The REALITY of the Ashes of Creation CARAVAN SYSTEM!
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- čas přidán 3. 02. 2024
- The Caravan Stream was as well done as I think it can be. But, it is hard to showcase player-driven systems in a scripted manner. And the reality is...Caravans will not always be riveting gameplay. ALSO...do Caravan Attackers need a PENALTY??? NOPE.
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#ashesofcreation #mmorpg #intrepidstudios - Hry
Archeage founder here.
What people are missing about the risks for attackers is that most of the time, trying to go pvp for caravans is just going to be a waste of time. This is how it was in Archeage, also. There weren't a bunch of PvPers like in the livestream just waiting around all day hoping to gank a single cart, because it would be a massive waste of time. Even if you succeeded, you'd still have been better off by just farming, let alone if you farmed and then ran the materials as trade packs yourself. People just didn't do it for this reason. If you got PvP'd while running trade packs on carts, it was most likely someone just trolling, and they usually wouldn't even take your stuff. PvP'ers like to PvP for the action, not so that they can then themselves do something as boring as escorting a caravan across the map. What people WOULD do in archeage is camp the trade pack turn-in spots for ships full of trade packs, because the risk vs reward of sitting around all day hoping to get lucky and steal packs was much higher. Was extremely rare for people to actually go out and legit try and pvp with ships over trade packs. It was always just the trolls camping literally on top of the turn-in spots for ships, because they didnt have to transport anything themselves.
In the livestream, the ACTUAL scenario that would take place is that right before they enter the banners for the town they're turning the caravan into, you'd just have a bunch of rogues and rangers hiding and waiting to gank caravans. People would be right there, right outside the guard limits, get jumped by a bunch of stealthers, caravan would get destroyed, stealthers would break open every crate and run asap to black market vendor to sell. Why? Because it's easiest. No PvP'ers are going to do like the livestream and wait out in the middle of nowhere for a caravan to possibly pass by, nor would they run the risk of waiting for their own caravan to be summoned and then escort it. They'd camp outside towns with black markets in stealth, gank, and sell in the quickest manner possible for "free money."
Indeed, and great point. If you are hunting Caravans you are doing it wrong for sure. If you happen to run across one and have enough people then maybe you might attack. Other than that, it is a complete waste of time. This is the best comment so far, so I'm gonna pin it.
@@RyveGenesis thanks! Don’t think I’ve ever had a pinned comment before lol
You make some really fantastic points about the weaknesses of the current system. I would certainly try to relay this feedback to the intrepid team. I am curious with your experience in archeage what do you think can be done to improve the pain points? Maybe make it so caravan attackers arent allow to stay in one area for more than a certain period of time?
@@WhiskeyAfterHours Hard to give them feedback, because they never stated WHO could attack, nor have they given information regarding specifics of factions and their interactions with nodes.
If its such that you can only attack caravans from people that are not citizens of an allied node (same metropolis), then it may not be much of an issue, especially if you can't use black markets of non allied nodes. You'd have to go into enemy territories to attack, as well as bring stolen goods all the way back to your own allied nodes.
If its just completely open PvP and anyone can attack any caravans, then its actually really bad, since allied players will be trolling/griefing each other.
In any case, they really need to TONE DOWN the bonuses/rewards for completing caravan runs. The primary purpose should be to move materials for practical purposes due to goods/resources availabilities across various regions. Even Archeage's trade packs were kind of derpy in these regards, because it was just like a dinky trade-based minigame profession. Archeage didn't have it where you could build cities and whatnot, though, so it had to be that way. There's NO good reason for them to be trying to make it into a minigame with bonuses and such. If you take a caravan of wood from a highly forested area to a desert area, the "rewards" should just be the fact that the local market price is going to be much higher for wood there, not just some derpy minigame about traveling.
It is a good point though attacking traders at sea was fun and somewhat worth it, and there were times when you could jump people at port. Overall, I just thought trading wasn't worth it, that seemed to be AA's problem. The risk during the day/prime time wasn't worth it. Trade runs happened at night, sometimes by bot trains. Have to have the proper risk verse reward, always. I also think the option to destroy the supplies should be available, can maybe take time but should be available. Also, I am not sure ganking near towns will happen since I don't think you can turn them in at an opponent's destination? This means you would be attacking caravans at choke points near where you can carry the supplies back to your node.
Have you tried water remix, they're calling it ice. So cool
Sure you ain't talking about slush?
A “boring” caravan ride is a good thing… means you won’t risk your goods
Hydro-homies unite! Thanks Water!
Some very good points here. Great video, brother.
Attackers did have two potential penalties in Archeage:
- They were required to flag and eat crime points, which isn't a big problem but its an inconvenience that keeps some people from murdering every pack runner that they see. (There is an exception for the opposite faction, but realistically that effectively never happened other than at sea - and the ocean is its own different thing.)
- They were required to dom if it was in peace time, which, most packs were ran during peace periods or in peace zones: Dom's cost a gold investment worth several packs and also risk adding a defeat into a permanent record.
