linen, poly, or titanium coated domes in 4 or 8 ohm. I used them in car stereo back in the 80's as well. Good sounding, but fragile buggers! Oh, by the way car stereos back then were a time arrival nightmare. We mounted drivers were they would fit.
@@jim9930 The model S19 speakers I had used a 4 inch ferrofluid cooled sealed midrange drivers by Polydax made in France. Very nice sound and transitioned well to the planar tweeters made by Foster in England.
I have a pair of JBL 4312 speakers. I don’t know how they compare to the 4311s internally but externally they seem the same just the other way around with the mid and tweeter above the woofer. Do you think your upgrade kit would work well with my 4312s?
The main difference between the original 4311 and the 4312 was the change from Alnico to Ferrite magnets in the woofer and midrange, but the acoustic performance between the two were pretty much the same. According to JBL's published specifications, the T/S parameters for the 2213 Alnico driver used the 4311, and the 2213H ferrite version used in the 4312 are virtually identical, with the same cone construction and moving mass, suspension compliance, BL, RE, LE, etc. The frequency response profile of the 2105 Alnico midrange in the 4311 is essentially the same as the Le5-12 ferrite version up to 8K Hz, but the 2105's overall it's output is about 2 db higher across the board due to higher motor strength and edgewound voice coil. Tweeter performance of the two versions is virtually identical so there's no issues there. I've owned several versions of the 43-4400 family, and they all have a similar sound character. Given that the midrange is only acting as a "filler" between the woofer and tweeter in the GR kit, I would think the upgrade kit would work quite well in the 4312, especially if there was some compensation for the slightly reduced output.
People used a thing called an Equalizer back in the day. I use one now with my Yamaha NS-1000m.... stock xover w/ new caps....sounds delightful. I have excellent hearing.
Well to put things in perspective when I was in college in the early 80s, I had a two-way design from them and everyone loved them. We enjoyed the aesthetics and their ability to play rock music times change, but in the moment it was pretty darn enjoyable.
Companies like Bose and Klipsch survived. Appearance, marketing and gimmicks is what allows these companies to survive. Convincing people they are high fidelity and accurate even when they are not.
These kicked ass in their day,all we had was our ears,we trusted brands. The old pioneer hpms were screamers to me,I gave mine to my little brother,those tweeters also had control knobs,that didn't do shit. Great video I love these vintage speaker redoes more than your doing new ones.
a friend got new 4310s in the 70s and try as we may, we couldn't get them to sound good fin multiple positions, on the floor, on chairs against the wall and away about 3', sealed port, open port, no grills,etc. they would only sound acceptable EXACTLY on axis aimed straight ahead, and also at low levels for background or late night listening. he quickly sold them for the accommodation price he paid (he engineered for KPPC-prog rock-before it became KROQ in LA, actually located in Pasadena CA). he then went to work for Infinity Systems and the sound was WAY better from a variety of their speakers which he got to bring home. the L100 in general, which the 4310 and 4311 series were related to, were boomy, hard in the mids, and harsh in the highs. the new version, evenwith the new drivers and integral stands, are still too prominent in the bass which obscures their actual lows and overshadows any improvements in drivers. current pricing actually rivals original pricing adjusted for inflation. the fans of the old and new versions are certainly welcome to their choices but the new JBL Synthesis series are exquisite if chokingly priced in the five figure range.
funny, growing up with a pair of these and other vintage speakers, i was so happy with them when they'd thump and sizzle and now? i use morel dome mids and tweets and have no wish to change back to the harshness and slam..age helps us learn!
Looks like your final result made a kick-ass rock-n-roll dorm room champion. Great party speaker. That thing looks like tons of fun in a dorm room or basement full of people with appropriate amounts of adult beverages thrown in. Well done, and once again, kudos to JBL for having/selling replacement drivers. Big Time thumbs up.
you probably know this one but back in the 70s and 80s did they even have the equipment to measure and design crossovers like they do today? cost cutting aside the major brands seem to be making a lot better balanced crossovers than they once did. some may add a deeper sound like a drop at 2khz but it's intentional not accidental.
The early B&W 801 measured +/- 2 dB across the range, with later versions +/- 1.75 dB, or better. They used computer modeling and anechoic chambers and could design and manufacture very accurate speakers more than 40 years ago. Crossovers were complex 4th order, unlike JBL’s $1 crossover.
My understanding is these JBLs were monitors intended to be mounted above a mixing console. That is why the tweeter/midrange below woofer. Back in the day there were listeners that loved them and those who hated them. Old saying .... "JBL" means "Junk, But Loud"
There are a couple versions of the 4311, though I'm not entirely sure what the differences are between them aside from maybe a difference in the mid woofer.
"Near field" monitors even. He should look at the L100 which is JBL most popular speaker. It was a hi-fi version of the 4311. I just acquired a set of 4311b which have a slightly higher crossover point on the mids and highs. Also slightly better midrange and tweeter design. Also the edges wont matter as you are sitting directly in front of them. You are correct in that the drivers are not just "haphazardly placed upon the baffle" as suggested in the clip. Its as though GR Research is going off measurements and not research afterall. Those measurements are nothing averyone knows monitors are supposed to sound like crap. However I happen to love the sound of mine.
@@MurderousMindstate Danny has already worked on the HPM100 and has a video about them but you didn't even bother to look before commenting. "Monitors should sound bad" that's a load of copium if I've ever read it. Monitors should be accurate to the source, even if a little dry/sterile.
The woofer and the mid can be time aligned to the tweeter just like in a 2 way design where you time align the tweeter to the woofer or vice-verser. In the end there will be 2 crossover points where the woofer will crossover with mid and tweeter will align itself with the mid and the mid will be crossed over to the tweeter. Its what I will call a modern 3 way design. It's complicated but with modeling software it's easy
These are not time aligned and even if they were it could only be done for one point in space. Move in any direction and they are no longer aligned. We also don't use any modeling software. Most software will not take into account driver spacing, voice coil offset, surface refection, or edge diffraction.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you Danny for your reply. I am learning a lot from your videos about speaker performance. It's true that most software can't allow you to do the tasks you've mentioned, but in Xsim passive crossover design software it allows you to align each driver's voice coil to enable you to match the sum of the total frequency response connected in parallel.
