Zero feed-in solution to power the house from the battery (and stay legal)
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 30. 07. 2021
- OK, so, here is with what solution I came up with to power my house from the battery in the of-grid-garage. I need to ensure, that I don' use the battery during the day as long as the solar on the house is operational and is feeding power back into the grid. I also, cannot dig any new trenches or pull another cable through to the house for an additional supply.
I found the SUN Grid Tie Inverter with limiter sensor which may exactly work as I need it. It seems to be too good to be true what this unexpensive inverter can do. I will fully show you the features in the next video and we will start the testing with connecting the battery and solar.
You can find the SUN Grid Tie inverter with limiting sensor in the 1kW and 2kW version here:
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I've been thinking about this since you mentioned it a few videos ago. I'm looking to disconnect some of my house loads from the grid and connect them to the output of a hybrid inverter. This way the disconnected load is no longer directly connected to the grid - just connected to the hybrid inverter output. The loads are then powered by a combination of solar/battery/ and incoming grid power as programmed into the hybrid inverter. I shouldn't need any transfer switches to do this, unless I want a failsafe for the hybrid inverter. It took me a while to get it this simple.
A hybrid inverter so you sell power to utility? If not then off-grid inverter.
@@mrzed6597 OK, I get your point - Thanks. I was planning to completely isolate the loads and attach them to an off grid inverter.
@@donnymeyer1984 It is like many of us do. This is the way :)
If you can generate enough solar and have sufficient battery storage, you can go off-grid directly. If not (like me), I'll stay connected.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Nope. This inverters are Off-grid With grid support (ACin, ACout port). Not like your Victron that is simple Off-grid (only ACout)
Thank god that in the UK the supplier responsibility ends at there meter after that it is up to the home owner, many people have installed an isolator switch so you can upgrade as you want and not call out the supplier to pull the main fuse and put it back in again (at a fee of course) when you need to to any upgrades or a consumer unit change.
We have this isolator switch as well and I can pretty much install everything I want afterwards as long as it complies with the regulations. These inverters are just for testing purposes to see if this would be a viable solution from a technical standpoint.
Dear Andy, when I saw this inverter on your table, I had a strong feeling of deja-vu. The technical solution you found is good, but please be very careful with this inverter. I used two such inverters three years ago and I have had unpleasant experiences with both. They failed about 6 months after I installed them. And the defect was at both the same, short circuit at the DC terminals. If i did not supply them with good fuses, there was a high risk of fire.So, please be careful and use a good fuse on the DC power supply for this inverter. One of them I repaired and sold, and the other one I still have in the my garage.
I'm extremely careful and this is just a possible solution and a test. So all good.
Short-circuit at the DC terminals means blown MOSFETs on the DC side. Can it be that you did not configure properly the amps / watts and you wanted to draw more than 2kw? But yes, fuses are mandatory. If you had LiFePo4 battery, you would have had a BMS which would protect for short-circuit.
Thanks for video. I like to do same on my off-grid greenhouse. What is the Sunoff model your using ?
Hi. Do I need to use as many limiter-clamps on the line as I have Inverter? Or can I use only one Limiter sensor clamp and wire them together? Asking because I haven't much space in my junction box
Andy, as by the comments, you have opened "Pandora's Box" on this one. On one side you have the Code-Conformists, China-Haters, Your-System-Notunderstanders, Owners-but- Usingitwrongers versus the Lawbreakerpack, DIY-Successivsystem-Builders, General-Gridtie-Systemunderstanders, etc
@Will says its not UL1741, so it is a killer machine connected to the grid. Well, the inverter internals are the same as they are used in a few Chinese Tier-2 Grid-tie inverter brands. They are built by DEYE. The only difference is, that the Anti -islanding system is different as the inverter is powered by the AC-side while typical Chinese grid-tie inverters are powered on the DC-side and AC is monitored for faults. My experience with the SUN inverter is, that it will power down with the slightest blink in the Grid. What it doesn't do, is having the required standby time to reconnect, as that will be just a factor of how long the boot-up is taking. I follow the opinion of Jack Rickard who always said, no Lineman had ever been killed by a Grid-tie inverter.
I always read about people saying they have failing units. But many times it is in conjunction with using the high DC-voltage version with battery voltage on the very low limit. Another issue might be the switching by timers on the AC-side, while the DC is powered. In my system I am switching the DC-side (have a video on that on my channel). The concern was a high standby power when AC stays connected. But that was debunked by members on the secondlifestorage forum, as the load is almost purely capacitive and the power factor is only 0.03 which makes it a 2W draw in standby only (we all thought its 70W before).
About the not accurate tracking of export I want to say, sure, adjustment of the limiter always takes time, no mater which inverter. But the utility as well doesn't bill in seconds intervals. If you find the inverter still always overshooting and exporting a few Watts, there are videos on YT where people put potentiometers in the line of the CT and adjust that error. I find my inverter overshoot up to a max of 20W (by my own meter, I cannot see what the utility meter reads) sometimes, but I don't care. And as you are allowed to export, a few Wh a day would not be visible for the utility as well I guess.
I think, especially when you say this solution is only meant for some years, this is exactly what fits your purpose. Save your money for the final HQ solution, when your contract is over.
Jeez, I'm testing the inverters đ€·ââïž Arne, if you don't like them, don't buy and don't watch...
Thanks!
Thank you very much, James, much appreciated!
How can i make it work with the smart meter? Here in Canada majority of us have smart grid meters.. also my solar set up is in my detached garage I have a ponytail 40amp breaker grid panel..can the limiter be placed there?
