USA vs. Germany: CRAZY University Spending đ° Differences
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 18. 06. 2024
- With an annual budget in the BILLIONS - how do American Universities spend all that cash? From professors salaries to combating campus crime, expensive college sports to resort like amenities, we expose the myths and truths that are often shared about American University Life.
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Episode 80 | #highereducation #university #collegesports #collegefootball #studentdebt #budget #unitedstates #germany | Filmed October 12th, 2022
Jump to Your Favorite Part:
00:00 Intro
01:53 FACT or FICTION 1: Professor's Salaries
05:54 FACT or FICTION 2: Student-to-Faculty Ratio
11:06 Cool Videos Coming Next Month
13:49 FACT or FICTION 3: Campus Crime & Safety
18:49 FACT or FICTION 4: College Football & College Sports
23:18 FACT or FICTION 5: Universities are like Resorts
26:48 Questions for You
28:34 Bloopers
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So, the conclusion I get is: US universities spend 4 times more because they have to run their own town. And not just running it, it also needs to be pretty.
Yes exactly. It's not the resort features but everything from building and maintaining roads, police forces, parks, etc. Most German universities don't need any of this because they are so integrated into the city that the university infrastructure is mostly just the academic buildings.
Yup. Itâs awesome! European schools like like trash
Iâm a German working as a research administrator at a US public university. My impression is that students in the US get much more what I call âbabysittingâ or coddling. Some of it useful, some of it frills, some of it necessary within the US system. There are more dorms for students and the dorms come with dorm âsupervisorsâ. There are lots of academic advisors that you (sadly) donât have at German universities. There are social services, like health and counseling, something that is covered by the regular health system in Germany. Same goes for campus police. You mentioned the gym and spa facilities, and the extensive campus live. German students are expected to be much more self sufficient and independent, but Iâm sure it helps student outcomes to have academic advisors that help you navigate the curriculum.
As a research admin dealing with research grants, there is another aspect: German universities have a higher proportion of basic funding for research built into the budget: funds for technicians, grad students, supplies and travel to conferences. In the US this mostly comes from outside funding like federal grants (unless you are a rich private university with a large endowment). These grants have to be applied for and administered. So there are more people like me who help with proposals and make sure we follow all the federal guidelines for the funds.
And then there is the whole fundraising part. US universities spend much more time on raising philantropic funds than German universities. The university presidentâs job is mostly that of fundraising. And then you need staff for that, too. A German university doesnât have to waste time and money on that.
Regarding sports: at our urban cash-strapped public university, college sports is a money pit. We have a third tier football team. Yet football players have to be paid with scholarships, coaches earn lots of money etc. But we donât get a lot of revenue from tickets, because we have a loosing team. So our board of directors looked into cutting the football team. However, we canât because we are looked into contracts for 5 years out where get payed basically for being the punching bags of tier-1 football teams in front of their home crowds. Those contracts donât cover our costs, but canceling them would be costly. So catch-22!
Oh, and I forgot: you donât need a big student recruitment and admissions office at a German university. Or a financial aid office. And in regards to sports: football was supposed to subsidize the less lucrative sports (track and field, soccer, volleyball etc), but it looks like football doesnât even support itself!
I'm from the US, and still here for now and can relate to much of what you stated, including going to universities with losing football teams, but in one case a new stadium was built for $60 billion, plus tuition was raised.
Academic advisors are necessary due to the incredibly high potential out of pocket costs for U.S. students, yet for both of my degrees I was poorly advised; in the first school this resulted in a very heavy last semester rather than balancing classes, and in the second, I could have received a new master's degree instead of a second bachelor's. This may result in a positive since I'll trade lower pay now for the chance of a scholarship for a graduate degree, but ultimately, I'd much rather not have any of these "extras" and have the at least equal education without the debt.
I genuinely hate how much emphasis is placed on sports in American universities. It was one of my biggest frustrations when I was a student- I hated how much I was paying (via increased tuition) so that some grown adults could play with a ball. It feels like sports take priority over academics as far as student AND administrator priority. Fun fact- one of the inventors of CZcams actually went to my university. After his success and selling the company to Google, he made a donation to the university, specifically to be used for the Computer Science and Communications Media departments. The university instead decided to spend it on a new football stadium. The CZcams guy was livid, and immediately disassociated himself from the university.
That's shocking and extremely frustrating. Mizzou also had a embarrassing scandal. The Walton's (of Walmart) donated money to Mizzou for a new basketball arena. They had it named "Paige Auditorium" after one of the granddaughters.... Even though she went to Uni in California. A few years later it comes out that she cheated her way through college and was paying other students to do her work. They had to pay a lot of money taking her name down and renaming everything.
@@TypeAshton A rich person paying others to do their work for them isn't a scandal, it's just business as usual
There appears to be a theme that universities in the U.S. have to take over tasks that in Germany are covered by the state, like supporting low-income students or campus security.
As someone who also went to a College in the USA, I agree, it's a wonderful experience, BUT .... to make education financially more available for students I would rather ditch all the unnecessary amenities, including non-profitable college sports, the libraries of course I would definitely keep, they were wonderful! In my personal opinion the education should be on the forefront and it should be available to everybody. So I definitely prefer the German way. I am not saying this because I am German, but because I also saw the not so beautiful aspects of college life in the USA.
Also in Germany, much of the research is based in Max-Planck-Institutes or other corresponding institutes which have cooperations with universities e.g. Max-Planck-Institute director is also university professor. Therefore university rankings are comparing apples with organges
Thatâs an important thing to keep in mind when reading university rankings. In other countries, research is performed at universities whereas in Germany a ton of cutting edge research is done at research facilities like Max Planck Institutes, Fraunhofer or Helmholtz Institutes.
I would love to see a video about whether applying Anglo-American ranking criteria to European universities is justifiable because to my knowledge e.g. in Germany a lot of research is done in research institutes that might have links to universities but arenât part of them. Thus, there might be much stronger separation of teaching and research which automatically leads to lower rankings. Iâm not totally convinced that those are justified.
It is funny how 'infrastructure', which includes energy generation, roads, housing, are not paid from the public purse but the campus purse. That has to be the main difference between European and American systems.
I was at Drury University in Springfield, MO, for six months and the focus on safety was so weird to me. F. e., we had a training on active shooters, there were "no guns allowed" signs at neighboring OTCC and a lot of title-9-talks. Everyone told us to stay on Campus and to stay inside at night. It made me feel intimidated, at first. Because cities are laid out the way they are, no one is walking on the streets, especially after dark. I do think that they sometimes were too afraid and cautious. In Germany, we do have "Gleichstellungsbeauftragte" or Diversity Offices, as well, but rarely a police force or security department. Also, I would have no trouble walking (almost) everywhere at night.
Regarding amenities and spending: It was so nice to have a pool and such. However, I feel like it was to the detriment of basic infrastructure, such as dorms. They were pretty shitty.
I also think that it's interesting how the SGAs and student organizations spend their budget. I was surprised by the amount of (weird) events and raffles. I feel like German AStAs or StuRas mostly do political work and represent students' interests, while at least the Drury SGA was spending a lot of money on "fun" events and students winning TVs or Laptops.... It felt weird.
