The Evolving Conversation, John Vervaeke & Peter Limberg
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- čas přidán 24. 08. 2020
- How do we have conversations that can go into new territory? John Vervaeke and Peter Limberg are enmarked on a project to revive the ancient practice of 'dialogos', a form of dialogue that created the first wave of Greek philosophy.
Peter Limberg will be leading a session for the Rebel Wisdom Community this Thursday, on the topic of Memetic Mediation, more details below, to take part, become a Rebel Wisdom Member.
John Vervaeke has become known to many through his series 'Awakening From the Meaning Crisis'. Since the release of this grand history of thought, he has turned his attention to the process of how we come to generate new ideas; dialogue and dialectic.
Peter Limberg runs The Stoa, and is the Rebel Wisdom Toronto Correspondent: www.thestoa.ca/
In this wide-ranging and fascinating discussion, they talk about where the cutting edge of the evolving conversation is at, and the necessity to cultivate new skills to move forward.
To get access to more exclusive content, and to join the growing Rebel Wisdom Community, become a member: www.rebelwisdom.co.uk/plans
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Peter's Session: The Psychodynamic is Political, The Art of Memetic Meditation with Peter Limberg - Thursday 27th 7PM EST/ 4PM PST/ 12AM UK/ 9AM Fri Eastern Australia
As a whole, we are not only becoming politically and philosophically divergent, we are becoming increasingly fragmented. Multiple worldviews of how the world "is" and "ought" to be are co-existing, and this co-existence is not a peaceful one.
The build-up towards the 2020 election in American is seeing to an intensification of our culture war, and because of this we are seeing memetic violence turn kinetic. How can we wise rebels address this? Memetic mediation, the ability to mediate amongst radically different worldviews by taking on a multitude of perspectives, might hold the key.
Before mediating between "memetic tribes" however, one will have to address their own internal conflict. The psychodynamic is political. If one cannot get into the right relationship with themselves, and the various subpersonalities they consist of, they won't be able to help others get into the right relationship with each other.
In this interactive session, Peter Limberg will introduce the concept of memetic mediation, followed by various practices that will help us sniff out our "philosophical allergies", in service to learning how to be responsive rather than reactive in the culture war. 90 mins.
John is really good at demonstrating the process of insight through his openness to having them. It opens up a mood of reverence and affinity that affords dia-logos
These are the kinds of conversations that should be on college campuses.
Right?
We might have to wait an entire generation before that happens. 😕
The people on campuses right now aren't smart enough
Thank You Peter and John .... I like the part about the aristocracy discussing ideas in a salon while the French Revolution was brewing. For me, a cautionary observation about the current state of social media.
I am stoked that Verveake in particular is commenting on and giving words to circling from the perspective of deep knowledge of embodied cognition. I especially like the comment on tai chi practice and the balance between sparring and reflecting, and the fear of only reflecting.
Aw, it is always such a joy to see Verveake, I notice succh a specific type of freedom and groundedness when hearing him. The words don't seem to be in the way, they move together with his being. It seems so clear how we can talk about things without making the speech into a hidden weapon.
It gave me goosebumps to hear wonder being celbrated!
Open my heart with wonder!
Amazing chat, thank you
It would be exciting to see John Vervaeke focus on the design of social media interfaces. The interfaces have been designed to favor marketing objectives, perhaps with no consideration at all about how they might support dialog, allow people to participate in the construction of collective wisdom better and with more ease.
I've been saying for like 3 years this! When I try to share with most regular folks they think I'm crazy.
I love RW, I love Mr V and I love Mr Lindberg but OMG please keep the original music. It works so well and it’s such an iconic audio signature.
Great distinction between Opponent Processing and Adversarial Processing.
In the UK school system, the emphasis in this area is Adversarial Processing. We train our brightest youngsters to excel in Adversarial Processing in the debating societies and then on to the debating competitions. There could not be a clearer indication that it is the love of victory. “The senior debating team won the national tournament at the weekend” is announced by the Headmaster with great pride in the assembly, we all clap, the team show the cup to the school. Truth is completely irrelevant to this model.
