The Problem With Punchline
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- Punchline's outing in DC Comics Knight Terrors highlights many issues the character has suffered from since her inception, as Punchline takes on the internet! The Joker's girlfriend/protégé must take on mean comments and infinite social media scrolling as she battles a zombie Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) and Insomnia. We discuss what works and what doesn't here on Casually Comics!
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0:00 Intro
1:27 Knight Terrors Overview
2:15 Punchline Overview
6:59 Nightmare
14:51 Punchline Falls Apart
27:44 Wrap Up
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Favourite meme go!
Meme that doesn’t exist yet:
You: We haven’t talked about Punchline for a while…
Loyal viewers: Wait for it…… waaaaiit…..
Crazy Nicholas Cage Face! The bottom of your shirt!
Way too many to count
Disappointed subscriber leaves channel after one too many Punchline vids. That's a meme by now, right?
Psyduck checking out Captain Morgan
I legit feel Punchline would work way better as a Batman beyond villain.
A potential historian podcaster of the future who has EXTREME in-depth knowledge of the villains of Gotham and is extremely popular with teens, to where even Terry gets research off her work, who in reality is a massive Joker fan girl who DESPISES the Jokerz and she hunts and kills them and even villains posing as those of old, wanting them to get the legacy, but not repeat them. Be the punchline, not the set up. Also she would be her own brand of a villain in the vein of the Joker, but not a Jokerz herself.
I'd make her the leader of the Jokerz but that's just me. She turned them from a group of thugs to a far more organized. She has a mission and the brain of the Joker but lack the full insanity.
Honestly, Tynion's entire Batman run would have been much better as a Batman Beyond story line. All these villains that are building on the legacy of older villains just like how Terry is building on the legacy of Batman. Instead, Tynion gave us a bunch of characters that severed the exact same purpose as other characters and really did nothing to develop them.
Yes!! I hope someone does something like this for her in the future!
I like this idea!
I was thinking she would be a good henchmen, working with the joker and exploring how his influences affect an impressionable generation.
Maybe work with how the internet can be an easy way to push his views on chaos, explore power dynamics and how Joker grooms disciples both metaphorically and literally, or maybe get into the obsessive stalker angle and have her want to literally be the joker.
I feel like she needs time and setup with a strong lead. Sort of like a joke, set ups building into a "punchline"
Damn. It's crazy when a random YT commenter can be like "just move this over here" and they can massively fix a problem with modern DC.
RIP Arleen Sorkin.😢
Ohnowhaaaaaaaattttt…? Well that whomps!
WHAT!?!? I hadn't heard that.
Farewell our favorite Harley. Rest in peace, power, and contentment.
She was and still is the best Harley, and no one will ever be able to take her place. Rest in peace, Arleen.
❤️🖤❤️🖤
Punchline is anemic compared to Harley, especially today. R.I.P. Arleen. 😔
I love how Sasha's Punchline videos see so much potential in the character, but the comics keep stalling or backtracking before they can follow through on any of that. It's like an epic length "When are they going to get to the fireworks factory!?"
I feel like Punchline's character lacks a bit of characterization, she seems to kind of just exist as a sarcastic meta-4 character that lacks some in-universe introspect and too focused on being a social media reference tool.
It is kinda nice to see speculation about how a comic could be better as opposed to just tearing bad comics apart. It's way harder to build something.
Seems like a tragic case of a fan that's smarter than the creators lol
Punchline is an amazing concept, but the writers are so blind with what to do with her. They need to find a rich way to communicate her character. It's so clear that they're unsure of her basic motivations and arch, they just put her in random situations and make her come out on top all the time. I'm so interested in her character I wish they'd put more care in her story.
They could kind of save their throw if that actually was her flaw to her agenda in-universe, that its unclear and vague, or limited to just what Punchline seems to think in the moment, but has no prolonged sequence of plans. That could be her weakness that they can explore, to maybe figure out through deconstructing the actual writing holes to her. I feel like the writers are a bit too caught up in trying to make her seem cool or cool to themselves (and she is) but she lacks characterization beyond what shes promoted to represent. I'm at least glad to hear they removed her from trying to be the Joker's actual girlfriend. I think she works better as a wannabe, and not actually tied to him. I also think she should be a villain for Nightwing Batgirl and Harley more specifically to them. Feels like thats a tier that works for her.
@@GeteMachineI also agree she works better as a wannabe. That makes sense of a lot of aspects, but they need to not make her OP. I think her dynamic with the Joker could still be interesting in this context too, but should tease the idea that he does not really respect her. Perhaps in some sense for him, but it's not what normal people would recognise as respect/affection etc. He should not see her as an equal, though she fantasises about being so
I love her but they seem unsure what to do with her. 1st joker war, then a 15 month run as a back up in joker, having her randomly join the league of super villains, then Gotham game..just give her a series
@@mattmc5069 I agree, I'd rather see her figure shit out by herself first then interact with other characters
Current writers are dog 💩
Your Punchline videos have me convinced that the only reason DC hasn't attempted you to hire you freelance for editing her books is it would expose the total lack of competence of their editorial staff.
But for real though, Sasha has proved multiple times over that she’d be a better editor than most of the DC and Marvel editorial staff.
