Hybrid? BEV? Hydrogen? Which Way Would You Go? - AAH 699
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- TOPICS:
- Latest hybrid technology
- PHEVs or EREVs?
- Making a case for hydrogen fuel cells
- How much more can we get out of the IC engine?
PANEL:
Mohammad Fatouraie, Director of Engineering for Power Solutions, Bosch
Jason Fogelson, Cox Automotive
Gary Vasilash, shinymetalboxes.net
John McElroy, Autoline.tv
INSTAGRAM: / autolinenetwork
TWITTER: / autoline
FACEBOOK: / autolinenetwork
WEBSITE: www.autoline.tv - Auta a dopravní prostředky
It’s very frustrating that no one will have an open honest conversation about how OEMs are fully incentivized to slow EV adoption as much as possible. It is a huge threat to their very existence and no show will really drill down on that.
EVs will never work. They're only building them because of government gifts and the hit they were taking from carbon taxes. Scooters could be electric. Automobiles not so much.
THANK YOU! Clearly they don't care when they take advertising support from the industry... They'll just support whatever they want...
Agree. It's clear they can't make EV, can't get batteries, and fail due to their own ecosystems but also their suppliers, dealerships and UAW. The fact is, there is zero path forward for most. They lie about it, but the pivot to hybrids is laughably obvious that they are failing and hope only to squeeze out what they can on the way down. Biden admin goes along for votes. But Trump is a puppet for foreigners and oil corps. Ugly state of affairs.
Not really, their margins are paper thin with ICE and they would love to cut manufacturing costs and enjoy Tesla level profits with BEVs. Their problem is they don't have the batteries to replace every ICE sale with a BEV sale. So companies like Toyota are going the HEV route for now since they can sell 40 HEVs for one BEV, even then they barely have enough spare batteries to make even a few PHEVs. The battery industry needs to grow massively, and it is, but not fast enough for someone like GM or Toyota. Yes they are throwing out a lot of FUD to sell these compromise vehicles but the materials for the industry and consumer confidence to "flip a switch" just isn't there.
@@anydaynow01then why are these analysis not saying that? Why are they beating around the bush?
Nearly half of BEV owners would consider going back to ICE, but almost 0% of Tesla owners would go back … what does that tell us?
I am not going back. 15,000 miles in and a year of owning and driving a Model 3 RWD and it has been great.
Tesla software is best in automotive industry. Love all the over the air updates. Never owned a vehicle that had new features added after purchase for free and without a trip to the dealership.
It tells you the data is absolutely bull crap narrative attempt
Which half? Must be my bottom half because my waist down has made some massive mistakes in my life and my top half isn't that stupid.
Clear indication that non-Tesla BEV's suck in comparison.
You are not talking about the same survey. The wording and people are completely different and not comparable.
SHELL closing all its hydrogen stations in California tells a lot about the technology !
Why is hydrogen so talked about in government and industry? Because the oil industry makes it from natural gas. That's it. And there can be handwaving about green hydrogen coming, and look we're working hard for the environment, but it's largely about stalling, and sucking up funding money for 'green' innovation. Hydrogen can be part of the solution, but that's largely not why the industry is interested. E-Fuel and biodiesel feel very similar, fuels that can claim to be renewable, but ignore the energy/material inputs to create the fuels. "We used solar to produce this E fuel!" Never mind that solar could've gone straight into a BEV. Like hydrogen, E-Fuel and biodiesel might have a place, but it's probably not in passenger cars. PHEVs can be great, but to be their best they need to be in small efficient cars, and everyone in North America seems to want to drive a large SUV or pickup truck.
Hydrogen is not just about cars. It's about the entire industry reducing reliance on coal, oil, or natural gas. From hydrogen steel production to hydrogen-powered trucks, the application is enormous. And no, the aim is not to manufacture hydrogen with natural gas. The aim is the exact opposite.
Everywhere you look, everything we do to save the environment is the worst thing we could possibly do.
We're getting close to hitting the wall with oil yet the average passenger vehicle is bigger then ever. Then we subsidize auto companies to make EVs and they build gigantic monstrosities.
With agriculture we should build giant herds of ruminants to graze marginal land which would recover the land. But instead we industrialize everything so corporations can maximize their revenue and control. But industrial agriculture maximizes the inputs and costs to the environment.
This will end with massive wars and the death of most of humanity. And all the while people will invent idiotic excuses and pretend it's scientific fact. Inventing excuses is the only thing we're good at.
@@yo2trader539 it has been always " The fuel of the future" , chances are mankind will be in the Moon and Mars before Hydrogen is available like Gasoline in your Gas Store, meanwhile most people with a BEV can plug @ home.
If the government was serious, it would stop GIVING money away to the oil companies...
yep, they do!
re: "sucking up funding money for 'green' innovation. Hydrogen can be part of the solution..." no argument there, for i believe that's EXACTLY what i saw out in Vegas at ACT Expo. looked like an H2 race for ever more "Gub'mint Subsidies". #FEEDINGATTHEPUBLICTROUGH
scared of ev fires? - go with hydrogen! what could go wrong?
Combustion regardless of fuel is the problem...
it's the car of the future... and it always will be.🤣
Now, storing/stockpiling energy for later use... you might be on to something.
A hydrogen fire can be put out with traditional methods and doesn't pour out hyper toxic acid-smoke. Electrochemical fires are kind of uniquely problematic.
