Psychiatrist Explains How Smart Phone Addiction Actually Works | Offline Podcast
Vložit
- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
- Dr. Anna Lembke, Stanford Psychiatrist and author of “Dopamine Addiction,” joins Jon to talk how smartphones, social media, and the internet have fundamentally changed the way our brains process pleasure. Making the case that phones are similarly addictive to alcohol, tobacco, and drugs, she teaches Jon how we can reset our brains to have a healthier relationship with our phones and the world around us.
00:00 - Intro
01:12 - Interview start and on how dopamine works
14:15 - Ad Break
18:45 - how bad is our digital addiction?
35:43 - Ad Break 2
39:44 - How to reset our brains
Subscribe to our channel! czcams.com/users/crookedmedia?...
Crooked believes that we need a better conversation about politics, culture, and the world around us-one that doesn’t just focus on what’s broken, but what we can do to fix it. At a time when it’s increasingly easy to feel cynical or hopeless, former Obama staffers Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor have created a place where people can have sane conversations that inform, entertain, and inspire action. In 2017 they started Crooked with Pod Save America-a no-bullshit conversation about politics. Since then, we continue to add shows, voices, and opportunities for activism, because it’s up to all of us to do our part to build a better world. That’s it. End of mission.
Want some pep talks, the most important things to do/know, and the occasional dog pic? Shoot us a text at (323) 405-9944
Written content at www.crooked.com
Follow Crooked on Twitter / crookedmedia
Follow Crooked on Facebook / crookedmedia
Follow Crooked on Instagram / crookedmedia - Věda a technologie
Now, after listening to this Dr, I understand why many things I've never understood people's fascination with, such as their phones, accumulation of "stuff,", and sports, as actually being addictive.
I love Ana. She came to speak at my medical center about 8 years ago brought such fresh and meaningful perspectives on addiction and the human condition. She continues to be a gift to our nutty world!!
In Canada?
@@sl4983 in San Mateo, California.
I think pain is more important than most people realise. I read once that swimming in cold water has been shown to greatly improve mood/reduce anxiety. And there's a whole range of human behaviour that could be described as deliberately seeking out 'safe' pain - a huge variety of sports (especially extreme endurance sport or martial arts), very spicy food, tattoos/piercing, a massage that is 'painful', etc. I'd tentatively add horror films and roller coasters as causing psychological pain, which could have a similar effect. Is it just endorphins or does it have a long term benefit to mood regulating hormones? Personally I feel that having space for safe pain in my life (can't stress the safe part enough) has had a long term positive effect on my mental health. Hearing Dr Lembke talk about how/why the brain likes pain and pleasure to be in balance (at about 6 mins in) was reassuring, and clarified something to me.
Wow! I love her admissions about CZcams!! I have the exact same experience, the same guilty pleasure, and the same conflict in my mind.
Omfggggg 🤬
I have a highly addictive, driven, ADHD hyperfocus mentality, and (fortunately) dexterity issues that made me run, not walk away from the smart phone. I am SO glad for that decision. That said, I am addicted to my laptop, lol.
Don’t forget that simply seeking our goals stimulates dopamine production. It’s hypothesized that more dopamine is experienced during seeking than after obtaining the goal. I don’t have a source citation atm, but I learned this in several of my psychology and neuroscience courses.
She’s exactly right, our needs are so easily met that we have little need to engage those behaviors that kept us in mental homeostasis.
She answers my comment above exactly at 32:00!!!
I remember the original series Star Trek where Spock mentions to the rival who successfully wins Spock's mate something like "you may find the seeking is more pleasurable than the having".🖖
I've found that the cheapest vacation is simply turning off your phone. Serenity now ...
Loved this so much. I'm a psychotherapist and follow all of the techniques and skills she uses with myself and my clients. She is so on point and has her finger on the pulse of what's happening with humans at this point in our evolution. So glad to have you share this on such a large platform. I am only one person and I can only have so many clients...but this is information people really need to hear and apply to their lives.
Agreed! The part about making human connections reminded me of Simon Sinek’s “the millennial question” where he says that many young people today don’t necessarily experience the awkwardness of initial conversations or asking someone out in person - they can just “swipe right”. czcams.com/video/vudaAYx2IcE/video.html
Great show. I now need to buy the book. It was amazing to find out that the Doctor is in the same addiction boat as I am. I barely use my cell phone (80% landline) but I have my list of favorite podcasts, "news" and distractions on CZcams and I am regularly hitting the refresh button to see if any of my favorites have added a new post. If not, I'll watch whatever seems like the next best thing (those car cam videos aren't going to watch themselves). I appreciated all her recommendations although I sat here thinking "that can't possibly work for me". I'll watch this again later, and I will get the book.
