Kyle isn't listening at all, or at least isn't understanding what Destiny is saying. But regardless good ideas from both people, despite misunderstandings
this is still one of my favorite SC2 related videos of all time because Destiny was completely correct, Terran was fundamentally better for almost all of WOL in ways that were fundamentally unfair, Marine/Marauders/Medivacs with stim (backed up soon after by siege tanks) was unbelievably strong, crazy mobility, can heal, high DPS, difficult to break siege. 2 rax terran had no business being as good as it was. Look at how good even just stim/concussive shell was compared to Zealot Charge for less minerals/gas total
8:00, terran has a ton of early game aggressive options or buildorders they can choose from. The most diversity in early game aggression comes from Terran. Two rax, hellions, banshees, the list goes on. The thing is, if Zerg doesnt scout the right build fast enough perfectly - then we don't prepare for it in time and we die. If Zerg does scout the right build order then we make lots of units to defend it, and we get behind because we made units instead of drones, but Terran is fine.
hmmm, something kyle said made me think of an interesting fix: What if terran had seperate supply counts, as in you can only have up to 75 mech supply and 75 bio supply ect. The numbers could be reworked but I think its an interesting idea
The reason zerg is behind once we make units that early to defend is because we cannot be aggressive with those units - addressing 8:40, "Zerg has no options". We have like one option - a baneling roach bust but thats it. Say lings for example - if terran forced lings, now we are behind because we cant do anything with those lings because terran just makes walls. And i'm not even talking about the possibilities of if Terran block scouts early on - then it becomes a guessing game for Zerg.
the reason terran harras is so good is because they build the slowest. they are the slowest moving race in the game so they need the harras to stay on par with the other races macro.
@Annulable You have the Spore Crawlers..... If you go Lair and delay Roach or Metabolic Boost you'll be able to have Lair complete as the cloaked banshees arrive. Also, maybe at 10 sec to the Banshee Build time
Zerg has zergling runbys and Terran has hellion runbys. Both cost only minerals, are fast and can win a game if the defender isn't prepared, but only hellions are over powered according to Destiny. Also this vid is over a year and a half old. The conversation they are having is different than the conversation we should be having now.
I kinda agree with Destiny's argument. No unit that does splash damage should be gas free. Even Banelings, cheap as they are, cost gas. Just add a 25 or 50 (subject to balance) amount of gas cost to the Hellion, and call it a day.
i love how his biggest contention back then was "if a protoss or zerg loses an army, they are screwed, but terran can make so many more sacrifices." ...my 15 Warpgates just looked at me and said "wut? need Zealot?"
Yeah and Terran have big fucking monstrous power houses too. Terran can also mass produce Marines and Vikings with Reactors, I was able to produce non-stop off of 2 bases with 5 Barracks, 4 Reactors and a Tech lab as well as 2 Starports with Tech labs, making, Viking, Medivacs, Marauders, and Marines. 8 Marines at a time, Mules fund the shit out of everything.
@MrKelerman you also have to put into the fact that when protoss loses an army all the units because of warpgates will be in that battle and either dead or low on health while all your units that you built will be either on the walk path over or rallied to your ramp and zerg one can be true that is the 300 food push but it's not always true if no one was maxed that larva that you say they have would have already been a unit trying to build already
i agree, most pros now don't use hellions to harass as much as to hold creep back, also, when hellions first come to attack zerg and terran loses them, it is a small mineral loss, but a lot of the terran fire power is lost, especially with zerg's ability to create units, and so if the zerg counter attacks, it can cause a lot of damage, esp since most pros now expand off the hellion push, meaning less terran units
@Natalthpie : Kyle's response to Destiny's points of balance, is that it can't be balanced. His response to the concerns about how cheap Hellions are, is that more marines would be worse for the game. He deflects the concerns by saying it can't be fixed, or by suggesting that erasing the early game will balance it. The early game is important, and fun, but Terran can flat-out win by going early Hellion, proxy 'Racks, or 2 cloaked Banshees for virtually no cost. The problem is race, not maps.