@@ethanwelner1230 not sure where you sticking that head of yours, in Fossil fires are too common , a recent tanker fire in I-95 closed that highway for a week, meanwhile advancement in Batteries are weekly improving ,BYD blade battery is literally bulletproof .Oh a Hydrogen station blew up a couple of years ago, closed area for blocks.would you like one in your backyard,🤔
I am a fan of your channel. I am sick of hearing from a Expert who has a vested interest in selling all their products. Especially their ICE portfolio. Hydrogen is not the PERFECT FUEL. it is not even a fuel, it is an energy vector. Hydrogen will never be in transportation ever. Consumers, blah, blah blah. They are afraid to change, especially after all the marketing by Oil. But we must stop polluting and emitting CO2. BEV's are the way. Stop with hybrids and hydrogen talk. I recommend the show engage an expert from the Hydrogen Science Coalition who have experts with no vested interests.
BINGO! Thank you! Glad to see the push back from viewers about these bullshit corporate whores they host who just preach nonsense...
Did you seriously say hydrogen isn't a fuel it's an energy vector?
@@ethanwelner1230 Yes I did. For it to be a fuel it would occur naturally. Why do I say an energy vector? Because you start with one form of energy and convert it to hydrogen.
Hydrogen sounds very inefficient.
It is... And it will never be better than electricity...
HYDROGEN it is a Rube Goldberg way of getting around , plus a Chicken and Egg thing in infrastructure and the delivery and who will provide it.
Yep H2 for commuting appliances is a pipe dream until they find an economic way to make it without tapping into our already rapidly dwindling fresh water reserves. Maybe if someone can come up with a way to capture absolutely massive amounts of water during rainy seasons, but then they might as well use it for seasonal hydro electric storage and water crops. Whatever the "green" source, whether it's RNG/bio fuel or fresh water those resources are much more efficiently used elsewhere.
The only real use case is where solar plants shut down panels or wind turbines are idled for excess power when short term batteries are topped off, instead, use it to make H2 for long term energy storage for lean times and eventually sell to chemical industries. Though to pull this off would require a near totalitarian oligarchy or extremely well managed forward seeking private business who can integrate everything as efficiently as possible.
@@user-cw9em3mo3w Yep, Toyota needed a page from Tesla's play book of if you build it (refueling infrastructure) they will buy your product. Unfortunately for H2 that infrastructure is way more expensive that putting a transformer, charge cable, a few relays, and have the ability to vertically integrate the control system like Tesla did. In short H2 for daily drivers was always destined to die on the vine once the cost of batteries started falling, especially with LFP batteries becoming more popular.
@@anydaynow01 re: "Yep, Toyota needed a page from Tesla's play book of if you build it (refueling infrastructure) they will buy your product." well Toyota has in fact done just that (for starters) with their $40 Million Dollar Tri-Gen/H2 Plant now in operation at the Port of Long Beach. not sure what this stuff should cost but a $40 Million "build out" in post 2020 exchange rates seems pretty cheap in the grand scheme (which is peanuts for the Toyota Mega Corp) i mean i honestly thought the price would be more like $400 Million...? but not so much.
Bevs and Bev infra are continuously improving, and the Deloitte info can’t really incorporate that. What people think now is not what they’ll likely be thinking in 2,5,7+ years when they go to buy a new car.
It is amazing how often this is overlooked!
Where's the electricity coming from? Where are the mineral resources and hydrocarbons required to fuel those industries coming from? We're likely consuming more than ever of everything now. This is going to crash quickly. These wars spreading everywhere aren't bankers wars. They're resource wars. They've always been resource wars. The lie was that it was about money or wealth and the bankers called the shots. It's about survival and that comes down to hydrocarbon and mineral resources.
@@bunsw2070 But that is changing, Solar power is the fastest growing segment for energy. About 6% of the electricity in the US and likely near 15% by the end of the decade.
The refueling at home is one of the biggest benefits.
See the post about how unreliable the survey is
IC motors running on a non-carbon fuel will use air, which is 80% Nitrogen + 20% O2 to oxidize the fuel (H2 or Carbon-based). Nitrogen (N2) will still be oxidized to produce some level of N0x (NO, N02, nitric acid). So combustion still has other pollution creation risks even with H2 as fuel.
Using hydrogen as an energy storage medium consumes 15 parts of energy for each 1 part of energy you get back. It's even worse then EVs though EVs are much more complicated to debunk.
Not exactly, first I'm not defending H2 combustion engines for passenger daily commuting appliances, that makes zero sense big picture. But with an H2 combustion engine there is a lot less possibility for knock so you can run it almost exactly at an air/fuel stoichiometric level where the catalytic converter can eliminate NOx, not to mention much faster heat up times because startup enrichment is eliminated (H2 is already a gas for an efficient burn), so the catalytic converter comes up to temperature much faster. But what about precious metals in catalytic converters? I think a fuel cell or massive BEV battery pack has a bigger impact there.
H2 ICE engines make the most sense for sports cars and large transport / industrial backup power applications, for daily drivers EREVs and BEVs make the most sense there depending on the car maker's battery supply and comfort with making Atkinson cycle engines.
Eventually it will be all BEVs with a few more advancements in battery tech, and a lot more mining/recycling operations, but not today.