Minor correction: Assistant professors get W1, not W3. "Associate" professors get W2, though the sum is correct in both cases. It's important to note that this is just the base salary. The bonus is negotiated and will depend on the field and the professor's reputation. It can be significant. German universities are not required to publish individual professors' salaries.
Ah interesting. I was under the impression that professors started at W2. I taught at the Uni while getting my PhD, but since the degree wasn't completed and I was a contractual employee I was paid according to W1.
And Yes! Great point about base salaries. It's the same in the US too. I only showed base here.
@@TypeAshton Tenured professors ("auf Lebenszeit") start at W2. W1 is specificially for junior/assistant professors (limited to 3 years, plus another 3 years after successful evaluation, plus a possible one year extension). Baden-WĂŒrttemberg does not have many W2 positions at research universities (UniversitĂ€ten), so most professors there are actually W3.
All correct, just an addition: at the UoAS (HAW) the majority of positions is W2 (something like 75%), for lifetime if the person does not apply successfully for a W3 position at a DIFFERENT university. - And @Ashton: I am surprised they installed you as W1 ("Beamter auf Zeit"), I would have expected a TV-L E13 or similar employee position.
Good morning and I wish you a nice Sunday, it's really nice to see you,
your videos are very interesting and the facts on the respective topic are well researched and explained.
That's why I'm always very happy about a new video from you, even if I honestly don't have a real idea of ââeverything you report or have the time to watch you on the same day it appears.
Thank you for all the work you do for your videos.
the sports one is also probably not taking into account the full ride athletic scholarships that all the players get, and that all the other students have to pay
Actually, the number of athletic scholarships is limited much more than we all realize. You see huge squads at the events, but only a relatively small number of those athletes are actually on scholarship.
@@michaelmedlinger6399 so they don't get wages AND they don't get scholarships?
@@daemonbyte There are a lot of so-called walk-ones. They are people who simply want to play football (for example), and if they can display a certain amount of skill, they will be allowed to suit up and stand with the team during the games. Most of them rarely, if ever, play, but occasionally a walk-on will be an exceptional player. Texas had a place kicker who was a walk-on, and after an excellent career at Texas, he went on to the NFL and plays today (I believe, or last time I heard) for the Baltimore Ravens. And he was a music major in voice!
@@michaelmedlinger6399 I'm not doubting it's true. I'm just amazed that players accept this when the industry makes so much money and they're not even getting their tution paid for.
@@michaelmedlinger6399 oh, didn't know that, thanks. But it's still a lot of money, even if only 4 players on the team have full rides and 6 have partial scholarships, with the cost of american college, that is A LOT of money.
Gday BFF, again a really interesting and well researched topic. Such a pleasure to watch your presentations even if sometimes over my head. I always feel like I learn something new from you. đđ
Statistics summary:
Missouri: 29,866 students
Freiburg: 24,240 students
Missouri: 18 to 1 student-faculty ratio
Freiburg: 33 to 1 student-faculty ratio
Missouri: $1.34 billion expenses
Freiburg: $365 million expenses
Missouri: 59% spent on salary ($795 m)
Freiburg: 72% spent on salary ($263 m)
Missouri: 13,392 faculty; 2,932 staff
Freiburg: 4,502 faculty; 2,142 staff
Freiburg has 59% fewer employees (62% fewer using above numbers).
Missouri has its own police force with 71 police officers and 15 to 50 part-time safety officers.
Freiburg is policed by the city police department.
US colleges spend $18 billion on sports which bring in only $10 billion in revenue.
To me, it looks like Missouri has four times the expenses of Freiburg because of its enormous faculty - 13,392 vs. 4,402. Even though a lot of faculty are now non-tenure track and paid per class, the sheer number must add up. Sports probably eat up a significant chunk. Since there are only around 100 police officers with around one-third part-time out of over 16,000 employees, I doubt police cost is significant.
6:57 They say that 47% of Missouri's expenses are spent on salary and wages, but their numbers say 59% ($795 million out of $1.34 billion).
I am blown away by the facilities you showed- the pools, rec centre omg. Did I miss something? Is that extra, I mean do students pay extra to use those facilities? I had to join a separate gym in London, where I did get a student discount, but we had absolutely no facilities that were not to do with study. I will say though, it all looks so huge in the US, Iâd be overwhelmed! I just like cute and small, what can I say?! Happy Sunday evening, dear BFF xxx
Typically you pay a "student fee" which includes access to all of the amenities. However, spa treatments were extra. đ
@@TypeAshton lol I assumed those were extra. Now, that would be amazing, free spa treatmentsâŠ
Many of those facilities are 'named' buildings - with wealthy alumni or other benefactor.
The wish to immortalize their name on campus and give millions to 10's of millions and they talk with the schools about what is possible
Land grant universities like Mizzou usually have plenty of land left...and often enough classrooms - so it often is theatres or sports and wellness facilities
I would guess in every school with a campus in the US such facilities are included. In larger campuses it may be necessary if there is no gym otherwise in the area, or they may partner with a local gym and expand it. I did go to one school with a dedicated student gym, but the pool was only half length, where the dedicated Olympic pool was for female athletic swimmers training and competition only, as apparently the mens team wasn't popular enough (financially) to continue. That same school spent $60b on a new football stadium with higher tuition and donor money.
Ultimately the facilities look nice, but a dedicated gym that still has proper funding is better, and separating education from money is better as well.
Well researched and presented, ty!
Thanks!n
I really like the German system a lot more. I studied abroad in the UK and it was very similar to how you described German universities. That was the only time I lived in a dorm since it was actually cheaper than living off campus. The best part about it was all the sword fights I got into at the local castle.
Fantastic video guys, love how it dispelled some of my own preconceived notions about the US.
Granted I think comparing salaries without cost of living adjustments and personally i think comparing disposable income is a better method but would love to hear your thoughts on this matter.
I was very much surprised by the sports though as I thought they we making lots of money (loved the kicker pun/punts) but after considering your findings I would not be surprised that most money made on college athletics actually benefit outside organisations (such as the ncaa) but that's just some speculation on my side..
Anyways keep up the great work..
Ps. Looking forward to your ancestry episode!
American professors have way more disposable income. Taxes are a lot lower in the states and the cost of living in Missouri is like dirt cheap. If you make $130,000 as a professor there, you can buy a mansion with a pool and hot tub no problem
I guess that âwe choose the university based on our preferred football teamâ in the USA mirrors well the competitive thinking . But it also shows the misleading assumption within American population to think a good sport team means good education for that university
Great report! My takeaway tough: The lack of transparency on what US universities spend those insane fees, sounds pretty fishy. Are they ever audited? Do they pay taxes? What do the students actually get in return that justifies these fees? A massive football station won't help a law graduate find a job after all...And if you think about most starting salaries (not everyone becomes a doctor), it's gonna take a lifetime for some to pay back those loans. Not worth it. Also: It's the resort like structure that requires all that additional staff.