@ohAlanho I'm not saying that's not OP, neither is Kyle. It's just that balancing those things ain't as easy as Destiny explains it to be. Kyle doesn't say he disagrees with the "terran is OP" thing.
i cant believe kyle didnt say something along these lines. Zerg can make 3 units at the same time, Protoss can speed up their production of their units with chrono but Terran has to make 1 unit at normal time one at a time. OR!!! something like this Protoss chrono can be used to improved econ, tech, or army. Zerg have queens to make like 8 units at once making their macro insane so they can replace a lost army instantly BUT TERRAN's tech is normal time and cant speed up their army production
I feel like adding 25 gas to hellions would make for a better balance. Bringing in 4 hellions for early harass could set you behind in your tech, even if only for a minute. Dropping stim fro +50 to +40% dmg would also be slightly better without damaging the usefulness of the units. I also hate the ability to salvage bunkers but I don't know how to get around that one
I don't think adding 25 gas to the cost of hellions would be the end of them, they are still very fast and GREAT for harass/drops. I would also say Marines are just a tad too good because all the early game tech they get + stim makes them SO cost effective so I would suggest, instead of adding 30 seconds to stim research, Stim increases attack speed by 40%, down from 50% and Combat Shields require a factory. that's all i would do to *nerf* T
@Icanhaswinzplox But of course i'm talking about gateway units, the other ones u can easily chronoboost as I said. But terran can also mass marines and marauders (+ medivacs, and/or hellions) easily because of the reactors (and because marauders dont take so much time to train). However, they don't have chronoboost so the expensive units like siege tank or thor take pretty long to rebuild...
I don't know, Hellions are damn good control and they can cause serious economical damage, it's just that right now, they simply aren't hindering Terrans economy even if they get popped. Especially because Terran has Mules. I find it funny how Kyle doesn't want to admit that these are Macro mechanics simply because they are all very different, well Elephants, Whales and Humans are all very different too, but their still mammals.
@Conqrix The Reason why Terran is often seen as OP is becoz they are a very mineralheavy race and they have MULEs witch heps them mine the minerals much MUCH faster compared to gas w/o MULEs you get round about 5 times as many minerals compared to gas and w/ MULEs that changes it to round about 6-8 times (depending on MULE count) and i personally think that it's no excuse to say catch them unsieged i mean if i move comand my armee into the enemy i wont win...
The problem with balance, is that they adjust the units too much rather than changing qualities/spells. Like ghost: Instead of reducing radius on EMP, they should remove or remake the spell, it's a broken spells and too big advantage against protoss. As for snipe, it can counter every tier 2 and 3 unit. Hydras are light, mutas are light, Infestors can get sniped/EMP'd, ultralisks and broodlords can get sniped. And a ghost can counter a whole army alone IF successful with a nuke. And it has cloak
Prices are lower (in some instances, not all) but it still slows down how quickly zerg can accumulate workers. Nobody gets BCs because vikings and corruptors and voidrays exist and are much easier to get. They kill BL just as easily as BCs, (much easier in fact) its just that since T has good alternatives they get those instead. Z has ultralisks which are even more useless. Remember BL have the lowest damage, health and speed of any T3, by far, and can only shoot ground
they needs to make bunkers like they were in brood war, make it so you cant just switch reactors, delete the hellions the vulture is a better unit because of spider mines, make it so marine murader medivac tank isnt an auto win ( for lower players because they cant easyly defend it ) make mules last just a little longer, let the command center scan be a building on its own with its own energy.... theres so much they should do
ok so if maps were big it would take 3 hours for a protoss deathball to get to the enemy base and when its there the enemy would have already killed all of the protoss' probes with banshees or mutalisks.
On top of that hes not wrong that even today Terran can harass all day, and not cost them a thing. Hellbat drops were never a problem for me, i can hold them well, but a Banshee that comes out before i have lair, and i cant scout terran because 1 marine can stop an overlord from scouting, then how can i know a banshee is coming? So i have to place a spore, and its just out of panic, not to mention a bunker rush. Terran is overpowered, there is nothing against it.
There's several ways that you can punish terran/any race. Make the units cost more or put them up higher in the tech structure. WRT the terran helion drops, I would side that it is too fast to defend against.
destiny is right about terran being able to replenish armies so quickly, this is why all professional TvT games take FOREVER to finish.. on average like 25 minutes each game... because theres no way either player can do sufficient damage because supply gets replaced so fast, theres no opportunities to push unless a critical mistake occurs
There are always strategies to counter this or that, that's what makes the game fun. Having strengths and weaknesses and exploiting them is what it's all about. I really like Destiny's play and I agree that the game should keep changing, just so that new strategies keep getting pumped out and the game doesn't get boring, I would like it if the balance gets tipped a bit from one race to another, just so we are pushed to bring out new ideas.