Danny.... Love this video on a studio classic..... but why oh why does your 3rd plot line need to be Yellow? It's so hard to see yellow on white, and I'm watching on a calibrated monitor. (maybe I need some Clarity caps in my 4k monitor??)
I'm curious what it would cost to send some older Beethoven Grands (2005 era) from Washington to Texas.....probably a lot! LOL Dang, I love what you do man, I really do! Keep them a coming! ⚽Also, do you have an EPL team?
I understand the bashing of these old JBL monitor speakers. That makes me want to hear your opinion on the 120Ti, 240Ti and 250Ti. As these models gets a lot of love.
I completely rebuilt a ragged set of the L100s last fall. I replaced the factory caps with Mundorf Oil Caps. Someone had put mids and tweeters from other JBL products in their respective holes. I wish this option existed then but then I'm not sure I would have pulled the trigger at this price, however. Spending $700+ is just too steep for this speaker. Unless you're never planning on selling them.
Way back in the dark ages, I had a pair of these. Wanted them so bad I could taste it. Really liked them at the time. Drove them with a Marantz 2250. They were so much better than what I had previously. Was the first real speaker I had that made a real attempt as bass. Ironic Harman International a few years ago released an updated version of this (L-100) with a retail price of 4K. Have not heard them so can't comment on their sound but the claim is they measure much better than the older L-100 (and 4311). Not sure if its due to their price or SQ but they have not been selling like hot cakes the way the originals did. Going from memory all the big JBLs had a box that would resonate like crazy, even the big L-300s but folks still loved them.
Is suspect there is one inherent advantage to the woofer running wide open; direct connection to the amp, ie., zero additional inductance! As I recall, a short time later, the 4430/4435 bi-radial monitor platforms were significantly better ... ie., output, linearity, extension, coverage.
They are either going to be issues inherit to the speaker/driver itself, (even at stock) or are caused externally caused by room issues which dominate below 200-500Hz.
Thags cery true, maybe one of the worst for imaging and not the best blending of frequencies, but they sure do make some good looking drivers and speakers though! These look especially good with the orange grilles and those white aquaplas woofers, they grab your attention everytime.
Personally I would leave the tweeter in there as a hole-cover and take it out of the circuit, replace the mid-range with cheap but usable full-range that could reach down to your baffle step transition. Install it in a capped tube packed with insulation so its not sharing airspace with the woofer then flip the whole thing on end to get the full range on top. Make it a simple 2-way and choke that woofer out. Target crossover would probably be closer to 400hz.
I added a 10" powered subwoofer to my Marantz / JBL set up and my 4311Bs sound better than ever. I may try your kit if the big improvement the sub gave me ever wears off.
an interesting listening test would be to compare GR-modded 4311 / L100 spkrs to a good, healthy original set. use a very good (& also healthy) vintage amp. select only rock music from bitd.
I'm surprised you didn't address that the woofer is physically 180 out per JBL plus, the response below 100Hz down to 60. We know that speaker pretty much stops reproducing below 45Hz. Now, recording engineers as myself used these pretty much exclusively from 71 (4310) through mid to latter 80s. The primise was- "you can hear the songs as the recording engineer balanced them"
I wonder what he thinks of the more expensive JBL studio series vs. these. I think these were the mass market crap that JBL produced vs. the much better larger 43xx models and such...
I owned a pair of JBL L50's that I purchased late 70's I think I had them right up to the mid 90's when I started getting into home theater and moved on. I remember cranking those things pretty good and never had much to complain about sound wise. A pretty good three way monitor with 10 inch woofer that played good and low. In any case my question is, what is the point of owning a pair of vintage speakers if you plan to modify them? As someone who experienced 70's equipment, I can say it was good, it was fun, but I wouldn't go back. And if you are going back to a different era of sound, why screw with it and turn it into something it isn't? Makes no sense to me.
I remember some of the old JBL speakers. I was never a fan compared to some of their competitors. I often wondered what people saw (heard) in them. I was a fan of the ESS Amt tower that Team Electronics had back then. Let’s see how Danny does.
@@jim9930What are some 5inch mid-range speakers designed in the 60's that smoke these? You said by "any standard" so let's look at equivalent drivers of that era. If they were never a good driver please list a few other drivers of that era that are vastly superior.
Another big problem with this speaker: the Qts of the woofer is close to 0.5, so it really wants to be in a sealed box. In JBL’s reflex box, it has a nasty peak around 55-60 Hz, below which it drops off rapidly. In partial defense of JBL, it was designed before Thiele and Small’s seminal work.
I'm very curious about the vintage Pioneer speakers. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, I dismissed them as JBODs. (Just A Bunch of Drivers - stuffed into a box). To me, they looked and sounded like that. I was also not impressed by all the chromed plastic. But then I fell in love with the Kenwood LSP-9000Ds. Quite honestly, those were also JBODs with plastic "beauty rings", but I was young and still had a lot to learn. I'm curious about whether I was right about the Pioneers back then.
@@dannyrichie9743 I looked up the manual on the hifiengine web site. And their response curve looks nothing like your measurements. I trust your measurements over their "liars sheet" any day. The fact that your "after upgrade" response measurement is better than their brochure is a testament to your superlative skill. You can tell there's going to be problems whenever you see drivers shoehorned in every which way. The CS-822a, 922a and 903s are fine examples. You just know they have all kinds of off axis problems just by looking at them. Then again, just look up those Kenwoods I bought way back then and... well, live and learn, I guess. Here I am embarrassing myself.
@@morlidor A good room, proper placement, and good gear really helps, but in this case the before and after differences of the upgrade is significant enough to easily hear the improvements on any system.