My focus is always on a search for truth through a collaborative exploration of ideas. A dialectic process - potentially with more than 2 people - refining each other’s thinking, moving the thinking of the pair or the group to where it could not have arrived without the others. However the ballet of good quality philosophical method loses with most of the boys I have taught to the bare fist boxing of debate
I'm on episode 43 of "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis" and he just talked about opponent processing a bit. Highly recommend the series.
James Stevens I think it is a profoundly important series which I keep working with. So much important material to help us understand contemporary Western culture
Great perspectives and vibe.
It took me about 3 explanations from you John of the connection between Dialogos and Opponent Processing before my eyes went wide, lighting shot through my head and I sat down saying "ohh."
I get it. (I think) Two Biased Agents making use of each other to find a new balance in a constantly changing environment. That's what we are meant to be doing in conversation...
Steiner kindergarten curriculum is based in awe and wonder.......this conversation suggests far more to it than allowing the child simply a rosy childhood, but firmly planting seeds for wisdom in the unfolding adult.......
Who would dislike such an engaging discussion??
It's good to see RW return to one of it's key topics. Perhaps we need more masks? The idea of making ourselves socially utilitarian sounds...practical. Approaching each individual as a basket of subjective ideas can't be efficient for a collective structure.
Yes yes it's not Curiosity he is right it is all about wonder
Just what I wanted to see
Loved the 34 minute mark, talking about the value being in the experience not in the academic - nice!
John is always good. Listen a lot to him, but he's always interesting.
A lot I agree with, but I shall highlight what is becoming an ever starker deficit for myself outside of his propositional knowing.
Circling (or a compensatory practice) is a practice I really should do, despite knowing I won't like it. My slight neurodiversity would get highlighted when the goal is syncing ourselves up to others, and it breaks very strongly how I like to see myself. (Always backgrounded and listening to understand, but not disruptive to its natural flow with my own limiting interpretations when I have to speak through one non-time-compensated view to say things.) It's where I haven't followed John's advice for progress in that area, including relevance in advancing dialogue or my social dynamism... but I might have to bite a bullet at some point, at least to find my limits around that area more clearly. (The future is telling me I will.)
The cognitive diversity on the ecology of practices comment was interesting, although I have a suspicion, that does not map to liking all the practices. Shadows are still shadows in what needs addressing.
Love from New Zealand
Don't know WTF they are drinking at Mcgill but that psychology department is chock full of wonderful academics.
I am interested in what is being talked about but the language used is I feel a barrier to get more people to be part of the discusions
Wow - I understood everything he said , because I am familiar with those experiences . . ✨😊💫
However ~ I never tried to describe the actual experience. Plus, who would take the time to listen to that ? No one I know .. ~
I think first step , is cultivating deep listening skills .. Listening to one person talk for more than one hour straight.
For me, I had a major break thru with my experiences of listening to Jordan Peterson’s lengthy lectures on mythology & the history of mankind. I was comfortable with his perambulation .. And in a very short time - I was able to listen to a three hour lecture without trying to get away, & I also developed the ability to talk for 3 hours without losing clarity or steam.
Finding people to have discourse with ? That’s a whole other topic.
So much wealth but none worthy enough to share it with?
If those of us that listen weren't spread out upon the world, what example would others have. That idea feels like a small blanket on a cold night sometimes, yet it helps me.
Building these mental sandcastles is a vain effort to fulfil hope. Instead, understand the hope.
Thanks for sharing this. Will look into the practices discussed. Really relevant comparison of Mills-Fromm-Buber and our predicament and the alternative of cultivating wonder. I m going to look at how I can work on what's discussed in this dialogue in my work and social life. My challenge is finding how to do this when work requires what I believe are too many actions in too short time frames. Must be work arounds.
"The difference between intelligence and rationality. The way you get rationality is having intelligence recursively applied to itself, to improve it's own application. And one of the hallmarks of rationality, is to care about the process, at times, more than the product. It's the opposite of bottom line thinking"...
