PVP MMO's "ALWAYS FAIL" why ASHES COULD be DIFFERENT!
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
- Ashes of Creation is a PVX MMO that does have a lot of PVP Elements. Many have said all PVP MMOs fail, which is not completely true but it is true that PVE MMOs have done better overall. Why is that? Is Ashes doing enough things differently? Further, will PVE fans enjoy Ashes?
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#ashesofcreation #mmorpg #intrepidstudios - Hry
As a 100% PvE player in BDO, I really like that there is still somewhat a vibrant PvP community. If you look at the most played games on Steam at anytime,, most are PvP games if it be CS, Dota, Apex, Rust, COD, Naruka, etc. PvP in MMOs always has some serious headwinds though. There are 2 real headwinds for MMOs to overcome before PvP feels good to most players though.
First of all is the progression in MMOs is generally long term compared to all the other games. If PvP is tied into that loop, it quickly becomes lopsided fight. The strong get stronger and the weak quit the game. If you have normalized gear in PvP or have an easy to achieve BIS, then incentive to play the game is lost. Where those other games succeed is that once someone wins. the game wipes the slate and everyone starts over. MMOs continue to grind on even though the winners and losers are long ago decided.
The second problem with PvP in MMOs is concentration of power. Think of it more from a sport sleague and I will use American Football as an example. If they took all the salary caps and drafts out of the league, all the best players would end on one or maybe two teams. People like to win and given a choice on being the worst player that wins every game or the best player that loses every game, most people are going to choose to be with the winners. Top guilds stay on top for way too long and just suck the strength out of all of the weaker guilds. Obviously not fun for the weaker guilds, but I don't think it would be all that great for members of the strongest guilds when they are just obliterating the lesser guilds. How often are you going to want to move a caravan with your 15 homies when the rival guild shows up with 50 players that all have better gear?
The only answer that I see is that there needs to be some cataclysmic event that happens when a guild gets too strong for too long. If there was an earthquake, volcano, hurricane, tsunami, or asteroid from space to just level the nodes where these uber strong guilds reside, I think it would prevent a lot of the snowballing of strength in the game and would be a lot more fun for a lot longer time for everyone else. If people know that this is a possibility or there are omens of impending destruction, then people will have one big incentive to not concentrate too much power and keep the playing field more level.
Agree with you on basically everything. Thanks for the comment
Right. I prefer PVE in games too. That's why im more excited for a pve focused mmo like Mirandus
Pvp doesn't equal hardcore. Plenty of casual pvpers out there and I think that is what is needed more than pve players for ashes to succeed.
100% this
good point, i haven't really thought about it like that
Try hard Player destroy fun for All. Pro Player are always the Main Problem in all games
@@gabrielschmitz1177 kinda agree but that's gotta be a design fault. Not saying it's easy to solve but people should be able to play the way they wanna play, the game should accommodate
Thanks for all the updates
Thanks so much!
So many of these questions will be answered when we get our hands on A2 and get a true feel for Ashes.
indeed
Great video, always fun to watch the topics circle back around with new faces....
I KNEW FIRE was coming to us soon !.! I used to like fire, but I've been burned by fire before :(
PvEers should enjoy Ashes, just not all of them. A chunk like to raid and this is not a raid MMO, for instance. But many PvEers like to craft and solo, so as long as they aren't being ganked constantly (plus some like PvP, just not 24/7), they will enjoy Ashes. As for 'a success', your points are spot on as well as how many PvP MMOs had small budgets. IMO, if Ashes has 50-80k in the US playing for years and around the same in EU, that is a big success. At launch so many will try it, that is just how it is nowadays and so many will complain, again as it is these days. The devs seem to understand this and so I think they will just keep working on what they have been describing and implementing, and so as pop falls and the 'game is dead' cries go on and on for a few months, tyhey will ignore and we should have a fun MMO to play for years at IMO around 40k-60k NA and same EU, maybe even more in the EU, they have more 'old school toughness' to them. Them some in SK and China if they launch servers there, etc.. I've also said it before, a big key is whether the combat feels good to many players as well as do the mechanics 'make sense', as in few frustrating game mechanics. This could be a game for the more thoughtful MMO players and they number far more than the 'twitch' MMO players ('twitch' as in action combat, which works but never really quite... heh).