About the salaries of professors (assistants and full), I don't know how it is in Germany but in Belgium a job like that will get you "hospitalisatie verzekering" (=hospitalisatie insurance, that pays you things that the regular government insurance doesn't pay for during hospitalisation like a single room, government insurance only pays for a double). And in Belgium you'll also get pension-saving, that is your employer putting money in a pension fund for you. Then there's also holiday money, which is also on top of the salary. And the "13th" month (again that is in Belgium so I don't know if Germany has this) which is a bonus at the end of the year.
The Security on Campus is very different in germany yes, but there are universities who have special security services. My BA Uni in DĂŒsseldorf for example has contracted a security company for that. Those guys obviusly don't have nearly any jurisdiction, but they patrol the campus (especially at night), have there own office on campus etc. Other Unis like the FU Berlin have nearly 24/7 state police stationed near the uni. Not much, but some officers.
It would most likely be easier to compare those cost if you take a german uni with a compact campus. Not every uni is spread out over the whole city like Freiburg. DĂŒsseldorf for example is very compact. So compact that even the dorms are in parts on the campus and the biggest part directly arround it. I bet the Police filters "Uni Crimes" in those areas in the statistic a little bit.
Oh, American universities have security guards, too. They guard the entrances to buildings and such.
The private police forces are completely separate from that. They have guns and cars and can throw you in jail.
@@TheRealE.B. the company on my old campus also had cars, but yes...nothing else. And the be fair...im happy about that. no need for armed guards on a campus here. ^^
At my University in Heidelberg there is also security that can accompany you to your bus stop for example. Taxis are also cheaper at night for women, so that they can get home safer. I think security is just done differently in Germany, it's not like there is no security at all and most of it (especially the police) isn't payed by the university.
Thank you, that was al lot of fun (for me) and probably a lot of work (for you).
Thanks so much! We're glad you liked the video!
When comparing professor's salaries, don't forget that for german professors, civil servant status usually means they do only have to pay income tax but no social security deductions, so they get to keep a higher net income than an economic employee with a comparable gross salary. I don't know a lot about how taxation in the US works, but still my guess is that the difference in what ends up in their bank account would not be as much.
The salary / employee cost comparison in the first section compares, if I understood correctly, the base salaries. If so, are those really the right numbers to compare. Even assuming that health plans may be roughly comparable (a whole different topic that I remember you guys videos about), the fact that faculty in Germany usually are civil servants means that they will have a huge pension when they retire and which they will not have any deductions from their salary for. Nore (if the state's / university's accounting / cost reporting still works as it did many years ago) would it show as as faculty cost in the university's annual budget.
To get comparable pension benefits, a US professor would likely have to set aside 10% or more of their salary (unless they should get a same value "package" paid for by the university alone on top of the compared salary).
It may be a bit comparing apples and oranges because of such differences.
One can debate if needing a police force to patrol a campus is a good thing to begin with. I've studied in Amsterdam , and if something happend it was mostly indoors , outside the actual school setting. It happend in those creepy student societies or at parties. Not so much at school or on campus. I can imagine how Police officers give a sense of security. However the infamous few 'bad apples 'can misuse their authority to make things way worse, just as they do in society .
One can debate anything. Literally anything. But an effectively private (sorta in case of public universities, surely in case of private universities) police force is⊠very American.
Good point đ
Either such a police force has the power of arrest and everything, then you throw out the notion of a police force having proper accountability to the public. Or they do not, then you sacrifice equality before the law.
Every couple of years, I forget how useless cops are and waste breath calling 911 in response to a crime or other minor emergency.
American universities have their own police forces because it makes helicopter parents feel better about sending their babies off on their own.
As part of your inquiries, you might want to look into the housing of students too: German universities usually have a wild mix of these: the bulk of the students i. e. of JWGU in Frankfurt (about 30.000 students in 20 faculties) is either living with the parents in places up to roughly 50 km around Frankfurt, using public transport or a cheap car for the commute. Those from further afar mostly try to organize private accommodation - frequently sharing a flat with others ('Wohngemeinschaft'). But there is also some thousand subsidised rooms offered by the 'Studentenwerk' and the big churches. The Studentenwerk is usually a substructure within the University, sometimes shared between several Universities in the same city, that also provides the catering (Mensas and Cafes). They are also a go to place to ask for stats on that, because they try to monitor the demand as part of their business. And then there is a tiny fraction of those, that are catered by traditional student organisations ('Studentenverbindungen'), which are financed by alumni - remotely similar to American 'Honour Societies',
It might be interesting, how this compares to the system of dorms offered by American universities I heard of.
Hi there! This was the topic of the video JUST prior to this one! You should check it out and let us know what you think.
I am loving this series
I'm really glad you liked it!!
Thx for the excellent video! Proper research, I'd say! ;)
Higher salaries for US professors had to be expected, as it is the case in the tech industry. I worked in the Silicon Valley for a Fortune 500 company but my cost of living was much higher than in a comparable job in Germany, no surprise here.
But my quality of life, given the average of 55+h per week common in the industry, lack of (what in Europe we consider) a proper vacation (amongst quite a number of other things) puts a better salary into perspective rather quickly.
Very true. Looking at it that way you earn more in Germany per (working) hour because you have less hours per week and less work weeks per year. So once you have a "decent" salary you obviously are better off in Germany/ Europe.
@@urlauburlaub2222 Oh, it is you again. You seem to know everything better but don't get anything done yourself, which has to be everybody else's fault. Why don't you just move to your paradise, live their for a few decades, raise your kids and let us continue the discussion after that time?
One thing about the infrastructure: if a German university needs a new building, they often get a grant from the local state or from the federal government for that. These grants are not part of the normal budget and are project specific. The university often has to pay a small amount themselves, but the burden of the costs is at another level and not part of the budget. Is that the same in the US or do they have to pay it from their budget.
And I think that is a recurring theme that might contribute to the âsmallerâ budgets in Germany. Universities are part of their community and use the services provided by the town. They do not have a dedicated police force but use the normal police force, they do not maintain there own power planst but use the normal electrical grid, they do not have their own swimming pools but use the ones provided by the town, etc.
Payment figures are one element of the all around remuneration. There are also other factors to calculate the "cost" of the workplace which also contribute to financial security for the employed people.
1. Payment
2. Social Security (health insurance, retirement plan -- and if not "verbeamtet" *) unimployment insurance and the benefit spectrum of the German "Berufsgenossenschaft" in case of accidents related to work)
3. Paid time off (Vacation, paid holidays, sick leave)
*) "have gained the official status of a German civil servant"
There's a LOT that goes into it, and because we were looking at 5 different factors, we kept this section a bit brief. But in the US, typically professors can ask to have their yearly salary distributed over 9 months or 12 since they "technically" are only required to work 9 months out of the year. That being said, if they choose to teach over summer break those are considered "extra" payments and can increase their salary even more. US professors also benefit from a pretty nice teacher's pension (somewhat similar to the German pension system) and retirement packages.
Hey Ashton and Jonathan,
Thank you first for the great video. I was really surprised that universities pay their coaches more than their professors.
On another note: Maybe it doesn't affect you and you have spoken about this with an consultant. If not maybe you should look into it. As a German (?) Company you have to disclose when you are doing an advertisement with "Werbung" written somewhere otherwise some lawyers might send you a letter.