Iâm doing something similar here in North Dakota!
What device/inverter are you using for that?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Iâm using the same inverter as you. The Sun 2000 G2 shipped here is split phase 250 vac. I have it hooked up to a 240vac timer
My timer is set to come on after my solar panels stop producing (right now 17:45 to 08:30). My LIFEPO4 are 4p16s (60800 cells) 220 amps per 4P. I have the limited hooked up, but I set my inverter to come on manually (435watts) because I have my AC sub panel in my garage and I donât use any electrical power at night in the garage. ( so the limited wouldnât have the inverter come on) Having it set at 9 amps it feeds into my main panel in my house to help offset some of my energy consumption at night. I usually have a mini duct heat pump running all the time. I plan on turning up the amps when I get my 16 - 280amp cells from China. Shipping has really slowed down here in the U.S.. I will be making a video on my unit tomorrow, check it out on CZcams underâSteve Dutcherâ. My BMS in a 150 amp Daly, Iâm very impressed with it.
Andy. Hi .. if I don't have ac power can I use this inverter to generate 230
@@ehabsabah9485 not this one.
There more than 2 versions there's 4.
2x 1000W, one 24v and one 48v,
2x 2000W, one 48v and one 60v.
The H model (45-90v) is 1800W continuous, the T model (60-110v) is 1950 W.
My friend from Australia... In the victron diagram you would just need to move the current sensor to BE between the main PV inverter and the Multiplus... All energy would go to the grid and the victron uses the battery and solar first... I don't know if the law permits that for your situacion but it would work!
That's what you say, but this is not what the diagrams and manuals say for the Multiplus inverters...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia it basically makes the AC inverter for the big array part of the grid supply. Then the Multiplus ii and the quadros Will consider the energy coming from there as "grid energy".
The only problem for you is the placement of the inverter (is it placed near the main grid AC input? Is it placed in your house?)
And also the quadros and the Multiplus ii can feed back INTO the grid.
I've installed such systems in Portugal and some clients want it like i explained before. We don't have the 54 cents... We only have 4 to 8 cents and we don't have the rules you explained in a previous vĂdeo. We have people that have systems like yours for 10 years now and they want to Change in order to consume everything they produce because we pay 14 cents per kWh and sell the excess for 4 cents... It's Basic maths.
How are you getting so much c/kWh for your feed in?
Che software usare per collegare il SUNN-1000G2 via wifi al PC? Grazie
Get your self a SunSynk hybrid inverter... I have one with back feed on the aux port 8kw solar and 10kw on the inverter.
Thank you.
Hi,
I have a grid tied 16kw system with no battery backup.
I need more electricity to meet my needs but do not want to mess with the 16kw system.
I want to install a separate system about 6kw and a battery sized for the 6kw system.
All I want the 6kw system to do is charge the battery.
I want to hook up something that will send electricity from my battery to my home when the solar on the house is not producing and or the grid is down.
I know this video is a little old and I was hoping you could simplify what and offer me the best options.
Thank you!
Can you have more than one of these grid tie inverters working as you suggest, using the ct? Or would they confuse each other?
No bother, I just got to the end of the video đ€Šđ»ââïž
If the ct is only connected to a single leg how does the inverter outputting 240 know how much the other leg has for its load? Say loads are imbalanced and the leg you are not monitoring is less than the leg you are monitoring. Wouldn't you then feed some power power onto the grid unknowingly?
The Deye Hybrid inverters can do this
I have been using this inverter for 3 years now with 10 kW of 18650 and it runs my house from 6pm to sun up and my main grid tie starts. I have not had an electricity bill for the 3 years infact they pay me. Where do you get the lithium iron phosphate batteries from? I want to add on more batteries.
Thanks for sharing, Garry. Have a look in the description of the video, there are links to these batteries with further information.
Care to share a vid of your setup? We want to do what you have done.
hello, how many meters away can we install the CT?
That depends on the CT. For this one, there is a 20m extension but I guess, you could try 50m. Maybe have to increase the diameter a bit to compensate for voltage drop in the sensor cable. But that needs to be tested.
My SUN inverter (2K) worked nicely for almost a year (ok, never generated more that 1.5kW, but I guess itâs because it was connected to Teslas (model 3) battery banks 2S2P, so 50.4V max, and 38V min)), but after a year it suddenly dropped to 700W max and couple of months later totally stoped indicating an error âGrid errorâ⊠Bugger, donât know what to do next - buy new one of should I finally go to Victron Multiplus? But I do have 12kW totally no name inverter from Ali and it does the job extremely well (tried a load over 6kW and it hardly gets warm). But itâs totally off grid one, so mot possible to integrate into the system (although I was using it to heat up our hot water cylinder using couple of contractors and couple of Sonoffâs). Maybe anyone knows who are the original producer of SUN inventors or, maybe someone has schematics? (I am electronic engineer by degree, but doing reverse engineering isnât reasonable just the single device)
Victron Multiplus 2 can also work with an external CT (current transformer) and ESS software that drives the inverter to keep the grid current at 0.
And you can also easily control the inverter on-off with an external low-voltage dry contact relay (the inverter has a REMOTE ON / OFF input).
PS1: you forgot to tell us how many amps of sunshine you have!
PS2: you were wearing the wrong shirt!
I found a schematic for a Multiplus using a CT but... here is the thing: I would need to make sure the solar form the house still get's exported to the grid instead of charging the batteries. So the Multiplus needs to stay turned on for that to happen. I could not find any information if I can set the Multiplus to prioritise the grid export for this solar instead of charging the battery.