Ditto everything you said!
3 of a kind
Absolutely addictive! I struggle with this addiction every day.
We actually have to fight for a lot, even in our developed environments. If we give up the struggle, there can be dire consequences. I really believe that, no matter where/when one grows up, fighting the right fight is the secret of happiness, regardless of dopamine
Appreciate this honest conversation so much! Thank you!
Well Jon I think I love “Offline” the most now out of all the pods. Your questions and guest are great! Thank you!
So glad you're liking the show!
Wish i could have found her sooner!!!
As someone with a borderline compulsive drinking behavior and lifelong depression, I do enjoy stuff like dry January and dry July. A few years ago I even found myself experiencing bursts of joy which id never experienced before.
Just a quick CZcams description change for this video: The book is "Dopamine Nation" not "Dopamine Addiction". Was having a few minutes of not being able to find the book until I scrolled back to the beginning of the video. Either way I now have the book downloaded on my Kindle. A lot of the things she said really hit home. Thanks Jon for bringing this guest on your show!
HELP! Crooked Media is contributing to my dopamine addiction. I see there's an episode...I tune in!
I usually don't comment on videos, but I wanna say thank you for creating this video and bringing Anna Lembke. It was really informative!
Such a great interview. Thank you! So much of what she explained makes sense. And somehow I simultaneously felt worse and better about my family’s screen time.🤣
I have worked within the field of addictions as a psychotherapist for a number of years and I hear the word “bored” A LOT. This is a big part that keeps folks hooked in (because of the body reducing it’s dopamine production as discussed in this episode). Relapse is a big part of the addiction process.
yeah I'm a formerly active addict, I've been good for 7 years now with only a brief 2 month relapse in year 2 following a broken bone, that I caught and stopped before it got out of hand. What she said about the balance being more towards the side of pain rather than pleasure is so true, and that boredom that you cite is something that I definitely used to say alot, and now I'm hearing out of the only friend I still have that is fighting with it still, the other ones I either cut off , or they died.
The thing that got me to change was to be honest with myself and to stop the cycle of negative self talk, it's a learned behavior that is probably the hardest thing to break. I still have addictive tendencies but towards way less harmful things. I made this comparison about phone addiction being almost as harmful as drug addiction and got laughed at just recently, so strange that there have all the sudden been all these articles and videos popping up confirming what I already believed to be true.
We're in a really precarious situation as a collective and this phone addiction is a real problem because no one can fathom getting rid of their phone. I'm in computer programming so I'm always at a desk on the internet, I dont stare at my phone but I do compulsively go to youtube, and through other things. This cycle is so paralyzing, and such a contributor to the learned helplessness of so many people these days. That's one thing I realized in my last run through rehab is that I was a prisoner of my own mind and my own negative thoughts, and having this constant access to information and a social engineering operation thats designed to command your attention and act on your lower human impulses, it's really contributing to the incompetence in society.
One can only control themselves too, addiction isnt a problem anyone can fix except for the addict themselves I truly believe after fighting addiction for 12 years. And addicts infamously never believe they have a problem until something terrible has happened, so buckle up for the future imo.
@@agny369 Thanks for this. Very enlightening.
One of the best interviews, thank you! (More like this!)
Jon - I needed this show now. Today. The topic is personal to me and the first 15 minutes of the talk is profound. Loved it. Thanks for this interview.
Ditto
Me: Wow, that's thought provoking. Also me: What's next on CZcams?
Thanks for inviting her to speak to us. Great info!
Happiness is not the same as pleasure. Less dopamine, more serotonin!
She was really great. Kind of human who’s Good for the World.
Dopamine is involved in learning. A very recent (a month ago) paper showed that mice who received a reward (food) after a cue (sound) had their dopamine levels increased - after the conditioning - not when they received the reward but when the hey heared the cue. That means rewards for efforts make people feel good when they face the effort - rewards for children's efforts in school creates adults who feel pleasure when they think about learning.
There's another neurotransmitter, though, called (not sure but slt) glutamate. The dopamine circuits create the glutamate circuits. Dopamine circuits can be reset in a couple of months but glutamate circuits require a couple of decades. Now ... imagine a society that rewards selfishness and greed ...
And people think there's such a thing as human nature ... no, there isn't - there's glutamate.
Great interview and subject! Thanks so much
This was so very informative. Thank you
wow.... here I am, sitting here, minding my own business, surrounded by 6 screens within 3 feet of me, AND playing League of Legends. Enjoying the content and then BAM called me right the fuck out lmao. Had a really good laugh.