Jbl wants you to hear the truth "loud" like at a concert hall or stadium. One of the leaders in concert venue. At the music event is the music sound out of phase yes, maybe but no one cares its live music. JBL brought the concert sound home. But I agree what GR Research explains is correct.
popular usually doesn't correlate to quality with the general public. look at all these klipsch amazon customers. smartest move for klipsch was selling on amazon👍
Like Pioneers HPM 100 which fans love for some reason. I had a pair... twice. I really tried to give them a chance but the abrasiveness and listening fatigue became intolerable.
They sold a lot of those made to be loud L100s not much to them. So they could make good ones like the L110s, much better sounding speaker. I still have them tried them bouth out side by side. Could tell right away how much better the L110s were. They have a much better and advanced for then crossover. If you can ever try a pair I would say they are close to the KLH 5s.
@@ChicagoRob2 Look what they did to that poor guy's martini! I "married" a pair of L88's. And I was a Cerwin Vega rep back then. So ya, I knew them! Gene Czerwinski gave us a plant tour. Because dome drivers were very popular then, he glued half a basketball onto a woofer cone to have a dome woofer as a joke!
Danny, have you ever looked at a Klipsch La Scala ? I am close to purchasing them without hearing them first. Mostly because of the fantastic reviews. I am not a bass guy. I love the mids and highs.
I had a guy bring one in. I have a complete set of measurements on them. The response was all over the place, and the boxes buzzed like crazy. In fact, the cabinet buzzing might have been the worst I have ever seen. The customer made a plan and wanted to line them with some bracing, No Rez, and lay on a 3/4" decorative hardwood panel to the sides to control the cabinet buzzing. He then wanted us to design new crossovers for them to balance out the response and try to fix the time arrival issues of the drivers. The plan was all set, but then he said that before he leaves he wanted to hear our system. Two songs in to hearing the NX-Treme his hole plan changed. He ordered a pair of NX-Tremes and said he was moving the La Scalas to the garage.
@@dannyrichie9743 do you remember if his La Scala's were AL5's ? I heard the same thing about the early models of the La Scala but I thought they fixed it in the AL5. ??? No ?
@@dannyrichie9743 Perhaps if I were to hear your speakers , I would love them too. Unfortunately, there are no reviews of the NX-Tremes anywhere outside of your channel. Please consider sending a pair out to Steve Guttenberg for a review. I am ready to purchase my last set of speakers now.
@@clasvirhodes4969 Check our forum at the Audio Circle. There is a ton of feedback there. Also, if I were to send speakers for review it would be to a reviewer that has a properly set up room that would allow them to hear the capabilities of a world class speaker like this.
@@morlidor I'm sure some sound really good. I have a pair of hpm 60 I was going to restore but I have so many better speakers that I have built myself that I would want to replace all the drivers and redesign the crossover and all it really would be is a box to me and at that I would have to find woofers that would work with the internal volume.
@@morlidor I have put a lot of money into my reference pair and they are multi layer MDF covered with.75 solid oak. It's not even a comparison. They look like furniture
Dan thinks he is the savior to the loudspeaker world , these speakers came out in 1973, professional studio Monitors , they are enjoyable ( re cap them to save the tweeters) and a great piece of audio history. I bring mine of now and then . Most of the older jbl’s are very well made and enjoyable to listen to.
When my ears were young and not buzzy speakers were crappy. Now my ears are crappy and my speakers are great (X- statiks). Thanks for the videos and my speakers GR research.
You deserve a ton of likes for just subjecting yourself to this disaster.
Today is a disaster because of existing measuring equipment reveals it, but in 1978 compare to other speakers they sounded great, the good news is with this great job Danny did they can sound much better ;)
Great job again, Danny and Hobbs. Great to see you breathing new life into these oldies.
@stephenyoud6125
or bring down old life... 🤔
I bought a pair of HPM60s new in 1976. Blew the woofers at a frat party in 1980. Replaced the woofers with some from Frasier in Dallas. Been using them continuously for almost 50 years! Now using them in my garage to rock the neighborhood. Looking forward to the HPM60 video.
I remember all vintage speakers very well. They sounded killer when I was in my teens! Not so much when your older. Great job! Kudos on you schooling OCD Mikey on the Magnapan! 😊
I feel so bad for you, Danny. These old speakers are huge headaches to deal with. Thank you for your dedication and patience and doing the best you can with these beasts.
When I worked at Motown Hitsville Studios (Los Angeles) in the late 70's early 80's, these speakers were used all the time. They would sit up on a shelf on top of the consoles as near field monitors. I can't begin to list the albums mixed on these speakers, I constantly found the mid range drivers connected out of phase on some and not on others. Whether they came like that from the factory I had no idea but I had to go through and get them all to match. They were horrible but recording engineer theory was if you could get mix to sound good on them, they'll sound good on the radio.
This explains perfectly why a good portion of the music I liked from the 70's and 80's sounds so incredibly bad on a very revealing system. Thank you for verifying my suspicions of JBL my whole life. No matter which one I listened to, there was always an alternative I would have chose instead. There was just a tonality to them unpleasing to my ear. To me the Infinity's of that time had a much better sound. It could very well be that the Infinity's measured even worse. I don't know, but to me that was the sound I've been after my whole life.
I always watch right to the end! Another great upgrade and very interesting to see the filler driver applied like that! And what a huge bass driver, I would've expected to keep ringing more than it did. I was just thinking of pouring epoxy into the front to level out the front, that would alter the vintage speaker, but it might deal with the diffraction a little better.
I think is one of your best videos and upgrades this one and the HPM100, you said a great true about in the late 70's there were not measuring equipment like TEF to help designers in making the ideal crossovers and that's why this vintage speakers can be improve vastly with your work, anyone owning a JBL 4311 would be glad to pay those 730 dollars in order to make their 4311 to sing much better, I was waiting at the end that you say that after the new crossover you like a lot this speaker, maybe some day another guy bring you the L-112 which is a bit better than the 4311, thanks for this job
Thank you for this information! Ordered my upgrade kit with anticipation of hearing the difference! Well done sir!
Could you share your opinion on the results please?