All scenarios I've see so far are like the following: solar powers your load, excess solar charges you battery, if they are full, it exports to the grid. I certainly don't want to charge the batteries with this precious solar energy. As a priority, it needs to go back in the grid.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Configure it. Turn off the charger so it never charges. Set it so it's only goal is to add current downstream to zero out net current toward the house. If current is flowing from the house toward the line it just goes idle. Set up a remote disable. This Multiplus is off to the side so doesn't need to be on. Only the current transformer is in the main line. 2 years ago so have you done this yet?
Well I have a 7000 W PV array coupled to a grid tie only inverter with its AC output that pushes all of its power into the hybrid inverter and it does it all day long. We call this AC coupling, and the hybrid inverter allows the battery to be charged, and to power loads in the home and it will backfeed excess power to the grid. The hybrid inverter and 16 kWh of battery is down to around $7500 in cost total. Then you have the cost of your solar panels and your AC grid tie inverter.
I thoroughly enjoy your humor. It truly makes me đ
Thank you.
Would you recommend and plug and play battery that would work with this inverter?
It will works with all batteries from 48V - 90V. Just connect them with the appropriate safety devices and it will work. That's plug'n play, isn't it?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia yes it is! Thanks. I do have a follow up question.
We already have a 10kw grid tied inverter than is connected to 8.3kw of solar panels ( East and North) We are export limited to 5kw to send back to the grid. We are looking at getting a 2kw Solar Grid Tie Inverter with Limiter Sensor that we can connect without permits to DIY solar panels that we can face West. Looking to connect a battery too to the 2kw inverter.
Will we run into issues if both inverters are trying to send power back to the grid and we are hitting the 5kw limit?
Wow! 54c AUD = 32p GBP. They offer only 0.5p - 5.6p a kWh in the UK now.
FYI Octopus-Outgoing-Fixed gives you 15p per kWhr. Octopus-Outgoing-Agile pays you whatever the going rate is which recently has been in the 50-70p per kWhr range.
Hi Andy, is there any similar inverter which works on 12v battery?
Not that I'm aware of. I don't think there are any 12V inverters which can be grid connected.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia thanks Andy
I believe Outback still manufactures 12 Volt battery/grid tie inverters.
if you put the current clamp between the input of the multiplus and the pv inverter on the left then if you can set the export of the multiplus to 0 Watts, it should run the loads with the power it needs from the solar/batteries connected to the multiplus, then any excess load would first be taken from the "export" solar inverter but not charge the batteries from it unless you set the multiplus to charge from gird. the Export Solar would continue to export as normal.
I think.
I makes sense to me anyway. Could be miles out, if the multiplus doesnt use a current clamp to work out it's export
Hi Andy. Can you write now your system 2023 on paper?đ you have now more solar panels and bigger Victron system.
Simple solution use a ats unit for the house with off-grid system that way u can isolate off and on grid system
bien !
Do you still use this? Because I havent heard from it
I know this video is old, but what the heck goes wrong in sunny hot australia if your grid company has any right to tell you what to do after the energy suppliers meter
I know this is not good for your current battery placement, but I would suggest using an inverter with power passthrough between your inverters for the contract and your loads. With the power passthrough it would only make power for your house/loads and not back feed. And with the settings for it some can be programmed to use power from the grid or your solar/batteries as your main to power your loads, while still being able to power your house in a grid down event. And power passthrough inverters, that I seen, can recharge your batteries from the grid and/or generator. Victron does make inverters with power passthrough, but I only seen up to 6k on output from the website, I could have missed higher output models. Another one you can look at is Sol-ark 12K for its power passthrough.
Yeah, but I need to feed the energy back from the load side in reverse through the inverter back to the grid. I don't want to use this energy to charge my battery either.
Why am i feeding the grid from my Solar (producing far more than my usage) and not getting any benefit or discount from my electricity company?? And im still being fed from the grid and having to pay gigantic impossible amounts?
Usually your meter should either run backwards or count the fed in power on a second counter which then should be financially compensated by your power company or grid company
Why would you use a sunoff device??? When there is sun and you don't use any power then they inverter won't give you any power, and if the sun goes down it then the power will come from the grid.
Also if you won't discharge the battery to 0% then you can set a stop voltage so it doesn't keep using the battery and a start voltage for when the battery is fully charged.
So I can't see the purpose of this device?
Thats what I was thinking.. the ct sensor measure direction of current hence if solar is exporting this inverter should not exporting. Hence why use the sonoffs for daylight turn on ?
An Off Grid system could run one single inverter and get 8kw (MPP8048max). Its off grid however the inverter does have a grid input and an internal synchronized 240v change over switch. This type of inverter cannot feed back to the grid but can switch to the grid if batteries are running low. You can keep your Victron battery charging system which is very good but run the inverter off the 48v. The issue is you need to have an off grid breaker panel. So in my system nearly all the grid inverter system returns power to the grid and the Off grid system runs most of my house.
That is one solution, But again, it would mean a major change in cabling and I would need to install a transfer switch.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia The Pip 8048max has a transfer switch built into the inverter.
I have wondered if those would be good for like an off grid or something where 1 big enough inverter might be expensive or expensive all at once or using them the same but in conjunction with a generator
They are grid following inverters though, not grid forming ones. They will not work in an off grid system.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia they should with a regular inverter
@@james10739 I would hesitate to connect these inverters to an off-grid inverter. If something goes wrong with the limiter, they then try to 'export' through the off-grid inverter.
@james10739 since they have "anti islanding" they should not work with another inverter, they can tell the difference somehow.