@@anydaynow01 Eventually it needs to be trains. No amount of battery tech fixes the environmental disaster that is a national road network using extremely carbon heavy tarmac and concrete. That's ignoring the environmentally devastating and carbon intensive urban sprawl that personal passenger vehicles incentivizes. BEVs are a sideshow and will have very little actual long term impact on global carbon levels. If Hydrogen tech gets us to a place with reliable hydrogen electrolysis based grid energy storage than hydrogen cars are purely better than BEV cars for the environment.
As always, informative of where the mainstream auto industry groupthink is. Valuable for understanding how much it is dawdling and pushing peas around on the plate like a child trying to make it look like its eaten some
BINGO BANGO! Hot cheese on toast! It's an exercise in eye-rolling ignorance... Talk about modular hydrogen plants when you can just plug in your car anywhere... Shit like that is laughable at best!
GREAT COMMENT
Exactly, there was almost no discussion of the cost for these technologies. I thought the bosch engineer was going to get there for hydrogen, but then he sidestepped the elephant in the room. Gary‘s question about why isn’t hydrogen being used more in companies making serious investments. It’s because if you wanna make hydrogen clean, you need three times the electricity to go the same amount of distance as an electric vehicle. Who can afford to pay three times for the same distance? Sure there might be some obscure case somewhere. But almost all applications the more fuel you burn the quicker the payback to go battery electric.
I was also disappointed that they didn’t discuss battery swaps as a potential solution. When I think of heavy heavy equipment and commercial equipment, battery swaps really makes sense. Bloomberg reported last month that 50% of all new commercial trucks use swappable batteries in China!
"Don't rock the boat, the nail that sticks up gets hammered, we've always done it that way. "
@@kyleklemanor even truck swaps. Swap out the cab, keep the trailer. But yea, in industrial settings with large fleets, battery swaps become more reasonable
These guys are talking about improving ICE… The equivalent of developing a faster horse in 1910. WOW.
"It's all about money." Bingo. They're talking about YOUR money, flowing to dealers and fossil fuel producers who will make Advanced E-Fuel someday, but in the meantime they're turning fossil feedstocks into synthfuel that's almost as clean as fresh snow. Almost.
"40 percent are gojng back to ICE" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
interesting comment jeff. i think evs are pretty nice to drive. have had a couple now and would probably be in the 60% group. happy motoring.
I know right? What are they smoking???
@@stickynorth Q: What are they smoking??? A: dunno, maybe their 345 section rear tires...? "ICE ICE BABY...!!!" (insert smoky burnout video of a sweet Mustang GTD Carbon Series at LeMans)
To say ‘don’t buy an EV, keep your car’ to be environmentally friendly is too simplistic. That may or may not be the answer. Engineering Explained channel has a good vid to help figure it out.
Exactly. If you have the money for an EV, buy the EV. It’s not like your old ICE will be junked. There will be a happy customer for it.
EVs are worse for the environment. The studies were done almost 20 years ago. This isn't about saving mother nature. It's designed to fail and leave us no option. It's not an accident that they're spending our tax dollars subsidizing the building of the vehicles while at the same time not increasing electrical generation and transmission and charging stations. They're stupid but not that stupid. Some people have studied thermodynamics. This stuff is understood and there are no shortcuts. Taking advice from politicians and corporations is obviously a mistake.
The argument is always your current car has always been built. My counter argument is so has all the EVs you see around you! Buy a used EV, they emit nothing and like the dinosaurs would say: no production emissions.
Usually keeping something old instead of buying something new is more environmentally friendly. This thought is somewhat ingrained as it makes intuitive sense.
But there are notable exceptions, who always boil down to the massive inefficiencies of running the old stuff.
Light bulbs vs LEDs (factor 10 difference) or ICE vs EV (factor 5 difference) are examples of that.
Sadly most people only go back to what they believe, ie running old stuff longer = always better.
The forever emissions of the used ICE vehicles are not better for the environment than a new BEV.
I was reading the chat comments. The presenter is right. Chatters do not understand anything of what the 4 are talking about.
Autoline has kind of a uniquely dumb comment and chat section. I'm not sure why. It's been colonized by old men who are petrol heads forever and cringy musk cultists. There's almost no inbetween.
Yeah this channel has a uniquely bad comment and chat community.
A lot of what Mr. Fatouraie said saw spot on! It would be great to have him back on the show.
What part of what he said did you belieb the most ?
Hydrogen is a poor substitute for gasoline or diesel fuel. Using hydrogen to power a fuel cell makes a lot more sense. This is explained very well on the CZcams channel, Engineering Explained.
Every time lobbiests convince a government into subidising hydrogen cars the fuel stations pop up. When the subsidies go away the stations close because hydrogen cars are not competitive.
Shell sure did a good job in California.😂
Hydrogen is used as a distraction tactic
This reminds me of the discussions/arguments from decades ago when personal computer makers were trying to to decide whether they should use the IBM DOS system or the Microsoft Windows and Apple operating systems.
That's not how that happened. Microsoft licensed DOS from IBM. This comments section is so weird sometimes.
Still believe this survey being brought up this week is very flawed.
I agree consumers will make the difference, but need people t9 quit saying a one quarter, one market, one month, or whatever small look to pull data from speaks of the true direction the market is going.