@@benjohnson9224 There seems to be a fear to do their job (assuming they're actually up to the task) because... they are worried about hurting the writers feelings?
Which backfires tremendously when their professional output is out paced by middling fan fic.
You care about their feelings, help them put out a story worth the price of admission, that they can be proud of the quality of their output, not just the quantity.
Is anyone surprised that the "ignore the haters" plot is in heavy circulation right now?
Definitely feel like Punchline's image and brand were so deliberate that they should feel a bit more important to her than mean comments. She's never seemed to care what people think as long as they are thinking about her, so disconnecting someone like that from all the clout she'd been chasing for herself and taking her out of the spotlight would be more of a nightmare, in my opinion. Have everyone in the nightmare write her off as a Joker fangirl, have her sub numbers drop to like 20, and make her "iconic" look commonplace - even put in a nightmare Harley wearing a red version of the Punchline fit, to really play up that "new/knock-off Harley Quinn" angle that they used to try and sell the character, in the first place.
Yeah, I think Punchline is so in control of her image that I think her biggest nightmare would be losing control of her own narrative. Having everyone see her for who she really is and be unimpressed would really get under her skin. Her greatest fear seems to be being a nobody.
Honestly, there are so many cases of CZcamsrs, or even celebrities like that, that inspiring her character from those cases, and making a critique, or whatever they want to do with her would be very easy.
On a super serious note, I would genuinely love to read a Sasha Wood Punchline story. A lot of those ideas are so relatable and terrifying especially lately.
so true
How about just any Sasha Wood comic story?
Definitely! Sasha had a better-constructed storyline with compelling themes proposed. DC's story takes the path of least resistance and so damn boring.
Agreed
Good point!
You’re right, it would have been a much more traumatic nightmare for Punchline if it was no one recognizing her or even acknowledging anything she does. The worst thing to happen to an attention hog is to not have attention.
Isn't that already the case? Like, most people don't even know she exists.
It comes off as if they were softballing a lot of Punchlines REAL flaws by making her 'issues' everyone eles's fault in a way. From how you described her character, Punchline is essentially the very definition of terminally online herself yet a lot of the story seems to be mocking internet critiques OF her and/or the comic than having that inward focus on Punchline coming to term with her own fears herself. Granted, this is part of the reason why I;m very wary on how writers handle the negative aspects of social media because even with younger writers, it's still easy to mess up because they never seem to really focus on the core problems and turn it back to it being the fault of the reader/user/whatever.
Can I say that all of this was done better in the intro episode for Livewire in DC Super Hero Girls because at the end of the day, Leslie had her 'power' taken away when her violent actions towards Wondy ended up LOSING her a lot of support because they saw how terrible she was in REAL LIFE beating up Wonder Woman and people got SCARED of her. Her 'nightmare' in that scenario was no longer having the audience she needed to embarrass and combat others, making it easier for HER to take them down and as a result she lost support and popularity with people while the heroes gained more respect just by being themselves and doing good things vs Leslie's sensationalism jeering.
Livewire and Punchline seem to share a LOT in common in how they manipulate and gain sympathy through media and I would have thought that Punchline's nightmare would be losing that type of power. Without the power of the masses themselves, she has nothing and that's what should have been explored. NOT the idea that the hate comments are from 'ew mean nerds' but she is turned away by REGULAR PEOPLE because those are the type of people she would try to recruit; the normal, the ones who feel they aren't special and the like. People who at the end of the day would IGNORE HER at any other moment. Her nightmare should have been the idea of being faced with a situation where people have NO USE FOR HER, where they are stronger than her to push back her manipulation, or even worse; where people like that want to HELP HER and she's faced with the reality that *SHE* is the one who is very flawed, very wrong and people have found that out and instead of hate her, they PITY HER. If there's anything obsessed internet people hate more than reactionary replies to their comments, it's pity, it's apathy, it's not getting any sort of engagement whatsoever.
Punchline's entire life DEPENDS on what she can create from her online profile; her nightmare should have been finding out that she can't do it anymore, that her online persona has no power towards anyone and doesn't even get hate comments. Her nightmare should have been being faced with the idea that she is *NORMAL* and just one face of billions online, lost in the noise with no power over anyone which comes as an even bigger hit because if she has no power ONLINE, what does that say about her in REAL LIFE if she has no contacts to meet with on a physical level because at the end of the day, even if you're a nobody online as long as you have SOMEONE to talk to IN REAL LIFE then you are someone to someone else. But if Punchline doesn't even have that, what is she? She would have to ask herself this in her own nightmare and if she can't answer it, she's been broken.
I'm guessing that, for comic book creators, vitriolic fan complaints make up an outsized proportion of their online experience.
You I like. This right here ^
This is very good. You so nailed a very glaring flaw
I too saw a lot of Livewire in Punchline, it's just how DC as a whole been written in this jarring fashion where you can too easily get lost with going on. The irony is a lot of the writers hate online discourse because fans can and do flame their inconsisant natures and call out their screw ups. Basically THEY'RE what you just said is Punchline's greatest fear being a nobody, somebody people outright don't want to be around. It's clicking she's them but Punchline is still cool.