I think the Landed Medienanstalten should have information about this.
Maybe it doesn't affect you but I wanted to point this out.
Thanks for your content I really enjoy it to watch
Hi there! You were notified at the beginning of the video in the top left corner. â€ïž This is a requirement by CZcams as well.
In the UK ,Oxford and Cambridge Universities did have their own police force.
Oxford has stopped running theirs as the cost of complaints and diversity measures became disproportionate. Wearing bowler hats, they patrolled with university officials, known as Proctors, to enforce university regulations like not attending dance halls or cinemas.
Cambridge has retained their University Police but I think dance halls and cinemas are no longer off limits.
How much of the university facilities can be used by non university members? When I was at high school, I went to the libary for research for homework, at the weekends, the swimmingpool was open to the public. They had sportcourses like gymnastics, sunday, we took our tennisracks and when one of the tenniscourts was unoccupied, it was free to use. And the famous "Uni Sport" at sundays in winter: at the big gym they had set up some badminton courts, the big trampoline, two or three boom wheels (Rhönrad) and other stuff. With an entrance fee of 1-2 DM (don't remember) you could do sports from 10am to 5pm under the supervision of some sport students. I also was a member of the university sailing club.
good video
thank you for your content â€ïž
excellent video, thank you. there are a few questions that I want to leave here: given all that money spent, who has a better education, the freiburg student or misou student? is jonathan able to compare what an engineer, german uni or american uni, is able to do after graduation? how is architecture different, studied in both countries? so the aspect, what I can I get for my parents' money in germany or the usa? second thing are those fraternities and sororities, who finances them? why are they so important? sports and fraternity membership plus tutoring for sportsmen and -women seems to be very important - but are those people as good as the other students?
Interesting ... In every video of this series there are some clips from the TU Braunschweig. Either the UniversÀtsplatz, the interior of the Audimax or the Haus der Wissenschaft (with the Naturhistorisches Museum and the Ristorante LaCupola).
Great video, really informative. Just for a future reference - when stating an amount (here of money but the same goes for any other measurement, especially in imperial/metric), could you please convert them for us on the screen? I understand that with money the exchange rate changes over time but just as a rough calculation so that I don't have to wonder how a certain amount in euros and a different one in dollars are comparable. Thank you. đ
Currently the Euro and the Dollar are actually very similar in value. At the moment the exchange rate is 1 dollar = 1.03 Euros.
The sport fact surprised me the most. I new that they have high expenses but i tought they have much higher income, at least in the popular sports, from TV rights and attendence. Might me that the not so spectator rich sports eat up a lot budget as well or that they simply overspend so much for their popular sports. The saleries for e.g. the football staff is ridiculous.
First: the time at university was indeed wonderful. As you say, a time of growth (for me, the first time living away from my parentsâ home), meeting all kinds of fascinating (mostly!) people, etc.
Second: when I was at UT (University of Texas) at Austin, there was often a lot of debate about the money spent on athletics. But as I understand it, the Athletics Department there is today completely independent financially from the university; it neither receives funds from nor contributes funds to the university budget itself. It must pay for itself. That being said, Texas is a HUGE name in college athletics (especially football, but basketball and baseball are quite large as well) and receives enormous amounts of money from television and (especially) merchandising. Texas has one of the largest fan bases nationwide and sells incredible quantities of T-shirts, sweatshirts and all manner of trinkets bearing the university logo and/or mascot. The football team recently had a crowd of over 105,000 for a game (again, ticket sales in sports today are generally almost a minor factor in the budget).
Texas is also one of the richest universities in the country. When the university was founded in the late 19th century, the legislature endowed the university with enormous amounts of land in West Texas. Mostly barren desert - until oil was discovered there!
Thanks for the series!
A $2000 fee per student for the sports team?! That's a ridiculous amount to pay for something that isn't even connected to academics. I pay âŹ2209 tuition per year here in the Netherlands.
I agree. Its a tall price to pay and then you still have to pay for tickets to go to the game as a student!
@@TypeAshton what? I get tickets included in tuition
@@TheRockkickass Which American University did you attend? At Mizzou football and basketball tickets are extra. mutigers.com/sports/2020/9/1/students.aspx
@@TypeAshton Colorado State in Fort Collins
@@TheRockkickass that's unusual
27:12 Da hast du die Kurve gerade noch gekriegt Jonnathan!đ€Ł
27:12 You just about got your act together there Jonnathan!
you both are my favorite.
i love you so much.
any video of you do it.
Regarding whether or not players are âpaidâ is a subject of debate. They get scholarships, room & board, etc. along with alumni âsupportâ. That said, winning sports teams have been shown to attract good students to the University.
âAlumniâ support is a tricky business! Both the athletes and the university can get into serious trouble if it is determined that the athletes have received gifts (or especially money) from alumni.
I would disagree with your conclusion to point 5. I would count having their own power plant to resort costs. Same goes for all the dorms, that have to be maintained etc. I would assume this also raises employment costs. Or maybe we don't call it resort costs but gated community costs.
We also have swimming pools and sport facilities but they are open to public in the city also
Many years ago (50+ years), I was a student at Mizzou and they needed both a new President and a head football coach. They were so aggressive to fill their coaching position it was filled long before we had a new President.
Great video, as usual! I think the salary gap was the biggest surprise for me. I always assumed that teaching staff in US universities was paid much more. Thanks for the in-depth look at that!
Teaching staff isn't, but football staff is. They only mentioned the gap at the top, but afaik even lower level staff there makes way more than a regular professor.
These salaries are before taxes. Hence your base of comparison may be off.
@@oneukum taxes don't matter in the bigger picture, because even though that's higher in Germany, the money is also spent way better
@@sascharambeaud1609 No. You have considerable competition for great scientists.
@@oneukum I'm pretty sure (from what I have encountered so far, which is admittedly anecdotal) that's more an issue of bureaucratic hurdles and project funding and less of personal salaries.
The advantage in Germany for a professor on the other hand is, that he/she is a âBeamte(r)â with all the benefits that comes with it. But I also saw a popular TV show where there was mentioned that there are also lifetime appointments at US universities. Is this fact or fiction?
German universities often donât have such a campus structure like in the US. Even if most of the buildings and faculties are squashed into one place or square or quarter, most of the time students donât live on campus. Either they are living at home or in a âWohngemeinschaftâ or in a âStudentenwohnheimâ which can be operated by the university or by a private company. Especially older Universities often have faculties spread all over the city, because new faculties were built over the centuries and had to grow like the city did. I studied in GieĂen, where there are multiple campuses at the edges of the city like the âPhlilosophikum I & IIâ and the buildings for natural science and the hospital, where you donât have to leave that campus or even the faculty specific building. But for biology it was a totally different game. While many facilities where at the natural science campus, many buildings were spread all over the city like i.e. our main office and the botanical garden. So often you could see a lot of students (not only biologists) on bikes trying to get from one auditorium to the next to the canteen (for natural science it was close to the university hospital) and back again. So if you came to a building with a lots of bikes in front of it, it is probably a property of a University/College. đ
Would be interesting to get the cost of scientific equipment separated out. I guess the University of Heidelberg spend so much money for experimental equipment, that the SPAR of Missouri would not be in 1 % range but would not be allowed for our policies in Germany. :-) I liked your video very much :-)
It was shocking to me that D1 Football and Basketball don't make money hand over fist considering the earnings from tv contracts, ticket sales and merch. But yeah, they pay a lot for their facilities and some trainers are very well compensated. Pretty much college sports with pro - like conditions.