When Model S came to market, Tesla started building out the charging network. What they have done has made a big difference and the next five years will likely see the charging network concerns shrink dramatically.
I’m all for consumers choosing the right powertrain for themselves. But we need to include the cost of mitigating emissions, for each fuel in the cost of the fuel.
Then EVs would have even more costs added on compared to ICE.
@@bunsw2070 Love your answer based on non fact.
@@bunsw2070 Explain.
@@nexxusk Bingo!. That troll is full of shit! EV's even powered by coal are always cleaner than ICE engines from both an emissions and fuel efficiency standard...
Consumers can't and shouldn't be able to choose powertrains. Thats a national infrastructure issue and letting consumers decide individually allows them to pick the thing that is cheapest and easiest for them while ignoring what is the most expensive and harmful to everyone else. US car culture is an almost perfect expression of the tragedy of the commons.
This was a most informative episode. The guest speaker Mohammad Fatouraie is quite brilliant and really knows his stuff. He’s a great asset to Bosch. I see hydrogen differently now after hearing his answers to all the panel members’ questions. Malaysia seems to be leaning towards hydrogen powered public transport buses from China and I now can see how this is a sustainable solution and not a less than ideal solution.
28:47 everyone is quoting that study but no one is actually linking to it. where can I read the whole thing?
See the post about it - McKinsey & Company (informally McKinsey or McK) is an American multinational strategy and management consulting firm that offers professional services to corporationsThe firm has been associated with a number of notable scandals, including the collapse of Enron in 2001,[93] the 2007-2008 financial crisis,[93] and facilitating state capture in South Africa.[150] It has also drawn controversy for involvement with Purdue Pharma,[151] U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement,[98] and authoritarian regimes.[97][96] Michael Forsythe and Walt Bogdanich, reporters for The New York Times, wrote a book entitled When McKinsey Comes to Town about the controversially unethical work history of the company.[
For those too young to remember, federal support of hydrogen and battery technology started in the Carter administration but was scrapped by the Reagan administration.
Why does all these hyrdogen proponents never talk about the fueling costs? In Califorina, where we have expensive gasoline, Hyrdogen fueling costs 2-3 times as much as gas, and 6-10 times as much as electricity per mile traveled. Asside from all the other problems with H2, fueling costs alone make it silly to consider. The only way Toyota could convince a few suckers to buy H2 cars was to provide free fuel fo the first 3 years. After 3 years owners got screwed and the resale value of these vehicles is close to zero.
Because fuel costs are based entirely on economies of scale and hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. In a system with actual hydrogen infrastructure pump prices would probably be predicated on the same things they are now. Tax regimes and incentive structures. Rather than the actual cost of the material. The price at the pump has more to do with your government than it does the technology of gasoline. Thats why it varies so much from one place to the next.
@@ethanwelner1230 - If we could mine the sun, great, but as for Hyrdogen on earth, the cheapest means is extracting it from gas, and that is both costly and environmentally awful. Then there is "green" Hyrdogen, made from water using electricity. This is very inefficient, and costs quite a bit more than that extracted from gas. Volume production doesn't reduce the price much in either method. Storage is a big headache as Hydrogen, being the smallest molecule, is great at leaking out of containers. Then you need to expend energy to cool and/or compress the Hydrogen. So many issues that make it a nightmare to actually deal with that drives costs way up and energy effectiveness way down.
I would call hydrogen a joke, but it's not funny. Inefficient, expensive. Every building is wired with electricity
This was a great discussion and Muhammed really knows his stuff. Not sure why the other guy was there. It's a shame this comments section has at best a fourth graders understanding of mechanics and economics.
Moo-hamed was a total JOKE. HE DID NOTTELL YOU A GOD DAMNED THING. DISHONEST TO THE HILT TOO. Watch out for clowns who, when you ask them a question, begin their non-answer by sucking up to you and telling you how GREAT the QUESTION was. But they never give even a Decent, let alone an also GREAT Answer.
The problem with hydrogen, as I understand it, is that only about 60% of the energy going into it comes out of that. And if you burn it in an internal combustion engine, you only get about 42% of that. So, if you multiply these two together, you end up with only about 25% efficiency.
I suppose that in a very limited number of applications, this inefficiency may well be tolerable. But the heavy, expensive, lithium battery seems like the better deal.
That depends on how you make it. If it's solar panel and water based electrolysis then the efficiency literally doesn't matter. It could be 5% and it would still be pretty good for the environment insofar as any car ever is.
I am waiting for someone to make a dual Weber DCOE carb conversion lit for my Tesla Model S Plaid.
Good show
Great job Mohammad! Really good in-depth discussion.
Do you owe the clown money? You are being RIDICULOUS. HE WAS AWFUL. We did NOT learn a GOD DAMNED THING from his evasive, dishonest non-answers.
If a company does not see that using the same part on multiple vehicles is beneficial, their company should go out of business.
All builders should be figuring out how to make their parts list smaller for the same number of models they build or how to make other models without making a ton of new parts.
To use a cheap example, Taco Bell and In-N-Out burgers have few general ingredients, they just package them differently. Animal style fries required In-N-Out to add nothing new to the ingredients list, they just reworked it. Taco Bell dies that all the time.
Where that fails is when you have too many of the same product, just different names. GM has a long list of rebadged vehicles that failed partly because there were others in market, from their company, that soaked up the buyers.