I believe SMA has a solution though, being able to have a "mini grid" for a few isolated homes not connected to a standard utility.
Hey Andy, the solution is actually Verry straight forward... Use a multiplus 2, with a current transformer coil, and set it to inverter only mode for as long as the contract lasts, after that you have a hybrid system at the flick of a switch.
Your battery will only be charged by the mppts, and all your other gear can stay as it is.
They are available in 3 and 5 kw, so depending on your largest load you could do with just 2 in your case.
Come to think about it, if you use the power output from the multiplus, you might not even need the coils
Correct - the Victron will not export to grid battery power - in most countries that would make no sense at all ( from a financial point of view ) . You can put timers on the Victron MP
using a GX device
@@petermerle that's not his main consern I believe, he wants to export as much of the houses solar as he can for that sweet sweet moula at 50 some Cent a kwh. So by putting the victron in inverter only mode you would not charge the battery when there is overproduction, instead export it to grid, and when production drops below consumption, the victron will start compensating for the load. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
A victron with GX device CAN export to grid is you lower you grid offset to a negative value. I can drain by battery at 15kWh if I want to.
So the problem is that the solar which needs to feed in is connected to the load directly, so at the output of the Multiplus. So far I could only see scenarios where the excess solar is been used to charge the batteries and only if they are full it will be feed into the grid.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia as far as I know that Does not Matter, you can install the multiplus in parralel or in series, if you turn off charging it will expert everything to grid no matter where the solar is connected.
@@bjornemmy You could set charge current to minimum on the MP ( not sure if its 1 A or 0 A ) Then all PV goes to grid . Not sure why you need permission from grid operator to fit the EM. You could fit it after your main isolator
Victron can do the sameâŠ
U need a GX or Venus device (little computer)
Yeah! But compare the price of Victron with this ...
â@@schumerlucian but also compare the quality and functions of a victron inverter and those sun ones
Hi Andy, check sunsynk or deye hybrid inverter. those 2 inverter maybe a solution for your need. they have feature "time of use" and can limit output power to grid or CT clamp. Also they can be parallel.
I checked them, they will not work because I'm feeding energy back from the house (load side) to the grid.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia you don't have to put your house load to load side, just put it on the grid side. their grid port is bidirectional port. So the energy can flow in and out from that side.
@@rmdjapri right, I see... thanks.
Excellent information. Should work great!
Thank you.
Andy, does that mean that the system does not work in a blackout as the grid tied inverter needs to see the grid voltage to work?
It's not an off-grid system for the next 7 years until the contract runs out, that is correct. Only the garage will have power then...
Any grid tied inverter must be "anti islanding" which means it will not export to the grid during blackouts, even if there is another grid tie inverter connected to the grid.
I just watched more of your video. It makes me think of my corporate working days when there were often bureaucratic solutions to technical problems - usually with predictable results. Here, it seems there is a legal problem and technical solutions are being sought. Hmmm...
It is total madness with this red-tape...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia not really, its just trying to stop abuse of a feed in tariff, you are free to opt out of it.
I disagree.
The Sunsynk Hybrid Parity Inverters can work in a bi-directional setup and can be DC coupled and separated from your Existing solar PV installation by using a separate UPS consumer unit for your critical loads ( lights power outlets etc) "Other" hybrid inverters can typically just be a charger and PV-inverter squeezed into one box.
good day sir, my deye hybrid 8kw is having a feed in, on my solarman app, is this normal or this is a problem
how much does incoming electricity cost you?
21c/kWh or 17.9c/kWh ion the other tariff.
Incoming electrify is say 21c and out going you get 54c, sounds crazy. I pay same incoming but out going get only 13c kWh. is that the case?
@@gedshep663 yea he's on the legacy tariff. Was only available for a few years right at the start of the grid feed in program in qld.
Govt pays most of that money. At the time it was like $10-20k to get a 5kw solar system
@@kyba74 understand, paid 4000$ including upgrades inverter [frlonius] which was $1000 extra, 6.6kw, so me best to use solar while the sun shines. Did buy 304 ah lifepo for my bus following your recommendation Qishou. Thanks
Those inverters will also not power you on grid failure and are also not legal here in Australia
They do look very much like the one I bought. Mine is for a wind turbine but is not certified for grid connection here in Spain. For me itâs not a problem as itâs connected to the output side of my Quattro and not the grid.
Grid failure is not a concern at the moment. But you're right, they are grid following inverters, not grid forming inverters.
You are not ALLOWED YOU MUST AGREE TO AGREE
54c per kw, when my batteries are full my solar exports excess energy back to the grid free of charge - i want to give the grid 0 zero/nothing, its my energy that i paid to store, it should be up to me if i want it exported or not, you can sign up for a feed in tariff here in the UK but to be honest its a joke what they give you, i think its about 5p, at present i am looking at a zero export controller to add to the system
Have a look at the Victron system, they do zero export.
I always think: if my battery is full and all my load is satisfied from solar and I still have a solar power surplus, why not selling it for 5p/kWh? That's still better than throttling down the production and get nothing...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia that's true, I just prefer to not help the energy companies make more than they already do
Why not just wire the existing grid tie solar in front of a hybrid inverter?
Because he would need to lay a new cable between his house and the meter box on his garage for that.
@@wiedapp Exactly. Also I think he does not understand the Off-grid (with grid support) inverter concept. Calls it a hybrid all the time (only marketing people do that who does not understand the difference)
A separate cable is not an option.
I'm certain I've seen the Solark do exactly what you want to do.
And he is not in the USA so he could easily buy the deye version. Same hardware, slightly different software. For about 2000 USD compared to sol-ark which is MUCH more expensive.
