Cardioid Subs Explained For Normal Audio People
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
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It’s time to bring some clarity to this term “cardioid subs”. Although we do need to know HOW to deploy them, we often skip the WHAT and WHY first. Before we get out our audio analyzers and measurement microphones we’ve got to understand a cardioid sub array’s purpose, key benefits, and sneaky caveats.
We'll answer:
- What key benefits can you expect from a cardioid setup
- When is it a BAD idea to deploy a cardioid sub rig
- How to know if your cardioid setup is working - Hudba
Wow I am really impressed with your video explaining cardioid subwoofer setups. First time I have seen a video from you. Good speed & it felt like you got to the point without all the “fluff” which only waists time. I never knew what a cardioid subwoofer setup was all about but I feel comfortable now if someone were to ask me what it is.
Though I doubt that question will ever be asked of me…..haha.
Thanks for the feedback, Tim!
Michael strikes again with another great video! Hats off to you Sir!
Thank you so much!
Today I checked this QSC cardioid sub with Genelecs 8020 monitors indoors. The positioning takes a lot of place. The speaker front opening was 1,25 from the front wall and pushed my listening position almost into the center of the room.
I will give it another try on an outdoor setup with KS-Digital D-80. This could be nice for electronic jam sessions.
Excellent Video, explains a lot and i'm glad you address the "samll setups - 2 subs, etc". Quick question if it can be answered, I have a Soundcraft Ui24r and 2 FBT Subline 15SA and want to deploy in the stated setup. Can i do 2 AUX feed to the subs and then setup the delay and polarity on the AUX feeds of the Ui24r to the speakers to get the desired output. I'll be trying it out anyways as soon as I get a chance at a venue, don't have the space at home. Much thanks again for the continued great videos on Sound 🙂
The d&b Y series subwoofers feature cardioid characteristics. As far as I know they are 15" subs with a 12" membrane in the back for the rear cancellation. These need the d&b dsp power amps… altogether not exactly inexpensive and not affordable for many of us, but they are very good.
Hi Micheal! Just to let you know I'm going to be citing this video as a practical example of a Olson-style 'gradient loudspeaker', I'm writing my acoustics dissertation on directional loudspeaker designs and this vid is a perfect explaination of its topic. Keep it up, Thanks!
That's way cool! Please send me a copy of the paper once you've got it put together.
how far would an inverted gradient subwoofer array need to be from a "rear" boundary in order for the pattern to properly develop without boundary interference?
I make private parties with friends and over the years I collected a bunch of 12" subwoofers. Inspired by your video I tested CAS for the first time in my life and I was blown away ...but only when I was at the correct side of the subwoofers. 😁 We managed to get a full 12dB difference on our cheapo level meter and also the personal experience was like night and day. Big Thanks from me and also from all our neighbours!
I didn't calculate much btw but just tested out the best settings. Interestingly in the end I didn't change the level of the rear-facing sub neither to it being louder or more quiet because this gave me worse results.
You're very welcome! Isn't it surreal to experience the level drop in the rear for the first time?
Well it was a greatly informative and enjoyable video. Thanks a lot !
Subscribed
Glad to hear that. Thank you so much!
i have 8 QSC KW181, so what is the proper set up to use them all in the center of the stage on the floor? Reduce the bass on the back?
I really enjoyed this presentation. i learnt a lot and also refreshing things I knew. I finally realised "cardioid" means "heart"... im assuming like "cardiac". glad I clicked this!
new subscriber :)
Yup! I totally should have made that explicit, but yes, totally comes from "heart". Glad you liked the video!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio i realised as you were saying it and I couldn't believe I hadn't made the connection before.Very informative!
@@reddaB Thank you so much!
is it possible to do an horizontal inverted gradient array with double 18 subs, with 2 types of cabinets and drivers?
thanx a lot for you content
Just bought a pair of bassboss vs21's and I'm wondering what the best way of setting them up is... I specifically care about 50 Hz and below, especially 30-40. I want the crowd to feel as much low bass as possible and reject behind to some degree. They have built in cardioid in a stacked orientation, but I dont know if I can put a 4 ft stack in fron of the DJ booth... Curious how these patterns work with low low bass
Thanks in advance. great videos.