We were pretty shocked by this as well.
The College sports that make money subsidize the programs that do not. Title IX (US law) requires equal number of sports scholarship between men and women. Additionally, NCAA rules require that Colleges must offer a minimum number of sports to qualify for D1 membership. Schools are not allowed to have just the teams that make money.
A lot of classes in american universities are taught by graduate students (teaching assistants), which are paid a lot less than professors. And graduate students have to teach them, because that's the only way they can afford tuition for their courses. When I got my PhD in Chemistry I taught a lab that received hundreds of students all day long, with dozens of teaching assistants working. So that should be taken into account when comparing faculty numbers too.
They also do the same in Germany. All of the PhD and some masters candidates helped to teach classes and while getting my PhD I taught 4 classes (3 under grad and one grad course).
@The Black Forest Family - Thank you very much for these detailed and well-founded answers to my profound and provocative questions! - Unfortunately, many Germans see - the often exaggerated - US film culture as the American reality and find it "cool" to adopt many of the bad behaviors shown there into their German everyday life, such as the F-word or the stinky finger, what in Germany was practically unknown until a few decades ago and was certainly not practiced in everyday life!
On the other hand, I have adopted the sympathetic US behavior of relaxed, friendly addressing strangers in my everyday life, according to the motto: "A kind word for every man at every suitable occasion!"
And I've had very good experiences with it and even found real, good, new friends this way.
Both of you are a good role model for me, because your carefree cordiality and positive world view has enriched my life and changed it for the better, and for that I thank the dear Black Forest family from the bottom of my heart!
Cheesy football jokes on sunday morning? YES. Thank you!
Really interesting video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
My biggest surprise as a German and former student was the sports part of the video. I have never heard of a connection between a university and some kind of commercial sports activity and own recreation centers, at least not in Germany.
In my experience, a university in Germany is only there for education and research and the rest of a student's life is not the university's business. So, of course, some expenses do not exist for a german university as opposed to an american university.
Now - thank you for your great video series - I got an impression of where the high tuition fees go: as a student at an American university, you pay not only for the education, but also for living there, for kind of a lifestyle, right?
What was not mentioned is that athletics are a major source of public relations for US state universities especially. They attract public support for the institutions. Here in Tennessee, where government taxing and spending are low the University of Tennessee would likely not get the support it needs from the state if not for our mighty Vols footballl team (and our Lady Vols basketball team). The whole state is bloated up with pride and joy due our glorious weekend victory over hated Alabama for the first time in 15 years! The state university should do well in next years state budget, even given the recession.
@@perfessermarshton5209 That is both interesting and disturbing for me. It seems like as a student you need to perform athletically so that your studies in a completely different subject, e.g. architecture or medicine or laws, can happen in the future. Right? Was that a blessing or curse for you?
@@Pewtah I am sorry if I left the impression I was a student participating in athletics. I am an older man who never was an athlete, merely a fan who never even went to the main UT campus, only to ur local branch which has its own small time football team. As for athletics and academics, big time athletes are not generally expected to achieve at a high level in academics. For lesser players and those in more minor sports athletic scholarships offer an opportunity to have college without affluent parents. my father hated football, when he was a TA at Tennessee 70 years ago he was not allowed to give a football player a failing grade. Since then several rounds have enforcement have made academic requirements for athletes much higher. Twenty years ago there was controversy at Tennessee as many scholarshipped football players were not graduating. This has I believe been fixed.
Not sure what the sporting status of German University life, but here in the UK, there is quite a thriving Sporting environment, although nowhere near the levels that you get in the USA. Sport is considered one of the numerous extra-curricular activities at any University that are encouraged although not mandatory. The various sports each form their own separate societies. It is a requirement from BUCS (British Universities & Colleges Sports - the overseer of all University sports) that students participating in ANY sports are at their respective establishments on a purely academic purpose. None will be there because they can throw or kick a ball.
The spa thing. I am in Milwaukee, and the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee, has no spa, when I went there (2003-2007).
It does now
Thanks a lot for the Video. Can you do one on Bike safety and security for children and adults.
I do not own an E-Bike. I do not see the need so far. Our city is mostly flat and I do not bike long distances.
This was a great video, thanks. However, the sheer amount of employees you can see in any other business in the US. Take a restaurant for example. You have easily 2-3 times more employees, each one for a very specific task in a US VS a German restaurant. The same is true for pretty much any other business, thus the way higher cost for everything.
This could be another video idea for you guys. Comparing employee count for similar businesses with similar quantity output, not monetary.
Ah interesting idea for a video! Thanks!
Staff at Universiy in Germany is everything from Professors to HiWis (Assistant Scientists) and Teaching Assistants (as in: Tutors and (Under)grad student who hold their own minor class sessio as part of a professors "lecture supplementation").
German Universities are notorious for being understaffed.
There has been a ranking I recently got sent by a colleague from my university which ranks the "best" universities, but it also hat a "students per staff member" metric, where our university had a ratio of something around 40:1 (I was a few weeks ago i saw it last time), with 45,000 Students and 11.000 Staff members (of which 3.000 were "non scientific" staff, they publish this verbatim on their website, however I do not know if non scientific staff includes what we call the (under)grad tutors, or it is just a number for member of administration; I ASSUME administration etc. are NOT part of the "non scientific staff" and as such not part of staff numbers in general as these jobs are often outsourced to other companies and the university just has a contract with them, but their employees are not part of the institution, this I assume non-sc. Staff are "minor" teaching assistants/tutors without a bachelors degree).
And when comparing that to other universities (ours was quite high in the ranking #1 or #2 in DE), especially the american one, noone had a number that was even close to that. Mostly somewhere around 15 or 20:1. Again, this is about how you define staff but I just find these numbers curious and I wonder how the classroom situation is in US universities.
Sometimes we have exercise session where the seminarroom is so full that people had to sit on the floor because they couldn't employ more tutors due to buget cuts). I've rarery heard this be the case in the US but what do I know, i don't study there...
Hello dear ones, is yes again a highly interesting video what you have uploaded there. And as always, very well researched. A professor in the U.S. may earn more than a professor in Germany, but compared to Germany, and you know it yourself, the costs, I do not want to list them all, but a lot higher. I think that a professor in Germany has more of his money than his colleague in the USA.
Hi there! Glad you enjoyed the video! It depends, really. Most public Universities in the US are somewhat similar to gov't jobs in that many still have a State pension, like Germany, which is nice perk that a lot of other jobs in the US don't have. Insurance and other perks can "sometimes" also be pretty nice plans with good coverage for not *crazy* high prices.
I teach at Wayne state and in the past 12 years we had one kidnapping with death, one kindnapping with an escape, and many robberies on the streets.
Does that justify a campus police ?