Fun is not bad thing, its creative fo mind, but it shouldn't define you and your values, and other interests.
Alos listening Opera is a pleasure for ears.
Thanks! This was awesome information.
Wow, so good! Thank you both
Such good questions and answers! Thank you!
Yeah that’s awesome analysis of dopamine receptors using the cell phone, great experience with outlook when using your cell phone for long periods!
Explaining how and the impact of prolonged use of cell phones and causes problems that affects mental health issues!
Thank you for this information!
😮
I definitely recommend the 60 Minutes segment titled Brain Hacking, as well as the 2004 Frontline episode The Persuaders (both on a playlist I've titled Neuromarketing).
Thank you
@@uTubeAshby You're very welcome. I see this as the thing that will have the greatest affect of all on future generations, or at least the cultures that are to come. People need to know if they are choosing their future for themselves, or if someone else is doing it for them. You might also like The BBC miniseries, The Century of the Self and Frontline's The Persuaders. These things are all related. For over a century, the psychology of marketing has had influence over our culture. Would be nice if people understand better what it means that marketers have change and will continue changing our culture for profit.
Here are the top 10 happiest countries in 2022 and their score (out of 10), data from Gallup World Poll:
Finland- 7.821
Denmark- 7.636
Iceland- 7.557
Switzerland- 7.512
Netherlands- 7.415
Luxembourg- 7.404
Sweden- 7.384
Norway- 7.365
Israel- 7.364
New Zealand- 7.200
What the fuck is she talking about? The countries in which basic needs and beyond are most adequately met are the happiest.
From NZ I am sorry to say we have one of the highest youth suicide rates. But that started before smartphones, even the internet so something else is going on in our culture.
I am surprised to see us with the Nordic countries on a happiness poll.
This was such an interesting conversation. I do wonder about the pain/pleasure balance for chronic pain sufferers, as she speaks from the point of addiction and the 'gremlins' forcing balance on the pain side, but I'm not sure that is the experience of folks who are not addicted, but are dependent on medications or interventions to reduce pain. It just seems like the 'gremlin' analogy doesn't quite fit with the opposite form of unbalance, where they would similarly enforce equal and opposite pleasure. 🤷🏻♀️
I'd also like to propose a few interviews I'd love to see: Tricia Hersey of The Nap Ministry about her Rest as Resistance practice and Céline Samaan of The Slow Factory and her The Revolution is a School initiative and how social media both spreads and hampers their messages and efforts. And Imani Barbarin about how the chronic illness and disability community has created spaces for sharing information and building community on social media and how that has been especially vital since the pandemic started.
I agree with you.
I’ve been dealing with a very painful post-viral syndrome similar to long Covid, for years now. I’m not addicted to pain medication, but the chronic 24/7 severe pain has absolutely caused anxiety and depression. I’m very open to the psychosocial aspects of chronic pain, but this isn’t it. Now they want to blame all chronic pain on mental issues. They want to find an easy answer.
This should be essential viewing!
What an absolutely enlightening episode! It helps so much to know how we are being physiologically manipulated!
Thanks Ana and Jon :)
What a paradox your advertisers are beer .When you are talking about addictions 👏👏👏
She’s super smart, kind and down to earth. Excellent.
I really enjoyed this conversation. The part at27:00 on really got me. The pursuit of joy of the moment The simple gift of life. Thanks for the upload.
Her book is probably in the top 3 Important books I've ever read in regard to understanding myself and humanity in general. Really anyone and everyone over the age of 14 should read it. We just don't understand how our brains work and how we are all vulnerable to addiction...just because we all have dopamine.
What about other platforms like CZcams videos and podcasts? Do those fall in the same category as social media? Also is the dopamine release exclusive to phones or are iPads, laptops and computers the same? Thanks.
"People are very suggestible."
"Not me!"
Looks down, and somehow I'm playing Scrabble via muscle memory on my phone :D
But, seriously, I'm interested to know how I'm affected, as someone with reduced dopamine (aka ADHD). I know that I overuse my phone, and can dive into red wine just a little too readily, sometimes.
I feel like you should have done a poll on how many times we all looked at our phone during this episode.
Interesting that after deactivating your Twitter account you cannot reactivate it after a month. Seems like Twitter intentionally picked that length of time.
I hate the fact I have to carry a cell phone everywhere. I’ve always hated the phone. Society is set up so you have to carry that phone. I have to have it to log into my computer at work, check my bank account, etc. People freak out when they find out I left my phone at home and how dangerous it is. I figured I lived without it for 40 years, what’s another day or so.