The gold requirement for a dom in and of itself did a fairly moderate job in preventing the regular potatoes from getting pushed out of runs, as it simply isn't profitable enough to do it against 1 rando on a freighter, shy of more special runs i.e. Ahnimar packs or something. Larger groups run with more carts and cargo and thus dom'ing them (and encouraging fights amongst the people who you generally want to encourage fights between) is far more worth it, but does carry the risk of minor monetary loss and a potential L on the leaderboards.
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Immediately after watching I went out and doubled down on my H2O!
Hell yeah!
Agreed, talking about attackers needing a penalty is at its root a balance question. Kinda frivolous until A2.
Definitely
Caravan system will see a lot of action leading up to a Castle/Node sieges I would imagine. Nothing like spending your time crippling the enemy before the battle even starts.
True
Keep going on :), love your vids!!
What they should have shown was the attackers winning and then the defenders calling all their friends to come take it back haha
As long as there is a system that necessitates caravans, there will be caravans. As long as caravan loot is desirable, there will be highway men.
Get these 2 things, and Ashes will cater to much diverse pvp options
agreed
They just need to make it so there aren't many black market vendors to funnel attackers to specific cities. That way you can consistently have a chance to regain your lost resources. This would make it more interactive as you frantically gather more people to get ur goods back
Agreed
Awesome sponsors today. LOL
Great delivery, my favorite recap vid for sure. Agreed that this system needs an active game to be truly tested and refined. I think the easiest way to "Penalize" the attacker is to make the time to call there caravan fairly hefty based on node distance. The longer it take for there caravan top arrive, the more time the defender has to call in back up. If the cargo is valuable, then defenders will show up to take it back. Don't caravan past your enemies node, they will have a quick turn around on stealing your caravan; and if you do bring back up!
I'll tell you what you can't improve on... WATER, it's so awesome you're made of it ! At least half your entire mass is WATER ! Thanks Water
Indeed lol.
Water is nice and all that till it turns into an arsewhole and takes a big ol sn*w dump on your head .
Great points.
Good formatting imo & addressing the initial concerns many people have after a showcase is a good conversation piece for the community 💯
Great video dude! I could see why people want a system in place so that the attackers have some kind of risk, having seen Xillin's video earlier I do kind of lean that way. But the longer I think upon it, the more I realize it just depends on how large the world is and how many routes that caravans can take. Also I guess in the end, for them to take all your stuff they must bring their own caravan, so it does give you time to gather allies to ambush them. There's a ton of factors involved and I think once we get into Alpha 2 we'll see it all coming together and what will need to change, if anything at all! I can't wait to play with caravans, especially with creating blockades on the river with empty raft caravans!
Absolutely! I am open to having a penalty of sorts, if it is found to be needed. But I would rather wait and see first.
Yep, Alpha 2 will help us all figure out what is needed or not!
Yes your personal commentary is much better because most of have already seen it haha
Thanks water.
This video is a niiiice!
Any well organized guild will face little resistance to their caravans.
The idea of spies sounds fun on paper but won't be an issue for high tier guilds. All you have to do is require guild members to be active participants in guild activities and you'll weed out any spies. Who's going to have time to play their spy alt 15-20 hours a week during prime server hours?
Simply invite 2 full raid groups of trusted guild members and there's almost zero chance anyone will be able to assemble a force in time capable of taking you down.
The only people who will get their caravans taken of they even attempt to run them are small guilds and guilds who take anyone from general chat.
Dont stop making videos!!! i watch them all and need it to survive till release! lol
I'll keep pushing on. That's for the support!
Have to agree while this was a good stream the crafting stream from a few months ago is the standout for me. I do wonder with all of the systems AOC is proposing to have will caravans be that hotly contested.
But honestly, we as the players really need to get hands-on to see how these systems play and feel in game before we can pass too much judgement on them.
Agreed
Spies will very likely be big in Ashes, so 'enemies' know where you are taking a caravan. And any other means to know where a caravan will be going. Hopefully cheats don't come into play but if you could have a map mod/hack that told you where caravans are (or in a large surrounding area around you) then, well, it will get made and used. Also, you know some large guilds will have extra accounts and will sit (most likely rangers) on routes as lookouts. And no worries on time away, hopefully as Ashes gets closer and closer to launch that you get more and more subs, seems likely.
Spies are definitely a thing to consider for sure. Thanks!
Algorithm Appeasing Attestation!
It would be a good gold sink if the attackers can't summon another caravan and just need to look the "opened" crates - so less value obv
Or maybe a "reputation" debuff/penalty for a node - like the node where the caravan from, something like this.
Imo it's ok to not give "more" penalty but the loot should not be too profitable, "much more" than doing yourself the caravan. Some player will completly ignore starting their own caravans if too profitable to steal.
We should nerf the lootable stuff basicaly. Yes the starter lose 10 gold, but the attacker should not gain 10 gold.