Yes I fastened on this too👍
17:35 I know I’m really listening when someone triggers an insight for me
Opponent processing vs adversarial processing. I dig it. Been trying to figure this out with my partner. Guess I look further because I want deeper communication. Looks like I’ll need to check the i though ideas too...
Opponent processing, the key to a good marriage.
Dancing in a palace of jargon
dispute is personal of labels, argument is of the subject not the object, the object is of opinion.
I have a meeting about psychotechnologies tomorrow evening - what are we doing about the Meeting House coffee morning on Zoom? We need a sense of awe and wonder certainly if we are going to create that space for transformation.
This work has already been done;
Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye
shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh
findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Great discussion about human needs and how some can be met in such practices. I couldn't help but notice how John stumbles over using the word 'diversity' at the 35:00 mark. I wonder what makes that hard to put forward in this context/forum?
Because of Spock, from star trek, I have been saying to my self for a long time "but this is not logical". Lately, i have been using logic quite a bit to cut through what I call the wall (it is made out of delusion, and ignorance). And it is working quite well. I have also been finding some of the principals of physics, such as Newton's law of motion useful for explaining impact on collective unconscious, or culture or common sense. The law states: to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
I find it hard to listen to RW's thoughts regarding most topics, even when they lean toward my way of thinking.
Most of this has come about as a result of the one dimensional perspective it gives. There are far more opinions to be had in this world, than only those of academic white men.
I would love to be pointed toward any mediums that share the views of a variety of different races & are as equally diversified by thoughts of each gender.
Any info shared is much appreciated.
Cheers.
You might want to check out Martha Nussbaum.
@@dapsolita Thank you
Interesting that you think of his thinking as having a one dimensional perspective when he seems to me to be precisely inviting us all to multi-dimensional perspective and awareness.
I personally might wish more of the people who both think and speak like this were women, so I might feel as if I could aspire to think at this level, and even (gasp) join in.However, we should grasp for truth no matter the gender or race of the speaker
@@charlottecorcoran9492
I'm not saying the conversation is one dimensional, just the fact that I'm not hearing many women's opinions on a lot of different topics, or people of other races for that matter.
I'm of a belief that wisdom comes from many & varied sources & only hearing from academic white men becomes a bit tiresome.
Academic intelligence can hold itself in far too high a regard at times & I long for diversity in many things.
@@charlottecorcoran9492 One element of this conversation is precisely that you're being invited to join in. :-)
This is really cool. Thank you for putting it up so we can check it out! But I've been wondering, (not to make a pun lol) what happened to David Fuller? Surprised there has been no mention of why you switched hosts. Granted, I haven't watched ALL the videos you've put up recently.
David doesn't host every vid. Sometimes Ale does. This is normal.
Victory wins itself.
Metaphysical Hierarchy:
Mystic.. beautiful dreaming
Magical...harmony
Musical... language of music
Artistic... pictures/metaphors
Poetic... language of words
Numerical...we are here
Mystics create the most joy. (smart)
Accountants create the least joy (not smart).
Ever notice that beings who speak in the language of music can create joy that energizes thousands of beings to celebrate and dance?
Ever notice that those who speak in the language of numbers do the exact opposite?
Sanction, starve, torture, murder and bomb. Ignorance (hate) is bliss for vampires (greed). But not much fun for the poets, artists, musicians, mystics and human beings who they are sucking the joy out of.
The clever coyote (ignorance/greed) is always trying to catch the roadrunner (truth/love). But never does. Because something that is not real (absence of love) can never catch that which is real (love). That coyote (greed) is a crazy clown...
The biggest lie being perpetuated by the counting corpses is that "life is business" (greed). This is like saying that life is death.
The truth is that "life is art" (creating joy). Not sucking it out.
The wall of lies saying that "life is business" (greed) must crumble so that the truth that "life is art" (creating joy) floods the earth and washes away it's ignorance (hate).
Then life can become a celebration with joy spilling out of the smiles of everyone. Like Love (god) intended life to be in the first place.
