Debating South Africa’s Constitution with Eusebius McKaiser
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2024
- I caught up with Eusebius McKaiser. We debated whether the South African constitution is the optimal vision for South Africa today. We also reflected on the role of Chief Justice in changing times.
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CONTENTS
00:00 Intro
02:23 Framing the debate
07:46 The Constitution’s vision I
12:23 The Constitution’s vision II
20:49 Values in the constitution
34:34 Causal role of the Constitution I
43:40 Causal role of the Constitution II
55:44 The role of Chief Justice
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Credits: Edited by Tsholanang Rapoo
About me: Dr Sizwe Mpofu-Walsh is an author, scholar and founder of the Sizwe Mpofu-Walsh Xperience (SMWX), a digital, youth-centred current affairs platform. He holds a DPhil in International Relations from the University of Oxford and is currently a postdoctoral fellow at the Wits Institute for Social and Economic Research (WiSER).
man, I've just watched like 10 videos of yours back to back, amazing. I've been looking for a channel like this. That actually looks into south african issues in depth, and the fundemental problems of SA. Thank you
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Dignity!!! Freedom!!! Equality!!!
I have always maintained that our Constitution is that of a First world and didn't begin to address our issues. With such a Constitution, South Africa should have also adopted the First World policy. We should have left those who were in power, to remain in power. Negotiations for Blacks and others who were equally marginalized, should have been for:
1. Dignity- to live and lead a dignified life, like those who were privileged to lead such lives.
2. Freedom- to live, move, utilize every area in South Africa freely and at will. No segregation!!!
3. Equality- we should have equal rights like rightful citizens of South Africa.
This would have allowed us to deal with issues as they arise. What actually happened is that, the ANC was handed an "empty" vessel to fill with nothing 🤔. So that every I'll that would arise should be pointed their(ANC) way. We may say whatever we want to say, this Constitution was never friendly nor accommodating to the previously marginalized. We were just robbed in daylight and left singing for our supper. To be honest, I do wish for either of the Political parties that were previously represented in the Apartheid Government and Parliament to return to ruling. Because now, people are more the wiser, we no longer have people in exile, but we are all free to come and go as we please. Also it will free the ANC from the "created guilt" about them being "housed" in Foreign Countries. Asiqaleni kabusha from where we are!!!
You get a like from the channel owner but I have no idea what you’re saying. Could you clarify?
@@BanditZA me too, this confuses me, do you know what we went through to get where we are, it is not what we were hoping for but I don't want to go back, have been working with white people ever since I started working, how horrible they still treat us, how can we give power to people who still don't see us as an equal human being? Did you think before writing this? With people like you, remind me how far we need to go as black people mentally
@@fanamlawuli6761 what I got out of what was said is, things really haven't changed because those that were in power, still are in some way. And the political prisoners that are being held are now being held in other countries.
Very enlightning debate/discussion. I was swayed back and forth because you both have valid points. We just need to be brave and try new stuff for where we are which they never envisioned back then. A failure is not one who trys and fails but s/he who knows that someothing ought to change but never attempts to change anything。
Indeed. We need to have the imagination to question long-held beliefs. 🙂
I absolutely loved this. A coherent, fluent and persuasive discussion. With a sense of elegance as well.
Thanks so much!
So glad this is not split into 2 or more segments. 👍ayeye
Ayeye 😁
This was a very interesting discussion. Thanks for posting it. I always find the nuances and differences in opinion between you and Eusebius interesting. I agree with Eusebius that it is unrealistic to expect the text of the Constitutions to magically fix things and that ire for the Constitutional text would likely be better focused on the more practical ability of the government to deliver on its Constitutional obligations. I suppose that is because I share Eusebius's skepticism that changing the text will have a meaningful impact on the actions of the political and bureaucratic class that often violate the Constitution by doing bad things like the Marikana massacre.
Fair point. We ultimately can’t know what effect a change would have. I think we need both a vigorous government and a discussion about constitutional changes, in parallel. But I accept that constitutional change is a limited instrument.
@SMWX: But, but, but you wrote a whole book about this. You released multiple videos. You interview people who pontificate endlessly about how the Constitution is limited and needs to be changed.
So your stance is not as nuanced as your reply here seems to suggest.
@@BanditZA the Constitution and the government needs to be changed.
The two GOATS of SA Politics in one secession pushing a great debate ................... LOVE IT
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Your presentations are always so impeccable, no I loved this...
Thanks 😊
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Hey Dr Sizwe, intellectually stimulating and intriguing conservation as always!
Btw, just graduated my Master's in Political Studies from NMU last year in December. And m still recommending your channel to all my undergraduate students!
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This was indeed a thought provoking discussion! Enjoyed it immensely and my vocabulary has expanded threefold!
