Mixing In A Small Room | The Biggest Problem...
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- čas přidán 24. 08. 2022
- One of the biggest problems of mixing or listening to music in a small room is room modes... These resonant frequencies can cause VERY severe imbalances in the frequency response of your sound system! So, it's important to know how they work and how to mitigate the effects.
Full Post (Audio University Website): audiouniversityonline.com/roo...
Acoustic Treatment (GIK Acoustics): www.gikacoustics.com/ref/121/
Room Mode Calculator: amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=...
The Schroeder Frequency: www.soundandvision.com/conten...
Dr. Dan Russell's Animations: www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/demo...
Acoustic Treatment Help:
- Sweetwater: imp.i114863.net/jWLq6P
- GIK Acoustics: geni.us/7kbrj
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I don't produce music or even play a instrument, but you videos have been invaluable in setting up my Home Theater right.
Astonishingly well presented information on a topic that probably gets overlooked. Well done.
Thanks, Jo!
Dan Russell is the man! So happy you referenced his work.
You make the complicated topics understandable.
Excellent! I don't currently have an application for this knowledge, but one of my favourite things is the discovery of a well-presented and well-written resource that I can file away for future use.
Thanks for the explanation. I was wondering why when I stepped out onto my balcony I could clearly and loudly hear the bass notes, but when I got into my room I could barely hear a thing and it sounded relatively quiet. I knew bass waves were long, just didn't really realize how long they actually were.
this is definitely the best channel ive found to learn acoustics.
Thanks, Horror Wagen! Glad you’re enjoying the videos.
Excellent, thank you - and important to point out that the middle and 1/4 points are inadvisable as listening points too! Wes Lachot's 38% rule for listening position is a useful guidline.
Thanks, Valley Wood Studio!
But every location is a 1/4 point of one specific frequency ?
Absolutely brilliant video, Kyle! I’m so in awe of your information and delivery! 👌🔥
Thanks, Ed!
Thank you! A complicated topic addressed thoughtfully and thoroughly 🙏
This makes me want to ditch my mcintosh , magnepans and subs and get headphones.
I wouldn’t go that far! But I see what you’re saying! Thanks for watching.
I call dibs!
@@doublet147 I have some videos on my channel of my audio junk :)
I would Love to have that speaker and amp combo! I'll take them off your hands if you TRULY want to get rid of them, lol!
But in all seriousness, you can literally drive yourself nuts trying to "sound treat" your room to eliminate ALL of its problems and resonance nodes, and I've tried so much over the decades that I've finally just all but given up on ever having a "perfect" listening room, because you really CAN'T, so instead of driving yourself crazy and spending so much time on that, just do the basics, of at least a good speaker placement and setup, and have a rather "soft" room like with carpet and basic wall treatments for early reflection reduction, and then have multiple subs in different locations throughout the room to even out the bass, and try NOT to have a "hard" room with lots of tile, etc., and then just don't nitpick the rest, instead just sit back in the sweet spot, relax, and actually enjoy your system and actually listen to your preferred music and let it bring happiness and joy into your life, instead of fretting about perfection, because there's no such thing anyway!
Great Info. This is what I’m often try to explain to other producers / musicians.
I've recently been playing with a chladni plate and learning about 3d harmonics and this video really nicely summed up so much stuff i've been trying to wrap my head around, great video!
Glad to help! This video may be helpful too: czcams.com/video/GLnrysQ1Erg/video.html
This channel is brilliant! Thank you so much for sharing your incredible wealth of valuable knowledge with us. Thank you, my friend. 😊🙏🏻
Glad to help, Peter! Thanks for watching.
This is the second video from you that I've learned so much. I subscribed as a result. Thx
Glad to help! Thanks for subscribing.
My goodness, your teaching and tutorial are very understandable..God bless you so from
Glad to help! Thanks for watching.
This video should be a required watch for anyone setting up a home studio/theater!
Thank you for explanation of room modes.
The 80 hz demonstration at the beginning clarified the issue.
Glad to hear that! Thanks for watching.
Weird.... I couldn't hear any difference.
Up till recently, I thought my bandmate had bought some crappy used studio monitors with no bass and distortion at low volumes, and was pretty sure one had a bad driver. I took them home to investigate the bad driver (indeed one is bad) and then took over a pair of my great-sounding studio monitors for the next practice...much to my surprise, my great-sounding monitors now sounded terrible and were lacking the great low-end response I was used to at home. Now I know there are some serious issues with the room, I was able to make it a bit better by changing speaker placement, but still, if I stand off to the side of the listening position the bass returns, so now it's time for some room treatments! Good info!