@Soldier0Cross Wow, imma give you props, that was actually the first decent well mannered reply i ever received on youtube lol. Im not really in the debating mood, i dont honestly think Terran is super super op, but its to the point where they can easily win if the other player makes a wrong unit to counter them. Terran units are all around good against anything.
@mographzach I think he's talking about resource wise. A 1k resource army from Terran will DECIMATE a 1k resource army from either other race. Terran is too money-efficient, and on top of that, they have mules.
Mutalisks are tier 2, and are terrible against anything that shoots back. They are a 100/100 unit that deals 9 damage and has 120 hit points. Banelings are countered by marines with excellent mirco or by marine/marauder with merely above average micro assuming you have stim and conc shells. If Terran scoots and shoots a MM ball with stim its going to be cost effective aginst any zerg T1. Sometimes its horrifically cost effective.
@Conqrix Plus the fact that marines only get counterd by AoE damage (Roaches die vs marines if they have stim coz of the range difference) So by splitting you marines you are able to make sure that ur marines cant be countered and Marines are the strongest T1 Unit in the Game i would even say the statisticlly strongest Unit in the Game and it's mineral only Plus the other factors (Helions are T2 fast do bonus vs light and have AoE and kost NO gas)
Love how brilliantlly Blizzard fixed the helion harras. And with all blizzard games (WoW and sc2 in the example) the change will come, perhaps alittle later then people whould like, but the change is almost always very smooth.
Idk, I agree with Destiny that Hellions should cost gas, it's not only to add ba;ance, but it just MAKES sense, Hellions are like little racecars with flamethrowers, They should be gas intensive, if anything, I'd say 50 minerals 75 Gas to make one, or something like that.
@HOnigKings just wondering, have you ever played sc2? marines shoot only ground units? rofl, helions would be SUPER expensive. Tanks, they cant move, derp, spines and canons are more useful than bunkers cause bunkers that actually are useful cost pop wel u can have as many canons and spines up as u want and still have the same size army
The only thing I disagree with here is what destiny says on zerg losing their armies. The zerg playstyle runs on its ability to instantly remake armies given the mineral and hatchery count.
@TheBabyBalooga 400 minerals worth of units in speedlings are 16 speedlings who can do the same and even kill the buildings. They are even faster offcreep than hellions. How is that fair?
@Rainbowdash420 well then I guess we would have to take into account the spawning pool and drone and the barracks and supply depot in order to build these units i mention depot and rax because u require them to get factory. I guess it's fair if you add up all the tech costs and structure costs. Its just Helion is most cost effective for the amount of damage it can do whilst there are enemy defenses. Just my opinion though.
... You understand that hes not wrong. Terran has the most cost effective race, and its ridiculous, I play Zerg, and when play Bio-Mine, i cant win, there is just no way. Yes Zerg can make 30, yes 30 units at a time off 3 base if you are macroing properly, and terran can pump out more off of 10 barracks and 3 factories and a starport. At any time Protoss will only realistically have 10 warpgates. Thing is, even today terran is 4-0 other races in the finals of WCS, which is dumb.
@Cowboysrock95 it's pretty impossible to scout early game against a terran and get anything useful out of it. @ mographzach zerg is the reactive race they have to be able to spawn an army quickly, but zerg units cost money
Terran has an expansion that defends itself, it costs no PSY. Protoss cannons fire ground and air, they cost NO PSY. Zerg can build spines and spores, are mobile and COST NO PSY. What's your point Steven ?
If you kill 5 Terran workers, they just pull out some MULES. If you try to attack a Terran base, they just lift off. If Terran get a Planetary Fortress, it is a weapon in itself. Tell me the Zerg/Protoss equivalents.
And they do almost no dmg to queen and roaches. More importantly the point I was making is that both races have fast units that serve similar purposes, but Destiny and some other people feel that Hellions are the only ones that are OP. It seems hypocritical.
They should give hellions either more hp or added defense and increase their cost and include gas. That way more terrans will use them late game. They already have reapers for harass
Terran dont need planetary until third since they cant ever be attacked, also plantary+repair is by far the most powerful static def. Mules are by far the best macro mechanic, more income from 1 base than the P/Z get from 2, no punishment if you forget. Lift off is brilliant, it turns games around, means you always win base race and theres no way for Z to kill an early nat. Burning sucks but is more than made up for by repair. Z loses drones to make buildings and cant make drones and units
I feel like Destiny needs a Kyle to argue with and bounce ideas off of. Regardless of who is right, I love the two of these guys together. I get the impression they've been through a lot.