@@ravenwilder4099 So lack of expereince is no excuse.
I think her fear should be that her agitation works, it's just ineffectual. Like the kind of topsy-turvy world where something like Jan 6 happens according to her plans, and she finds the people there are just wandering around and being generally cordial.
The original plan was for Babs to be Oracle instead of Batgirl in these issues. But the creators did their research (apparently not where it truly counted) and realized that Punchline has never encountered Babs in her Oracle persona. So they kept her as Batgirl.
That's a stupid reason. Surely she's at least HEARD of Oracle and they could have used the fact she's never seen her in person to go really techno-eldritch with the nightmare design.
It’d be a interesting concept for punchline to be unaware or denying that she’s afraid of Barbra Gordon in some way or anything that could build on like if the consequences of her actions will hit her to the full
It was so sad to hear that Arleen Sorkin passed away. I am still in disbelief. I can hardly begin to comprehend that we lost Kevin not too long ago and now we've lost another legend. Many people played Harley Quinn since Arleen but Arleen IS Harley Quinn and always will be. I basically grew up always hearing Arleen's voice and similar with Kevin now that she's gone it's like a part of me has died too. May she rest in peace.
Oh no, how sad. I will always treasure her performances. Peace.
IMO Punchline would work better if she were formed as a Joker protege that missed the point of his joke. Her growth from finding out she was wrong and more clearly establishing her own agenda would make for a great story arc. Great commentary as always Sasha.
Punchline's nightmare should've been a world where everyone referred to her in the past tense and never used her name or her image.
Also why didn't they just use real anti-Punchline tweets or reddit messages and blur the names?
@@Gangerworld
Because that would have been too smart for this writer.
By the sound of it, I think a better nightmare for Punchline would have been a series of video exposes showing footage of Alexis Kaye's life that Punchline wouldn't want getting out because it not only wrecks her image but takes away her control of the narrative. It could show that she was already a terminally online bully before she ever met the Joker, or maybe that she is so obsessed with her image because she had a proton-influencer parent, or *something* personal that doesn't fit her narrative of doing it because of the Joker's "message"
And I agree with your ideas for better comments from the Hate Comment section.
I really enjoyed this one. The speculative rewrite was super strong here. You probably understand the environment the character comes from better than anyone writing her today.
Exactly. I feel she could/should consult for DC on the character.
DC needs to hire you. Also I think Batman should defeat her with nothing but a room with mean comments about her.
While sipping on some Haterade
Nah, the best way for Batman to beat her would be to show one of her videos with 0 comments and no views. That would break her immediately
They'd be wasting her time. DC's a zombie of a company.
At this point in universe someone would have made a five hour long expose on every single facet of Punchline's life and to have her run into strangers that casually know more about her than her 'friends' or even (especially given how recklessly she plays with chemicals) her and see how that impacts her would be pretty interesting. Heck, given her chemical abuse and consequent hallucinations, she could be using some of her internet stuff to keep her past straight and to have someone mess with that (Barbara maybe although it's pretty ethically dubious so maybe a greyer character) to get her to think something different happened in her past so she messes up whatever evil plan she has and then loses some more of her already limited sanity.
This comment makes me think of 'Perfect Blue', where the main character at one point is reading a website about herself and trusts the things written are what she was doing over her own confused memory. It was a strong idea then (back when dial-up was still a novelty), but feels it would be stronger now (when people put far more of their lives online, with varying degrees of accuracy and honesty)
They should hire you either as a writer or consultant for this character. I think you hit the nail on the head with identifying that she needed more time to develop her motives.
I would have loved for her to look at the one that was like "more like four or five-faced" and for her thoughtbox to literally respond with "haha so true bestie". She would be interesting if she was leveraging her following in her favor and was willing to admit out loud that she was using parasocial dynamics to manipulate her audience into sympathizing with her cause, and therefore Joker's cause. If she really became to Joker what Barbara is (as Oracle) to Batman, it and she could really mean something.
You make Punchline far more interesting that she is.
The idea of a murderous drug lord's worst nightmare being a comment saying "Show feet" is hilarious.
Wouldn't it be more interesting if some of her fans and critics had decided to re-write or re-interpret her history and motives and take control of her entire narrative? An entire world of created fictive media that made her question who she actually was? Multiple origin stories? Making her into an anti-hero? Placing her into something like reality loops where she has to finally decide whether or not she wants to have an identity? I could see a lot of Livewire appearances, since LW could control the Internet. She could even interview her own fans, and have them explain what her motives might be. Or, worst of all, she could discover that she was basically ignored by almost everyone, and almost all of the comments and analyses come from sock puppet bots. Some of which she had created in a fugue. In any case, it seems like this issue is a missed bag of opportunities to explore her, or set any useful tone for her future. DC's staff and writers should be required to view every episode of "The Prisoner" before they are allowed to write an arc or suggest a single comic plot about identity, society and information.
Episode 57 of Sasha caring more about the books she’s reading than the actual writers.
Damn, I’d read something written by Sasha. I know ideas are cheap, and the execution is where the real difficulty lies, but she rattled off like 20 decent pitches for storylines and explorations of characters in a 30min video.