Thank you, I appreciate your work.
Thanks for watching and commenting, NB 122!
Excellent presentation, well edited and concise
Glad you liked it! Thank you.
That was such a simple and effective way to demonstrate that phenomenon
Good work
Thanks!
Great visualisation! You forgot to mention one of the best ways to treat low frequency modes: the double bass array with 4 subwoofers. Done correctly, the mirrored subs on the rear cealing absorbe the sound waves of the two front subs in a way that the back ceiling nearly disappears acoustically. Of course this addresse not every mode problem but one of the most annoying.
What an acoustics expert. Far beyond my knowledge and understanding…
as always, best explanation with super great visualization. big thanks, Kyle. 👍👍
I’m glad you enjoyed this one, Dewa! Thank you.
@@AudioUniversity my pleasure
Wow. You got a subscriber with this one. Incredibly useful details.
Welcome aboard, Eric! Thanks!
I had so many problems caused because of the acoustics of my rain that I have switched to mixing only in headphones. It was the best simplest choice :)
I knew what room nodes were but the demonstration you did was a perfect example. I'm in the process of trying to resolve a null I have at 50-70hz, if I move my desk about 2ft to the left the null goes away but then I get a null at 100-120hz. It's like fighting a losing battle.
Just use a speaker calibration EQ in your listening position.
@@leaveitorsinkit242 - That doesn’t work for nodes. It’s literally the entire point of this video. Nodes care canceled-out frequencies so it doesn’t matter how much you turn up (compensate with EQ).
@@Nightowl427272 Nothing nulls perfectly in the real world so if you have a sizeable dip at 100hz (or whatever frequency) just boost it.
@@leaveitorsinkit242 - Really. So it’s that simple huh? Gee, why didn’t the rest of us think of that?
Ok dude…you just keep on a doin’ you. Lol
@@Nightowl427272People stick to mockery when they don’t have a valid counterargument to make…
We should not lose sight of PEQ and measurements, too. Taking measurements is a very effective way to evaluate the effectiveness of your room treatment regimen, and can also help guide on what needs addressing next. Additionally, once you have gotten the room optimized, the application of PEQ will help alleviate any remaining modes that could not be addressed by placement and treatment alone. But that is probably a whole new video in its own right since its not simply a matter of just "make it flat" due to limitations of speakers, amplifiers, etc. and requires some thought on what corrections should or should not be applied.
One way to conduct measurements with low frequency problems is put a low frequency signal starting at 20hz or 30hz and then map out your pressure zones.
You set the volume at 85dB at the listening position, and then go around the room starting in the corner and measure about every 2 feet around the room, constantly increasing the frequency by about 5hz to 10hz. You may have coincidental modes within 5hz that are along 4 surfaces, especially if 2 or more dimensions are the same or relatively close to the same distance.
Here's a video that discusses these problems.
czcams.com/video/QN8wbV2cvcY/video.html
Phenomenal video bro!
Thanks, now my life is a bigger nightmare than I tought...
Awesome vid as always though
That was such a great video and explanation! 🎉
Great video and some fantastic demonstrations of what's going on with small room acoustics!
One thing to note with the 30hz and 60hz longitudinal spring vizualization: You're most likely seeing temporal aliasing (and in this case locking in as you've synchronized the camera framerate and the object being sampled) not an actual modal relationship.
Remember nyquist! To sample function of the system accurately you need at 2x the highest frequency of that system. While this visually works, if you were trying to measure the actual modal relationships in that spring the highest you could accurately represent would be 15hz (assuming your camera is shooting at 30fps) This is also why 60hz locks in, it's a clean doubling of 30hz.
An extra layer of fun with cameras is also how the shutter/exposure time will affect the sample data (averaging)
Great point, Tarnith! I didn’t think of that until you pointed it out. Kinda cool, actually.
I gotta watch this again because it went over my head a bit. I need the simplified edition.
I learned last week by a ingénieur , beds absord a lot of frequiences - so dont remove them from your bedrooms/home studios
it helps a lot - especially in low frequencies !! I had to share this hope it helps 😤😤
Thanks, E N V Y!
I have thought about a couch in my music room but rejected the idea because the room is not so big. Now I'm toying with the idea of putting in a couch and filling the body with rockwool.
@@grmblfzzzt that is actually a brilliant idea 😂 I’ve got a heap of insulation left over from building absorbers and it’s currently just stored in the air gaps behind my panels. I’m going to stuff my couch lol
Great explanation!