But still… back in the day I used these speakers as monitors for recording and mixing music professionally and guess what… I loved them! Of course they weren’t perfect, but they gave me mixes that translated very well to other systems and radio/tv. I had a hard time finding replacements when the time came… And I have to say that I enjoyed working with them. If I’d still have a pair I would certainly try your upgrade kit for sure…
Sure. These were a good representation of the generally bad speaker designs of that time period. That is why the Yamaha book shelf monitors were popular in the 80s and 90s. The yamaha sounded like boom box speakers, so a good idea of your mix on pretty bad playback systems.
@@morlidor Absolutely not. I don't know if you watched the video. These are very very poorly "designed" speakers, with junk thrown into a cheap box. Sound really good? Depends if you want to hear what is on the recording. Elac B5's sound good and fun, but they do not remotely let you hear what is in the recording. No transparent window into the recording. Not even close.
Ok. Absolutely not for 90% of these kinds of speakers. Science made them better, but the science wasn't there until later.
That`s right. You can`t just change these speakers into some bland sounding modern speaker.
It doesn`t work that way, all the character will be gone.
They are great the way they are.
@@brugj03 Character? I guess inaccurate and mostly terrible sound is a character. No words like transparency, imaging, frequency extension would apply. These are probably a 50/50 split between box sound a speaker cone sound.
loved this one. I used to be in a band that used a recording studio, where these were the main monitors, but they were wedged into the corners on shelves. We used to get some real weird sounding mixes from that studio.
You made the best of an impossible task. On the horizontal off-access, if I recall correctly, it's not possible to have the tweeters on the outside for both channels because JBL did not mirror the driver arrangement for left/right speakers in the 4310/4311 series. The 4311B and Pioneer HPM-100 were my two favorite speakers when I was a kid back in the mid-80's. I was ASTONISHED by what you were able to do for the HPM-100. Not surprised that the 4311 was a bigger challenge, but congrats on the results. I'm almost tempted to pick up a pair to give your upgrade a try. :)
Both speakers used single capacitors on the paper cone mids and tweets. No wonder the lousy peaky performance.
Can 35yo crossover components cause ringing buzzing at certain frequencies? Or the old wood? I lined the insides with mat, nothing changed. It’s around 120 180 and 340 hz when doing a sweep. Rare Radian Engineering cabinets. Single point source with diaphragm mounted on the back of the woofer. I have 3x 10” and 2x 8” used in 5.1 setup.
Overall I’ve enjoyed these since new. It’s not often, but the buzzing will occur if certain frequencies hang out for a bit. My dad has the original smaller 8” that were used on top of recording consoles for nearfield. Our 8” have been refoamed. Never on the 10” but no visible issues. 3 of them are great as my L R C.
I love these videos. I remembered drooling over these as a kid. Over the years I almost pulled the trigger several times but they always got away. It seems like I dodged a bullet.
Im still interested in some Kenrick Sound modified JBL's but until then im good.
The 4311 was supposed to be the studio monitor version of the "legendary" L100 back in those days....
Great Video! Nice to hear about these old (in your words) disaster.
Kudos to a manufacturer that still sells replacement parts. Try that with other older speakers.
Excellent vid. By the way, my Pedest'ale Tower speakers recapped and lined with No-rez are a testimony to Danny.
Before / After test would be essential with a mic for us!
I bought a pair of the upgraded version 4312 JBLs brand new in 1984 that were a huge difference from the JBL L40s I had.. used them with my Nikko 100 Watt receiver and was able to crank up the NOISE without blowing up woofers and tweeter's like the little ones did. But that's what they were made for I guess. Playing LOUD! I traded them in for DJ equipment in the late 80s & always regreted it until I knew what good speakers were all about. Nice watching this video now and knowing I made the right decision years ago. Thanks Danny! 👍✌️
Looks good! Danny just out of curiosity, what was a better speaker the CerwinVega! You just did or this JBL? Before and after.
Of the old vintage models that have been in so far, I really liked the Pioneer HMP-100 and the Yamaha NS-1000M.
When I was a young lad, this was a grail speaker. But never had the space, so i eventually settled on a pair of Advents.
I had the 25th Anniversary Large Advents and loved them.
The Advents were WAY better than JBL!
Grail? 😂 It was horrible even at the time🤣
@@theaudiofool5475Ditto that!
People get sucked in by brightness and aggressiveness in the presence region. They confuse it for detail.
When I was young (talking 70's here) all the guys that were several years older all had those giant Pioneer receivers (or maybe Marantz if they were really cool) plus those JBL L100's Wasn't until I got to college and heard a guys rig who had modded Dynaco tube amps, the Chartwell version of the BBC monitor w/ a Linn LP12 deck. Changed my life. I realized how things were supposed to sound.
The discovery of British designed loudspeakers, many of BBC design, were a revelation for many of us used to JBL, Altec and Pioneer. The refinement and subtlety are on another level.
I know we are talking speakers here, but I would like to add my opinion on the European recordings of the 70's and 80's. I would say on balance the sound recorded from that time period out of Europe was much better than most of the US engineered music. I liked the Music from here But Europe had a definite advantage when it came to recording sound. IMO that would avail them to being ahead of the curve on speaker design.
Danny, interesting upgrade. It would have been really interesting to hear your thoughts on the sound before and after as there is such a huge change in design. Perhaps some thoughts on what the original design goals might have been as I’m sure there would have been a reason for the response you measured. To balance out mid/bass gain from a mixing desk or being flush mounted? Also do t forget that in a nearfield situation in a damper room, the off axis responses are not as important.
Also, how did your upgrade filter affect power handling with the tweeter playing so low? I know you love the spectral decay, but I think you should show THD at various SPL outputs (up to 96dB @1m ideally) as this really is the only way to validate the usefulness of the design.
Excellent work Danny. I can only imagine how harsh and hot it sounded originally.... The JBL almost reminds me of the older horrible sounding speakers that came out of Japan back in the day, with little to no effort given to accurate sound quality. Well done!
Danny I want to know what are your top five favorite vintage speakers that don’t need any or at least not a lot of work.
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience with us.