My other school UW Menominee a small town tiny city on a corn field had police who rather busted parties or directed traffic after bars were closed and looked for minors who got drunk.
Kinda a waste of resources I feel âŠ
Mizzou gets $49.9 million per year just from the SEC. I can see an Ivy or a Division 3 school losing money on football, but not a Power 5 school in a non pandemic year. Some schools probably do wind up in the red, but likely due to other sports than football, basketball, and baseball. Also, i would be surprised in Mizzou bought out Odom. Often in situations like that boosters donate money that covers the buyout.
Do I miss it or what is the big bucket which us need more spending? Looks like there are not big differences?!
I just watched this episode and must point out a few things about sports you left out. At a school like Mizzou, and any major D1 school makes money on football and men's basketball only. Due to title IX, the money generated goes largely to support women's sports and the few remaining non-revenue men's sports. Often forgotten is that football and to a lesser degree men's basketball are the only venue where cheerleaders, dance teams, majorettes and the huge marching band can perform in front of an audience. These students are all paying customers of the university and would go elsewhere if these opportunities were not available at Mizzou.
Another consideration in your calculations is that most European universities are not residential and as such don't have those costs and staff.
What really surprised was that the college sport teams actually need money form the university. College sports is a large busines and even if the top trainers get almost as much money as in the professional sport leagues with players not beeing paid it was always presented as if the sports teams actually earned money for the college...
As for your questions what I would have liked more budget in my akmer mater in Bonn ? More modernised buildings. The university of Bonn takes residence in the Electoral Palace and some other historic buildings. Some buidings are not historic though, but just old and loook like it, too. So it would be great if there were some more money for modernization.
Just to clarify: This does not include the equipment ! The equipment at least at my faculty was as state of the art as it was in Baltimore.
Apart from that i can not think of anything though. I do not need a pool at campus, when a public pool with discount for students is only half a mile away. In that case I think lower fees are worth much more to most students. ;)
I already knew a lot of this but now I'm even angrier and even if we don't move to Europe I will be sending my kids to college in Europe.
The most important question is what comes out of it in the end. What is the quality of students who graduate from the respective universities? How in demand are they in the labor market, which staff (professors) work at universities?
What I also wonder is how many students graduate from colleges and then work in a completely different area.
As a Quebecer, I can't believe that universities have their own police force! I can understand that they would have some security guards, but actual police sound nuts to me!
About the employee numbers:
As in large firms nowadays you hardly know ho belongs to the firm and which functions to other sub- or other firms.
You mentioned the campus police: That's not allowed here - it's public responsibility.
In German universities you have the Studentenwerk with very many employees - don't know how Freiburg university counts them.
Also: Don't know how all the real estate things are counted here.
For me kind of not fulfillable task to compare.
Salary comparisons: Can you really compare an employment of a german public servant with a private employment in the US? Especially when talking about a full professor, they do have a couple of fancy treats that I would be surprised to see in the US.
For one, there is the pension you get as civil servant, which is pretty amazing, you really don't need to worry about money during retirement. Of course there is also all the mandatory social service benefits you get from every employment, but they are usually better in the public sector. As a civil servant you cannot be fired too, so this job is basically a life-time appointment. On top of that, as a full professor you enjoy similar protections as a judge, you basically have no boss. You also can do side jobs (which very often contributes more to the income than the salary). There are limitations, but they have few teeth. I don't know how that compares to the US, but the salaries are probably not a very telling measurement without considering the financial context.
US professors also receive a pension from the respective state teacher's association. Also, US professors typically come with tenure which come with many of the same job protections and flexibility.
Itâs actually pretty similar. Tenure, generous public pensions, healthcare virtually free. US public colleges are more like European public employee systems than their US private counterparts. My father retired as a full professor from Cal and made more money as a retiree than he ever did while working!
i have to say, after attending university in both Germany, Heidelberg and Germersheim, and the US, Middle Tennessee State, and watching my wife go to UGA in Athens, Ga, none of these schools looked anything like Mizzou. Of course i went to University in the 90s, and my wife in the 2000s, so maybe things have changed more recently? I for one can see the appeal of a huge, vibrant, and beautiful campus. I would go to Mizzou, too. but i want to pay german university costs.
You canât do both. Either cheap out for mediocrity or spend for luxury
The German university does not have to feed or house its students. Hence the staff needs for that go away.. So the staff levels are not really comparable.
I expected the sports being very expensive but I was surprised that it costs so much more. I can't understand why american students still support this system. I heard so many people complaining about high student loans but never heard about complaining about 2,3 mio for a football coach.
Considering that the Euro/Dollar ratio were ( until recently) ca. 1: 1.2 over the last decade the payment difference becomes even smaller.
Yes! Excellent point.
Dude, there was a 40 grand difference between the top tier prof.
@@TheRockkickass The gap between low wages and high wages in generally much higher in the US compared to Germany. That's not a surprise.
@@faultier1158 yup!đđŒ
Sorry. I cannot answer the question in the end. Because I donât have a ( what you would call )a college degree. I think you would call that an associate degree. But can you try to explain the difference between an associate degree and a german Ausbildung ( mit und ohne Meister/ Techniker)?đ
Here is the short version in German for answers like "we don't really know" -> JEIN
JEIN only work for question that can be either answered with a yes or no. For everything else you would still need to use: "Ich weiĂ es nicht", or "Keiner weiĂ es":
@4:15 It seems you are not considering end-of-the-year and vacation bonuses when calculating the year salary. If you do, I believe the year salaries would be even closer, perhaps a little higher in Germany.
To be fair, some federal states do not pay their professors on a 13 month schedule like other German industries.... I also specifically only looked at base salaries for American professors and did not add in additional bonuses. American professors have the option to be paid their salaries over only 9 months (because that is their "working" schedule) or on a 12 months schedule so that its easier to budget. But many professors take on additional teaching responsibilities over the summer that dramatically increase their salaries. All of the professors salaries I quoted in this video from Mizzou had a "base salary" and an "end-of-year salary" that differed anywhere from 10 to 40,000 USD (which are both publicly available online).
@@TypeAshton, thanks for the additional explanation! :-) Very interesting series, btw. Kudos!
Maybe in US students live mainly on campus and sexual assault happens there and is related with university, while in Germany/Europe students live in the city so sexual assault is connected to just happening in that city
First off many universities give scholarships. Plus many schools with sports have deals with TV and radio where they rake in millions. Also more money from paraphernalia etc. now in the U.S. many students are getting the option to profit iff if name, image and likeness.
Scholarships are a big part of their expenses for sure. But TV deals and money generated from media and bonuses from playoffs are included in this calculation. Despite raking in millions, most D1 University Athletics Departments report losses.
@@TypeAshton Alabama has to make money
As usual a good presentation but this one was a bit fuzzy because of paucity of the compatible data sources. I was hardly surprised about the bureaucracy but did suspect athletic departments overall were not money makers.
I think one needs to segregate Division 1 schools like your alma mater from others. Division 2 and 3 athletic teams really are there for student athletes who will never compete beyond the collegiate level. I donât think there is anything wrong will some subsidization. Over the last few years, many schools have been dropping their non-revenue teams down to club status and cutting funding for them due to rising expenses. Division 1 football and basketball are something else entirely and I suspect, if the detailed data was available, they were self-supporting especially given the TV broadcast revenue.