Hi, can we achieve cardioid pattern WITHOUT having cardioid subs? Like with "cheap" subs (MSR800w for example), playing only with subs placement? Or I would have to buy cardioid subs? Thank you for your help!
Can you setup two separate subs as a dipole, and if so, what’s the best way? Combining with dipole planar speakers.
Hey, so I want to put under my stage… our stage is open underneath… meaning there is air and room to breath do you think it will work?
Thanks for useful knowledge.
You're very welcome!
Does the berringer x32 rack mixer have the capability to set up cardio’s subs? We use 4 dual 18” subs.
My stage is placed on a concrete pedesta and I only can place two subs in front of the concrete wall. What settings should I use? Should I use cardiod inline, inverted or just place them normally together in the center? Is there a distance from the concrete wall that could make it work ?
For a cardioid sub, which is better, sealed sub or ported?
Michael.. could you kindly go over key words for people who are new including..Offset, Cancellation, Wavelengths, etc
Excellent video! Subscribed. Was wondering, when you use the button on the back of the sub, to let it know it's facing toward the stage, do you still have to set any parameters or are they fixed? If they're fixed, do you know what the delay times are? I'm already assuming the phase gets reversed yes? This is excellent stuff to be making vids for! Thanks🤘
Great questions! If there's a single "cardioid" button on an active sub (much like a QSC KS118), it engages fix parameter processing. It adds a small delay and inverts polarity of that sub.
You can get out your own measurement system and measure for yourself the changes. Put the mic on the ground 6ft in front of the sub, take a measurement with no processing. Then engage the cardioid processing and see what happens.
By the way, this stage have a wood front or I guess if you can call it solid front
I have 2 RCF 9006 dual 18”’s and I was wondering If you lose any of the 6db overall spl boost you get by stacking the two when you do a cardioid or end fire setup
The "exact" loss ultimately depends on the amount of diffraction that occurs around that specific cabinet and which setup you end up going with, but a good general rule of thumb is that you will get +3dB summation instead of +6dB.
I have two QSC KS118's. For stacking, does is matter if they're stacked upright or stacked sideways? I've seen it both ways but I'd prefer sideways so the stack will be shorter. The look is important for me as I'm a wedding DJ. I'm going to try side by side under my booth but the trick on that is I usually have a gear rack under there and some storage.
You can do either or! Stacking them one on top of the other gets you better rejection in the rear, but side by side still gets good results. I'd be careful putting them under a table or stage, though. That will hurt the rejection performance. If it's a smaller booth it shouldn't be too big of a deal.
Great info! Thank you so much! We currently have 4 subs under a stage. What set up would you recommend to reduce the low end on the stage and max projection towards the audience with the 4 subs under the stage?
When your subs are under the stage the cardioid pattern breaks up and doesn't work. So, if you're keeping them under the stage there's really nothing you can do to reduce the low end coming up onto the stage.
#1 ports and speakers should be facing the audience... #2 boxes should be at the very front of the stage #3 if possible the sub boxes should not be making physical contact with the stage, there should be seperation between the two, or at least have some soft foam in between (no fire hazard here, be smart).
17:46 Once I saw a sound engineer connecting a raw sub speaker to the underneath of the stage while using a cardioid setup... fking genious. I can only guess that he was using some crappy cheap-ass sub speaker and amplifier just to provide the rumble the musicians wanted.
So I have three pairs of Labhorn subwoofers which are directional by design. From the cones to the mouth of the enclosure, is 11.5 feet. With three pairs, I’ve considered taking two of them and setting them into a cardioid patter but my situation is unique.
Any guidance?
It's hard to say without knowing the specific coverage shape of that box, but I'm going to lean towards a cardioid setup of any kind not working out. It's the overlap between the boxes where the magic happens. If the energy is steered, then you won't have overlap, thus not making the unique phase recipe in the rear of cardioid rig do its thing.
Great!
What setup would you recomend for 4 single 18" horn loaded subs?
Thank you!
Depends on your audience shape and staging requirements. I'd check out this video - czcams.com/video/Q4ny703u-ks/video.html
Hi Michael,
I can see 2 subs config for cardioid setups in your video but the manuals for my subs says I need at least 3 boxes to have a proper configuration. My subs are RCF 8006 and I can't use end firing as there ain't enough spaces between stage and audience.