We face some major obstacles though.
1) The filthy rich vampires (greed) experience perpetual pain and suffering because they never get enough. Their misery is so great that the counting corpses must sanction, starve, torture, murder and bomb the hell out of humans.
2) Light and truth (love) cause vampires great pain and suffering. That's why the words "care for all" and "green new deal" cause the counting corpses such misery.
3) Vampires are blind and cannot see the ignorance of transforming heaven (peace) into hell (war). The counting corpses are also blind and cannot see the ignorance of transforming this paradise planet lifeboat into a polluted pig pen.
4) The vampires (greed) and their ignorance (hate) seem to think that an anti-love, anti-christ called Counting Dracula (Trump) is Jesus (truth/love).
Darkness (business) exists so that stars have a place to shine. Stars don't exist to be sucked out of heaven (joy, beauty and harmony) by giant a**holes in space called ignorance (greed/hate).
I totally love & agree with what you're saying. It makes perfect sense to me & I'm committed to realising this future, as opposed to the one we are being offered now.
I must say, though, that offering it in such an esoteric way, does little to persuade other, than like-minded individuals, to see this different way of thinking, don't you agree?
Therefore it can alienate beneficial discourse & exaggerate the belief that understanding is only for the enlightened, not the average, everyday person.
As someone who wishes to make discussions like these the norm, not an exception, has me hoping that we're not seen as nonsensical believers of the impossible & more as optimistic sharers of realistic & acchievable concepts available to everyone.
Belief, as always, being essential to the success of any concept.
Hey Steve, I'd love to hear if you have any ideas regarding changing the narrative. Happy to hear any & all ideas/thoughts & happy to share my own.
Very open-minded, singer/songwriter, poet, entertainer, lover, inclusive, non-believer in money who would like to depose the fat cats & greedy megalomaniacs ruining our world.
Time for the real NEW NORMAL, time for change, time to stand up, regrow, rewind, reshape, reclaim & revive.
You'd love my ideas on education. Teaching by natural strength, so all us creatives, nurturers, doers, eco-smart, existentialist, socially adept, free thinkers actually get encouraged, not ignored.
How much intelligence are they missing out on & they think they're soooooo smart. Lol.
Gotta say though, we're letting them do it. Time to speak up & be heard.
@@Nobi72 Like clouds fill with moisture... dreams fill with "belief" to precipitate from the metaphysical plane called heaven to this physical plane called earth to form reality.
It is prophesized that the blind will see... then the meek (poets, artists, musicians, mystics, human beings and creators of joy) will inherit the earth and wash away it's ignorance (hate).
I am filling these beautiful prophesies with belief so that they can precipitate to this physical plane to form reality.
The aspect shift is to learn we are of 3, we should remain 3, not one. Three wise men.
You know, you keep inviting people to join the conversation. How exactly?
Right?
Dudes, Try this language game ( an "NPL code" that doesn't require intrusive mechanisms or using narcotics for changing 'states of consciousness' ) ...
Requirements:
(1) 3 People. ( You + 2 )
(2) Talk whatever you want to talk but You must follow these basic rules:
a) In your conversations,, never use the first singular person pronouns ( ban these words: "I", "Me", "Mine", "My" )
b) talk one at each time
c) If you want to talk about Yourself, then, refer to "your" body and its memories by using "your name" ... Example. If your name is John and You Want to talk, then, You talk about John, ( instead of saying "I was in Mexico" you said "John was in Mexico" ...
d) A, B, C ( The 3 players) must form an equilateral triangular position.
e) Once A, B & C begins to "freely" ( free topics but "code constrained" ) talk follow this behavioral pattern:
If "A" talk, then, "B & C" watch themselves and do not watch to "A" ...
If "B" talk", then, "A & C" watch themselves and do not watch to "B".
If "C" talk", then, "A & B" watch themselves and do not watch to "C"...
f) practice up to get fluidity, that you can talk fast and spontaneously but accomplishing "the rules" without thinking in the rules ...
g) Enjoy The Universe without "Me" on It ... 😉 ...
h) don't be scare, If "The Universe" begins to telepathically speak to A, B, and C while they play " The Language Game"... That's is just a Natural Environmental Phenomena...