When you look at everybody's favorite punching bag, Tesla, you can find Model 3 parts in just about everything they make, including the Semi. They fully commit to trying to hit scale savings.
They start from scratch🎉
Good discussion
It looks like a FUD generating circle, I think John goes along with it sometimes just to be nice.
محمدجان باعث افتخار فراوان👌👌👌🌹
Interested to hear that currently EREV components as a system are more expensive than PHEVs. But is that for comparable battery pack size?
And, what about their impact on scale? It it truly is configured just like a BEV (except for the genset) doesn't every EREV sold add to count of "EVs" sold and therefore increase the EV manufacturing scale?
As one who works in renewable and EV technology, I am mystified as to why Hydrogen still seems to have so much traction. Two BIG issues were not mentioned. One is the lousy range of Hydrogen used in combustion (this YT link czcams.com/video/vJjKwSF9gT8/video.html explains it well). The other is efficiency. It was briefly queried but not discussed in detail. Today, if you generate 1KWh of energy, a BEV will be 80% efficient in converting to motion. A Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is probably 40% efficient. At least for passenger vehicles, Hybrid and BEV will be the future. Give it another 10-15 years when battery energy density will at least double and it will swing more towards BEV.
I don't think it will be ten years.
@@jamesvandamme7786 Average battery density has been going up at approx 7% per year. Assuming this is sustained, that is 10 years. There are lots of promising tech out there but making this available at volume production has been a challenge. From Tesla side, Musk has made lots of promises (500mile Cybertruck) but they nearly get there by simply adding more batteries and weight. Reality and hype don't match most of the time.
Is Hydrogen (electrolysis) more efficient/economical than a battery or any other devices in storing energy?
Sometimes. Hydrogen is a radically more energy dense material for storing energy and it doesnt experience parasitic losses like batteries. For the most part its also safer and simpler. If the infrastructure was built up to support it then it would be drastically better than battery storage for base load. TBH most things are drastically better than batteries for grid storage. Batteries are just available and proven so they get used sometimes when other techs often require a much larger up front investment or specific local factors. Most realistic hydrogen grid storage features batteries to smooth out the load and hydrogen to provide a baseline of power.
The thing that would make hydrogen better than compressed air or molten salt or any other stationary storage tech is that economics of scale would just make it way cheaper if other industries also started using the tech.
@@ethanwelner1230 So what's blocking it from happening? List the roadblock/s please.
@@magnusauto7941 Trillions of dollars of up front investment and likely a decade or two before those investments pay off. We already have the technology to make it work, but governments would have top spend an incredible amount of money to actually build it. Batteries ALSO aren't being used for grid storage in any real way. There are some cute small projects but they represent less than a thousandth what we'd actually need. Outside of water retention storage (which is actually a pretty old tech) there's no actual grid storage at scale globally. It's a brand new tech since before widescale deployment of green power we didn't need it.
@@magnusauto7941 Trillions of dollars of infrastructure investment. The same thing blocking every other grid storage technology.
No, it's not more efficient, though H2 is more energy _dense_. The issue with hydrogen is it takes 50kwh to electrolyze 1 kg of h2 gas. Put that 1 kg into a Toyota Mirai fuel cell and you can travel 55-60 miles. Put 50kWh into a BEV and you can travel 180-220 miles. However most H2 distributed doesn't come from being electrolyzed, it comes from reforming methane with high pressure steam at oil refineries. The retail price for H2 is about $35/kg at the 47 fill stations in California. For $35 you could buy ~8-10 gallons gasoline nationwide. 50kwh on my personal electric bill costs $5 (taxes/fees included).
The FireStorm Plasma iPlug is a new entry in the formerly mundane area of Spark Plugs. All Spark Plugs produce "sparks" to ignite the Air Fuel Mixture in the combustion Chambers. FireStorm is different, it produces "PLASMA". By doing that, it eliminates the Catalytic Converter and EGR Systems and can still pass future emission requirements in California.
Here is a clip: • Firestorm Spark Plugs
Further testing after that clip was shot in Detroit proved a 70% savings in fuel all while affording a 125 More Horsepower.
It is a Paradigm Shift in Air Fuel Ratio as this plug operates at 30 to 1 Air to Fuel Ratio. All current IC engines operate at 14.7 to 1 and require a Cat and EGR.
FireStorm can even crack water right in the Combustion_Chamber thereby eliminating so-called HHO Generators. Can I hear fill your car up at the side of your house with the garden hose? YES!!!!
The rate at which cost / kWh is decreasing and weight (Wh / kg) means that all this development of hybrid technology will be wasted for the most part. If it takes 3-5 years to develop an efficient range extender or small battery hybrid with an IC powertrain, the BEV will have dropped well below average cost for ICE combos.
went to ACT Expo in Las Vegas back on May 20th - 23rd and while many Influencers and CZcamsrs in attendance put all their focus and attention into covering Electrification (which is understandable) unfortunately what this has BLINDED them to (likely also because they don't fully understand it) was the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF HYDROGEN TECHNOLOGY that was on display at the show...
it was actually staggering to see and very unexpected, however unless you personally attended it (while armed with an "Engineer's Eye" to know what the heck it is you're looking at in the first place) you would likely NEVER come away with this impression, particularly if you had already formed your opinion by way of ONLY just listening and watching their reports from the show...
morale of the story...? BEWARE of "Confirmation Bias" and the behavior of getting all your information from laymen, as this is ADVANCED technology so for better or worse, people WITHOUT degree, WITHOUT "portfolio", and WITHOUT any relevant Auto Industry work experience, really need not apply.