Three boxes is ideal for setup RCF wants you to go for, but you can "roll your own" cardioid setup by having the boxes on separate outputs and applying your delay/polarity processing. There's a ton of ways to make a cardioid shape from a variable amount of subs, just depends on the tools you have.
Thank you for this! Cleared a lot of questions up. My employer is having me install three subs as a cluster in a new venue sound system. Thinking of trying an inverted gradient. Since looks are a consideration here, as the system is installed, do you think merely flipping the phase of the center sub would be sufficient? It seems to me like it would work, maybe with some adjustment in spacing left and right?
The center sub being reversed is for creating a physical offset between the front facing and rear facing drivers.
Inverting the polarity on the center sub without doing the physical offset or delay line doesn't make the whole "recipe" happen for that setup to work correctly.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Got it. Thanks!
Thanks for all the great videos!
Are those AHM units a good option for system processors? I've been considering using one bc of all the I/O it has at the cost. Maybe the downsides would be no option for FIR filters and the AD/DA conversion time?
You're very welcome!
I haven't (yet) got my hands on one, but I've had a great demo from the leading expert on the product from A&H and a systems engineer I really trust, Michael Lawrence, personally owns an AHM-64 and uses it on gigs. You're right in that it doesn't have FIR capabilities, but it's a TON of IO and other processing for an incredible price point. If more SE gigs keep growing for me I will likely end up buying on, if that tells you anything!
Most manufacturers have the FIR processing built into the self-powered speaker (like the RCF HDL6-A, which I use all the time) or they're built into the amps. Given that, you can still put the AHM-32 in front of the amps OR the self-powered speakers and use it as your main processor, even if whatever rig you're working with has other ways to adjust EQ, level, delay, etc.
I don't know for sure the roundtrip conversion time on the unit. It's FGPA and 96k, so it's gotta be pretty darn quick, right?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio that's great, I didn't know he used one!
I imagine the conversion is pretty quick. I currently use a dbx Venu360 most the time. I know there's mixed feelings on those, but it works for what I need. That to say, the time in it is like 2.5ms I think.
Thanks for your thoughts! I've been considering it and this really helps!
@@caleb-falk You're very welcome!
A&H has the M-Q series of expansion cards that fit both the SQ and AHM systems. E.g. they offer a 32x32 Dante card. However, DA/AD conversion time usually is faster than the lowest Dante latency. I think the SQ has a round-trip latency of 0,7msec and I'd expect the same from the AHM.
Note that many less-expensive FIR filter systems may pile up latency, e.g. the t.racks FIR DSP speaker controller can easily add up 10msec of latency when using FIR. I'd rather not have FIR then.
In my small personal rig I have (6) RCF HDL 6-a and (2) RCF 8004-AS. How familiar are you with the "Cardioid" button on the subs? Does this automatically process the phase and then all we would have to do is just set the delay and placement? Just curious if you ever worked with these subs. I know you worked with the HDL 6-a before from your other videos. Thanks in advance and I love your videos! Great information and your full of knowledge and a great teacher as well!
Hey, David! Great question here. I've never used the 8004-AS subs, but I do know what their cardioid processing does. The user manual recommends placing the subs in an inverted gradient configuration (3 cabinets next to each other, with the middle one being reversed and facing backwards). These can either be in a horizontal line or a vertical stack. The cardioid button on the 8004-AS adds some delay and a polarity inversion to that specific sub to complete the recipe for an inverted gradient cardioid setup. It helps free up some processing channels!
My tutorial on that setup is here: czcams.com/video/ecOLyJpuqcE/video.html
Awesome, Thanks for the info!
@@ddengle You got it!
Hey howzit going. I've noticed that the Yamaha subwoofer DXS15mkII has a key to change it into cardioid function. Am I able to use only one sub box in a cardioid setup or need at least 2? Tks
I'm honestly not sure with that box. I tried to find the manual on Yamaha's website, but came up short. My leaning is the latter option.
Hi Michael,
So i do a lot of underground raves outside in the woods. Usually we tun two tops, like 12's and for subs two 18's usually mid-tier gear like electro-voice..
Anyway I would love to always use cardioid on the subs because its very hard for me as a dj to hear me cued up tracks since the bass is so intense right next to me.