Fantastic presentation. My only critique is that you mention Helmholtz resonators, but not membrane-based trapping, which are so much more accessible than resonators. Otherwise, flawless presentation.
Absolutely brilliant, Kyle. Thanks :)
Thanks, Gib Son!
@@AudioUniversity ❤
great video!
Great explanation!!!
Thanks, Alejandro!
When you use Amroc, expand the dimensions window and then you can select Axial, Tangential and Oblique modes individually.
The Axial Modes are the biggest and hardest to treat and they are along the entire surface Front/Rear, Side walls and even ceiling. The Ceiling's of 7ft to 9ft have problems in the 60hz to around 75hz and they usually need about 6 to 7 inch deep absorption. They usually require more pressure based absorption, above 100hz, using velocity based absorption is more appropriate because those are reflections vs modes.
Get the bottom end fixed first. which means typically in the 30hz to 50hz range. That's the fundamental and the biggest problem. I'd start with speakers pulled away from the front wall and a good rule of thumb is pull them out about 3ft to 4ft.
The corners is not where I'd put the low frequency absorption. Axial modes are unwanted pressure with 2 parallel surfaces, not the corners.
I'd check out the Acoustic Field's products/design. they can either design the wall/ceiling construction to build the low frequency absorption into the wall construction, so then you only need to add diffusion and open cell foam for reflections. OR, you can buy or build your own low frequency absorption cabinets and line your walls with full range absorption.
I would recommend dealing with the Axial modes first and start at the lowest frequency you have a problem with.
Helmholtz don't work that well because they don't absorb as much as a diaphragmatic absorption cabinet.
it's not JUST the frequency you have a problem with, it's the location of the problem and the amplitude or amount of that frequency you have to consider.
Awesome Video Sirjee
Thanks For The Great Information
Thanks for watching!
thank you so much ❤ you help me alot
Awesome!
very well explained
Thanks, double T!
Useful information cheers
Glad to help! Thanks for watching!
The best way to deal with modes under 100 hz is a multi subwoofer array. Its going to be much less expensive and actually much more practical than potentialy huge resonators and absorbers.
4 matched small subwoofers in all 4 corners of the room will almost always be a significant improvement, even without any perfect matching and EQing.
Nice one. Thanks!
Thank you for watching!
very interesting. thank you
Thanks for watching!
A good way to solve sub 80hz mode problems is using two subwoofers. One on each side of a null. One sub in front left corner and one sub in back right corner will do very well in evening out the bass response because it’s helping the length and width modes
Super good info and great channel :)
For small rooms someone can try this :
-Pretty good acoustic treatment paired with Sonarworks (or other hardware/software solutions if the budget allows) it's the best solution for working 80% on a mix.
-In the end, using headphones for "fine tuning" the mix
It's working for me 😊
Good presentation! Thank you for making me aware of room modes. How do I determine where to position my speakers according to the shape of my room?
Small spaces suffer worst from modes. That may seem counterintuitive but it’s true. A large space allows many more modes, which is good. The more, the better, not least because they will be smaller in amplitude.
There are room dimension relationships that are ‘golden’ for modes. They require the least treatment and mics will work to their full potential in them. Drums will have a full voice and Rt will be well contained at every frequency. I built such a room out of rough concrete block and it just has to be heard to believe it. A live performance mecca.
This is a hot topic for me. I've set up a small home studio in an upstairs room of an old farmhouse, and it's beneath a slate roof. in front of me, beyond my speakers, is a sloping ceiling broken in the middle by a dormer window; behind me is just a sloping ceiling but there is gear beneath it. To my left is a flat wall but my keyboard stand is in front of it; to my right is the entrance door. I also have weird shapes in the corners where the sloping ceilings meet the walls at a height of around 73cm. Geometrically, it's a mess - I'm not sure any node calculators could handle it. When I set the place up I was kind of hoping that having a shape that wasn't a cuboid box would help prevent issues, but so far I'm unsure whether that's true. I think I've already noticed some nodes! It's quite a challenge...
I absolutely love your examples! Thanks for using my calculator :)
Thanks, Andreas! The calculator is an amazing tool - much appreciated!
I have very little interest on this topic (I don't record audio and if I did quality would probably be low on the priorities list). Basically, I clicked because I thought it would be fun to see the spring moving, which it was, but the whole video was interesting. You explained everything very well!
But this is not for just recording, its for mixing and producing also
Pulls out a transducer... Brilliant.
Este video fue excelente ! :)
Thanks, Migue!