On one of your earlier videos In this series, I commented that I suspected the costs associated with the multitudes of deputy associate assistant to the vice president of this, that, and the other thing weâre driving lots of increases. The bureaucracy has overtake the mission of the school which is to educate college ready students in various fields. Now, universities have whole organizations to support students that are not college ready (academically unprepared) but think they have a right to a slot because theyâre first generation college students. I wonder how many of those non-college ready students make it to graduation or are just saddled with debt and no degree. I think that is a disservice to those students. Years back, a student in that position would find out quickly after arriving in the fall of freshman year that they were academically unprepared and withdraw before spending time and money on what would be futile quest. I was a first generation college student many years ago and there was nothing made available to me to aid me. I was expected to work or leave. There was no coddling.
One final point on that bloated bureaucracy, during my time at public university, tenured faculty that transitioned to an administrative role were expected to teach at least one section of an academic class. My thermodynamics course was taught by the assistant dean of the graduate school. He was a good professor. I would find it hard to see that happening today.
I think most salaries are generally lower on Germany, especially nowadays when USD is so strong
After watching this. Iâve always known that they over spend on sports and no return on investment for the program. Test the NCAA was making me way for years off the athletes on merchandising like the video games. Year they saw nothing. No idea of the schools saw a share or not. BUT the salary that they pay the coaches is beyond stupid. They should be paid the same as a professor. Not 36 times more. This excess money could be used to offset costs for tuition for in and out of state students. Maybe there should be laws enacted to help curb this. If they want a great program so bad. Have them push the boosters to find the extra salary and supplies they need. Hell Texas A&M had a new stadium built on the back and success of Johnny Manzel with donations and some funding from the school. Sorry but to me higher education is for learning and sports are extra outside of school. The education is more important.
6:43 what are "supples"? silverware for supper?
Ah yeah sorry for the typo.
Regarding professor salary: I think this makes only a small part of the budget, so even a factor of 4 would not explain the total factor 4.
Great video like ever, but you forgot to mention that as a civil servant the healthcare for the Prof. in Germany is also paid by the stat. That means civil servants (Beamte) pay taxes but do not have to pay for healthcare like an employee.
Danke fĂŒr das Video, Ich weis nicht was mich mehr ĂŒberrascht hat , Die campus Polizei, das eigene Kraftwerk, das Sport Coaches , 36 mal mehr verdienen als ein Prof. oder das man 2000$ extra fĂŒr das Sportteam sollen muss. Schöne Werbung fĂŒr Deutsche UniversitĂ€ten hĂ€tte nur noch gefehlt das ihr erwĂ€hnt hĂ€ttet das man hier Bier mit 16 Tricken ( Kaufen) darf.
Schöne GrĂŒĂe aus der nĂ€he von Köln.
WĂŒrde mich mal wider ĂŒber eine folge nur in Deutsch freuen.
Thanks for the video, I don't know what surprised me more, the campus police, their own power plant, the sports coaches, earn 36 times more than a Prof. or that you have to pay 2000$ extra for the sports team. Beautiful advertising for German universities would only have been missing that you would have mentioned that you can buy beer with 16 tricks (buy) here.
Greetings from near Cologne.
I would be happy about a follow only in German.
US cost per credit of teaching salaries has not changed in 50 years at universities. What has changed is the percent the state pays (Boomers got twice as much from the state for college) and how many admin/staff there are (there are way more admin/staff now than 50 years ago).
I know nothing about the German school system/universities. However, I get the impression that they don't have all of the fluff that we do in the US (clubs, people that call alumni begging for money, extra custodians b/c Americans just leave their trash wherever, etc.).
The whole club aspect is much smaller. There are some (and there are even some sports teams), however, universities are part of the community and students often join general clubs (âVereineâ) that cater to their interests. For example, if you want to play football (the international one not the American one đ), youâll join one of many football clubs that are in your community and play against other clubs in your region. This is even part of the normal league system in Germany and while they play in the tenth+ league, they could theoretically be promoted to the Bundesliga one dayâŠ
To put it bluntly:
USA universities are large businesses and businesses are in business to make profits.
Thanks
Wow this is just amazing and I'm short on words of gratitude. Thank you so, so much for all of your support. We sincerely appreciate it.
Jonathans arm in the thumbnail is breaking my brain...
5:45 The US university has 4 admins for each teacher. Germany is not like that. The US famously spends way more on administration.
Isn't t the salary for a German professor also dependent on the years at the university? Or are you just comparing base salaries for people starting the job?
This was long ago, for those starting their position before 2003. They are paid (until today) according to the "C" scale, C2/C3/C4. There is a saying that the current "W" scale means "weniger" (intention was: Wissenschaftler). đ
@@Henning_Rech Germans are poor dude
It was quite interesting to hear about all the numbers and costs especially about American universities. And yes, I have to say that I also couldâve almost sworn that college sport bring in money. I stand corrected!
One thing I didnât hear is the amount of adjuncts American Universities are using. I am teaching as adjunct at Bergen Community College in New Jersey. I wish BCC would open up a full-time teaching position in my department. Instead, BCC uses adjunct for 70% of their teaching needs. Only 30% are full-time professors. At BCC, an adjunct received a little over $2,000 per course. Thereâs a limit of 9 credits (3 courses) an adjunct is allowed to teach. There are no health or other benefits, except for a small retirement contribution. With being able to teach up to 2 summer courses, the maximum number of courses an adjunct can teach per year is 8, a total gross income of $16,000. Of course, using adjunct to teach the majority of the courses the college saves a lot of money on salaries and benefits. It also gives the college flexibility when thereâs a sudden drop in enrollment like it was during the pandemic. But this is not at all good for many of us adjuncts who have to basically work for less than minimum wage without any job security. Do you have any knowledge on how this works in Germany? Are there adjunct professors at all? I donât remember this from my own years studying in Hamburg, Heidelberg, and TĂŒbingen.
Yes, Germany does have adjuncts. When I finished my PhD I was offered an adjunct position at the Uni Freiburg but declined it. Its a LOT of work for not great pay (about 2,000 EUR per course) and since you are a "contracted" employee and not salaried, you have to claim the funds like a self-employed person and seek out medical/health insurance independently.
@@TypeAshton Interesting to know. That sounds similar to the U.S. Do you know what the ration of adjuncts vs fully employed teaching staff is? Is it also as high as 70% adjuncts vs 30% full staff as here at Bergen Community College?
I don't have good statistics on this. I can only speak from personal experience where it seemed like there were a fair amount of adjuncts and/or classes also taught by PhD students and post doctoral faculty who are working on their habilitation. I don't THINK it's as high as 70 percent, but I can't quote a good statistic on this.
@@TypeAshton Itâs probably difficult to come by published statistics. I only know our number because the college president said it in a meeting of adjuncts thank us for our work.
I mean if you have a dedicated police force for the university, it should be safer if they do their job right. On the other hand, if you need it, maybe because it's not safer?. It definitely costs more money to have one than not.