I enjoyed the stream but not for the PVP. I was curious how the performance would hold up with so many players on screen at one time and wasn't disappointed.
One thing I think would work is normal attacks doing zero damage to caravans. Require the use of some time of siege equipment to take down a caravan. That way attackers would be out the cost of the siege equipment if their attack fails.
That's a very interesting idea. Force the attackers to also sink materials in to create the Siege equipment
Attacking a caravan doesn't need to include a penalty. It needs to include risk. Those are two different things. Consequences of a risk only kick in in case of failure; penalties are there from the start. It wouldn't be worth such a fuss normally, but AoC promotes the idea of Risk vs. Reward as one of its core philosophies. In the case of caravans, the caravan's owner (defender) risks a great deal more than attacker, while the attacker risks virtually nothing and can claim all the rewards the defender could have gotten upon success. It creates a situation where the "risk" part is missing for one side, and the imbalance is obvious.
You mentioned bad reputation. Reputation hit may indeed be a powerful deterrent, but it cuts both sides. An attacker may get the reputation of "evil player, let's hunt them down". At the same time, an unsuccessful defender may get the reputation of "n00b, let's do it again and again". Both can be very harmful, even if they don't directly relate to a particular system.
Let's, for argument sake, assume that the attacker really gets hunted down, retaliates, and events escalate to a full blown guild war, where opposing guilds attack each other on sight. Now that bad reputations are being sorted in a violent manner and can't get possibly any worse, we are at square one: defending a caravan carries lot more risks than attacking one.
It may be the case that the attackers need more risk. But, like I said, in other similar games they didn't have built in risk tied to attackers, and no one really asked for it either. A2 will show us if it's needed
Opinion --- 1) Risk vs Reward - No risk will invite the spineless to attack every caravan they can for the currency. Everything to gain and nothing to lose just to even try. If successful to often, could lessen ones desire to even create caravans if the expectation is to be attacked and all efforts become a loss...... 2) Would prefer a risk applied from the very start and have it removed at a later time if determined not needed nor desired. Rather than to have it applied later as a control measure or punishment !! Just my 2 cents.
We'll see I guess. They have a lot to do already
I feel like I'm one of only people who thinks the caravan feature is being over-advertised. I feel like its ok and its fine to be in the game, but its being advertised like a pillar of the game. All its doing is moving resources.. It just seems like such a small thing, and likely boring a majority of the time.
They should be showing off things like exploration, massive caves networks, raids, misc. side activities, skills, ship combat, sea monsters, islands, giant massive NPC bosses, new zones with better and more unique art direction/stylization, more progression mechanics, improved animations, world events, more animals in the world, etc.. Not walking a wagon through the woods...
Moving resources is kinda huge in the game when the entire economy is revolving around those, and are the main reasons you do all the things you just mentioned besides it being fun. So ya its kinda big deal but i agree i want to see all that other stuff too.
@@maxrusty3596 the economy shouldnt revolve around moving resources. A resource economy simulator shouldnt be the main foundation of the game. It should be an aspect for sure, but people aren't going to find major excitement for the sole act of walking a wagon through the woods. Sure, there will be a sense of satisfaction through progression which also matters, but it shouldnt be the main feature of the game.
@@anony88 Are you forgetting you have to defend it or attack random ones? Theres a lot more to the game than that but this is a staple of the main source of consensual pvp in the game. Not sure what your issue is if u dont like it, move on. I think your missing the bigger picture as many do sadly.
@@maxrusty3596 I'm not forgetting anything, and I have a right to express my opinion on something that I dont like. I have a right to criticize a game feature. I'm not taking this personal but you seem very defensive for some reason.
@@anony88 Dont project onto me bro lol. Im expressing my opinion too thats all.
i don't like the "spawn a caravan" part
Yeah, that part is interesting for sure
I just don't care for the unbalanced threats. Is there a downside for attacking? Perhaps you can be labeled a criminal and hunted down by bountyhunters. Or lose access to vendors and services for an hour or two except for the black market. There definitely needs to some downsides to attacking a caravan and going pvp.
I mean, like I explained, it's set up just like how previous MMO'S that had similar systems set it up. It worked in those MMO'S just fine. Maybe it won't work here, but we don't know yet.
The Game has potential, but Steven has no idea of gaming. Boring, repeat a caravan to make the game work? Only Top gear will be crafted, no drops from Epic Mobs or w/e? No thanks.
There is a chance for gear to drop from mobs. And some materials can only get from killing bosses, which you need to craft the gear. So, the same loop of killing raid bosses to get the best gear still exists.
@@RyveGenesis I would hope so. I was interested in this game about 2 years ago ... Now, I just mock and troll this to no end. I really Hope for the Best, but, multiple changes, multiple loss and changes of his team suggests he is Lost and the ones that left know it. To be honest I think in 2026 it might come out. And he will still be trying to Sell In-game crap before it launches. 🤦🤔