Solark don't sell in Australia. I don't know if the same inverters are sold under a different brand though.
@@alexsimmons1803 Yes , Deye . for 2k
Solark, Deye or Sunsynk inverters are all hybrid (basically the same). I'm any of them will do what you are trying to achieve.
Hey! The victron mppt have a special function on the relais which is called *daylight sense * which turns the internal relais on, when your garage senses any daylight, you could use that to trigger the new inverters, so they shut off, when you sense daylight
Ah, great. My MPPTs don't have a relay built-in. Maybe only the larger ones do?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia oh. Yeah I run the smart solar 150/100 on my RV and the relay has like 10 different settings, I run my cooling fans on the daylight mode so it's all quite at night
multiplus II also has CTs as accessory
But can it feed power back from the load side during the day and turn on the battery if there is no export any more?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Yes it can. Multiplus is used in situations where equipments need more power than grid has.
when there is a grid power failure does the inverter turn off and stop injecting into the grid ie how does it know there isn't a linesman on the grid side ?
It has anti islanding
Great video
Thank you.
they generally pay a lot less for any power to grid
I know this is an older video, but considering how anal the regulators (protective of their mates) are in Australia, I reckon you would have a very hard time trying to get that to pass here (especially in Victoria where they have their own state energy regulator department).
It sounds to me that you're complicating the situation more than needs to be ...why don't you just feed in the maximum kilowatts your contract allows you ( To get a fat check at the end of the month) and do a separate parallel offgrid or hybrid system for the home!Just keep it between your lips and Gods ears!đ
Hi Andy, can you sense the power from your house solar system with a CT clamp, is yes, you can use a firmware like ESPurna, ESPeasy or others to switch your sonoff 2 on without using timers. This will make it very simple and not reliant on timers which need to be adjusted to your solar situation changes during all seasons. Also when you might have heavy rain or other weather which shutsdown your solar from the house it will switch on your "off-grid" system to supply your house. A raspberry pi can see the load on the CT and calls your sonoff to switch on or off đ Nice solution by the way, I had some hope for you the old connection to your garage was somehow usable.
Thanks Edward. I can access the cables from the house solar, yes. I need to look into this and see how I could make it work automatically.
Will your sockets and wiring be up to multiple inverters plugged into the same circuit? Say a 15amp ring main, appropriately fused..
I'm not going to plug it in to any sockets, this was just to demonstrate how easy it is to connect.
The inverter outputs only 7-8A at 240V, so far below the 20A breaker the GPO is connected to.
Is your beer fridge off-grid?
You could try to running it with your Blucetti and a couple of panels, maybe take your house water pump off-grid with it too!
Andy, that was kind of a confusing explanation... maybe your next CZcams video will make it clearer..
I'm not convinced back feeding via a GPO is legal.
How good is this at managing sharp drops in loads? Could it momentarily register some export on the grid meter? That would raise some eyebrows at night time.
Alex you are right, in Australia it is not legal at all, under no circumstances!!
Of course people still do it, but no not legal!
I'm not trying to be the fun police here, just stating the facts.
You are right. After sharp drop from high load there is backfeeding for 2-3s.
And will it have a double fault tolerant isolator for anti islanding
@@Muppet_Interfector These inverters are powered directly from grid so in case of blackout they immediately go down.
@@ValRigoli So the timer should be use to turn off the grid tied inverter at night, not at daytime
Please stop calling it hybrid inverter! That is an off-grid inverter. A hybrid inverter is a Grid-tie inverter too and sells power to utility. What you bought is a simple Grid-tie inverter with limiter. It is not off-grid so in a blackout you will be sitting in the dark (again :)). You can not parallel a lot of Grid-tie inverters. Every inverter rises the V. It is a serious problem in residential areas where a lot of houses have solar
No, no, no, this is a grid following inverter, not a grid forming inverter. It is NOT an 0ff-grid inverter at all!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia MPP Solar sells hybrid and off-grid for more than 7 years now (experts). They seems to hate this marketing bst too as in they download page starts:
Term Definition
HYBRID = grid injection capable, energy flow to grid is TWO-WAY
OFF-GRID = grid injection NOT capable; energy flow to grid is ONE-WAY only
The off-grid inverters exact term is Off-grid With grid support. As it has an ACin and an ACout port.. Your Victron is a simple Off-grid inverter.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Also there is no such a term as "grid following" and "forming". They are grid-tie and off-grid.
Thanks Andy. Where do you buy your Sonoffs from?
Usually just from AliExpress or eBay.
Thank You.
Very intersting, but law driven setup. Strange but thank you for sharing with us
I know, bending over backwards to make it somehow work.
Definitely that is one way an off grid generator panel in the house is another I use both so whatever works.
You have 54.2c input to Grid, wow, who is your provider? I am 100Km from you in sunny lockdown Coomera.. I have AGL as my provider and only get 15c input and am keen to find another provider with a better input tariff
Iâd say Andy took up the earlier incentives to put on solar. Time limited offer that is no longer available. 15c sounds pretty good, I am on 8.4c so your doing better.
His solar system would have been fitted some years ago when the government had higher feed in tariffs
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Nice đđ» the solution of the Problems đđ»
Den Wechselrichter auf der Phase wo auch die PV des Hauses dran ist, brauchst du eigentlich nicht schalten. Sobald deine PV vom Haus mehr liefert als du gerade, im Haus, benötigst speist der SUN nicht mehr ein. Weil er Negative Leistung registriert.