This is funny :) "terran does not get punished for losing an army" Zerg can insta remake a full army if their economy is good Protoss can warp in at 5 metres from the battle. Terran has to invest alot of money in production to be able to make a few units at the same time...
@MrKorrish No worries, I partially agree with you. I beat terrans regularly though, sometimes lose. I dont think theyre really OP. But they have certain things about their race that arent right. Hellions are far too cost effective and they probably should cost gas or something. And bunker harass is terrible with its ability to not cost the terran anything. Otherwise I dont have much problem with them as a race, but I sometimes feel like I lack options as a zerg player. Mutaling, Roach Hydra.
no they arent, SCII came out late 2010, this was 2 months after release (i actually remember quitting SCII around this time because of the retardation that was lost temple- tanks on that cliff)
so what i noticed first kyle say smth like changing units at that piont of the game is to soon/changing units wont balance the game later he says little maps should be removed if the units dont get changed... so what remove helions from small maps?
that's because us toss players are the most balanced race. we have some good air, we have gimmicky cheese just like terran and zerg, we have standard play that crushes cheese, we can kill all 3 races at a 50% win rate.
@Samurailord Its really not that far off. If one unit is doing a lot more damage than it should, it is OP. You make it sound like this game has never been patched
And roaches and queens take almost no dmg from hellions. More importantly the point I was making is that terran and zerg have a fast unit that serve similar purposes. Saying one is overpowered seems hypocritical.
@MrKorrish I do play zerg actually. I just dont really know what destiny means by saying that a terran can lose their army and not be at a disadvantage. If any race loses their army theyre at a loss. If anything zerg and toss have the ability to quickly rebuild their army better than terran IMO.
@MasivB also u dont have map control, losing the hellions and zerglings. reason terran is able to sacrifice units is because protoss and zerg can rebuild it so fast. for example keep injecting even though ur still maxed.terran is a micro race, if u dont micro u will get rolled over. especially marine split against baneling/fungal. kiting in tvp against protoss so zealots dont get a surround and trying to spread so u dodge storm.
@Kehoeman1 Yeah but they need to have a unit that comes out so early and can fuck up the other player..nor zerg or toss got such a thing Terran have the highest hp buildings and can expand safer than both other races yet blizzerd feels the need to give them something to prevent the other two races from expanding safely
"A better map pool would solve some of these problems!" Has Kyle even played Korhal Compound or Cloud Kingdom? Those two maps are completely impossible for Zerg.
@MrKorrish Theres others as well, but I dunno. I feel limited to specific builds, Id like new units. Infestors are great though and Brood Lords if we ever manage to tech to em. You play zerg I assume?
![IdrA being IdrA - A Compilation of Quotes [Re-upload]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/x9Vg0_Q2has/mqdefault.jpg)
![Starcraft 2 - Destiny trolling Minigun's stream [Game 2]](/img/n.gif)
"Then you're wrong! Because I'm right!"
GG.
Ketroc's style of play is so illustrative of Destiny's argument.
Take a drink every time Destiny picks out a detail to discuss and Kyle tells him he can't argue that.
It sounds like Kyle's theory is to just ignore it because it's too hard to balance. That's what I hear.
4 years ago and look, you can now inject hatcheries multiple times!
"Well you're wrong and I'm right!"
best argument ever
Kyle isn't listening at all, or at least isn't understanding what Destiny is saying.
But regardless good ideas from both people, despite misunderstandings
this is still one of my favorite SC2 related videos of all time because Destiny was completely correct, Terran was fundamentally better for almost all of WOL in ways that were fundamentally unfair, Marine/Marauders/Medivacs with stim (backed up soon after by siege tanks) was unbelievably strong, crazy mobility, can heal, high DPS, difficult to break siege. 2 rax terran had no business being as good as it was. Look at how good even just stim/concussive shell was compared to Zealot Charge for less minerals/gas total
They're both making a lot of sense... I definitely think the map size is a huge part of the game balance
YOUR WRONG BECAUSE IM RIGHT
-words of wisdom
from destiny
8:00, terran has a ton of early game aggressive options or buildorders they can choose from. The most diversity in early game aggression comes from Terran. Two rax, hellions, banshees, the list goes on. The thing is, if Zerg doesnt scout the right build fast enough perfectly - then we don't prepare for it in time and we die. If Zerg does scout the right build order then we make lots of units to defend it, and we get behind because we made units instead of drones, but Terran is fine.
hmmm, something kyle said made me think of an interesting fix: What if terran had seperate supply counts, as in you can only have up to 75 mech supply and 75 bio supply ect. The numbers could be reworked but I think its an interesting idea
The reason zerg is behind once we make units that early to defend is because we cannot be aggressive with those units - addressing 8:40, "Zerg has no options". We have like one option - a baneling roach bust but thats it. Say lings for example - if terran forced lings, now we are behind because we cant do anything with those lings because terran just makes walls. And i'm not even talking about the possibilities of if Terran block scouts early on - then it becomes a guessing game for Zerg.