I am hopeful for a really big launch, then them holding onto 50-60% of launch players 3+ months later and then doing something few have done, growing slowly after that
@@RyveGenesis I hope so, but so many MMO players are so 'raid focused'... I definitely can see around 800k to 1.1 million trying Ashes, so at least they will get a nice big lump sum to work with. 500k+ sticking around? It took ESO a little while to stabilize as well as GW2, I think Ashes will as well.
Honestly, I see people starting the game on release but not sticking with it. PvE players I mean. Once they see how heavily PvP attached to so many systems it’s more than likely going to annoy them. People say there’s gonna be bounty hunters or whatever but they only kick in after people get griefed. For a lot of PvE players it’ll be too little too late.
Let it burn baby!! Burst out in song, "We didn't start the fire! It was always burning, since the worlds been turning!!"
One way to make PVP fun is to inspire a game after eve online. In eve you are not encouraged to always bring out your best. In fact 90% of gameplay in eve is done with ships you can easily replace. Also in eve there are areas where you are nearly safe unless a specific type of ganker is in system.
If ashes makes it so PVP is low to medium stakes most of the time, and only gets to high stakes sometimes, more people will engage in the PVP and become good at it, and if you are good enough at PVP you begin to like it, because it's human nature to enjoy winning with other humans.
But also there should be areas where being killed is very unlikely. Obviously in ashes there won't be a "high security node" but with the corruption and level dispariry systems in place I think nobody should ever get ranked for gain by a player they can't do anything against. The only time those types of ganks will happen would be when a griefer wants to have some fun. But there aren't that many people that wanna do it, especially if there is little gain.
I think those blockers will make PVP for no reason very rare.
Pvp MMOs need pvp oriented goals like DAOC did.
true
100% agree. The thing is, Ashes has exactly that and in multiple forms: control of nodes, building, fights over precious resources, caravans and likely player emergent gameplay. Reminds me of EVE.
Unfamiliar with Dark Age of Camelot.
Dark Age of Camelot had castles and towers to conquor which would give the faction with the most extras bonuses to xp and gold in pve. It also had a place called Darkness falls which the controling faction would have access to although if you were inside when your faction lost the gateway you could stay till you died.
@@prahladaz7296
Thanks!
Always appreciate the support! Thanks again
Man I really want to support Fire! Do you have a link to which I can support Fire?? So cool! 💰
Just make a bunch of fires!
I don't believe there should be a penalty for caravan attackers.
In order for the attackers to truly capitalize on their new loot, they must become the new defender and the original caravan owners will have a chance to rally with more players
yeah, that is the point i made in my last video as well. but honestly, i am not sure where i actually stand on it anymore lol. Just need to play it and see, IMO
The, frankly unbelievable, scope of the Ashes design has always given me pause. The Wiki reads like a wish list, more than not. Either the game will stay in development long past its expiration date, or many announced features and game mechanics will be relegated to some future expansion. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but my gut tells me that what we see is what we will get. As far as the "success" of the game, I think it behooves us all to define that in a manner that specifically excludes the financial component. The game cannot lose money in development, because revenues from cosmetic/pack sales (discounting SS's theoretical but unproven and unspecified investment beyond expected startup costs) easily exceed $50 million. Only in the long term after launch -- if that indeed comes to pass -- will it be possible to judge whether the game is a success in terms of populated, viable servers.
Very well said, and agreed.
You know after all of these debates, I'm thinking about becoming the first completely corrupted player on the server. 😈😂
Hell yeah!
Yo, the Ashes phoenix loves your sponsor.
My own view is that Ashes content is well thought out and motivational for PvP, for PvE and for their balance.
The make or break issues are: (1) can they get the game out in reasonable time, (2) how well do players like Ashes' brand of open world combat.
Agreed
BDO i still on top 4 mmorpg and heavy p2win,but game is fuckin amazing,great node system,siege wars,mehanics,visuals and classes are crazy good!So point is AoC need to make great system and also most important part gameplay/combat/mehanics!