Bass hunter technique (Acoustics Insider CZcams Channel) to find the optimum listening position, phantom image technique to place your speakers, then treatment and finally finish with ARC 4. My small mixing room sounds great. 😎
verdy well done
Thank you for this. I have to move and sadly, my little studio is only going to be 10 by 12 feet with a 6 foot high ceiling. It's either that or not have a room to record in.
Yeahhh I'm sticking with my headphones thanks
多謝！
Thanks for supporting Audio University, fieldacoustics!
I would have paid for this information
Well done. +1 subscriber.
I saw yesterday a studio where speakers were at the corner up to the ceiling at 45 grades down to ground.
However, great explanations you've done!
I don't know if this is useful, my project is in a tiny wood house building my music studio, two meters for two meters, with six keyboards, computers and racks, my speakers will be in high position directed to my head, on the two adjacent walls where my keyboards are, so 45grades in all directions, so the reflected sound will be a little room delay, not a deal. For Working I best uses Headphones.
Thanks, Patricia!
Is it safe to say it’s that it’s too complicated to do in a decent way without experience… ?Because that’s how I feel about it after having a home studio for a couple years and watching videos like these trying to make it better by myself… what I kinda settled on as for tips is : knowing your room is more important than it being perfectly treated (using also the usual monitor/“listening place” positioning tips) (and moving blanket on walls)
1:20 the scientist!!
Welp, I'm about to set up my home studio in a 10 x 11 bedroom. My acoustic treatment is going to be hanging blankets all over the walls because I'm broke as hell.
Our local Op-Shop has bins full of blankets, quilts, pillows and cushions designated as 'dog bedding'. They're washed, but perhaps stained, or had pet hair remaining after washing. They're very cheap, so I've been using a lot of things from the bins as acoustic treatment. Feather/down filled quilts and pillows seem to work particularly well, I packed my homemade treatment panels with them, and in some cases, especially with cushions and pillows in the corners, have just stapled them directly to the plasterboard and ceiling. Staple holes will fill with paint btw, no special prep required, the landlord knows this, so is not concerned at all.
You wouldn't believe the difference it's made for a few dollars here and there, I can't believe how quietly I can have the speakers and still have great clarity.
As you saw, thickness is an issue, the thicker the treatment, the lower the frequency it can help with, so think about pillows and cushions, not just blankets. 🙂
awesome..you're damn good😁
Why not just calibrate your speakers in one position and one position only? As long you have a flat response in your listening position… who cares if there is a buildup or null somewhere else?
Because nulls aren’t impacted by calibration - it’s not a dip in volume, it’s a complete cancellation.
@@fattommy4436 Nothing nulls perfectly in real-life.
Very well produced video. I appreciate your hard work. However I would make the argument that it's not your mixing room that is important at all. It's the playback system and room. Peace
Hi, very nice video. I have a more theoretical question regarding pressure based absorbers like membranes or Helmholtz resonators.
The term resonance means also in some context amplification. In all the textbooks I have read it is stated that if sound is produced at the natural frequency of the resonator, this sound is being absorbed by the resonators.
My question (it may also be stupid) is why do these membranes or Helmholtz resonators absorb these frequencies and do not amplify them. I have also seen some answers which have to do with the fact that the original sound and the reflection from the resonator are out of phase and therefore cancel each other but i am not really persuaded. I find this a bit difficult that every wave is out of phase with the reflected sound.
Have you ever thought about it or do you have an answer regarding this issue?
thanks kyle,for the usefull demonstration.
i have some some question about my mgp mixer,what is the use of 100hz switch in all of the channels?is this a low cut?thank you
Yes. This is a low cut switch.
@@AudioUniversity thank you very much kyle,im a newbie in this equipment😇
Hey Kyle, do you have any videos detailing how to determine speaker placement?
These might help:
czcams.com/video/t02EliXfxKo/video.htmlsi=yDVcHXTnOxJ0tS_u
czcams.com/video/XI0IQxG9xO8/video.htmlsi=KyVeSWz8C5zwwCp5
I've been watching your videos on how to setup a home studio and man, it's so much work! My question is: what the fuck should we do 😂 I'm so lost in so many variables that can affect a home studio that I don't even know what to do anymore
Hi what is the device you are using to " hear " the tones at the start of the video .?
Can somebody help me interprete the outcomes of the room mode calculator? I'm struggling with choosing the right room for months now, the one is a mit smaller and more square, the other one more like a cuboid. It says that the cuboid one has a lower Schroederfrequency, but the more square one lies more in the bolt area. I don't know what to do :'( (if somebody really wants to help me, here are the exact room dimensions: Cuboid: 5,30m x 3,30m x 2,53m (L x W x H), and the more square one: 3,90m x 3,30m x 2,53m (L x B x H)
So with the amroc calculator, the colored room mode areas are not where you would have to be to hear the issues, but where treatment would need to go to tame them?