I was thinking the same thing as you were discussing the problems: basically make it a two-way with the midrange filling in a bit at the bottom.
One thing for sure after reading 303 comments...
Speakers are like food. Some people like *this* and some people like *that*
Thriller was mixed on speakers from this series.
Bruce Swedien (knew him personally) also used the 4.5 inch CTS driver in a 6x6x5 inch cube referred to as Auratones and of course, rebalancing occurred in the mastering stage.
@@77WOR I still have and use some old “horrortones”.
@@77WOR I personally think a lot of guys (including myself) liked these bitd was because we had carpet on the walls and where listening to pb from tape, but whatever. 🤷🏻♂️
I'm no engineer but I get what is being said here. I could hear on my L100 centuries that that mid was playing too high. I found them way better with vinyl and tape with the midrange control on my Yamaha Cr2020 reciever set at minus one ore even two. The L112 is a far better version of the L100. I run a set of these with an Accuphase E305L. Better bass and more clean extended highs and slightly less forward mids. I am a vintage Jbl fan but confess to seeing the beauty in Ev of the same era. Their 29mm tweeter was a killer and probably played low enough to go wirh woofer and mid bass units used in several speakers of this time. I run stage system 200s in my theatre system as front lefts and right with an entertainer speaker as a centre ....loud efficient and clean without the harshness.
@@phatjbl Absolutely correct. The JBL 110 and 112 that replaced the 4311 and the domestic version: the L100, were far more accurate speakers with real crossovers that filtered correctly instead of single capacitors on the tweets and mid.
Wow... This one is interesting to me, because I heard a pair of these in a dedicated space with an old Marantz receiver. They had stands that raised them up about 8" and tilted them back a bit. The damn things sounded excellent!
I have been watching your videos. Well done!! You share allot of info., I am sure that everyone out here appreciates it. It seems like these companies make their products but do not test them to see the performance. Maybe they don't care?? We the average consumer have to rely. On them to makes a good product for us. Maybe the people that design this stuff lacks the knowledge. that you have?? Or once again the don't care just want the money?? Nice video.
Great information as always.
How’s the new three way design coming along?
Danny,
Can your upgrade kit for the 4311's be used with the L100's?
Any reviews on how this upgrade sounds and not only measures? i'm very interested because i love how my speakers sound generally but boy they can be harsh in the upper mid. i'm guessing this should fix that? i feel like at 700$ its a tough gamble..
The upgrade takes care of the harshness. It is also not a gamble. It is a sure thing.
It would be easier to replace the tweeter with a good modern soft dome in low Fs. The change is quite drastic, previously the 5-6k region had almost 100dB and now there is a dip there to approximately 86dB. Someone will say that changing the tweeter will mean a different speaker. But with such different frequency response it is also a completely different speaker. Objectively better, of course. Anyway imagine how many recordings of that time was screwed up by such "studio monitors"...
Wow - throwing drivers in a box - pretty much sums it up!
The front baffle is crying out for a couple of ribs/braces - the 3 holes with the narrow webs between them - probably are letting the panel flex a lot.
Is the midrange driver a sealed back? You don't mention a separate enclosure, so it seems that it is?
Oh yeah, I should have mentioned the mid had a sealed back.
@@dannyrichie9743 That explains why it doesn't play very low.
Speakerlab, a DIY speaker kit store up in the Seattle area, had showrooms that you could go and demo their products in. This was around the late '70's. They had a set of JBL century 100 that they kept so folks could A/B their competitive product in the same price range. Speakerlab use air core inductors early on, the drivers were placed on the front baffle in line, the midrange crossed over at 500 Hz and had a rubber surround inside a dedicated dampened enclosure.
The 12" woofer 3 way kits they had were the model 3, which used an Audax 1" soft dome linen tweeter, or you could opt for the model 4 with the upgraded Klipsch style Electro Voice T-35 compression tweeter. Both these would trounce the JBL, no contest.
@@jim9930 I always carried a few extra voice coil replacement domes for the Audax tweeters. You could order linen, poly, or titanium coated domes in 4 or 8 ohm. I used them in car stereo back in the 80's as well. Good sounding, but fragile buggers!
Oh, by the way car stereos back then were a time arrival nightmare. We mounted drivers were they would fit.
@@jim9930 The model S19 speakers I had used a 4 inch ferrofluid cooled sealed midrange drivers by Polydax made in France. Very nice sound and transitioned well to the planar tweeters made by Foster in England.
More of an Emit tweeter, or leaf tweeter as they called it. Horn loaded Emit..... whatever marketing jargon you fill in the blank.
I have a pair of JBL 4312 speakers. I don’t know how they compare to the 4311s internally but externally they seem the same just the other way around with the mid and tweeter above the woofer. Do you think your upgrade kit would work well with my 4312s?
I doubt it.
The main difference between the original 4311 and the 4312 was the change from Alnico to Ferrite magnets in the woofer and midrange, but the acoustic performance between the two were pretty much the same. According to JBL's published specifications, the T/S parameters for the 2213 Alnico driver used the 4311, and the 2213H ferrite version used in the 4312 are virtually identical, with the same cone construction and moving mass, suspension compliance, BL, RE, LE, etc. The frequency response profile of the 2105 Alnico midrange in the 4311 is essentially the same as the Le5-12 ferrite version up to 8K Hz, but the 2105's overall it's output is about 2 db higher across the board due to higher motor strength and edgewound voice coil. Tweeter performance of the two versions is virtually identical so there's no issues there. I've owned several versions of the 43-4400 family, and they all have a similar sound character. Given that the midrange is only acting as a "filler" between the woofer and tweeter in the GR kit, I would think the upgrade kit would work quite well in the 4312, especially if there was some compensation for the slightly reduced output.
i remember being in several recording studios in LA in the late sixties and 4311's were the standard replay speakers...amazing.
No wonder the recordings sound crap.
People used a thing called an Equalizer back in the day. I use one now with my Yamaha NS-1000m.... stock xover w/ new caps....sounds delightful. I have excellent hearing.
where do u get OEM tweeters LE-25 ?