I think there's a bit of discernment needed. If someone is approaching Ashes saying they're more comfortable with PvE, and have had bad experiences with PvP, they should be shown what might change their mind, listened to, and have feedback taken from them.
The ones who are basically saying Ashes should change completely so its like the games they like playing? No, gatekeep the hell out of them, and when they fall down, gatekeep them in the ribs a few times for good measure.
Agreed
Fire is awesome.
It's one of my best sponsors for sure
Anyone know the ratio of pvp to pve populations in wow? Because they've had a huge pvp-server presence for a bloody long time now
true
They should take the DAOC route, which was more PVP focus, but still had good pve as well. Maybe balance it a bit better though.
Agreed
With regards to PvP and MMO's ... they should make PvE MMO's ONLY and PvP MMO's ONLY. Pretty much every single MMO that TRIES to cater to BOTH end up sucking. I've been playing MMO's since 1999. Sure there may be a few examples that pull it off, but 95% of those that try, FAIL. I prefer my PvP in FPS games, where it belongs. My 2 cents and after 25 years, it won't change.
I like variety. MMO'S are a big time commitment so it's nice to have both
before i watch i just wanna say my piece that the corruption system and the time it takes to get to max level + the time it takes to buy and or make gear + the time it takes to do anything in game + the time it would take to make pvp groups and especially groups of people willing to throw away their reputations and all their time on their characters to do mindless pvp + the corruption penalties all culminate that non consensual pvp pretty much wont really happen. full stop the only pvp that will go on is between attackers and those who CHOOSE to fight back most often as well as pvp in pvp events like caravans.
to your initial point, thats the idea of ashes is that if you dont want to personally interact with the system, you can pay others to do it for your but you introduce the risk of them stealing from you as they do it or not being good enough to ensure your success or some mix of all of that and thats the core part of ashes. pve enjoyers who think ashes will even function at all let alone normally without pvp are stupid and people who think the game doesnt need the people who focus pve hard are likewise incomptent about how ashes is designed to work.... full stop both are needed and both sides can work with eachother doing what THEY like and paying the other side to handle what they dont like.
Ok do im a good way through and so far i mostly agree but i do have some things to say and add.
Firstly, I wanna say that you didn't add a lot of the reasons that other PvP mmos have failed being things like poor moderation of the pvp, poor incentive to not grief, no weight to choosing to PvP like risks on the attackers especially since many PvP mmos go down the solo rpg pretending to be a mmo route where everyone is a solo walking god that can be all hard mode content by themselves meaning its not even hard in any capacity, and a total lack of meaningful places to PvP as you cant destroy guilds or cities and or all PvP is locked to entirely seperate servers or instances.
As for something I disagree with that will lead into my next point, I disagree that you can know how systems will work out with eachother AT ALL until you can play it even if i agree you cant know for sure how players will react. On that note, I wanna add that social reputation will mattwr in ashes as all meaningful endgame economy will be fully player driven from players not even likely to bother with the auction houses as both small and big merchant guilds will likely get mass requests for resources as merchant guild names become well known for bulk orders at a lower than market price even if they still buy enough that they haveta pay out the ass so their crafters can make and repair armor and weapons.
Beyond all of that, the biggest factors that will make sure PvP is always consensual and actuslly enjoyable is the fact that no matter who you are or whatever type of open world content your doing, you will NEED a group. This will be because the classes in PvP have not only been stated to be but also as a natural fact of how each class will work from what we have seen, they will be very rock, paper, scissorsey in PvP meaning you need to have allies to cover your weaknesses and you allies will need the same and so will your enemies meaning since PvP is so based on group PvP well beyond anything else, you wont get singular dudes who pay 10 bucks for a maxed account and camp spawn or put in the like hour to get to max level to than go spawn camp boobs by themselves on a whim cause not only will leveling and gear progression take WAAYYYY longer but it will also ridiculously be heavily based on working together and interacting with other players face to face meaning those sort of alt accounts wont exist near as much and even for those that do, they still need to find a team of players willing to help them mindlessly PvP which will be harder finding players willing to throw all their invested time like that and for those who do, theyll be like literally irl bandits dressed in rags with shabby iron swords against like your stereotypical rich ass knights in full plate style matchup. Full stop what PvP there will bewill likely only act as a moderatly harder encounter than an actual threat to most.