Full BEV adoption is the same as fusion.... It will never happen 😂
I have more EV charging points in my kitchen (10) than Hydrogen filling stations in the UK (6 - 2024).
I have more EV charging points in my house (60) than Hydrogen filling stations in the USA (59 - 2023).
If I were to install solar panels on my property I could generate my own fuel for my EV. I *could* generate Hydrogen but the efficiency would be far lower and the danger exponentially higher.
BOSCH is a great example of a lumbering, stale company that lacks clear vision; hedging their bets by trying to perpetuate existing methods and models that their business uses.
Adapt or die BOSCH; your piecemeal approach to product development, hedging your bets on broad technology plays is detrimental to your company's future.
BEV's have shown that Hydrogen is a dead-end for passenger and highway commercial vehicles, the companies that get with the program soonest will be the ones most likely to survive.
In 2007 I went with Honda Civic Hybrid and still have it. In 2018 we purchased a Honda Clarity PHEV and still driving it. We love it! Waiting for Honda to build its own EV. We have no interest in any GM products. In the meantime we may have to go backwards with a New Civic Hybrid. The 2007 is 17 years old. Everything works perfectly but it may develop a problem that due to age can’t be corrected. We love for the Civic Hybrid to be PHEV.
I just do not see how hydrogen makes sense of cars, maybe ag equipment or forestry but not cars.
Industrial equipment, aircraft, shipping, sure... Cars? Buses? Nope..
@@stickynorth Its a perfect tech for busses who use private refueling stations and are often owned by the government who can build out the supporting infrastructure. Personal cars shouldnt exist.
The creation of hydrogen and the inherent inefficiencies mean it will never compete with BEVs on running costs.
If Class 8 trucking looks like a good use-case for H2/Fuel Cells, what about locomotives??? Fuel cells generating power and feeding the electric drives in the locomotives? Train cargo corridors are just as defined as the major cargo trucking corridors.
A typical locomotive engine is good for 8MW. That is a huge amount of power fuel cells just aren't there yet.
Germany already has hydrogen trains in service. Japan is testing HYBARI, which is a hydrogen fuel-cell train designed by Toyota, Hitachi, and JR East. It's meant to replace the non-electric tracks that are currently powered by diesel trains. They are aiming to make it operational by the 2030s.
Grid paraty will allow cheaper hydrogen from electrolysis to then be used to hydrogenate acetylene that comes from carbide to make ethane which has a lower carbon ratio than acetylene. This could then be a Greener fuel to be used when we hit peak oil
GMs Voltec technology was an EREV all of the time it made sense to do so, and only after the battery was down to 20% (0% indicator), which was more than enough for most people's daily driving. It only became a PHEV (direct drive) at highway speeds where it was most efficient to do so, again, only after the battery was used. Also this was ten years ago, like Toyota did since then, they would have found ways to make it cheaper and much cheaper and more durable batteries, to the point where they could have offered it across their entire lineup like Toyota does.
Their biggest mistake was putting it in a vehicle most folks weren't interested in, a domestic compact sedan. Sure it was a development experiment but, they should have put the system in a CUV or SUV. It would have taken a bit of efficiency hit but they would have sold many more of them, especially since they could have rebadged it as a Cadillac or GMC. But then again when GM engineers come out with a great idea, if the bean counters and suits don't like it they kill it with zero long term thought.
BEVs will eventually win out when we have enough mines and battery factories turning out cheap batteries for the millions of new car buyers to hoard hundreds of km of batteries every year, year after year, but there's going to be decades of catching up until then.
I know GM is kicking itself for not continuing Voltec research right now. Toyota is raking in the cash by leveraging their limited battery supply across their entire lineup to improve their CAFE numbers instead of just putting them in a few BEVs. GM could have leveraged the Voltec R&D costs over their entire range by now, and instead of hoarding hundreds of km worth of batteries in a few vehicles they would have their entire line up as HEVs and EREVs all using Ultium batteries (and a few BEVs). You can make 40 HEVs and 5 EREVs for every one comparable BEV.
Also, the Volt was an EREV most of the time, and only after the battery was down to 20% (0% on the indicator), which was more than enough for most people's daily driving. It only became a PHEV (direct drive) at highway speeds where it was most efficient to do so, again, only after the battery was used.
Maybe if they built good EVs it would be better percentage like how many Tesla owners go back to ice?
Potential. But. More butts than the Simpsons. Not glide path. Crash landing. H2 costs going up.
A few points to get straight.
Because of the way EV chargers are currently set up they are never going to appeal to people that tow even when extremely fast charging solid state batteries arrive.
They need to change the layout of the charge points so they are in a similar layout to a service station with the chargers in a similar layout to a normal gas pump as this would alleviate many issues including leaving a trailer on while charging and the ability to pull up on both sides of a charger once super fast charging times are the norm. Laying out the charge points in this way would eliminate the issue of having to detach the trailer before charging.
Pure electric vehicles are here to stay with petrol hybrids and to a lesser degree diesel hybrids obviously coming to the fore.