Jon, this was a very enlightening convo. Thank you. I got the sense though that you, like me, really can’t imagine a 30-day fast, and even a 24-hour fast seems difficult and stressful. But that is a sure sign that we indeed have a problem!😅😬 I need my phone 24/7 for work also…..
Maybe send the video to your boss?
@@shiny_x3 I’m my boss. 😬🤷🏻♀️ I guess I’m a shitty boss.
Im curious. What work is it you need your phone for?
Loved her book. The mechanics of dopamine spike and withdrawal seem remarkably - and perhaps not coincidentally - similar to the vicious eating behavior cycle that leads to insulin resistance and its consequences.
I've been addicted to alot of things and quit. And relapsed. And recovered, and rehabbed. And on and on. Now I'm addicted to my phone. I waste way too much time. This is interesting even though it's easy to suss out on our on.
I think the book title is mis-quoted above. I could not find a book titled "Dopamine Addiction" by Dr. Lembke or any other author. What I did find is "Dopamine Nation" - Lembke, A. (2021) Dopamine nation: Finding balance in the age of indulgence. London, England: Headline Book Publishing. Is this the book you are discussing in this pod?
Would love to see Megan Phelps Roper on Offline. The power of social media in her life and the discussion on free speech, feel she would be a great guest
Why are so few people liking this video? Hitting too close to home? Very cogent speaker, thank you.
Great, great, great talk!
This is a very real problem high school teachers deal with every day, all day. There's no easy solution either. Banning phones during school hours. Sure...then I spend MORE of my day "policing" appropriate use. Students DO use them for "good" (typing, research), but they've also got social media pages open at the same time and notifications are literally constant.
Literally zero need for a phone or being online from k-12.
I could make a school k-12 and produce students for Harvard without having cellular phones or computers at said school.
Addictions are like germs. They don’t hide forever, but some take longer to discover and/or control with time! Nowadays, mobile devices are so addicting that they distract many people from talent!
Also, working at something way past the pain is common. She must be talking about the rich or something. I don't have money to let someone else do something for me. So I get to do them myself. I can see the rich having these issues. Anyone with discretionary income of 25% more than everything they need to pay yearly might have this issue.
The ideas discussed in this 'cast were many of the plot points underlying the movie "Wall-E." Also...read David Eggers' ""The Every," for a drill-down on how "wag the dog" is nourished and amplified by social media.
Let the fasting begin!!
Hearing this lady talk about how we can all pill our ways out of pain while battling a migraine is not ideal tbh.
Media fasting is a wise move.
As long as it comes with greater (hopefully positive) familial and sociaital interaction, but it also places you outside of the "loop" where people are always talking about whatever is the current media blitz darling of the day.
This was BRILLIANT
I just accept it as part of life now. It’s going to cause too much stress trying to fight smartphone use. It is what it is. If you work a job that requires you to focus for hours at a time you aren’t on your phone. The bottom line is don’t worry about smartphone addiction and just let it be and live your life around your smartphone it’s simple that way.
if I wasn't addicted to YT scrolling on Sunday afternoon; would not have seen this; really need this info
I'm not sure I buy this we live in abundance argument. At 13:80, Dr. Anna Lembke states that even the poorest of the poor have even more disposable income than at any other time in history. Would really like to see those statistics and what underlies them. My guess is she is considering a two-income households and not considering long-term cost like education, childcare, and housing. Could be wrong, but I'm highly skeptical of that claim.
So....if your body/brain has the balance-gremlins when you have too much pleasure, why is it when I have lots of pain they don't offset it and give me pleasure? EDITED: Ah, she does mention this at the end that "mild-to-moderate" pain can help push up your dopamine. Being in extreme pain all the time doesn't work.
Interesting choice to have the beer ad at the first break.
I have a bit issue with this. Text messaging is my phone. I don't like having to use a phone. I get forced into it from time to time. No home phone. How the hell did anyone contact me for a month?
Fantastic conversation. This Doctor’s The Goods.
25:45 there is some herd safety here being worth the cost. If your an artist and have to appeal to the aesthetic of people increasingly bored with everything; how do you engage? Also like you almost have to live in that addicted world then to produce apt work. Like warming yourself with, breathing in, bus exhaust (commuting on bike) so you dont freeze to death.
"The Hacking of the American Mind" by Robert Lustig is a great book on this.
also for the literati out there "Infinite Jest" by David Foster Wallace NEVER gets old in re the depressing nature of modern American life
The video is about dopamine/substance addiction and then you drop in a video of bluemoon. That shows how serious you are about this talk.