I have a party indoors in a couple of weeks. The room is nicely treated acoustically but I would love to run cardioide. Look I don't have the tools or knowledge to run processing and look at chart results. I would be basically just use my ears when I set up and soundcheck.
What would you recommend. The room is a big square, perhaps 20x15 meters. Expected amount of people like 80.
Do I run two subs coupled with cardioid mode and two speakers on Stands?
This is super interesting. I'm a drummer and from the camp that loves the low end on stage BUT, if it will cause problems I'd rather just run a Buttkicker on my drum throne with in ears.
I have the EV ETX 15sp, and EV recommends stacked configuration. Will it work just as well if the speakers were side-by-side with one speaker facing backwards? Thanks for the great info!
It won't be quite as effective, but it'll work!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thank you!
You said cardioid won’t work under a stage, but then you quickly referred to the front stage wall and the rear stage wall. We’re on a portable stage which means no walls front or rear (well the wall of the building is about 8 feet behind the stage). Are you sure they won’t work under any stages, even portable like ours? (In the end, I didn’t position our 4 subs (KS118’s) in a cardioid, but rather spaced about 2 feet apart under mid front of stage.)
Sorry for my lack of clarity. You can place a cardioid sub array 3-4ft and great in front of a stage that has an open front and still get good results.
A cardioid sub array will not work properly under a stage. You'll still get sound out in the audience, but you will not get the rejection in the rear.
Good info. I wouldn't underestimate the value and efficiency of using purpose built Cardioid subs if this is important to you. Much simpler, quick setup/tear down, requires less space/power and very consistent results plus it may even cost less as you don't need extra boxes and amp channels. I use D&B Audiotechnik B4 Cardioid subs and am extremely satisfied with their plug and play performance and ease of setup compared to building an array. Not going to compete with McCarthy array in a huge venue but great for many venues where we mortals live 🙂
That's a good word and great point. I'm not regularly working with native cardioid subs very often, so didn't come to mind. But you're right, sometimes it's nice to not have to roll your own setup!
How can I get a diy soulutiin of cardiod bass for my home stereo channel music
I'm not much of DIY guy when it comes to speakers. Wish I could help more!
I'm new to it ,,,do 2 subs with no processing(cardiod) have more
SPL than 2subs doing cardiod
But the cardiod subs only have the advantage of coverage ,,,by getting low spl than without processed
You are correct! You will get more total SPL out of two subs sat side by side vs a cardioid configuration. That's one of the tradeoffs, for sure. You usually don't see more than a 3dB delta between the two, though. So, just depends on how much you NEED that extra SPL.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thnx,is it valid for all type of cardiod sub arrays
@@MichaelCurtisAudio This is something I was interested in too. So, the total SPL measured all around the subs will be the same or slightly higher for non-cardioid, but the cardioid puts way more volume forward? So, some of the cancellation in this situation would be sound that is just disappearing? Seems like a very good tradeoff. I"m assuming that the amount of "cancelled" sound as a percentage of total sound is smaller and smaller the more subs you incorporate into your cardioid setup?
We run four qsc e 118 subs on a single crown xti 6002 amp. Is there anyway that we can do this with our setup within our amp?
You could run two subs off channel 1, two subs off channel 2, then apply the output delay and polarity inversion processing to the subs on the second channel. Pretty sure the XTi 6002 has that DSP capability.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio right now we just align them evenly spaced 6 feet across (after watching your four sub setup video). Is there anything different we would need to do as far as positioning? I probably need to watch that one again. Thank you for making great content!!
@@tucansam3523 If they're evenly spaced 6ft apart that will give you quite the buildup in the middle and it will be weak on the sides. The goal would be to match the coverage shape to your audience shape.
What type of subwoofer is best for this setup?thanks❤🙏
There's lots of great options out there. Honestly anything will work that's not "bottom shelf" gear.
@@MichaelCurtisAudioDo I absolutely need a sub with a "cardioid" button/function? Or I can play with placement setup and still get a cardioid pattern with "regular" subs (no cardioid "button")
Hey Michael , Can I Do Cardioid Mode With A (QSC KW 181 ) And ( QSC KS 118 ) ?