@mographzach that argument only works if you're floating everything (mineral, gas, larva)
the reason terran harras is so good is because they build the slowest. they are the slowest moving race in the game so they need the harras to stay on par with the other races macro.
@Annulable You have the Spore Crawlers..... If you go Lair and delay Roach or Metabolic Boost you'll be able to have Lair complete as the cloaked banshees arrive. Also, maybe at 10 sec to the Banshee Build time
Zerg has zergling runbys and Terran has hellion runbys. Both cost only minerals, are fast and can win a game if the defender isn't prepared, but only hellions are over powered according to Destiny. Also this vid is over a year and a half old. The conversation they are having is different than the conversation we should be having now.
@Augenmann2 No, you pay 50 minerals, but you get 50 minerals MORE than now.
I kinda agree with Destiny's argument. No unit that does splash damage should be gas free.
Even Banelings, cheap as they are, cost gas. Just add a 25 or 50 (subject to balance) amount of gas cost to the Hellion, and call it a day.
i love how his biggest contention back then was "if a protoss or zerg loses an army, they are screwed, but terran can make so many more sacrifices."
...my 15 Warpgates just looked at me and said "wut? need Zealot?"
Remember when Hellion's Blueflame icon was actually a red flame icon, but it did +10 damage?
Good times.
Yeah and Terran have big fucking monstrous power houses too. Terran can also mass produce Marines and Vikings with Reactors, I was able to produce non-stop off of 2 bases with 5 Barracks, 4 Reactors and a Tech lab as well as 2 Starports with Tech labs, making, Viking, Medivacs, Marauders, and Marines. 8 Marines at a time, Mules fund the shit out of everything.
@MrKelerman you also have to put into the fact that when protoss loses an army all the units because of warpgates will be in that battle and either dead or low on health while all your units that you built will be either on the walk path over or rallied to your ramp and zerg one can be true that is the 300 food push but it's not always true if no one was maxed that larva that you say they have would have already been a unit trying to build already
i agree, most pros now don't use hellions to harass as much as to hold creep back, also, when hellions first come to attack zerg and terran loses them, it is a small mineral loss, but a lot of the terran fire power is lost, especially with zerg's ability to create units, and so if the zerg counter attacks, it can cause a lot of damage, esp since most pros now expand off the hellion push, meaning less terran units
@Natalthpie : Kyle's response to Destiny's points of balance, is that it can't be balanced. His response to the concerns about how cheap Hellions are, is that more marines would be worse for the game. He deflects the concerns by saying it can't be fixed, or by suggesting that erasing the early game will balance it.
The early game is important, and fun, but Terran can flat-out win by going early Hellion, proxy 'Racks, or 2 cloaked Banshees for virtually no cost. The problem is race, not maps.
Hellions make the sound of a car - the sound of fuel being burned.
***By diamond i meant my diamond level friend which i practice against off race/on race
@ohAlanho I'm not saying that's not OP, neither is Kyle.
It's just that balancing those things ain't as easy as Destiny explains it to be. Kyle doesn't say he disagrees with the "terran is OP" thing.
i cant believe kyle didnt say something along these lines.
Zerg can make 3 units at the same time,
Protoss can speed up their production of their units with chrono
but Terran has to make 1 unit at normal time one at a time.
OR!!!
something like this
Protoss chrono can be used to improved econ, tech, or army.
Zerg have queens to make like 8 units at once making their macro insane so they can replace a lost army instantly
BUT TERRAN's tech is normal time and cant speed up their army production
@MasivB the fact that you think 8 zerglings cost 400 minerals was the icing on the cake for your post :)
I feel like adding 25 gas to hellions would make for a better balance. Bringing in 4 hellions for early harass could set you behind in your tech, even if only for a minute. Dropping stim fro +50 to +40% dmg would also be slightly better without damaging the usefulness of the units. I also hate the ability to salvage bunkers but I don't know how to get around that one
I don't think adding 25 gas to the cost of hellions would be the end of them, they are still very fast and GREAT for harass/drops.