........
The game had variations ... can be scalable, for example, A, B, C is team X ... D, E, F is team Y ... G, H, I is team Z ...
Then, each team exchanges a member with another Team ...
Then, when a modified Team begins to talk, The Other Modified Teams watch on silence Their conversations ... If someone of the talking Modified Team uses a First-Person Pronouns and/or watch the One who talks, then, that Team can not continue the conversation ( or lost points ) but only If "The Watchers" spot "the fault," ...
Stuff like that, there's a whole system of positioning, rewards, and punishment by "performing "Faults" and/or "spotting Faults"...
... but first, you must Master, step "f" ... before trying to play "The Collective Consciousness Game" ...
Good luck,
Enjoy The Language Game "Environmental Natural Drug" ...
... For Free ...
... to pay is not required ...
OMG i want that Weed! 🤩
@@samirould-ali7815 Perhaps, way better than weed 😂
truth lives in the child, not the parent. Hence the child of ancient cultures.
20:07 😆 Zing!
As much as I feel frustrated listening to JV, it's such a refreshing change to feel amused by a joke of his.
So find that ebb and flow and let the tides of the mind come and go.
31:40
Interesting.
circling looks like mumuration... when large groups of birds move elegantly in flight
Peter, i made story dice to help organise areas in the circling ... 6 dices each labelled as processes but only thrown in the order that "clarity" is required to make sense. Love your work guys 👍
Intellectuals are immune to repetition. Painfully.
I use the question to generate the meme. I ask a question, that lets you think of the answer.
I think you belong at St. John's College
There is only one way to inhabit the space of collective intelligence: eliminate inequality. In fact, this process would spontaneously emerge if you truly were inhabiting that space.
@Forever Jung This comment is read by your body, recorded in your mind, You are the witness that perceives this experience. Let equality reside there.
@Winston Smith Difference does not equate to inequality. You definitely need to re read Animal Farm, as well.
@Winston Smith It's not that complicated, really, Winston. No one life is more important that any other. In order to follow through on this though, it requires empathy and compassion. As as whole, society needs to focus more on helping those who lack these basic skills, rather than wasting time vilifying victims.
@Winston Smith Wow. That is quite the word salad. So many assumptions across such a broad range of subjects that you present as fact. Sociology, psychology, economics, to name a few. Just to give you an idea of how far off base you are; are you aware that many families consist of parents that despise and hobble their own children? You would if you had a masters degree in psychology and were dealing with patients on the daily.
My hope for you is that you can comb through the statements you so blithely made in your comment and research them to see if they are correct. I'm sure by then, you will understand that I am not virtue signaling nor am I wrong.
@Winston Smith In my opinion, equality means all human life has equal value
Awe doesn't have a lot of room for control. So certain kinds of intellectuals fear it.
What's a kyros?
I fight ancient nasty memes by replacing them with some nice new ones.
As much as I love this dialog. The end result after groups have made the Meta a meta focus is? Shows how privileged it is to see all this, but when real organizing is seen as necessary, these groups fails to overcome social frames taking the time and space of each of us is far to limited to actually get to real organizing for change of significance. That the splinter has happened in integral circles is good sign. But shows that 3 awakenings, with out the fourth in some form of maturity is a disaster. Which has me thinking , prepare for mad max communities, hope I end up in the growing food sector.Circling is the greatest good. How quickly will it see we physically got to create a community. Land and all. Start there as a problem to solve. You all will easily get the meta meta as you do it.
.....¿First!!! Baby!
LOL
3 is a triangle, 5 is a fist, beyond 5 is the new branch, the new branch is of two more but not 7. 3 is universal, one is a disaster and ends the discussion.