You sure can. Their phase responses are close enough for it to work. Just make sure and level match them.
Thank You ! One Last Question .
Do You Recommend A Stereo Or Mono Set Up For Dj’ing ?
@@TopShelfFamily Stereo!
Hello Michael, great channel !
I am a mixing engineer and amateur room acoustic designer, although I would say I had a few successful projects... I'm interested, do you or anyone tried to apply cardiod subs setup in the studio environment ? I know some manufacturers like Kii, Dutch & Dutch claims their bass is cardiod... Is it possible at all to setup with couple subwoofers ? It could make some SBIR reflections easier to battle with.
Thanks
Great question here. Active cardioid sub arrays do not work in studio environments since they're so close to boundaries (the walls). Active setups need space around them to work properly.
I'm betting the brands you mentioned use a passive cardioid topology which is less sensitive to its environment affecting its polar pattern.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Hi Michael ! Honestly not really sure about the technology inside Kii, Dutch & Dutch etc...
What is interesting that Dutch & Dutch monitors have two woofers at the backside of the speaker, operating only bellow 100hz.
They say this:
"Inspired by the work of the late speaker designer Roy Allison, the 8c is designed to leverage Boundary Coupling. Boundary Coupled Bass (BCB) offers three main advantages:
-Boundary coupling avoids the destructive interference between the speaker’s direct sound and the boundary reflection.
-Low-frequency headroom is increased by up to 6 dB.
-Increased directivity in the bass, for a good directivity match between the Boundary Coupled Bass and the cardioid midrange, which takes over above 100 Hz."
EDIT: Seems that Kii Threes use the same tech, dual woofers at the back side firing the sub 100hz low end... I think this all has to do with eliminating front wall SBIR when the front wall boundary is close...
This somehow aligns with my dual soobwoofer experiments... I found out repeatedly in 3 different rooms that I'm getting the flattest low end response at the listening position by placing the front firing subs to face the front wall, away from the listening position. I think the reason for that is eliminating the front wall SBIR by placing the low end source basically an inch from the boundary...
Thank you for your great content !
A MUCH better solution will be having "Real" 1/4 wave horn loaded subs. they are 10 times more efficient that the box subs with a hole in them (reflex boxes) with better transient response.....
To each their own. I think each topology has their strengths, but horn load isn't the only way to go in my opinion.
One caveat omitted here that I think warrants discussion is lobes. Cardioid arrays do not null all frequencies equally or uniformly. Similarly they do not sum them uniformly either. Any prediction software will show you the lobing as you look at individual sine frequencies instead of broad spectrum pink noise. You REALLY need to be aware of this when designing sub arrays, especially for permanent installations, and the results are not very intuitive.
Great point. That's why I prefer inline gradient because it has the most broadband rejection in the rear and most consistent coverage pattern in the front.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I did an installation in Dubai, where I flew 2 sub arrays per side with the idea of steering the low end down to the Center of the dancefloor. Worked a treat... except that a huge summation was happening around 50ish Hz, about 60ft behind the array right in the power alley, but about 30ft up, on the 3rd floor, exactly where the most expensive hotel room was. I literally shook a vase off a table in the room. Had to go back to the drawing board and re hang it.
BTW, I found your channel from the open sound meter video. I'd never even heard of it before, long time Smaart user, even longer time ears user hahaha. Cheers for the interesting content 🙏
@@mobilephone4045 Thanks a ton!
@@mobilephone4045 That's crazy! Oh the joys of integratino.
I only wish someone would try to relate this to HiFi, and more towards frequencies above the sub region. I suspect in home audio, you'll get by nicely with corner subs, but it would be great to have main speakers free of front wall SBIR, say above just under a 100 Hz or so and all the way up to a waveguided tweeter.
I tend to find PA people sensible where the HiFi industry is more, ehh, greedy.
Yes, that would be nice! Seems like you're only option without any fancy DSP is to mount them in the wall.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio You think so? I was hoping for some solid theoretical foundations for DIY'ing along the lines of the Dutch&Dutch of the Kii or similar. DSP is a given, more or less any way you want to go about it, though. But sub in room? The answer appears to be snuggling up to the boundaries. I'd really love to see something cardioid from 80 or so, and up. Getting the listening position away from the walls is easier than the speakers.