Will you test an AR2ax speaker and provide a kit? These were well liked and huge numbers were sold in the day
We only work on what our customers send in.
It's amazing how all these speaker companies survived all these decades.
Well to put things in perspective when I was in college in the early 80s, I had a two-way design from them and everyone loved them. We enjoyed the aesthetics and their ability to play rock music times change, but in the moment it was pretty darn enjoyable.
Companies like Bose and Klipsch survived. Appearance, marketing and gimmicks is what allows these companies to survive. Convincing people they are high fidelity and accurate even when they are not.
@@veroman007 I agree. I was attempting. Looks like I missed the target. I just get tired of every speaker being inadequate.
Yes it is, also considering the brain-washing by the so called 'audiophile magazine"
These kicked ass in their day,all we had was our ears,we trusted brands. The old pioneer hpms were screamers to me,I gave mine to my little brother,those tweeters also had control knobs,that didn't do shit. Great video I love these vintage speaker redoes more than your doing new ones.
I'd redo the crossovers, test each driver for frequency response, and then redesign the crossovers!, great video
a friend got new 4310s in the 70s and try as we may, we couldn't get them to sound good fin multiple positions, on the floor, on chairs against the wall and away about 3', sealed port, open port, no grills,etc. they would only sound acceptable EXACTLY on axis aimed straight ahead, and also at low levels for background or late night listening. he quickly sold them for the accommodation price he paid (he engineered for KPPC-prog rock-before it became KROQ in LA, actually located in Pasadena CA). he then went to work for Infinity Systems and the sound was WAY better from a variety of their speakers which he got to bring home.
the L100 in general, which the 4310 and 4311 series were related to, were boomy, hard in the mids, and harsh in the highs. the new version, evenwith the new drivers and integral stands, are still too prominent in the bass which obscures their actual lows and overshadows any improvements in drivers. current pricing actually rivals original pricing adjusted for inflation.
the fans of the old and new versions are certainly welcome to their choices but the new JBL Synthesis series are exquisite if chokingly priced in the five figure range.
I had the same ezperience with L112's. Ghastly things. I prefered silence.
My 4411s have a MASSIVE crossover so I'm very surprised that these only have capacitors on the back of the drivers.
44' series are a completely different animal.
funny, growing up with a pair of these and other vintage speakers, i was so happy with them when they'd thump and sizzle and now? i use morel dome mids and tweets and have no wish to change back to the harshness and slam..age helps us learn!
What state are you in. I have the same speakers that i would like to do the same thing. Or do you sell the kit?
Order the kit: gr-research.com/product-category/jbl-upgrades/
Looks like your final result made a kick-ass rock-n-roll dorm room champion. Great party speaker. That thing looks like tons of fun in a dorm room or basement full of people with appropriate amounts of adult beverages thrown in. Well done, and once again, kudos to JBL for having/selling replacement drivers. Big Time thumbs up.
you probably know this one but back in the 70s and 80s did they even have the equipment to measure and design crossovers like they do today? cost cutting aside the major brands seem to be making a lot better balanced crossovers than they once did. some may add a deeper sound like a drop at 2khz but it's intentional not accidental.
The early B&W 801 measured +/- 2 dB across the range, with later versions +/- 1.75 dB, or better. They used computer modeling and anechoic chambers and could design and manufacture very accurate speakers more than 40 years ago. Crossovers were complex 4th order, unlike JBL’s $1 crossover.
My understanding is these JBLs were monitors intended to be mounted above a mixing console. That is why the tweeter/midrange below woofer. Back in the day there were listeners that loved them and those who hated them. Old saying .... "JBL" means "Junk, But Loud"
There are a couple versions of the 4311, though I'm not entirely sure what the differences are between them aside from maybe a difference in the mid woofer.
I always thought it stood for Just Bloody Loud
Juke Box Loudspeaker
"Near field" monitors even. He should look at the L100 which is JBL most popular speaker. It was a hi-fi version of the 4311. I just acquired a set of 4311b which have a slightly higher crossover point on the mids and highs. Also slightly better midrange and tweeter design. Also the edges wont matter as you are sitting directly in front of them. You are correct in that the drivers are not just "haphazardly placed upon the baffle" as suggested in the clip.
Its as though GR Research is going off measurements and not research afterall. Those measurements are nothing averyone knows monitors are supposed to sound like crap. However I happen to love the sound of mine.
@@MurderousMindstate Danny has already worked on the HPM100 and has a video about them but you didn't even bother to look before commenting. "Monitors should sound bad" that's a load of copium if I've ever read it. Monitors should be accurate to the source, even if a little dry/sterile.
The woofer and the mid can be time aligned to the tweeter just like in a 2 way design where you time align the tweeter to the woofer or vice-verser. In the end there will be 2 crossover points where the woofer will crossover with mid and tweeter will align itself with the mid and the mid will be crossed over to the tweeter. Its what I will call a modern 3 way design. It's complicated but with modeling software it's easy
These are not time aligned and even if they were it could only be done for one point in space. Move in any direction and they are no longer aligned. We also don't use any modeling software. Most software will not take into account driver spacing, voice coil offset, surface refection, or edge diffraction.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you Danny for your reply. I am learning a lot from your videos about speaker performance. It's true that most software can't allow you to do the tasks you've mentioned, but in Xsim passive crossover design software it allows you to align each driver's voice coil to enable you to match the sum of the total frequency response connected in parallel.
@@charlespablo1414 Well, then in some cases, it might get you in the ballpark.
Danny.... Love this video on a studio classic..... but why oh why does your 3rd plot line need to be Yellow? It's so hard to see yellow on white, and I'm watching on a calibrated monitor. (maybe I need some Clarity caps in my 4k monitor??)
Because, red, orange, yellow, green, blue.... Standard color order.
The JBL 4311 reminds me of the abrasive performance of the Pioneer HPM 100... both speakers designed Bart Locanthi BTW.