Punchline had the most ridiculous half-life of a character I’ve ever seen. Like a purple and green firework just “whoosh, bang, gone”.
DC should give Sasha a crack at writing Punchline honestly 😂
Indeed. All of her adjustments sounds way better than what they actually wrote tbh
Punchline: *Destroys Barbara's column by impaling her*
Joker: "THAT'S MY PUDDIN!!!" 😍
Harley: "You never called me that, Mr J..." 😢
The way you talk about the problem with the message being applied to punchline is the way I felt about a lot of how the villains were used in the current / krakoan era of the x-men. The older more experienced team member holding back information and plotting in a way that can leave people feeling used makes for good tension but when that person is Apocalypse who has tried to commit genocide repeatedly it makes everyone look dumb for trusting them in the first place. Same with give Gorgon the heroic death that turns the tide in X of Swords it’s kind of undercut by the fact he’s a nazi general who in the last event (secret empire) he was in the war room making plans and decisions related to mass murder and genocide and for both of them their redemption came about by everyone got a free pardon for showing up on the X-mens new island nation. It just eats at you when a good idea falls flat when it’s given to the wrong character.
OR the whole fact that Captain Krakoa himself MIGHT BE that Nazi Steve Rogers which isn't gonna go well for the X-Men at all. Honestly it isn't going so well because people saw throuugh the gimmick already. Yet this is the problem with that X story EVERYTHING is canon to that story which is a big "Ohh no" Hickman's X-men requires a total Marvel reboot because nobody can go back to "normal" after it's all done.
Far too many people don't bother to think beyond the initial story idea to consider the consequences or implications of the story idea.
This is a great analysis, it's pretty baffling that most media is still so ignorant of internet culture/issues beyond surface level news
Ignorance and fear. The internet is taking away their audience. TV is dead, movies are dying, it makes sense they try to downplay the internet as only being for losers.
Don't apologize for being so passionate! The passion is what made this one of my favourite videos.
Yeah it would be much better if the online hate actually...mattered lol. "Jokers biggest pick me" is a great one, people completely misunderstanding her "motives" and making their own story for her, halloween costume and makeup tutorials based on her, 2 hour long deep commentary videos about her, people "analyzing her body language", all kinds of stuff all over the internet that would probably actually play in to her warped sense of identity
It just sounds like the problem with Punchline is that she is meant to be all about people spending too much time on the internet, but they simply don't know how to actually write that.
Or the writers don't spend time in the internet
I love that Barbara currently has the same suit she used in her first appearances during the 60s. There's nothing like the good old classics 😎
You managed to seamlessly work Hal Jordan into a Punchline video of all things.... well done, well done. 👏👏
2:11 I’m surprised you didn’t say “we need some set up before the punchline”, it was right there lol
I hope we get some more of her, she could improve, but we need some more pure evil Batman villainess
I'd like to see a story where maybe Punchline has to contend with her image or brand being usurped by unscrupulous companies looking to make a quick buck. That sort of thing already exists irl and I imagine it's even worse in Gotham. So she could learn that there's maybe several makeup products with her name on them, or a while new Fall line of Punchline-inspired outfits and she realizes that as her whole persona can be preyed upon by bigger more amoral companies.
It would tie in well to her obsession with control and controlling her image to work for her, and she'd realize that as much a big deal she thinks she is, she can't totally quash industries looking to capitalize on what's in the moment.
Hell, it could even make her relevance issues worse if the products start to drop in terms of sales, driving her to think she's starting to fall from the public.
You really should write your own Punchline story. You see more potential in her than her creators do
Her nightmare should've been the internet seeing straight through her persona, every comment perfectly structured to get underneath her skin and any manipulation or attempt to spin things her way fails, which'd indirectly flesh out her character by showing what pushes her buttons and how she reacts to it
It's funny cause I just finished watching a " The Problem With" video over at Comicstorian and now here I ame clicking on another one and I'm all for it.
It’s gonna be interesting when she will start being used in other media outside of the comics.
A live action depiction of her would be interesting.
Don't think she'll be used for a while, since Harley's popularity doesn't seem to be waning any time soon
@@djpegao You are right, if it appears in other media, everyone will think the same as when it was announced that it would eventually become a clone of Harley. Until I saw this video, I was not interested in the character because I was sure that by now it would be a clone of Harley, which is a heroin and hates the joker.
@@djpegao Harley's a headline character now, so the niche of "prominent named Joker goon" is wide open.
I think the bigger question is if adaptations will keep her how she is or change her to fit the mold of "prominent named Joker goon."
@@djpegao If the Gotham show was still a thing, they'd have brought her in for sure.
Thank you Sasha, a love of comics shines through all of your posts. I wasn't aware of Punchline until now but she seems to be an interesting character with depth and potential for future development. Not knowing her well but from what I understand of her character, I think her biggest Night Terror would to be ignored or not noticed. A seeker for attention that no-one pays attention to would be caught in her own personal nightmare.
Exactly this!
Why aren't there other Punchlines- an entire community of evil influencers, and an examination of what keeps her from being a flavor of the moment?
Or her horror at realizing her power is fleeting, and how far she will go to keep control.. or simply tear down others?