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Thanks Sizwe for sharing all these clips. MHRIP, Back in the 90s, I (and others) used to live for Eusebius column in the weekly London South African Times, it was informative and incisive. Eusebius was many things, an intellectual, a truth seeker and above all, he loved man kind (no pun intended)...I'd like to imagine he would have laughed at that last bit.
Interesting discussion but pretty much what I expected from your guest, but the points needs no academic mind to that the past oppressors got favourable notes in the paper.Then the consequences is the present stagnation,thus the goal is for a free society with individual liberty but all that has alot of vagueness when economic power is still to the few ??? So Mr Kaizer a lot of things always have question marks around certain texts in the paper.
And the LAND seems like something that needs not to be touched, Who got the better deal oligarchs or peasants?
South Africa perfect choas, 1652 the Goodhope castle was constructed. 1913 is the law regarding land claims. We need more debate.
@piepie do you know?
@piepie I hear you, my original response was directed at Land claims and the dates use to identify Landclaim and how it affects the disenfranchised.
@piepie European and Bantu expansion is a not a must myth. Bantu from North, European from South and East. Interesting stuff
the constitution needs to be revisited as the last three years we seen constitution been used to defend elites and rich as indicated by the shiscm between President Zuma and Min Sisulu. Chile after 4 years of struggle is amending the constitution of Pinochet
The best of the best!
Powerful work Fellows
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Danko 🤯🤯, think I'll be digesting for a couple of days.
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I’m still digesting. 😅
Why are constitutions given so much weight when, for the most part, they were written in the past before most of us were around in countries like the United States by the rich and owners of slaves who were writing these documents to protect their properties? Even here in the SADC region were the constitutions in Namibia and South Africa were written in recent history when we were around, the Apartheid leaders negotiated and wrote the constitutions with the elites of SWAPO and South African sponsored political parties and the ANC. And then in both countries these constitutions were said to be the most democratic ones in the world when the organizations of civil society and others were excluded from participation in the writing of the constitutions. Now these documents are discussed as if they are Bibles that are associated with so-called unquestioned Devine inspiration?
I now appreciate better Sizwe's argument that the lack of clear definiton in the preamble and the use vague terms like 'non racialism' but still don't accept his conclusions. First the preamble sets the reasons for adopting this Constitution but it is not the Constitution itself but and important interpretive guide. The second reason is interpretive, the ordinary meaning of a word is provided by its context and its usage by the original users. The word "past" in the preamble cannot be limited to its semantic meaning. Its contents has to be pragmatically enriched with the reason that the Constitutions was adopted in the first place, the time of its adoption and the reason for its adoption, which is common knowledge was colonialism and aparthied. The preamble is therefore an ultimate goal for South Africa but it is the contents of the constitution especially the Bill of Rights are how breaking with the "past" are to be realised. The realising of the goal is for the people to specifically define through their elected representatives. As such the constitution also leaves a lot of power deferred to the people through democratic processes.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I still don’t see the point of eliminating the word apartheid if that is the “past” to which we are referring. Similar interpretive arguments could be made for a different meaning of “past” which is why the ambiguity is a problem for me.
Hi, Sizwe. Have you ever thought of inviting Julius Malema onto your platform? It would make for a riveting discussion indeed.
Definitely! I have tried before and will keep trying. 🙂
Thank you!
@15:33 I think that's the issue. We shouldn't be dependent upon an interpretation one way or another. When the wording is vague the mission can be undermined, coopted and taken over. If you want a Constitution that leans toward the citizens, then it should be worded in such a way with no ambiguity.
Yes!
SMW I judged you wrong South Africa constitution is a negotiation not a sell out but it’s not final, can be amended if democracy exists
A debate with a member of the #ThumaMinaMediaGroup , whose next??? Redi tlabi???🤡🤡🤡
I respect Eusebius views deeply. It’s important that we have debates across viewpoints, rather than just within our own echo chambers. This can only deepen the conversation. 🙂
Am happy the "slogan" AYEYE is back, must say though andiyontsha, am in my 40s already but I like the line "ayeye" I think the Free State Judge President once said it "ayeye" 😄 😀 at one point.
There is a few episodes apho am wondering kuqhubekani kwenzekeni ku "ayeye" 😄 😀
Ayeye will never leave. I still remember when the Free State JP said it. 😁
I am a huge fan of Eusebius McKaiser!!!
eusebius together with lady colonial klerk called Zuma's book "fiction", but never criticised those journalists who composed and benefited from state capture lies books sales, that never made it as sworn affidavits in the commission.
they proudly said Zuma has a house in Dubai next to Mugabe's house, and what's sad is my grandmother still believe that lie.
Zuma owning A house in Dubai, is not the absolute truth!
He and cronies ( The immensely corrupt Guptas) own parts of cities - mansions, apartment blocks, business towers, and islands in Dubai. He bought these with the money earned through corrupt activities (for example, state capture).