Genau das dachte ich mir auch gerade, warum sollte man noch eine extra Abschalteinrichtung bauen. Wenn der Wechselrichter nur den fehlenden Strom ausgleichen soll, es kann auch mal ein regnerischer Tag sein, PV bringt nicht genug, dann wĂŒrde der WR den fehlenden Strom gegen drĂŒcken. Am besten wĂ€re natĂŒrlich alle drei Phasen zu detektieren, aber das geht mit der Klemme nicht wegen der Phasenverschiebung, oder habe ich gerade einen Denkfehler? :)
@@IchBinsBistDus nein hast keinen Denkfehler. Es gibt aber doch Varianten wie man 3 Phasen mit einem GerÀt kompensieren kann.
Das ist der gleiche Effekt als wenn man den CT falsch herum um das Kabel legt? Mein Inverter erzeugt dann immer noch Power auch wenn es negativ anzeigt? Hatte mir das auch mit L3 ueberlegt und war euberzeigt, das das dort automatisch gehen sollte solange PV noch einspeist. Werde es nochmal probieren...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia ja genau, das ist dann dieser Effekt.
I probably just missed it, but how are those sonoff things controlled?
Victron has a remote control option, is it possible use that? Put current transformer to house inverter wires and set it turn victron inverter on when there is no longer current coming out of house inverter. There is also current tranformer for victron so it can do same as those SUN inverters.
You can also turn off charger from victron, just set charge voltage low enough,
I dont know :-D I need sleep xD
The sonnoffs are really versatile. They can be flashed with tasmota firmware. From there the possibilities are endless. Mqtt, http, timers. It could be controlled from his victron pi that runs already. Just be aware that although these switches are 15a I think that they are really 15 Chinese amps. More like 10a.
I have a similar setting for 5 years. It works with no problem. 2 years ago I change the sonoff and install a Shelly 1pm. In my case the only problem, since Iâm not using batteries (Iâm just using solar panels on the dc side) during the night they need to be disconnected because they consume about 50 to 70 watts. The best of this setup is that Shelly and sonoff can be used to monitor the power used. For the monitoring part selly1pm is better.
Great, thanks for sharing. I've got a lot of Sonoffs in use already so sticked with the same system.
geez you get better rates than we do here in sa i only get 9.6 cents feed in
see tell me if i am wrong they are grid tie inverters so they detect the sinewave of the grid power and then allow it to send power the same way the house solar does so if the grid goes down all hour house also goes off as they is nothing producing the sinewave for the grid inverters to work ? so really this is only to limit the amout of electric you pay for and not to give you power in a grid down situation ?
Correct đ
Yes, it's a grid following inverter, it will turn off during a blackout. That's not my concern though and expected.
Sir the usage of two defferent inverters is worth and can do what you want. I use last three years this compination and works perfectly. In my installation I use a three phaces Fronius Symo 5KW to feed back energy to the grid and a Victron Multiplus 3KW connected at the one phace with the most critical loads (routers, servers, pcs, security stuff and lighting of my house) .
Victron Multiplus has a 220Volts input, a 220 volts output for crical loads (that means that these loads are continius suplied even if public grid fails) and a second output 220Volts avaliable only when the grid power is OK.
Now: Multiplus is feeded by the grid and by the battery banck in case of grid failure and feed power to two defferent sircuits (one with critical loads wich is non brake sirquit) and a scond sirquit ONLY when the GRID power is avaliable. As an extra Multiplus can keep the batteries full charged with use power from the grid .But you can change that if you turn Multiplus in only Inverter mode.(button on it`s front face extremely easyto do)
For batteries charging I use a VICTRON Smartsolar MPPT 250Volts 80Amperes PV charger.
So the workflow is : PV Pannels >Fronius 3PH+P+N 380Volts 5KW >MAIN breaker > HOUSE AND FEED BACK to PUBLIC GRID the PRODUSED POWER
PV Pnnels >Victron Smartsolar Charger >Batteries >Multiplus Inverter
One phase of GRID >multiplus in >Critical loads and NON critical loads when GRID power is avaliable and ONLY critical loads when grid fails.
For whatching the system I use Victron Venus GX module. I don`t use the second power meter as it no needed in this case and is an exta cost just to have corect power indications and nothing else. It is usable only if you want to keep public power meter at zero (no feed back) and for some FRONIUS and VICTRON APPs to have corect calculations.
I hope help you a litle.
If you want more informations schemmatic diagramms etc just contact me . I will help you as i can with pleasure!!!
Hello Vasilis, thank you very much for your comment and explanation. That sounds like the ideal solution and exactly what I'm after. How can I contact you for further information? Can you send me an email through my website off-grid-garage.com, scroll all the way down then.
Sounds like a nice system
Those units are not UL 1741 compliant, so I wouldn't try it. You can get into huge trouble connecting these devices to the grid, even if it should theoretically not backfeed. I'm not sure what your laws are, but in most places, this is a bad idea. I criticized a ton of CZcamsrs for using these in the past. If it's not UL 1741, don't connect it to grid regardless of your laws.
Can these units be used solar charge controllers and AC chargers for my battery bank? Just don't use the inverter limits?
In Australia Grid-tie inverters need to have AS4777 certificate, I think.
Thanks for the feedback, Will. Can you provide an alternative solution though?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia oh sure, buy a more expensive inverter. You really don't want a cheap grid tie inverter in general. Growatt has UL 1741 grid ties with zero export feature that you want. If I were you, I'd just continue to do Offgrid or supply a couple of your circuits with a transfer switch with an Offgrid inverter. Much easier
Yes, people in the USA connect garbage inverters all the time, but it certainly is not legal. I notice that they also seem to fail in a year or two. You get what you pay for.