I would also say Marines are just a tad too good because all the early game tech they get + stim makes them SO cost effective so I would suggest, instead of adding 30 seconds to stim research, Stim increases attack speed by 40%, down from 50% and Combat Shields require a factory. that's all i would do to *nerf* T
@Icanhaswinzplox But of course i'm talking about gateway units, the other ones u can easily chronoboost as I said. But terran can also mass marines and marauders (+ medivacs, and/or hellions) easily because of the reactors (and because marauders dont take so much time to train). However, they don't have chronoboost so the expensive units like siege tank or thor take pretty long to rebuild...
@Grhymtv this was more than a year ago. Holy shit, the metagame has completely changed, look at the date people.
I don't know, Hellions are damn good control and they can cause serious economical damage, it's just that right now, they simply aren't hindering Terrans economy even if they get popped. Especially because Terran has Mules. I find it funny how Kyle doesn't want to admit that these are Macro mechanics simply because they are all very different, well Elephants, Whales and Humans are all very different too, but their still mammals.
@Conqrix The Reason why Terran is often seen as OP is becoz they are a very mineralheavy race and they have MULEs witch heps them mine the minerals much MUCH faster compared to gas w/o MULEs you get round about 5 times as many minerals compared to gas and w/ MULEs that changes it to round about 6-8 times (depending on MULE count)
and i personally think that it's no excuse to say catch them unsieged i mean if i move comand my armee into the enemy i wont win...
The problem with balance, is that they adjust the units too much rather than changing qualities/spells. Like ghost: Instead of reducing radius on EMP, they should remove or remake the spell, it's a broken spells and too big advantage against protoss. As for snipe, it can counter every tier 2 and 3 unit. Hydras are light, mutas are light, Infestors can get sniped/EMP'd, ultralisks and broodlords can get sniped. And a ghost can counter a whole army alone IF successful with a nuke. And it has cloak
Prices are lower (in some instances, not all) but it still slows down how quickly zerg can accumulate workers.
Nobody gets BCs because vikings and corruptors and voidrays exist and are much easier to get. They kill BL just as easily as BCs, (much easier in fact) its just that since T has good alternatives they get those instead. Z has ultralisks which are even more useless.
Remember BL have the lowest damage, health and speed of any T3, by far, and can only shoot ground
@drummerB44 to be fair a planetary fortress can defend unlike the others while your maxed and is stronger than a warp in of units or hatches larva
they needs to make bunkers like they were in brood war, make it so you cant just switch reactors, delete the hellions the vulture is a better unit because of spider mines, make it so marine murader medivac tank isnt an auto win ( for lower players because they cant easyly defend it ) make mules last just a little longer, let the command center scan be a building on its own with its own energy.... theres so much they should do
Hellions shoots fire, it should require gas, unless it burns minerals.
ok so if maps were big it would take 3 hours for a protoss deathball to get to the enemy base and when its there the enemy would have already killed all of the protoss' probes with banshees or mutalisks.
they did, this was made over a year ago. they nerfed hellions a little bit.
"Hellions cost gas, I don't think that is really fair," Firebats costed gas and look how SC turned out.....
On top of that hes not wrong that even today Terran can harass all day, and not cost them a thing. Hellbat drops were never a problem for me, i can hold them well, but a Banshee that comes out before i have lair, and i cant scout terran because 1 marine can stop an overlord from scouting, then how can i know a banshee is coming? So i have to place a spore, and its just out of panic, not to mention a bunker rush. Terran is overpowered, there is nothing against it.
There's several ways that you can punish terran/any race. Make the units cost more or put them up higher in the tech structure. WRT the terran helion drops, I would side that it is too fast to defend against.
and thats how terran get the advantage, like a protoss warping in, or a zerg insta remaxing.
@RicercarUPSB there are a number of strategies you can win with if you aren't good enough to win with banelings
destiny is right about terran being able to replenish armies so quickly, this is why all professional TvT games take FOREVER to finish.. on average like 25 minutes each game... because theres no way either player can do sufficient damage because supply gets replaced so fast, theres no opportunities to push unless a critical mistake occurs
There is no reason hellions shouldn't cost gas, they are the only tier 1.5 unit that doesn't cost gas.