I believe those colors correspond to areas of maximum pressure and maximum velocity. Different types of acoustic treatment are used for each.
has anyone ever co up with such a good lody, and forget it seconds later
Are you familiar with, “Trinnov?” If so, what are your thoughts?
Even if we use a basstrap we won't be using enough thickness for low end, so is pressure based traps only solution ?
Practically speaking, yes. Velocity absorbers aren’t ideal for low end control. But they can help from about 125 and up and are much less costly.
cool
Thanks for watching!
so, question, does audio from headphones or earphones reduce this problem since there are fewer surfaces to interact with before the waves hit your eardrum?
Yes! Check out this video for more info: czcams.com/video/ecbUTrx41zU/video.html
@@AudioUniversity cool, thanks!
Can we make acoustic bass traps diy so what matterials are good for making it
I’m sure it can be done. I have not made one before though.
There’s loads of info on the internet about building them. It’s basically a wood frame covered in acoustically transparent cloth, with Rockwool (insulating) slab built in. The deeper/bigger the better, but the trouble is, they take up a lot of space, so it’s a compromise if you have a small room.
👏
Thanks for watching!
that guitar in the back is really cool what is that?
Thanks! I believe it’s a Silvertone 1348.
My D bass notes are so much louder. Not sure how to remove
Mixing and producing in small rooms is depressing tbh. I can't afford a separate studio and the way my apartment's living room sounds kills both my productivity and creativity. I have 2 bass traps stacked in each corner next to my setup but it ain't helping much. Such is life.
I am planning to shift my studio to a very small room but I am planning to do painstakingly heavey acoustic treatment. So that there are no reflections, would it work ?? Or there any problem ?
I just moved and the only room available for my studio is perfectly square, everyone told me to either, find another room or move. The solution I found was... Curtains at the back to change the shape of the room, Basotect bass traps for the front corners, panels and clouds.
Sonarworks to iron out the slight 100Hz and 80Hz dip. New monitor stands and pucks. The room sounds fantastic now:) It can be done:)
Is there somewhere I can send a diagram and photo of my studio space to ask you a couple of questions on? Thanks
I’m planning to open up a community soon. That will be a place to post and ask questions from me and other community members!
@@AudioUniversityFantastic, look forward to that 😊
Hey , where did you learn al of this ? What university or course ?
I studied Audio Production at Webster University in St. Louis.
@@AudioUniversity ahh okay thanks ! Is there a big difference between sound engineer and audio production? I want to study that next year
There are many fields of study under the umbrella of Audio Engineering. Sound Production, Research, Design, Mixing, and many more!
@@AudioUniversity Okay so if I decide to study sound engineering has a lot more to offer than audio production? Okay thanks !
@@AudioUniversity i feel like I have so many questions to ask you about studying it and so on🙈
It is clear how modes affect playback and mixing, but what about recording. Shouldn't you treat your recorded instrument (drum kit) like a speaker and your microphone like the listening position (ears)? Or has this been discussed in another video? Based on room dimensions doesn't it make sense to locate the source and the mics in such a way that room modes are lessoned?
The drums are so close to the microphone there's no chance for waves and nodes to be a factor. Room mics sure, those you have to play with but nothing close mic'd is affected. Overheads are capturing mainly mids and highs and rarely any low end so that's not much of an issue.
Close mic your guitar amp with tons of gain and do squealies. It really won't matter at all, some people will buy it. You can even do it living right next to an airport, neighbours' dogs etc.
Sounds like (pun intended) a room's nodes can be konkulated based on room dimensia.... yes?
..
Yes! Although the construction and materials have a small impact as well.
Abbey Road Studio One - The World's Largest Recording Space. Perfect sound.
What is the device ( you moved fron to back) by which you pick the room modes. Pls post a link with manufacturer Name & model #
www.arborsci.com/products/mechanical-wave-driver
@@AudioUniversity I think he's asking about the ear-shaped mics you moved around.....
I understand the basics of stereo and the basics of quad sound but the human ears either you going to get it fully from the front or a little bit lesser sound directly from your rearand so my point is to Sweet Spot is going to be only in one place in that room naturally according to the structure and how the speakers are located, show me an equation and I'm happy.
...what?
Fun fact that you probably know but never really articulated: Everything that vibrates plays a major chord! Every _note_ is a chord!!