Eusebius McKaiser is part of the CR 17 faction
We must not be so quick to brand people. Eusebius is very critical of Ramaphosa. He’s very critical of everyone actually. I believe debates like this are important otherwise we never have other perspectives to consider.
sizwe can we have a part two with gogo
Part 2 is out! Search my channel. 🙂
Very informative that interview was,which is lacking on mainstream media..I personally feel as though,progressive people like you need bigger platforms..thnk u nevertheless Sizwe👊
People should make constitution that reflect their views besides racism or colonisation discrimination but fairness
Language matters. Call it what it is. As I listen I am more convinced that Anti racism and non racialist mean different things.
They certainly do!
the private property clause is a serious impediment to just economic rights.... needs to address other forms of ownership
So you want economic rights and freedoms with no private property?
Good luck with that.
Clueless.
@@mvubu6823 socioeconomic equality. is only possible if All forms of ownership is adressed. Private property on its own çannot bring economic liberation
@@shentenaidoo8920 liberation from who for who?
If you want everyone to be equal, nationalised everything... Then everyone will have nothing.
Currently the state owns all the mineral rights and is a massive land owner along with tribal trust land.
This idea that removing private property rights is some sort of solution is a concept disproved 100 years ago and was paid for by the blood of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS.
It is a disgusting trick of self- annointed intellectuals, who have never built or create anything of actual value in their lives, to tell others how the solution to their problems is to break and remove the wealth of others
The solution of successful economic reform will start with a state that employs competent people who do their job and the don't steal.
At the moment our problem is mass incompetence and extreme criminality in the ruling class and government employment circles.
Sort that out first and you will soon discover other problems start fixing themselves.
@@mvubu6823 hi I think you display a narrow bourgeois attitude..... China has lifted 3 million people out of poverty.. .nationalization is overstated and feared but their numerous countries who have democratic planned economy......as why all should be equal go read the American constitution which rights are ordained and individible
@@shentenaidoo8920 bourgeois?
That's the sort of language only one of the know-nothing intellectuals would use.
Maybe you need to dig a little deeper on China. Maybe appreciate who sent them the money to dog themselves out of the hole their maxist, revolutionary leaders put them in with their failed policies and murderous management practices.
It really pisses me off how seemingly such educated people could know so little outside of what they get spoon fed in their political science and sociology classes.
There hasn't been a job created outside state employment by our create maxist leaders. They know only how to consume. They offer NO value to the country.
personally i feel the more we as a country fail to address the land, economy problems all these gains politicians talk about wont help. a revolution with no direction is closer than we think.
Agreed. That’s my worry.
@@_SMWX you stoke the flames and are afraid of a fire?
Firstly we need to appoint and apply strict control measures by independent trustworthy commissions to enforce ethics, transparency, and doing things legally.
For these top government positions and commissions, People should be appointed on merit ( albeit, white, black, Coloured, mixed race) not the biased, misused, mis-interpreted.. AA … BEE… or ANC cadre policies / systems favouring blacks and ignoring their level of ethics (or the immense lack thereof).
You cannot transfer the economy of this country into the hands of uneducated, inexperienced, prone to corruption agents with a tribal (insular and isolated) narrative.
Appoint people on merit and this country will be able to pull itself up by the boot strings.
Expose and punish the corrupt agents and their cronies - to restore the trust in the legal system which has been lost en masse with corrupt ANC government.
Robben island ( or a similar distant desolate isolated place …far from civilized people ) should be opened again for all those corrupt agents and their cronies. Bring them back from wherever they are hiding in …Dubai… India … and England.
They have stolen from every civil …ethical …tax paying citizen of this country, in particular the poor blacks of the townships who now have it harder than apartheid times.
@@BanditZA … interesting comment and word choice … mmmm 🤨…
Who ARE you?
☕️ ..🫖 ..🧁 … Tea anyone? . Isn’t the weather just lovely… dear!
@@468sed3 what are you looking for? I’m a thinker and philosopher.
I'm convinced Sizwe won this debate.
Sbwl to see your face when you realized you weren't recoding 😂😂😂
It was so bad 😂👀🙈
Enkosi Hlubi !
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The document is too vague and too diplomatic. And has been hailed as one of the best in the world, so that we don't even think about amending it.
Inequality and colonisation should be paid attention to, I do not ANC for the space they occupied, which is negotiation of victims, South Africa did not win Armed struggle, they adapted to reality
I find it very difficult to understand Sizwe. He has this wonderful brain but whenever he speaks, its like there's a disconnect between his very clear intellectual brilliance and what comes out of his mouth. I'm genuinely baffled. At first i thought perhaps because his father is a larger than life character, and perhaps I see him through that lens. But, NO!!!'It has nothing to do with his old man. Perhaps I'm just less of an academic on such topics.
Rest in eternal peace Eusebius 💔