Or maybe she becomes useful as a way for the authorities to demonize online communities, and they don't care how dangerous that makes her, because getting eyes on her means getting eyes on them. And she can choose whether to play into that, or reject it, and always for her own selfish reasons underneath.
Will there be “internet gas” in the nightmare? Stay tuned.. 😅
That time Marvel created a "hero" who was less useful than a teenager with a smartphone.
I think you have a lot of valid points about Punchline. I like that she's built up as a major adversary for Oracle because every superhero should have at least one signature villain, so I give her that. As a story hyping her, the actual telling of the story is "meh". There is so much lost opportunity to give her actual depth, but I guess that in itself is a commentary the author chooses to make about internet personalities being shallow, just as the authors depict any negative comments about Punchline (or their own work) as being generic hate to be derided or ignored.
I saw the title and assumed this was a collab with Comicstorian.
It can't be easy being a new original character. Glad Punchline is still around
the long term effects of what kids are exposed to on the internet aren't too obvious yet, but she could be a perfect outlet to showcase the 'what ifs' of constantly consuming dark and disturbing content online.
The girls in the slender man case are an example. If punchline was already mentally Ill and chronically online as a child and then had the encounter with the joker he could be her 'slenderman' in a sense.
It also doesnt read like the writers here have ever been exposed to what the internet can hold in terms of online hate it can get really nasty, these were very surface level insults
Seriously, she's basically a troll. When did she find the time to train herself to be a good enough fighter to take on the Bat Family?
Well, Joker's neve been much of a fighter either, outside of exactly one episode of The Batman (the big jaw one) and the DLC for Arkham Asylum.
@@fluidthought42 Yeah, but in any case he's a psychotic genius with years of experience under his belt. As near as I can tell, Punchline's just some college kid who decided to be a supervillain and inexplicably entered the scene as a world class martial artist capable of fighting the god damn Batman almost to a standstill. That is nuts.
@@JoeEnglandShow
Joker's first appearance was as a psychopathic genius mastermind without any past to really justify his ability. Lex Luthor didn't need to job for decades as a goon for a mobster to also be a genius mastermind. The missing ingredient is being interesting. Sometimes that's backstory, sometimes it's just pure gimmick, and yet other times it's pure stage presence and design. Punchline has... well she makes The Trickster look like an A-Lister but has an outsized publicity rivaling that of Wolverine. Perhaps her concept was considered to be very marketable to audiences at one point but they've kept fumbling the bag ever since.
I find it odd that a character named Punchline doesn't have more comedy in it, even if it is just a deconstruction of comedic situations within her villainy.
I really like punchline, she’s a really cool concept but it’s just so weird to create this sidekick character that never spends any time around their villain
I'm actually not engaging with the greater content of this video, not because it's bad--it's always great--but I just wanted to add: I came across you on Top 10 Nerd and thought it was hilarious that you laughed at your own jokes or at the context, so I really enjoy how accessible you make things and always watch your videos. So thanks.
The generic Stepford Wife nightmare that you covered last month for... Poison Ivy maybe?
I think it was Poison Ivy.
Whoever it was, who she was didn't play into the deepest fear shtick of the whole nightmare event.
Seems a perfect match for Punchline, could even strip much of the horrific imagery entirely to help paint her as a villain: that leading an anonymous, humble existence raising a family is her deepest fear is a bad look and a bad look is good when you're writing a villain.
Yes it was Poison ivy
Really? That's Ivy's deepest fear? Not, I dunno a planet that could no longer support plant life anywhere due to ecological armageddon? Like a mad max world where plants were now a thing of myth and legend, and she's left wandering a wasteland in a doomed search for the last remaining bit of nature, finding a dead tree in a fouled pool of water where bodies are dumped, bodies of the people she's killed perhaps? Yknow, she's not the solution she's part of the problem, and maybe you could twist in her soft spot for kids in there (which is an aspect of Ivy I always found interesting, even if it's not written consistently).
An apprentice of the Joker who becomes so popular, that she can blow up a bunch of children & get a pass 🤔 No Way That Could EVER Happen 🤨🙄🖖🏾
So 1st off this was a fun dip into the Punchline pool, Sasha again, fantastic commentary.
My ultimate nightmare for Punchline would’ve been less “Everybody talks about her, and some of it’s bad!” and more her getting a “Who?” response, as if she was being scrubbed from the interweb is her own personal demon.
Honestly I'd love to see Punchline be a villain for Tim. Theres some fun parallels to play with like them both tracking down their idols when they were young, Tim being a bit more tech and data based. Tim and Punchline both effectively filling someone elses shoes (Jason/Dick and Harley) but growing beyond them. I think it's an interesting idea
I swear notifications on youtube are terrible. i get them about a third of the time. Sorry i needed to rant for a moment. Always enjoy your videos.
love how passionate you got over this - your commentary on this issue made realize how much potential punchline has as a character
I really love all the subtle changes you suggest. I know hindset is 2020 but Casually comics still clearly has an understanding and love for the characters that does make me wish we could somehow try again with their changes
At least it's fun to imagine these changes :)
DC needed to create this character since *Harley* is basically a hero now
It's frustrating that so many comics and media in general don't know how to write about digital issues.