All these need grid power for timing and operation, is that correct? If the grid is lost then no power fed back to grid of course and no power for the house. Have I missed something here, I thought one of the hopes was that you could power up house from your battery bank when the grid was off Andy? Can you clarify my thinking please?
Grid outage is not a concern. That's not what I build the system for. I still got the Bluetti for that đ
I would need a Victron Multiplus which can do both grid following and grid forming to keep the house running during a blackout.
Does this power lighting circuits as well?
it powers everything which is connected to this phase in your house.
Does it have a way of disconnecting from the grid when feeding back to the house so some poor line worker doesnât get fried I know the power companyâs can remotely turn off the grid tie inverters and air conditioning in Queensland I have a Victron Quattro on my boat and it has 2 seperate inputs for grid and generator and 2 outputs one only works when the generator or shore power is active and it is approved for grid feed in but is not allowed on boats for obvious reasons.
Interesting point. I think that Andy said the inverter needs to see power on the ac output for it to work.
When grid power is down this device doesn't work
These are grid following inverters. If they turn off the grid, the inverter turns off within 17.2ms (regulations says >30ms). They have ant islanding and will shut down quickly.
You could use two Sol-Arks. The one on the house could output into the generator input on the other.
14,000.00 dollars ! Yeah do that . Or buy the same one for 2k in Australia. Deye , Sunsynk .
Not possible, as it would require additional cabling from the house to the garage.
Could you not carry on using your current solar change controllers to charge the battery from the garage solar, have a multiplus with 0 charge current enabled (so no AC charge ever) and then just use the remote input on the multiplus to switch on when the solar input from the house is 0W?
Look at HomeAssistant potentially to manage the automation, it shouldn't be too much work. Forgive me if I am wildly oversimplifying or missing something.
I have a multiplus II with zero feed in running with the single phase meter. The MultiplusII can also do this kind of clamp metering. But be aware if you switch any device in your house on and of the inverter needs some time to adjust to the output. in my case if i turn the oven on and off the load gets as high as 1500 watts and slowly decrease to zero ... i takes about 3 or 4 seconds until the inverter decrease the output ... so i think you will alway push some power back to the grid ... in my case 4,4 kwh the last 90 days.
Wow, really, that is a lot of energy been pushed back!!!!
The SUN inverters do that too in extreme but take only 1-2s until they adapt. I have seen 200-700W been 'exported' for 1-2s.
But 4.4kWh is a lot
@@OffGridGarageAustralia A lot ... within 4 Month ... it is more than zero ... but its ok :)
@@OffGridGarageAustralia And i hope it will not affect your contract ... :) But as far as i understoot you right ... you can use an alternate generator but are you allowed to push back a little or do you have to disconnect ?
Very interesting Andy, As long as you are confident that your GPO and wire back to your house can handle the load, I am happy for you to do a real life test. You are my favourite electrical stunt man â€ïž đ
The house is connected with 2x40A. I've seen a power peak of 4.7kW to the house once while cooking, micro wave, kettle all at once. that was the maximum. I've got a bit of headroom there đ
You gave me an idea Andy. I have a glowatt, which I believe I can do the same with, well that is the theory.
if you keep your meter zeroed as excess power is going to the batterys i cant see them stopping the contract as they are not paying you and will just think you are using more power thus not sending it back to the grid
With that rate it is madness to use excess energy to charge a battery and not to feed it to grid.
@@1978jra this is true i think the inverters he has will mesure power in one direction so they should only kick in when it detects power been used from the grid so night time hours or really bad weather days
I'm not going to charge the batteries from my AC solar! That needs to be feed in to the grid as is. The main problem is that the AC solar sits on the load side and needs to reverse through a hybrid inverter back to the grid and NOT charging the batteries.
Helllo. Interesting solution !!! About the first part of your video, you need to get more info about AC Coupling, Frecuency Shifting and Factor 1.0 rule. Victron works welll with Fronius for AC coupling but maybe not with your actual grid tied inverter. When grid goes down, the grid tie inverter on the back up / criticals loads side will stay on and if there is not enough loads on, the current will go to the batteries., If the batteries are already full, the multiplus or any other hidrid inverter with ac coupling habillity must be able to shut down the grid tied inverter, this is generally done with frecuency shifting...
Dont need Fronus - any GT inverter that accomodates freq shifting - SMA also can do this. The multiplus also allows fro power export if you want - you set can the export limit to 0 or any other number
I think 2x Multiplus II 3000 would be a better choice. They are completely isolated between the AC and DC side by the toroidal transformer and also have a connection for an external current transformer for limiting. They are also certified to be able to operate them on the power grid.
All scenarios I've see so far are like the following:
- solar powers your load
- if there is excess solar, it charges you battery
- if the battery is full and still solar, it exports to the grid.
I certainly don't want to charge the batteries with this precious solar energy. As a priority, it needs to go back to the grid.
I haven't seen if there is a priority which can be set in the Multiplus to allow that.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia The Multi / Quattro ESS options offer interesting possibilities. It looks like you can switch the time-dependent compensation on and off via the Raspi with a small script. Maybe it's worth taking a closer look.
Andy, interesting to see your concern about having to get an electrician in to install a meter. Where I live just a few state boarders away, most of the stuff you have done in the off grid garage has to be done by an electrician.
Not a concern, but the energy provider will start asking questions about the whole setup. I have my doubts, they will understand the concept.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I doubt they will ask why someone is connecting an ET112 ct/meter. I had one installed to limit my grid tie inverter from exceeding the export limit. I am pretty sure it is placed on the consumer side of the main breaker, you donât even have to pull the house fuse to have it connected.