There are always strategies to counter this or that, that's what makes the game fun. Having strengths and weaknesses and exploiting them is what it's all about.
I really like Destiny's play and I agree that the game should keep changing, just so that new strategies keep getting pumped out and the game doesn't get boring, I would like it if the balance gets tipped a bit from one race to another, just so we are pushed to bring out new ideas.
So what if Spore Crawler is unlocked with Spawning Pool and it gets its Detection when you get a Lair. Thoughts?
@Soldier0Cross Wow, imma give you props, that was actually the first decent well mannered reply i ever received on youtube lol. Im not really in the debating mood, i dont honestly think Terran is super super op, but its to the point where they can easily win if the other player makes a wrong unit to counter them. Terran units are all around good against anything.
@mographzach I think he's talking about resource wise. A 1k resource army from Terran will DECIMATE a 1k resource army from either other race. Terran is too money-efficient, and on top of that, they have mules.
Mutalisks are tier 2, and are terrible against anything that shoots back. They are a 100/100 unit that deals 9 damage and has 120 hit points.
Banelings are countered by marines with excellent mirco or by marine/marauder with merely above average micro assuming you have stim and conc shells. If Terran scoots and shoots a MM ball with stim its going to be cost effective aginst any zerg T1. Sometimes its horrifically cost effective.
@Conqrix Plus the fact that marines only get counterd by AoE damage (Roaches die vs marines if they have stim coz of the range difference)
So by splitting you marines you are able to make sure that ur marines cant be countered and Marines are the strongest T1 Unit in the Game i would even say the statisticlly strongest Unit in the Game and it's mineral only
Plus the other factors (Helions are T2 fast do bonus vs light and have AoE and kost NO gas)
Love how brilliantlly Blizzard fixed the helion harras. And with all blizzard games (WoW and sc2 in the example) the change will come, perhaps alittle later then people whould like, but the change is almost always very smooth.
Idk, I agree with Destiny that Hellions should cost gas, it's not only to add ba;ance, but it just MAKES sense, Hellions are like little racecars with flamethrowers, They should be gas intensive, if anything, I'd say 50 minerals 75 Gas to make one, or something like that.
i dont know why people complain about hellions not requiring gas when they have to get a refinery for the factory. :p
@HOnigKings just wondering, have you ever played sc2? marines shoot only ground units? rofl, helions would be SUPER expensive. Tanks, they cant move, derp, spines and canons are more useful than bunkers cause bunkers that actually are useful cost pop wel u can have as many canons and spines up as u want and still have the same size army
The only thing I disagree with here is what destiny says on zerg losing their armies. The zerg playstyle runs on its ability to instantly remake armies given the mineral and hatchery count.
this is exactly why I avoid voice chat with people I'm not familiar with
@TheBabyBalooga 400 minerals worth of units in speedlings are 16 speedlings who can do the same and even kill the buildings. They are even faster offcreep than hellions. How is that fair?
@Rainbowdash420 well then I guess we would have to take into account the spawning pool and drone and the barracks and supply depot in order to build these units i mention depot and rax because u require them to get factory. I guess it's fair if you add up all the tech costs and structure costs. Its just Helion is most cost effective for the amount of damage it can do whilst there are enemy defenses. Just my opinion though.
@PandaEatGRass
It's also a vehicle. It should also require gas for it to actually move...?
... You understand that hes not wrong. Terran has the most cost effective race, and its ridiculous, I play Zerg, and when play Bio-Mine, i cant win, there is just no way. Yes Zerg can make 30, yes 30 units at a time off 3 base if you are macroing properly, and terran can pump out more off of 10 barracks and 3 factories and a starport. At any time Protoss will only realistically have 10 warpgates. Thing is, even today terran is 4-0 other races in the finals of WCS, which is dumb.
nah i think they shoulde triple the mineral cost for hellions since they cost 50 it would equal 150
@Cowboysrock95 it's pretty impossible to scout early game against a terran and get anything useful out of it.
@ mographzach zerg is the reactive race they have to be able to spawn an army quickly, but zerg units cost money
Terran has an expansion that defends itself, it costs no PSY.
Protoss cannons fire ground and air, they cost NO PSY.
Zerg can build spines and spores, are mobile and COST NO PSY.
What's your point Steven ?
@mographzach look at the date on this video... this was before roaches had 4 range and it was hard to deal with alot of units
If you kill 5 Terran workers, they just pull out some MULES.
If you try to attack a Terran base, they just lift off.