I would have made her meet online Punchline, the persona that the internet has made of her and force her to realize the difference between the hype and the person.
I always love your ideas for the character and the plot that you come up way more than the original. I'd read your version of Punchline.
I think she needs a second writing past and I’m waiting for/hoping an animated series or movie to adapt and refine her like the DCAU did for a lot of characters. She has tremendous potential and I think hindsight would give the right creative team the ability to make her shine.
This type of story reminds me that comic deadlines and the constant grind of releasing books week after week don't often allow creators much time to put together a good story, especially when it also has to tie into an event.
I haven’t read the nightwing nightmare issues yet, but I did read an issue from the 90s run where he had a scarecrow hallucination about his insecurities and abstract fears. I think a really interesting video would be comparing that with his knight terror issues
Thanks as always for the great content, Sasha!!
I always love your measured takes with polite crticism.
You are a refreshing, calm spring breeze on this scorched wasteland that is the internet.❤
I love your punchline videos, it's so cool to be able to track her progress in such a comprehensive way 😊
I thank you for your passionate presentation. Hearing about this character who has only existed in this time of social media from a person who has a great understanding of the social media landscape greatly enhances my understanding of what makes Punchline tick. I'm old and don't read many new comics anymore so it's nice to see that the passion I had for the characters of my generation still exists in at least one reader in this modern generation.
I love every idea you had here. Makes me think how good Punchline would be as an Oracle villain specifically - and that would tie in well with Babs’ past with the Joker - which would make a nice Babs nightmare issue.
I think the biggest reason we get this facile interpretation of the internet is because the people writing it aren’t “fans”. They’re writing on the side of being a creator who gets attacked and who sees “obsession” (collecting, writing fanfic, etc) as a means to wealth but not to seriousness. They can’t critique a space or provide nuance when they have such a slanted viewpoint.
Anyway, again, 100% love the ideas and critique expressed here! I love Punchline for all the potential you noted.
Punchline will continue to "have potential" for the next 4 years just like she has for years prior to this point, and will continue to have the same problems. She is a villain whom is unbothered, doesn't care, does whatever she wants, and never really loses. How easily they had her overcome everything Harper Row is where the problem is. Saying that only Barbara Gordon as Oracle could be her rival or stop her, basically means she's up there at the top of the list of Batman threats, and all she is, is someone whom is habitually online and a former college student.
She is a college student with no previous training and she
1) Nearly killed Harley Quinn after dodging bullets
2) Figured out Joker's toxins
3) Held her own in a 2v1 fight against Dick and Babs
4) Got the drop on Batman IN HIS OWN BATCAVE and nearly killed him
Those 4 things being accomplished by someone who to that point was just a college student whom was obsessed with the Joker.
She then goes on to
5) Take the whole Royal Flush Gang
6) Take over BlackGate
7) Outsmart Harper Row(one of the established smartest members of the Bat Family and one of the best tech wizards) at EVERY single turn.
These things are all the things YOU DO NOT give to a newcomer, LET ALONE one whose only experience is just being an angsty college student whom was obsessed with the Joker. That plus the fact outside of the ONE TIME with Batman she hasn't lost, every single thing that has meant to make her fail she has found a way out of, and she failed upwards and everything always went "according to her plan". She doesn't HAVE A Bat character she's connected to, because they haven't established anyone that is even on her level outside of Batman, and EVEN THEN she had almost nearly killed him if Harley didn't intervene.
There's no reason to get invested in Punchline because whatever mistakes she makes, won't matter, whenever she slightly falters, she'll come out on top, and unless it's Batman, she'll never lose, she'll never get her comeuppance, she'll never watch her plans blow up in her face and have to deal with failure, she'll never get proven that she isn't always the smartest person in the room. And that makes her not an interesting villain, and near impossible to get invested in her stories because nothing ever comes across as a challenge. Harper Row would have been the perfect rival for her, but they had her embarrass Harper at every turn and never get caught despite constantly boasting about her plans to Harper whom IS PLUGGED IN both tech wise and to things on the internet. That and they wrote Harper as less capable, and less competent JUST so they could have Punchline always come out on top against her. On top of this, she experiments on homeless people and has killed CHILDREN.. but they want her to be RELATABLE... and thus never looking weak for any significant length of time that wasn't by her design, and never losing. THIS kind of story writing is why it's impossible to get invested in Punchline as a character. She's booked to never really lose, so there's no point in investing in anything that may challenge her or whomever is trying to stop her. Because ultimately they won't, not really.
And that's boring. It's not "You're such a great heel, we love to hate you" heat, she's generating by this point, it's "go away" heat.
Exactly. Even the Joker wouldn't win in an actual fight against any of the Batfamily, he might outsmart them from time to time but he won't win the tussles. Hell I think Alfred could probably give him a run for his money!
I think part of the problem is that even other characters that manged to pull off big intros like Bane, they took their time to introduce him and for his plot to develop, and then wrote it so it took a monumental amount of things working together in a just barely believable way for a very dramatic moment. And even then Bane himself has never outlived that moment, and interest in him fell off when it doesn't have to do with "his moment". Afterwards, Bane doesn't win all the time because that'd be forced and boring. Punchline then comes along in a way that is both unbelievably uninteresting and uninterestingly unbelievable. There's many established female villains I think could do with more limelight and development, but they focus on Punchline instead. To extend your wrestling metaphor, it's like when you can tell Vince McMahon has a fave guy he's pushing hard even though nobody else really thinks much of him and are instead looking at the weirdos with fun personalities, which has become more and more common these days.