I'm curious what it would cost to send some older Beethoven Grands (2005 era) from Washington to Texas.....probably a lot! LOL Dang, I love what you do man, I really do! Keep them a coming! ⚽Also, do you have an EPL team?
I understand the bashing of these old JBL monitor speakers. That makes me want to hear your opinion on the 120Ti, 240Ti and 250Ti. As these models gets a lot of love.
I completely rebuilt a ragged set of the L100s last fall. I replaced the factory caps with Mundorf Oil Caps. Someone had put mids and tweeters from other JBL products in their respective holes. I wish this option existed then but then I'm not sure I would have pulled the trigger at this price, however. Spending $700+ is just too steep for this speaker. Unless you're never planning on selling them.
Perhaps an Option B of a new mid? One that would go low enough?
You should make a playlist just for the vintage reworks. I'd watch 'em.
The filter working for the JBL 4311B Monitors ????
I liked the JBL 4311 (and the L100 sister) as it was.
I love my JBL L55 speakers, with new woofer surrounds and recapped crossovers of course.
You are right my friend
I n the 70's so many speakers from Japan and the US were made just like these and only GR can make such an amazing improvement
Way back in the dark ages, I had a pair of these. Wanted them so bad I could taste it. Really liked them at the time. Drove them with a Marantz 2250. They were so much better than what I had previously. Was the first real speaker I had that made a real attempt as bass. Ironic Harman International a few years ago released an updated version of this (L-100) with a retail price of 4K. Have not heard them so can't comment on their sound but the claim is they measure much better than the older L-100 (and 4311). Not sure if its due to their price or SQ but they have not been selling like hot cakes the way the originals did. Going from memory all the big JBLs had a box that would resonate like crazy, even the big L-300s but folks still loved them.
Is suspect there is one inherent advantage to the woofer running wide open; direct connection to the amp, ie., zero additional inductance!
As I recall, a short time later, the 4430/4435 bi-radial monitor platforms were significantly better ... ie., output, linearity, extension, coverage.
I know the mid's and high's are where most of the magic happens, but what if there are issues below 200Hz?
They are either going to be issues inherit to the speaker/driver itself, (even at stock) or are caused externally caused by room issues which dominate below 200-500Hz.
@@hoth2112 Good explanation, thanks.
Thags cery true, maybe one of the worst for imaging and not the best blending of frequencies, but they sure do make some good looking drivers and speakers though! These look especially good with the orange grilles and those white aquaplas woofers, they grab your attention everytime.
Personally I would leave the tweeter in there as a hole-cover and take it out of the circuit, replace the mid-range with cheap but usable full-range that could reach down to your baffle step transition. Install it in a capped tube packed with insulation so its not sharing airspace with the woofer then flip the whole thing on end to get the full range on top. Make it a simple 2-way and choke that woofer out. Target crossover would probably be closer to 400hz.
I added a 10" powered subwoofer to my Marantz / JBL set up and my 4311Bs sound better than ever. I may try your kit if the big improvement the sub gave me ever wears off.
When was this speaker available? Anyone know? No discussion of how they sound?
1974
It is amazing how much crossovers can balance and clean up sound.
Crossover machen keinen Klang. Sie reduzieren Frequenzen!!!
an interesting listening test would be to compare GR-modded 4311 / L100 spkrs to a good, healthy original set. use a very good (& also healthy) vintage amp. select only rock music from bitd.
Would the kit also apply to the 4311b speakers?
Would have to be measured again, B's have a different midrange, with a hard dome dustcap.
I'm surprised you didn't address that the woofer is physically 180 out per JBL plus, the response below 100Hz down to 60. We know that speaker pretty much stops reproducing below 45Hz.
Now, recording engineers as myself used these pretty much exclusively from 71 (4310) through mid to latter 80s.
The primise was- "you can hear the songs as the recording engineer balanced them"
I wonder what he thinks of the more expensive JBL studio series vs. these. I think these were the mass market crap that JBL produced vs. the much better larger 43xx models and such...
Would like to see the crossover you made for it in the video.
I owned a pair of JBL L50's that I purchased late 70's I think I had them right up to the mid 90's when I started getting into home theater and moved on. I remember cranking those things pretty good and never had much to complain about sound wise. A pretty good three way monitor with 10 inch woofer that played good and low.
In any case my question is, what is the point of owning a pair of vintage speakers if you plan to modify them? As someone who experienced 70's equipment, I can say it was good, it was fun, but I wouldn't go back. And if you are going back to a different era of sound, why screw with it and turn it into something it isn't? Makes no sense to me.
I remember some of the old JBL speakers. I was never a fan compared to some of their competitors. I often wondered what people saw (heard) in them. I was a fan of the ESS Amt tower that Team Electronics had back then. Let’s see how Danny does.
I had some ESS bookshelves that I really liked.
Troels Gravesen talks about the original L100, and said the crossover was a ‘mess’. Good drivers, poor XOs.
He was right.
@@jim9930What are some 5inch mid-range speakers designed in the 60's that smoke these? You said by "any standard" so let's look at equivalent drivers of that era. If they were never a good driver please list a few other drivers of that era that are vastly superior.
@@chrislesnar Bozak B209C.
I always thought the positioning of the drivers was odd , to say the least , but then I thought that maybe JBL knew something that I didn't.
Another big problem with this speaker: the Qts of the woofer is close to 0.5, so it really wants to be in a sealed box. In JBL’s reflex box, it has a nasty peak around 55-60 Hz, below which it drops off rapidly. In partial defense of JBL, it was designed before Thiele and Small’s seminal work.
I'm very curious about the vintage Pioneer speakers. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, I dismissed them as JBODs. (Just A Bunch of Drivers - stuffed into a box). To me, they looked and sounded like that. I was also not impressed by all the chromed plastic. But then I fell in love with the Kenwood LSP-9000Ds. Quite honestly, those were also JBODs with plastic "beauty rings", but I was young and still had a lot to learn.
I'm curious about whether I was right about the Pioneers back then.
The upgrade on the Pioneer HPM-100's turned out great. There is a video on them too. Next up is a HPM-60 and a HMP-150.