John mentions Socrates and how his method was about evolution of awareness rather than conclusion, then a minute later he is talking about how he "teaches". I see the next step here is to agree with the first point that it is not about teaching, and stop believing in it. Dialog, the wonder of it, is that it is not about teaching, but exploring together. There is no master and servant or guru and disciple, but both roles are taken as first one speaks and then the other.
There are things than can indeed be taught, but evolving awareness seem to not be one of them. Why? Because it is an internal change that deals with the very mechanisms that enable information processing. You cannot reprogram my computer and only I can do that. We can, however, collaborate in our own reprogramming so long as it is truly collaborative.
Intelligence is not consistent. Smart people do dumb shit too. If you'll excuse the blue collar vernacular. Same with people with lesser intelligence or education can have brilliant ideas. Just not that often (i have to say that or you'll get pissed off). So, it is not the person who is smart, but the idea. I think that we evaluate, and chose to believe the idea or not, and then pin the value of the idea on the person.
we are constructed of dna, why not select the same process influence of this spiral library of influences. The singular mind can not solve itself, the next mind will argue, the third subject or project/distraction, is the child of mental growth. This is because a human gives better than takes.
"What are we going to _do_ with this, I want to _do_ something with this." As a fan of Tai Chi, have you run across the notion of Wu Wei? My own experience is that the most important step I have taken towards awareness is to let go of control and challenge these very sorts of thoughts. To becomes a channel of wisdom is to allow it, not produce or control it. "Do not call me good, for only God is good." To refer to the Christian version of this perspective. The mind is a very poor instrument compared with intuition: this is what I have found working with these important issues. Intuition comes given the right, relaxed and clear, conditions: it is not "done".
"Building this beautiful collective machine" is only a breath away from tyrannical collectivism: right? Back to your excellent description of the nervous system and how it is tuning itself literally every second to the appropriateness of the moment for that one person. This means individuals being in the flow and there being no need for this machine, because that flow will always be the most loving, authentic, efficient, compassionate, respectful, alive, and appropriate possible. So you agree?
@DOC TOR My experience, which I am not asserting as the truth but just how my own intuition tells me, is that intuition in its clear state and uncluttered by the mind and misconceptions is the voice of God itself. While I agree that evolution was part of this, it would be putting the cart before the horse to claim that Darwinism created the intuitive functions. Instead, my deep feeling is that the intuitive force drove the coming into existence not only human evolution but all natural law.
The key question, I think, for those who may find the same within and concur, is what the role of the mind is in relation to the intuition. As I mentioned, I see mind as a poor substitute for intuition in all cases. Mind can pollute the intuition by trying to take its role on, but this is never good. The mind does have a role in analysis, but it should always be at the service of intuition (God) and never trying to be master over it (control and trying to replace intuition). To use John's example, this would be like trying to replace the spontaneous and refined balancing of the nervous system with a fixed program with fixed rules. The mind is about rules and plans and _life_ and _appropriateness_ can never be defined and controlled like this.
you guys just are just guessing....aha....because it's never been proven
are we educated well to see others mistake....not seeing are own act
If society is built of criticism then vulnerability is purely of bias to who is speaking. The hate process blocks learning, this block is from cynicism, searching for cracks, waiting for failure and denial of belief from using labels.
As an example, we are unlikely to listen closely again to the voice of a painfully slow narrator who is so disabled we can not give time.
Stephen Hawkins was presented, without his presentation, it would be unlikely to meet him on the street or the library, and be patient enough to listen. The laws of attraction.
Then apply this to a genius child who has no presentation and is likely grumpy and uncomfortable, so we write them off.
Category to wisdom is not assigned, every child is a genius.
Ya we want to join.... But I'm not buying your subscription fees..... Meta crisis, yes, why oh why have you guys put a value on philosophical conversation. Yes, socratic theories and memetic tribes of the past collaborated without putting a price on it... COMMMMONNN..... STOP NOW.. You lose all ability to mive forward and restructure if there is a price on communication . Stop charging to join these 'collective intelligence'.
James 1:1-8 1James, a servant of God and of the LORD Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings. 2Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That person should not expect to receive anything from the LORD. 8Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do. Amen.