You hit the mail on the coffin , I agree with every point you made
You're asking for levels of nuance that the modern comic industry is simply incapable of.
Honestly, your videos are the best Punchline content, including her debut issue 😅
It seems whenever a new character is introduced the goal is to make them marketable instead of telling a truly great story that explores their full potential.
It doesn't just seem that way. It IS that way. Mainstream comics are completely corporate these days.
The sub is long overdue. I’ve been binging (and loving your videos) for the past month and they’re all so great. The energy you brought to this video was so much fun, you had so many great points and such great insight! Lol I’m trying so hard to not sound like a bot.
Also, the surprised pikachu face I was making every time you described the problems with the “always-online” people. Minus the toxic posting, I kept saying “hey that’s me! I also have those problems”
love the video but also your hair is my new hair goals, literally the coolest ever
Loved this video. watching it I went through so many rabbit holes in my head of how punchline could be rewritten to better serve her concept. I definitely agree that she has potential and it seems like none of the writers really know exactly what to do with her since they're not as connected to or don't have as good of an understanding of the internet which is seemingly such a big part of her character.
They could've done a thing where punchline became a sort of fan of the joker through internet forums of joker fans (because that would for sure be a thing if the joker was real) and she kind of became radicalized through that. She herself forms a sort of parasocial relationship with joker, becoming obsessed with his ideologies and identifying with them.
I think something that could be interesting is if she made her debut as Punchline to the world through something similiar to tiktok but instead of trying to play up her innocent she fully feeds into the persona. I feel like it would be interesting if the social media platform was a more "neutral" one where anyone, regardless of their views and actions, is allowed a platform. this could lead to a talking point on how people so often talk about how cancel culture is bad and how things like twitter are politically biased and shouldn't be able to ban people. this platform can be a response to that, showing a world where the most popular social media platform(s) allow "true free speech" and whether that's worth how destructive it is in the wrong hands (in this case, punchline's).
A combination of her radicalized joker-esc ideology and the very obvious fact that she's a young attractive lady with a "cool" look, she can amass a huge following of young people who are also radicalized. I think this could lead into so many interesting ideas. Discussions about the male gaze and how women online are often objectified and over-sexualized, but how maybe if punchline intentional feeds into that, she can amass a much bigger audience. or how if someone is trendy and easy to copy in terms of aesthetics. For her, all press would probably be good press. The more she can get people talking about her, the better. Punchline's power comes from how much she really understands the internet and she "plays the system" to gain the most influence over a very impressionable audience.
Her fear/weakness can then come from not really knowing where the character begins and ends. her real identity and online persona begin to flood into each other. Since she's so used to changing who she is to fit trends she starts to truly value the opinions of these online people and she loses herself. She goes from being completely in control of her image and her followers to being unsure whether it's now the other way around. this can also be combined with a "never meet your heroes" type deal, where she finally meets the joker and becomes his right hand and realizes that maybe her interpretation of his ideology was wrong. Maybe he's more chaotic/self serving than she thought. Maybe she actually starts developing feelings for him and he doesn't reciprocate (though that might step too much into harley territory). Maybe she's bothered by the obvious power dynamic, with his age gap and the fact that she looks up to him. Maybe she just doesn't wanna be defined by him and realizes she has her own thing going on. Could be a lot of things.
Obviously these are just very rough ideas, but being familiar with internet culture(s) and the like really goes a long way in how you see a character like this. I'm gen Z so i think having that perspective on influencers and social media and all that really brings out just how much potential a character like Punchline has. Anyway, this fun to brainstorm about. Great video!
I appreciate your resuscitation of one of my favorite memes: the dramatic prairie dog (aka dramatic chipmunk). The comeback begins!
Is it wrong to say I thoroughly enjoy how passionate you are here? I didn't even notice the length of the video. Great job. 🤙
Wow!! One of the best analysis I have ever heard. Hope DC sees this and hires you as a consultant!!!
Don't sweat the twitch. Part of why I watch this channel is the enthusiasm, obsession, and thoughtfulness. Love what you're doing, even if I'm not as excited about the character. 😉
This is a magnificent analysis! Thoroughly enjoyed this!
You are one of my favorite people on youtube... I enjoyed it as always. And I like your take, on this.
I think a cool nightmare for her would have been a world she was treated as being irrelevant. Like she would do these unhinged things and no one would care. All the other villain and heros would dismiss her as unimportant and not worth their time. And as the story went on she would to do more and more outlandish acts to try and get attention but the more she did the less and less everyone would notice her, until at the end no one can even see her and no matter what she does they just walk right by her w/o even acknowledging she is even there.
Loved this one! Seriously, great job!
For Knight Terrors Punchline 1, I assume that her nightmare involves her being afraid of everyone not caring for her because she’s desperate for attention and that she wants to become the next Joker by becoming the Queen of Crime.