If Terran get a Planetary Fortress, it is a weapon in itself.
Tell me the Zerg/Protoss equivalents.
And they do almost no dmg to queen and roaches. More importantly the point I was making is that both races have fast units that serve similar purposes, but Destiny and some other people feel that Hellions are the only ones that are OP. It seems hypocritical.
Lol, Destiny the prophet.
they should make mules cost minerals as well
They should give hellions either more hp or added defense and increase their cost and include gas.
That way more terrans will use them late game.
They already have reapers for harass
Terran dont need planetary until third since they cant ever be attacked, also plantary+repair is by far the most powerful static def.
Mules are by far the best macro mechanic, more income from 1 base than the P/Z get from 2, no punishment if you forget.
Lift off is brilliant, it turns games around, means you always win base race and theres no way for Z to kill an early nat. Burning sucks but is more than made up for by repair. Z loses drones to make buildings and cant make drones and units
I feel like Destiny needs a Kyle to argue with and bounce ideas off of. Regardless of who is right, I love the two of these guys together. I get the impression they've been through a lot.
I think Kyle was right , with the newer maps the terran show their weaknesses.
10:20 protoss may not have a self defending has but has warp in and zergling are the fastest unit in the game
This is funny :)
"terran does not get punished for losing an army"
Zerg can insta remake a full army if their economy is good
Protoss can warp in at 5 metres from the battle.
Terran has to invest alot of money in production to be able to make a few units at the same time...
Answer to every balance issue in the game regarding terran is MAKE IT LIKE BROOD WAR!!!
@MrKorrish No worries, I partially agree with you. I beat terrans regularly though, sometimes lose. I dont think theyre really OP. But they have certain things about their race that arent right. Hellions are far too cost effective and they probably should cost gas or something. And bunker harass is terrible with its ability to not cost the terran anything. Otherwise I dont have much problem with them as a race, but I sometimes feel like I lack options as a zerg player. Mutaling, Roach Hydra.
no they arent, SCII came out late 2010, this was 2 months after release
(i actually remember quitting SCII around this time because of the retardation that was lost temple- tanks on that cliff)
so what i noticed first kyle say smth like
changing units at that piont of the game is to soon/changing units wont balance the game
later he says little maps should be removed if the units dont get changed...
so what remove helions from small maps?
that's because us toss players are the most balanced race. we have some good air, we have gimmicky cheese just like terran and zerg, we have standard play that crushes cheese, we can kill all 3 races at a 50% win rate.
@Kehoeman1
meant they dont need to have a unit*******
Any kind of cheese can take you to gold or higher even while offracing.
@10:58 but then you're wrong, 'cause i'm right
^best argument ever
ROFL
@Samurailord Its really not that far off. If one unit is doing a lot more damage than it should, it is OP. You make it sound like this game has never been patched
has any of this been changed for the better
And roaches and queens take almost no dmg from hellions. More importantly the point I was making is that terran and zerg have a fast unit that serve similar purposes. Saying one is overpowered seems hypocritical.
@MrKorrish I do play zerg actually. I just dont really know what destiny means by saying that a terran can lose their army and not be at a disadvantage. If any race loses their army theyre at a loss. If anything zerg and toss have the ability to quickly rebuild their army better than terran IMO.
@MasivB also u dont have map control, losing the hellions and zerglings. reason terran is able to sacrifice units is because protoss and zerg can rebuild it so fast. for example keep injecting even though ur still maxed.terran is a micro race, if u dont micro u will get rolled over. especially marine split against baneling/fungal. kiting in tvp against protoss so zealots dont get a surround and trying to spread so u dodge storm.
in other words,
Protoss = quality
Zerg = quantity
Terran = economy
You think roaches, lings, and banelings can beat marine/marauder with stim?
@Kehoeman1
Yeah but they need to have a unit that comes out so early and can fuck up the other player..nor zerg or toss got such a thing
Terran have the highest hp buildings and can expand safer than both other races yet blizzerd feels the need to give them something to prevent the other two races from expanding safely
4 hellions in your base = lose?
2 banelings in your base=lose
"A better map pool would solve some of these problems!"
Has Kyle even played Korhal Compound or Cloud Kingdom? Those two maps are completely impossible for Zerg.
@MrKorrish Theres others as well, but I dunno. I feel limited to specific builds, Id like new units. Infestors are great though and Brood Lords if we ever manage to tech to em. You play zerg I assume?
Ironic how Kyle argues like Cartman from Southpark.