The Toyota type of Hybrid drivetrain rather than plug in Hybrids will be the future.
Also Hydrogen will play a role but how big a role has yet to be seen. Certain applications are more suited to Hydrogen than others such as very large ships using Hydrogen propulsion with sail assistance and power generating gas turbines which can use 100% Hydrogen as fuel to name some practical uses for Green Hydrogen.
Obviously when charge times for electric vehicles are under 20 minutes from 5% to 100% different types of charging infrastructure will then become more viable.
My next personal vehicle will be a petrol battery hybrid SUV......
🇦🇺😎
38:50 - He's saying it takes more energy to electrolyze H2O to produce H2 on site, it's less efficient ... in return for "sustainability".
This show reminder me.of why I stopped watch your shows for several years. I thought you guys learned. I will stop listening again.
Throttling both demand and production capacity and putting up protectionist walls keeping affordable EV's out then complaining that there's no demand for electric cars is both just WRONG and deeply hypocritical if not evil and conspiratorial... Also why Detroit will probably never ever get money out of me...
It's also hypocritical and wrong to demand EVs since theyre good for the environment then getting mad every time anyone throws up barriers when those EVs use illegal forms of mining, forced labor, and can't actually show their supply chain and thus can't be measured for carbon impact. Kinda feels like it's just you having a team and treating this all like a sport.
Not really seeing hydrogen as a future in cars bit for heavy transport, shipping, trains it's great solution.
And about going from EV back ICE as an EV over never 😊❤❤.
Another great podcast keep it up 😊😊❤
I’ll explain Economics to these guys… My Tesla cost 1/3 to operate than ICE & 1/2 of a PHEV. Therefore BEV is the best fuel. Period.
I wish they'd have Michael Bernard on as a guest
We love our Chevy Volt. Now we're waiting for the Equinox PHEV in 2 years
Toyota's new battery plant is coming online next year so Rav4 Prime availability and prices should improve
Hydrogen is a dead end!
Im waiting for those $10,000 byd evs. It will compleliment my v8 ram
I think PHEV's are the way to go but can they keep the cost down?
there's a downturn in cars generally. EVs will dominate in 5 years because of basic economics. they are cheaper to run and maintain. once that becomes obvious to the average joe only real petrol heads will buy ICE cars, hybrid or otherwise.
I have an EV6 I will never go back for ICE for my comuter NEVER.
I have ICE cars for hobby racing. I don't think will go to EV.
I would go for a hybrid, butIdon't have sufficient faith ina stand-alone electric vehicles to go that far yet. PHEV is certainly possible. This is an extension of hybrid anyway and would allow me to leave on a long trip with a full tank and a full battery. But I live in Canada. It can be a lo-o-ong way between plug-ins 😂 😅 !
The Cox gentleman does not understand the "app" technology. Developing app is cheap, supported by ads often or a fremium model. Many FAIL at a low economic cost. Developing vehicles is expense and a failure could bankrupt a company.
Keeping your car is NOT more environmental than buying a new BEV! By far the amount of pollution is in USE, not manufacture!
The most basic knowledge is missing in guests...
What I want is a cheap compact AWD EV under $25K... Anyone want to deliver? Nope... Didn't think so... SMH...
Look into used Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, and Model 3. If it's below $25k and atleast 2 years old, you may qualify for a $4k tax credit.
Kinda asking for a lot for AWD under 25k from BEVs. You're essentially asking for a dual motor config cheaper than the cheapest awd ice vehicles.
Sounds like if the average driver only drives 40-45 miles, we need to making as many 1-2 seater cars with 50-60 mile ranges as cheaply as possible that are pure electric which is more than possible it seems to be the standard for Chinese/Japanese kei/city cars... And spare me the lecture about safety, especially when motorcycles are still allowed to menace our streets with gleeful abandon and NO safety regulations whatsoever...
Seldom heard so much shit on this show. The guy's basically talking the book of ICE builders and oil industry. Spread the bets, invest in everything possible so that the incumbent tech (ICE) lives on. For anyone who's coming from the energy analytics, the hydrogen talk esp. is cringeworthy, so much nonsense.
Way to call him out.
The guest is putting his eggs in all the baskets ,praying they all hatch🐣..., I just wasted a good hour of my day.😂
I don't understand why the musk cultists follow this channel. They never actually listen to the videos or speakers and always out themselves in the comments.
Give me a break… everyone knows that excess power can now be stored in batteries and not wasted…. All of Bosch talk stinks to high Heaven. Corporate greed over real solutions that make sense.
This is the Dumbest conversation I’ve ever heard on this subject.
17:35 - Jason’s rationale for PHEV isn’t even correct. “You don’t have to plug this car in but if you do you get the benefit of added electric range.”
Mohammed got it right because he’s ACTUALLY in the industry unlike Jason who’s standing outside the shop looking through the glass. He emphasizes the EV attributes and then the luxury of IF you run out of battery you have gas to fall back on.
WRONG the point of PHEV is to drive DAILY on electric range and to use the ICE portion when you need MORE RANGE. The problem is US manufacturers don’t give the vehicles large enough batteries. And I know all I did was change the emphasis of his sentence but people in the US miss that completely. Why pay for a PHEV if you’re only going to use the battery for “extra range” you buy a PHEV to save money on gas and only drive on a charge.