I hope the Ashes PvE is good enough.
same
HAHA Fire!
Your intro was a little off lol. Tbf pvpers say carebears and crybabies and pvers say pvp shouldn't exist delete it all and all pvpers are psychopaths. Thats two real takes all over forums and reddits lol. The issue here is that this isn't a safe place mmo, its meant for everyone to participate in pvp. Steven has said multiple times its a pvx mmo, not a farming rp game. No offense it thats anyone's thing, but this isn't it. I play both pve and pvp, but I understand going into ashes that its built different and that's gonna make some angry who want another cookie cutter mmo.
agreed.
Don't undock a caravan you cannot afford to lose, o7 😁
PvP games generally shrink quickly because the game is "won" by a few within a month. If you reward PvP, the strong get stronger leading to a few dominant players/groups and most of the rest looking to gank PvEers. This leads to PvE people quitting and the PvP players feeding on each other. Now you have a niche game, which does not bode well if the development costs were substantial. Only way I've really seen someone outlast that curve is Eve, with PvE friendly zones that have huge incentives not to gank. As to Ashes, guess time will tell.
Indeed
I do not see an issue with PvP vrs. PvE in this game. There will be plenty of gameplay what ever your style. As for PK/Ganking, Steven has effectively said: PKers and Gankers will NOT ruin this game I am developing. Sliders (corruption system) will be adjusted as necessary. This game is NOT for Everyone.
true
i dont think pve enjoyers are necessary. there are enough pvp enjoyers out there to fill a game. it just needs to be a good pvp game. a pvp mmo needs casual pvp players not pve players. not that aoc will be a pvp mmo. it is pvx so i guess aoc needs pve players (unfortunatey ;p)
star citizen v2
Well...I mean yeah so far 😂
PvE players think PvP players don’t play PvE, but what is certainly true is that PvE players do not play PvP. Lastly all MMO’s that a PvE only have actually all failed.
No pro player alwys do pve n pvp at same time
@@gamerrimba9907 Huh?
Hard to find too many that are PVE only
Pvp in open world fails because winners get ahead and losers quit the game.
Can be that way yeah
wow pvp is the best! it works and it can work with ashes.
Ashes is very different mechanically
In the Intro it is admitted that the game won't survive without the money from PVE players, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no market for a PvP-focused-mmorpg. Without the ability to lure in a steady stream of PVE players the PvP-focused-mmorpg is a 100%, guarenteed failure!
The developers of Ashes of Creation talk about PvP as little as possible, despite the fact that it's a PvP-focused-mmorpg where anybody can attack anybody anywhere, anytime. Because PvP IS going to kill Ashes of Creation.
Also, this video's view of a successful mmorpg is both biased and economically infantile.
Economically infantile is a new insult I have not seen before lol. I like it!
Yup PvP MMOs fail. They rely on massive amounts of players. Developers don't realize that by making the world bigger than needed once the exodus of players happens the content becomes boring and worthless. This will be another
New World 2.0 with a bigger world that'll lost a massive amount of players within the first 90 days.
Well, the game is massively spent from New World in nearly every regard in terms of it's design. That doesn't mean it can't fail, but if it does it will likely be for different reasons IMO.
No pvp enjoyer ever seeks MMOs, they go for mobas and shooters
Often true yes
Not at all true in my case.
And given a lot of the highly coordinated, open world, larger fights I've been involved in, I'm definitely not alone.
EVE, ESO, BDO and a few others.
And they give a style of fighting, plus reasons to fight, not found in MOBA and Battle Royale games.
I enjoy pvp. I also love mmos. Your statement is objectively incorrect.
They should have PVE Servers
And in 3 years you'll be making "shocking state of ashes pve servers" lol. Hope you're doing good sawman! Hope to see you in ashes as well.
PVPenis servers is what I think they should have
OR PVZ, or even PVXXX... Perhaps AoC identifies as a PV4 game o.O