@@thomaslutro5560 I'm very comfortable with achieving cardioid setups for low frequencies, but not so much when it comes to mids on up to the tweeter. I know the diffraction characteristics are much different because of the shorter wavelength and it requires multiple drivers within the same enclosure to approach any native cardioid setup.
The fundamentals are the same, but how those are accomplished are very different. My studio speakers are currently snugged up against the front wall due to the very reasons you mentioned - BUT, a cardioid sub setup that I described in my video would fall apart because of the front wall reflections.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thanks. I see application will be so different it takes an almost entirely new skill set going from PA to HiFi.
I only wish the mainstream HiFi industry would approach room interactions based on more proper studying than they do.
I actually have speakers aiming for dardioid in the mid to treble by using reistive venting on the cabinet sides, and using the mid cone as a waveguide (Gradient Revolution). There are others doing similar stuff, like Amphion (both Finnish brands). These differ in the bass though, Gradient with dipole and Amphion with straight up omni.
I like a somewhat dry room interaction, giving articulation and clarity uncommon in HiFi. This is difficult in smaller rooms, especially when used for more than music.
So I keep asking google about cardioids. 🙂
(I do realise being in a minority...)
@@thomaslutro5560 Yes, you're totally right. That sounds like a cool design you have going!
great
Thanks, Olivier!
holy cardioid. you are not from Mars, you are from Pluto. happy sun conjunction 1/18/23 thanks for the revelation 🙏🔈🔉🔊(pluto symbol)
You got it!
Does it put out face humping bass? Does it NOT sound like shit? mission accomplished... Almost every PA speaker you buy is going to be "Cardioid", or "shoots out the front", as anything else would be inefficient, and not make sense.
I guess we can disagree here on how physics works.
I watch your videos and I understand 90% of what you do OK maybe only 80% and I understand that you are a sound guru but I will tell you this. If you think this video is for a beginner soundman or somebody that is new in the business and that they will be able to understand it, that just means you’ve been doing the professional stuff so long you can’t remember what it was to be a beginner. First you’re showing graphs and software which 100% of them won’t have a second you’re still talking terminologies they have no idea what you are talking about. Until you can actually eliminate your professionalism enough so you can think like a beginner , this video has done no justice for a new sound person as you have the title saying it is. You actually have no clue so just stick to your other videos. The examples you gave we’re closer to what a beginner would need but if you go back and listen to what you’re saying as you show the examples a normal sound person would have no clue. It’s like you’re speaking a different language with pictures. Now with that being said I’m sure you’re worse than a show is probably better than my best sounding show of course I do not have quite the equipment that you have access too Or your vast knowledge. I do watch a lot of your videos as you have helpful information but I don’t line arrays and the bigger shows I do are only about 3000 people. So nobody get your panties in a wad I’m just saying This guy has so much snow is now dumd him up and up for a beginner lol.
Thanks for the feedback.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio No problem and believe it or not it wasn’t meant to be negative. I love your videos and I have learned from them. But I think that you’re so smart that you can’t be un smart enough to explain it to a beginner lol if that makes any sense lol
@@rusinjeff5959 It does! It's hard to figure out with my audience where everyone is "starting from". It may pay off to do an "absolutely beginner" series just to get everyone on the same page.
And I’ll show you another example I’m sure you’re probably familiar with Drew Brasher videos on the M 32/X 32 and he is so knowledgeable on them that unfortunately he doesn’t think so much like somebody trying to learn, it’s like he talks as he’s thinking he’s teaching but The way he explains it is confusing because the beginner just doesn’t have that knowledge if that makes sense.
His latest videos are much better I am constantly watching videos including yours to try to better myself and or see if there’s something I missed along the way lol
It's tough listening to this since so much isn't content but the repetition of what is promised... like, please tell us, instead of just repeating the concept. Once is enough, omg
Question please can you use the cardoid settings with just one subwoofer or you need 2
If a single active subwoofer enclosure is built with two or three woofers in it it can be cardioid standalone, or if the enclosure is passive cardioid. The manufacturer will tell you if it's capable of that. Otherwise you'll need to subs.
Tu me saoules à parler sans arrêt !
Vous n'êtes pas obligé de regarder mes vidéos.