This is something Chinese premium vehicles are focusing on with PHEV… High KwH packs with upwards of 200Km range meaning the driver can drive on electric every day and has for road trips.
Autoline never has positive replies on EVs.
It is so obvious neither of these Talking Heads has ever lived with a BEV
What I want to see from Autoline and Bosch are HARD NUMBERS about all their targets/concepts vs the cost of BEV technology... I bet there is no conversation because the fellow from that company drives an EV himself...
Or it could just be that you're asking for trade secrets from a company in a non technical podcast meant for laymen audiences. I suspect theyre not gonna bust out a white board and do 6 hours of math for you.
Mohammed, here in Europe the very few hydrogen pumps we had, mainly in northern Europe (Sweden, UK, Norway)
are all shutting down. No customers, too expensive technology, one hydrogen pump even exploded.
Na. That's not the future and the hydrogen pump owners understood it early enough to cut losses fast.
Mohammed.. If your company invests heavily in hydrogen, then.. Get ready to go bankrupt. And fast.
Change technology before it's too late.
I’ve heard that hydrogen must be stored at cryogenic levels. Sounds expensive ………
Nah thats just if you use cryogenic storage which liquifies it and increases energy density. That's mostly for rockets where physical space is at an extreme premium. Freezing hydrogen doesn't make it lighter so the benefits for auto are less noticeable.
EV batteries are the rich vein of ore that have everything an EV battery needs.
Mine it once and recycle it forever. None of the raw material degrades or COUGH burns up
That is why EV’s and batteries in general will win in the end.
EV’s are the MOST SUSTAINABLE.
re Storm Być
If you still believe in hydrogen, I recommend watching Michael Liebreich videos. After the collection of facts in his presentations, there is no discussion about technology anymore. Just about motive. Why still talking about stupid ideas? I assume to slow down adoption of EVs and get rich on government hydrogen subsidies on the way.
Hydrogen makes no sense for consumers, it’s very inefficient unless you can use green hydrogen, costs are too high, too many parts, gas is difficult to store.
If there are emissions, how can it be zero emissions ? This another opportunity to look at efficiency, avoid cheating by OEMs, if the chemistry of BEV is to be better by within 2y, 500Kwh+, it becomes hard to justify. Prices are falling fast, again the price is the main obstacle for EV adoption.
Our grid needs a buffering layer, pickup up the overage , we have 800000 school buses is USA, if the are electrified, with bi-directional charging, they are used twice a day, the can meet peak load.
Hydrogen only works for isolated locations, commercial or heavy duty. BEV systems are immediately usable if you have power generation figured out at or close to location, with 80%+ efficiency. ICE is 26% efficient at best. BEV provide 100% torque at zero RPM.
People have shown that hybrids don’t provide the savings or reduced impact on the environment, people don’t plug them, it still burns hydrocarbons, which kills 1 in 5, there are pipe emissions regardless . Loads of data around the failed story of Hybrids. Granted the offer a solution for isolated areas where charging alternatives are poor, but if you can charge at home, most of the time, problem solved.
We should better size batteries for the given usage or applications, stop super sizing. Balance the wants vs the need.
I didn’t learn a single thing listening to this talk.
I’d go with a Bosch dishwasher!
Bosch make half decent cordless power tools, but I'm into Milwaukee and Dewalts. White haired bearded guest got it wrong , old cars pollute more as they age, and batteries get recycled forever.
czcams.com/video/abwXApkLhbc/video.html
Hydrogen isn’t a fuel in a fuel cell vehicle.
The electricity fuels the motor.
The hydrogen is just a storage medium.
As the lightest atom it is not very rich for the inefficient way fuel cells use it.
And it costs ~$15/gal equivalent.
And it’s very energy intensive to create it.
Hydrogen is anything but an “ideal fuel”.
SMDH 🤷♂️
Once we, the tax payers pay for it all.... Then it will happen. These companies exist to make money not invest for the future. A total fallacy to suggest they're waiting for anything other than someone else to pay for it.... They'll get it to, they always do.
Why are we even discussing hydrogen in 2024? 😂
Why not? Nothing wrong with looking at other sources. I want them to talk Solar
Yes you have to explain it because it’s a stupid question! And a stupid answer.
These idiots don’t know about Grid Scale batteries…
Mohammad at Bosch? Abdullah at Siemens, Islam takeover of Germany
why are we still talking about gas vehicle for the health of the planet it can only be electric this guy has NO idea or he is paid by the gas company's
None of the above.
Shanks' Pony?
Gasoline=electric hybrids are the way to bring partial EV powered vehicles to the Developing Third World countries which do not have robust electrical distribution system. In other places, they are just a stop gap measure until a serious EV charging station system is built to compete with Tesla.
Those nations don't need grids. In those places direct solar to battery systems are increasingly common much the same way the jungles have 5G cell service in many nations but no regular land lines...
That is partly true , but as the other commenter to you says it is already happening in developed countries and Asia as the sun shines most days and they have to import oil, this I say so as I'm going to do exactly that, go Solar and buy a Chinese EV as Tesla is yet to reach the Philippines, Electric grid is spotty at best there.
Last two statements by John McElroy says it all, thanks John and AD
@@stickynorth Not in highly urbanized areas, like Lima, Peru. Not all of the 3rd World is jungles!
Its hard to listen to you, go backwords into the future.