A resort where you have to share a room with a stranger and a bathroom with more
SUmmary : sports counts more than education : the trainers earning 2.54 millions - a professors 128.000 - all clear to me now - thks !
Yea, got a problem
When you compare salaries between Germany and USA, especially salaries of civil servants like Professors, you should compare net income after income tax and social security insurances (pension schemes, health care, care insurance, accident insurance, unemployment insurance) , which includes the difficulty to compare the quality and extend of social security paid by those deductions (or in case of German civil servants not being deducted) between Germans and US Americans.
I would bet, that when you take that into account, the comparable net income of German Professors are higher than those of their US American colleagues. So you should not look at the gross income on the contract, but what actually reaches the bank account of the Professor *_plus_* taking into account what level of social security (pension, health care, unemployment, etc.) they will get through their job.
Yes, true. But its a VERY difficult metric to calibrate. Professors in the US typically also get a pension from the teacher's association, and healthcare is highly dependent on how many "dependents" you have, age, etc.
@@TypeAshton Yes I expected nothing else. How can you compare the German civil servant pension system with the US pension system for a University Professor - which, other than in Germany, might be different from State to State. Or the health care coverage? Or the fact that a German Professor doesn't have to pay for anything for both, while his assistant normally has to pay several hundred Euros for that?
That is it, what makes all the discussions about income of Germans compared to US Americans so difficult, because we are truly comparing apples and oranges here. As I mentioned, only the net income after taxes, pension, health care, etc could give a hint about the reality, but even than we still don't know how the pension or health care or unemployment systems are different to each other in quantity and quality.
@@Dahrenhorst and how much are Germans taxed compared to Americans?
@@TheRockkickass Germany has by far the most complicated tax system in the World, thus this simple question can't be answered equally simply.
First, we distinguish between tax and mandatory (for most) social security premiums - this are explicitly not taxes, but need to be paid just like taxes. People with an income of less than around 85 k annually have to pay into the social security system, people earning more can opt out if they wish (and don't get the benefits in that case) and civil servants can't pay into that system and get even better benefits from the government. This social security benefits include free world class health care, pensions for invalidity or old age, accident insurance while working, care insurance, jobless insurance and services, and some more privileges. The social security payments are around 20% of the gross income for everybody who have contribute, and the employer additionally pays the same as well into that system.
Income taxes among other things pay for the Government, the military, the infrastructure, or the education system (thus free premium universities here). Income taxes are between 0% and 42%. Below an income of 12k annually there is no tax, above that, taxes start with 12% and will gradually increase to 42%. Income above a yearly threshold of approx. 50k will be taxed with 42%. However, there are many, many possibilities to reduce this taxes.
My wife and I have together a yearly income of over 50k, but we don't pay any taxes at all, mainly because we are both severely disabled and profit from lots of tax allowances because of that. Since we don't work, we pay less into the social security system, and this is automatically deducted from our pensions (around 10%), but we have the same benefits as everyone else who is paying the normal rate.
What Americans have to pay for taxes and all those social security services we get with out social security system I don't know much about. What I do know is, that they don't have free quality education and have to pay much, much more than we do to stay healthy or get treated while sick. That a person is heavily indebted after finishing education or can go bankrupt and become homeless because of hospital treatment (or decline treatment because of that risk) is unheard of here.
If Freiburg has a 33:1 student/professor ratio - based on wikipedia - that is more than half of Ludwig Maximillian in Munich (75:1) and most NRW ones in the 100-125:1 range
Woah that's a big difference! Yeah we found the 33:1 ratio on a report done by Reuters on Freiburg. Especially if Freiburg's is lower than most other Universities in Germany, it interesting that this metric isn't as widely published by the University. This is a common metric that recruitment uses in the USA for students.
@@TypeAshton
If you go to the wikipedia page of Ludwig Maximillian in Munich - which I used to use in these discussions as one of the top ranked and largest universities in germany. It has 50k students and on wikipedia sidebar with the quick facts, it says 807 faculty (64:1)
For Freiburg, Wikipedia says 24k students and 438 professors, which is 55:1.
My german alma mater Tubingen has 28k students and 539 professors (52:1)
Where I now live in dĂŒsseldorf it is 34k students with 342 professors making the 100:1 math really easy.
What criteria are used, and how "Privatdozent" or other roles that are not titled "professor" are treated in both systems is always a challenge to figure out
I am sure what faculties there are, and what sort of class sizes are needed for effective learning vary.
The fact that undergrad is not a "major" making up only about half of your total courses - but your path of study making up all of your courses is a key difference - and should you want to change majors, or fields of study 1, 2 or 3 years in - you usually have to start from the beginning again - as recognizing credits from other programs was always very uncommon.
Also - at least in the experiences I know - a typical American thing of completing a bachelor in one field, but then pursuing a masters in something possibly, but not necessarily related is not possible
The University in DĂŒsseldorf abandoned "Lehramt" - because the city and university were too popular. Those moved to nearby Wuppertal and Duisburg-Essen. I had a friend who was 2yrs in to a 3yr german literature bachelor's. My US mind said, complete the bachelor to show proficiency, and ability to complete a degree, and then switch to a Lehramt masters program that builds on the German Literature. At least in NRW - this was not possible - she had to leave DĂŒsseldorf and re-enroll from year one in Wuppertal with hardly any credits able to transfer. Germans do love Parcheesi (Mensch Ărger Dich Nicht) which has that horrible - go back to the start thing.
I did my BA in a smallish highly ranked liberal arts college in the USA, started towards my MA in Germany (Magister at the time) - realized that was a dumb order as a 1-2yr MA program in Philosophy in the USA was going to be more like 3-5yrs in Germany at the time because of what they would not recognize and what requirements they had (Big Latin and Big Greek (each 4-6 semesters)) - ended it - went in to business - and did my MBA in a well ranked program in the Midwest.
I have 3 kids in Germany - lots of in law kids who have studied in Germany....
and my main determinant for whether the USA or Germany is the best place for undergrad for my kids is going to come down to their personalities, how sure they are of what they want to study, and what those programs look like in both places.
My 16yr old makes use of personal interaction with her teachers - and she is not burning for a specific STEM subject....it looks like it will be more liberal arts to being a generalist and then figuring stuff out - the US system, with a campus, and the whole in loco parentis aspects that entails and small student to teacher ratios, and ability to switch majors or focus through 2 full years probably makes the most sense.
The whole "school as center of social and sports life" is also very different, already from high school....the "network" aspect, via alumni, tailgates, fundraising, homecoming etc is very different - and if you go for the US system, probably also a very good idea to spend a few formative career years where that network exists (I didn't).
Germany does not have that much at all. for good or for bad.
The route you used - is the proper one - do the relatively short Masters in the US after bachelor, and come to Germany for the relatively short doctorate (compared to US Phd)
I'm at the ad spot and waiting for how much football coaches are paid.
Ah, there it is. 36x the salary of a professor. This is madness. They're supposed to teach, not provide "bread and games". Where is the American "I don't want to pay for things I'm not going to use" mentality? If you want to go to a spa, go to a spa. Making everyone pay for it is communism! đ