Thanks for this presentation.
Having dealt with many individuals who are using substances: most are healthy & happy & not depressed.
Individuals who abuse substances may have decreased dopamine levels.
However, there is more to substances use/abuse than only dopamine.
Disagree with her opinions. Fortunately, she admits this are correlations not causation
looking forward to this one. Really important topic.
Is dopamine a hormone? Or are they physical atoms or molecules that just transmit current?
She explains briefly at 1.50. Hormones and dopamine are both signaling molecules however. Hormones are coming from the endocrine system whilst dopamine is in the brain (neurotransmitters)
She explained it as transmission and reception, so I'm thinking that it is kind of both.
There is also the way drugs fit into those pain/pleasure receptors, and/or disrupt the transmitters that lends me to believe it is both, so doubly insidious.
I don't experience boredom; I guess I'm weird that way. But damn I've been addicted to (what I call) screen since I was a baby crawling up close to the B&W set.
I think that the loss of meaning and lack of agency with the widespread trustworthy source of truth is more than enough reason for the increase in teen suicides and post Partum depression. Knowing that your progeny will have even less agency than you have is akin to raising a child in slavery. Thank you for highlighting this important issue.
Like alot of what she says but don't agree that we don't have truly painful circumstances - as the addictions brings pain, bring loss to children, to families being impacted by constant striving for pleasure and stimulation... and giving less time for development of relationships and interactions with larger community, for purposeful activity that is internally gratifying.
Muy bueno!
Exercise, especially in nature, helps me to reset.
I don't use data on my phone. I limit my internet use to my house.
Oh god… what she describes about her behavior on youtube is literally my experience. Up to the point where I simply refresh the page, just to see what else it has to offer…
It‘s pretty bad, and something I‘m definitively aware I need changing.
when did I last realize I need to put the phone down? when I watched this episode 😅
I wish people without chronic pain would stop speaking for people with pain.
Okay, I'm adding a new portmanteau word to me vocabulary - boredom + vortex = boredtex.
44:00 Peace Pilgrim said if she realized she was doing something she shouldn’t, she would do a quick and complete relinquishment of it and advised people against the gradual tapering off of bad activities that was often the advice given at the time
Funny how science often agrees with the mystics and various religious sayings
As someone else pointed out, the title of the book is "Dopamine Nation" not "Dopamine Addiction." That should be fixed in the description.
If CZcams is an addiction so be it 🤷 I just discovered 500 yr old techniques of weaving and printing cloth in Okanawa. I found out a man 2 hrs away, whose heritage of slavery dates back to the estate he just purchased. Recycling materials (umbrellas) into designer handbags is a growing business. I'm learning more about painting techniques than university classes. Is that an addiction? Now we have the availability to find what is unique to our curiosities. It has dangerous potential as much as anything. If you have a doctorate perhaps celebrity court hearings are trite. So choose or delve wisely 🤔
I think you posted the wrong book title. I believe her book is "Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence".
I know I shouldn't read the comments, (more the fool I,) but I did and I'm struck by the umbrage some people felt by assuming the doctor said only rich, wealthy people are depressed and suicidal. This was one conversation and life isn't a one size fits all.
She mentioned disposable income as if many n.americans have it. Thats rich.
I'm disappointed taht she said it took about a month for the addicted brain to "feel better in many different ways". It can take a year for an addict to get their normal dopamine levels back. During that time you feel like a crazy person because you are sober and you can't figure out why you aren't able to feel happy yet. Its a major cause of relaps.
my problem is i put it in airplane mode and forget to take it off for days. Plus half the time i don't remember where i put it. As for my tab. its for reading. My think is the computer itself.
A lot of good information. But...the poorest of the poor have disposable income? I don't think that's right.
You kind of need a phone. The telephone part of it.
Holy crap how many products do you advertise
So you're saying I should put my phone down after watching thi...Hey look a new notification!
35:17 What constitutes addictive use of phone to her?
What an incredible load. This is one very narrow view of what people experience in "wealthy" nations and who suffers from depression. I cannot believe she would try to expand this dopamine theory as some panacea diagnosis for all people in the developed world.
I LOVE this episode!! She confirmed everything I was thinking and observing IRL. Tech is a tool like a hammer. Get off and be in the real world.
Phones are awful says the lady on my phone.
I used it to procrastinate big time
I'm touched by the authenticity in this content. A book with parallel subjects guided a new path in my life. "A Life Unplugged: Reclaiming Reality in a Digital Age" by Theodore Blaze
Thanks for this talk with Dr. Lembke. We all could use her advice.