After this, I assume that other writers and editors decided not to do anything because fans dislike her and that she’s useless. Also, it makes sense for Punchline to encounter a nightmare version of Harley Quinn and not Barbra Gordon (in which it’s in this comic because Punchline was inspired by the Joker while Barbara Gordon was shot by the Joker) because Harley Quinn is the opposite of Punchline.
For Knight Terrors Punchline 2, it is interesting that Punchline was able to overcome her fear by destroying a robot version of Barbara Gordon to wake herself up. Also, I was right that Punchline’s fears involve her being of afraid of everyone not caring for her because she’s desperate for attention.
your investment in this character is honestly inspiring, I'm adding your interpretation of her to my personal brain version of batman canon frfr. amazing video by the ways, keep up the good work!
You gave this story far more thought than Lore ever did. Lore got the assignment and as this generation of writers does, gave it the most superficial look focused entriely on their world view and their "feelings". Which is why this came off as sophmoric instead of a deep character study the way you did. Suffice to say your version is far more interesting, thought provoking and staying within character.
Plus don't forget that in their warped world view Punchline is at worst a sympatheic character and at worst their view of a heroic character. It's the same mentality that keeps trying to make Harley Qinnn a hero while conviently forgetting things she's done like killing kids by blowing up their game consoles.
Love your analyses. Get passionate! Get ranty! I'm here for it!
Never apologize for getting passionate about a subject! Those are the best videos!
if punchline does a ukulele apology I’d maybe show more interest
There are a lots of different ways this could be written. Most Bat-villains personify a specific criminal psychology: Two Face as split personality for instance.
I am not sure what Punchline’s deal is:
Is she a drug-addled dealer?
A narcissist manipulator like Manson?
A nihilistic cult leader?
It would be relatively easy to nail down her primal fear if we could nail down her criminal archetype.
Well maybe all of the above? Like the Manson Family was not _not_ culty or was known for being straightedge. But then she wouldn't be out in the streets personally doing "badass" things by herself and she wouldn't be a "cool lone wolf who doesn't play by the rules of society".
DC wants her to be a power fantasy, but their obsession with that is interfering with their characterization of her as a villain.
I have definitely spent a large amount of time over the years listening to you care a lot about Punchline and it makes me happy.
As someone who only vaguely follows DC, and was kind of curious about Punchline, I found this video to be astute and helpful. Thanks.
Haha, I actually like your talking speed! I usually have to watch CZcams videos at 2X speed because I think most people talk too slow.... I only have to watch your videos at 1.5X 😂
You should write a Punchline story yourself and submit it to DC. You have so many interesting ideas about that character in particular that I agree would work very well.
I dont get why villains just cant be villains. Also love the hair color here, its so beautiful!
Black-white morality is seem as stupid/childish, people trying to be "deep", the writer having effed morals...
Really great video. Your analysis of punchline is consistently on point
I always enjoy your appreciation of Punchline videos.
You do such a good job of picking apart why this stuff doesn’t work, without getting so nasty or weird with it that it muddles the point. It seems like you genuinely want this stuff to succeed and are sad it isn’t, rather than cheering for the downfall. I appreciate that.
That and the genuine love of the silver age keeps me coming back !
I thought this was comicstorian at first with the problem with title lol
I enjoyed this video/discussion! I thought you fully flushed out your opinions and logic here. You always seem to do this, which may be the core value of your videos. And a lot of good points were made in this one.
Also, good job on the title. If the title had been something like "Review of [Comic's Title], some people may not have liked the discussion part as much, feeling its not what they wanted when they clicked the link.
As soon as I read Knight Terrors: Punchline, I knew you'd have things to say and you did not disappoint. It is a bit weird that given the opportunity to finally delve into her psyche, make her vulnerable and show her worst fears... they went with 'a mean comment about her hair being fake'... OK, bold choice.
I'm still interested in Punchline and I've been following her story as best as I can, but it's kind of weird how they've chosen the unapologetically psychotic mass murdering crime lord to be the face of this 'don't listen to the haters' narrative they've got going on.
Thanks for another insightful, intelligent and well-balanced review. I swear, you've got an objectively better understanding of internet culture than anyone else I know.
For me and my knowledge of Punchline I would either make her fear her being replaced by the Joker or her being redeemed and joining the Bat-Family. I don't have Cronenbergian dreams, and find it generally hacky when others do it, so would rather go with a much more normal story with too much happening too quickly and the dream logic where everything just seems normal.
Regarding her relationship with the Joker, I agree. She made a great deal of herself being a superior replacement to Harley, and Punchline believes she's an equal to Joker. So, the reality that he could replace her at the drop of a hat any time, and will never really see her as an equal, should be deeply scary to her. It hurts her pride and ego.
I thought of a plot where she tries to inspire new villains, but instead her manipulations get so convoluted she inspires a new generation of heroes to rise up instead. Heroes who don't even understand or who never received her nihilistic message and instead work to better society and to fight for justice. And because Punchline's message gets lost in the shuffle, Punchline's influence and clout also is at question or possibly ignored.
I feel like she's just a character written by people who have no real understanding of internet culture beyond surface level, so they can't say anything deep, and don't want to.