@@dannyrichie9743 I looked up the manual on the hifiengine web site. And their response curve looks nothing like your measurements. I trust your measurements over their "liars sheet" any day. The fact that your "after upgrade" response measurement is better than their brochure is a testament to your superlative skill.
You can tell there's going to be problems whenever you see drivers shoehorned in every which way. The CS-822a, 922a and 903s are fine examples. You just know they have all kinds of off axis problems just by looking at them.
Then again, just look up those Kenwoods I bought way back then and... well, live and learn, I guess. Here I am embarrassing myself.
@@morlidorNot in the UK they ain't!
@@morlidor In stock form, they were a mess.
@@morlidor A good room, proper placement, and good gear really helps, but in this case the before and after differences of the upgrade is significant enough to easily hear the improvements on any system.
The Troel Gravensen upgrade crossover came out over 7 years ago.
For half price!!! 390€ today
Can you show us a schematic of the crossover you built for this?
No, but if you buy the kit, then you get the schematic.
@@dannyrichie9743 I sent you a message on your site. Thanks.
Chuck a bunch of pretty looking drivers in a big box with lots of ting and boom, That was the 70's! Nice job on even attempting to tame them.
It would have been interesting to see the horizontal and vertical off axis response changes with the speaker flipped upside down.
it would be the same, just the direction would be the opposite.
It is the same.
Would not just replacing the midrange be cheaper AND better? The range from 500 to 6K is covered by MANY wide band 5" drivers.
Listen up all you vintage jbl fans, the man speaks the sad truth unfortunately 😮💨
LOL...JBL fans gonna key your car! (but they crank, man!) I'm always amazed how many really popular speakers just suck....and people love 'em anyway.
Jbl wants you to hear the truth "loud" like at a concert hall or stadium. One of the leaders in concert venue. At the music event is the music sound out of phase yes, maybe but no one cares its live music. JBL brought the concert sound home. But I agree what GR Research explains is correct.
I wanted to be a JBL fanboy but I could never learn sign language.
popular usually doesn't correlate to quality with the general public.
look at all these klipsch amazon customers.
smartest move for klipsch was selling on amazon👍
@@JurMalafi 😆
Like Pioneers HPM 100 which fans love for some reason. I had a pair... twice. I really tried to give them a chance but the abrasiveness and listening fatigue became intolerable.
Some of us knew they sucked when everyone else wanted them! And laugh like crazy at those suckered into the rerelease of the L100!
The L100 could drill holes in your flesh. They made Cerwin Vegas sound neutral.
They sold a lot of those made to be loud L100s not much to them. So they could make good ones like the L110s, much better sounding speaker. I still have them tried them bouth out side by side. Could tell right away how much better the L110s were. They have a much better and advanced for then crossover. If you can ever try a pair I would say they are close to the KLH 5s.
@@ChicagoRob2 Look what they did to that poor guy's martini! I "married" a pair of L88's. And I was a Cerwin Vega rep back then. So ya, I knew them! Gene Czerwinski gave us a plant tour. Because dome drivers were very popular then, he glued half a basketball onto a woofer cone to have a dome woofer as a joke!
@@terrybergstrom2977 Still JBLs. Just Be Loud! Though as other's mentioned, not quite Cerwin Vega's!
Danny, have you ever looked at a Klipsch La Scala ? I am close to purchasing them without hearing them first. Mostly because of the fantastic reviews. I am not a bass guy. I love the mids and highs.
I had a guy bring one in. I have a complete set of measurements on them. The response was all over the place, and the boxes buzzed like crazy. In fact, the cabinet buzzing might have been the worst I have ever seen. The customer made a plan and wanted to line them with some bracing, No Rez, and lay on a 3/4" decorative hardwood panel to the sides to control the cabinet buzzing. He then wanted us to design new crossovers for them to balance out the response and try to fix the time arrival issues of the drivers. The plan was all set, but then he said that before he leaves he wanted to hear our system. Two songs in to hearing the NX-Treme his hole plan changed. He ordered a pair of NX-Tremes and said he was moving the La Scalas to the garage.
😅😅😅joking. Paying overprized numbers and no bass. >60hz? You are a fool
@@dannyrichie9743 do you remember if his La Scala's were AL5's ? I heard the same thing about the early models of the La Scala but I thought they fixed it in the AL5. ??? No ?
@@dannyrichie9743 Perhaps if I were to hear your speakers , I would love them too. Unfortunately, there are no reviews of the NX-Tremes anywhere outside of your channel. Please consider sending a pair out to Steve Guttenberg for a review. I am ready to purchase my last set of speakers now.
@@clasvirhodes4969 Check our forum at the Audio Circle. There is a ton of feedback there. Also, if I were to send speakers for review it would be to a reviewer that has a properly set up room that would allow them to hear the capabilities of a world class speaker like this.
Have to agree with Danny on this one. I had a set of 4312’s. Horrendous
I have just restored a pair. Wow What a sound
I love seeing the upgrades more than expensive new speakers being ulgraded
Wow! We as diy RS have better technology than the big manufacturers did in the 70s.
@@morlidor I'm sure some sound really good. I have a pair of hpm 60 I was going to restore but I have so many better speakers that I have built myself that I would want to replace all the drivers and redesign the crossover and all it really would be is a box to me and at that I would have to find woofers that would work with the internal volume.
@@morlidor I have put a lot of money into my reference pair and they are multi layer MDF covered with.75 solid oak. It's not even a comparison. They look like furniture
Lol! I have these speakers in my office connected to a McIntosh MC2300 Amplifier. They get loud, but lordy they sound terrible.
I think your MC2300 would have a bit to do with that. Not a great amp at all.
I googled it and manufacturers started to use anechoic chambers and swept frequency testing in the 1930'a
Dan thinks he is the savior to the loudspeaker world , these speakers came out in 1973, professional studio
Monitors , they are enjoyable ( re cap them to save the tweeters) and a great piece of audio history. I bring mine of now and then . Most of the older jbl’s are very well made and enjoyable to listen to.