@@Muppet_Interfector Yeah, I've seen these meters for export limiting. That's a similar concept as with the inverters and CT. A CT is just easier as I can just do it myself without even disconnecting anything.
I think that clamp meter you connect to your mains is called a limiter.
Limiter is subsystem in the inverter (i this model it's internal limiter but there is also option to connect external limiter), clamp is CT clamp (current transformer) and it is used to generate small voltage based on current flow in Main line as input to control limiter.
I see now. The CT clamp thingy senses the current and is connected to the limiter inside the inverter case.
Yes, Mark, that is correct. It's basically just a sensor which tells the limiter inside the inverter how much power it needs to produce and at what voltage.
10 amp ring main is ok for small loads. Pushing 4kw through 2.5mm cable may be pushing it. 3rd inverter would burn your house down. You'll need to add a 6mm 32amp power point to your fuse box. That would work.
Can only agree, that setup could end up with a bunch of melting cables. Grid tie inverters is a good idea but they should be installed before the fuses at the consumer unit !
Right, but isn't one inverter for L2 and the other for L3?
@@ravnox3057 but the wire to the inverter should be fused, too
@@elektrobits3408 Thats right, but even if you use a eg. 10 A fuse you would still be able to draw 2300 watt from the inverter AND eg. 2300 Watt from the "normal" installation fuse. I dont know the fuse standard sizes (amps) for Australia but I do think that if you double the amount of watts you can drag from the outlets you could harm and burn your wiring.
The inverter pushes 7-8A max to the house. The fuses to the house can carry 40A for each phase.
Not sure where you got the 4kW and 2.5mm got from?
You can do you explain with victron ESS, using a Carlogavazzi meter with CT's also. You can manage your house grid tie pv using a second meter at the inveter output and have all monitorized with Venus and zero feed-in only from multiplus. Take a look.
rather than use the timer, can you not use another hall-effect sensor on your house grid tie inverter or solar string combo box to trigger a relay to connect the off-grid grid-tie inverter? ie set it so when basically set the overcurrent protection to whatever the smallest value is and any current it switches off the off-grid setup? Generally the hall-effect and shunts like your BMV on have facility to switch relays on current or voltage settings.
There are other solutions, yes. But it's already pretty messy with this solution, so...
Couldn't you just put the grid tied solar on the INPUT side of the hybrid inverter ac-coupled, then you're garage panels could be connected to the solar input of the hybrid inverter?
Exactly, that's how I connected my SMA injector to the MPP Solar hybrid inverter and it works perfect. Not sure if this would be legal in Australia, but it definitely works and won't blow up the hybrid inverter.
How? The solar is on the house which is the load. There is now way I could run additional cables.
â@@OffGridGarageAustralia Ok, I am not quite familiar with your cabling situation. In my case I made a contract first to feed into the grid only. The provider installed a bidirectional meter and I installed solar and a SMA on grid inverter, which is in parallel to the grid and to the house. Later I added more solar, batteries and a hybrid inverter and I connected the load of my house only to this new installation. The SMA on grid inverter is now in parallel to the grid and to the line-in of my hybrid inverter. Of course you cannot connect the on grid inverter to the load side of the hybrid inverter as you did it in your sketch. In your case you would probably need aditional load cables from your off grid garage to your house and connect the hybrid inverter's input to the line where you did the snip a few months ago. But this is just generally speaking, not knowing your cabling and legal situation.
the only answer i can think of is having some sort of senser both sides of the meter when it detects that they is no power feeding back it can then flick on the grid tie inverter to supply the power to the house in thoery this would work like a grid down that or a switch over unit to switch from grid power to off-grid power at night
That would be a possible solution to automise it further.
Your main RCD to protect you in case of mains leakage will not work when you powering from those SUn inverters. I'm pretty sure that setup is not legal - does the inverter comply with your grid code as it is connected to the grid?
The RCDs will work as they are in series with each other. In case of a fault, one of the will trip and disconnect the grid and inverters. This will be in line with the regulations.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia You keep avoiding the question, whether or not the units are approved units and that what you're doing is legal
@@markparker9749 They are CE approved and meet the requirements and regulations in terms of safety (eg. RCD trigger times...)
if the clamp detects used power then it wont supply anything back to the grid so no need for the sonoff units
they still might kick in during the day if his house solar is not enough to power the house / big or multiple loads which is not allowed.
I need the timer as I'm not allowed to use battery power during the day.
Andy, n.b. the SUN Grid Tie Inverter, like most grid tie inverters won't supply power to your house (or any load) if the grid is down.
Because has you said he need a grid "signal " to function...
That's not a requirement for my setup. I know it's a grid following inverter but that's fine for my application.
Hi Andy,
Cant you extract a signal from your House Inverter, that when it turns on, it activates a Contactor that cut your Battery house inverters off?
It seems a lot more reliable to me, than guessing a time, when you expect the house inverter to turn on. What about realy cloudy Days? Solar can certainly turn off during the day.
What if you get the time in the Sonoff wrong, and the Battery powers the house, and th house feeds the grid? Dont risk loosing your contract.
Your third solution appears to me to be extremely dangerous and I don't think any electrical inspection would pass it. Additionally if you loose power to your house you will have no backup. You have not discussed an OFF Grid solution yet.
Loosing the grid is a different issue and not a concern at the moment. I know, these inverters are grid following only. I would need to upgrade to a Multiplus then which can be grid following and also forming.