NASCAR Fan Learns about the Lancia Delta S4 - The Car that Ended Group B
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- čas přidán 10. 11. 2022
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Abarth is to the Fiat group, what AMG is to Mercedes and M is to BMW. Carlo Abarth started up making exhaust systems and tuning Fiat cars.
When Lancia was up to show the 200 homologation models, they had 100 cars parked at the factory and the last 100 parked a few miles away, but the Lancia team insisted on having lunch with the FIA representative on their way to the second parking lot. During the lunch, they drove the cars from one lot to the other. FIA never found out.
Check out the Top Gear episode on this. Very funny.
Abarth also built their own cars, some very beautiful designs like the Abarth 205
There are many errors on your text.
Mostly through lack of observation - failure to pay attention to detail - and brainwashing
/manipulation ate the dog school that failed to teach you critical knowledge,
Congratulations on becoming ZOMBIE-fied
@@andrew_koala2974 Are you on the youtube channel you think you are on?
Lancia were such a bunch of pirates.
Amazing.
They forgot to mention two things.
- They had previoustly tested the engine, and in this setup on a bench it was running at 1000hp on 5 bar of boost.
-Due to the low weight and insane torque and traction, the car had 0-60 in 2.4 seconds on gravel.
The S4 didn't end Group B, it was Toivonen's accident that did it, he could've been driving any of the Group B cars at the time and still had the accident because there were more factors involved than simply the car. The end of the Group B started a few months earlier with Joaquim Santos' accident in Portugal, Henri and Sergio's death was just the last straw.
Still bc of the S4, I mean Lancia always wanted a lighter car and it result in a empty alluminuim rollcage wich is as solid as a coca cola can that's probably what killed Toivonen and his Co-Driver. Other cars like the 205 and Quattro had proper rollcage, only Lancia did that
That is a good point. Back then they drove from early morning to late in the evening and the cars were notoriously difficult to drive. And then there were the out of control crowds..
@@exomotors7380 hmm, Group B was kind of a mess in terms of regulations. You can say FIA killed Toivonen really for not having strict regulations in place regarding Group B cars.
It was from what I remember a Free for All kind of thing where car devs could do whatever they wanted, disregarding common sense at times.
Roll cage actually did survive the accident. Lancia mistake was to remove protection from below fuel tank which lead to it being punctured and leaking gas out leading to explosion.
And let's be fair here, with the amount of speed those cars are going around rally stages, any serious accident could be potential death scenario (look at Kubica crash in Italian rally, he was massively lucky to have survived that).
Wise man said: it's not speed that kills you, it's the opposite. Sudden stop kills you (ie. hitting wall).
If you like group B look at group B Portugal. At that time was considered the best Rallye in the world
It was also said Toivonen had been racing despite being ill with common cold and going all out despite being told to slow down. Resulting situation could be summed up as he was succesfull because of being "in the zone" while racing, but that was achieved thanks to total body exhaustion and moment of slip-up and mistake was bound to happen
The death of Henri Toivonen was a huge loss and he is well remembered in Finland. It was said that Henri could've escaped from the burning car, but died because he was trying to help his incapacitated co-driver to get out.
Henri was one of the greats, Finland has produced so many great rally drivers. I hope to one day be able to get involved with the amateur scene out there, it looks like a great deal of fun.
In the Fiat Heritage museum there's the final, never raced evolution of the Delta S4, the ECV. The car has a full carbon monocoque instead of the tubular frame and dropped the twincharging for sequential turbocharging: this engine is the 800hp beast the video talks about. It also has an early electronic central differential, which (evolved) made its way years later in the Alfa 155 V6 TI that won the DTM.
Fascinating stuff, thank You 👍😎
Sounds like it was the ultimate rally car
@@IWrocker To watch some famous drivers from Finland and Italy take Chris Harris for a ride in the Stratos, 037, Delta S4 etc, you only need this clip...
czcams.com/video/mXgWWNJVdYA/video.html
As a bonus the 800hp Group S Lancia Delta ECV also is there.
Plus, it's worth mentioning that the ECV engine used triflux system - an unusual intake and exhaust layout in which a four-banger had exhausts on both sides of cylinder head while intake was on top.
The Lancia ECV was a *Group S* rally car. Group S was slated to start in earnest in 1987 with the new cars racing alongside the Group B cars and in 1988 Group B would have been completely replaced by Group S. Group S never got a chance after they scrapped Group B at the end of 1986 so all those insane prototypes from Lancia, Audi, Peugeot etc etc remained on the prototype stage.
While there's little doubt they experimented with insane power outputs for Group S cars the regulations would only have allowed them to use 300hp maximum. That being said... the cars themselves had few regulations meaning that we would have seen pretty extreme cars even limited to 300hp.
@@McLarenMercedes the 300hp thing was a temporary thing, and Lancia made the ECV2 for that purpose. The ECV was the development for Group B.
lancia will always be in any italian heart no matter what, it's so iconic, i can garantee you tha every time a lancia integrale(s4 are not seeing on a regular road off course) pass by from kids to adults they just stop admiring it and listen the music from the engine, it's just sublime.
From an Italian born in 1975: true story. Problem is: the price for a decent one nowadays are simply crazy... Also, probably, my current 300hp Giulia drives better than the 215hp 30yo Integrale EVO2 :)
@Ian, you have to watch Jeremy Clarkson explain how Lancia did Beat Audi with the 037. Amazing behind the scenes story told in a Brilliant way by JC.
Agreed, that was epic. Those Italians,😂
Yes!! that’s an amazing video. Here’s the link: czcams.com/video/pzPhOcF0gR8/video.html
Yes! Great story
Vouch
But he needs to find the full version
The Stratos was another Lancia that was very successful in rallies from the mid 70s to early 80s. Beautiful looking cars.
Ferrari V6 engine.....
Just watch that juha kankkunen with lancia stratos in Finland rally. That was magical.
Stratos is the best looking car (especially Alitalia paint)
@@teanosuger yeah. Too bad Alitalia are no more though.
Lancia really made a lot of cool rally cars: Fulvia, Stratos, 037 and of course the Delta S4 and Integrale. I think the 037 might still be my favorite of those. But especially the S4 was pure madness on wheels. And some of these cars are still driven hard today, for example on hillclimb events.
They cheated so much that without cheating they would be just ordinary race cars.
Lancia is probably my favorite from the group B era. Lancia 037 is one of my favorite designs ever. Just beautiful. I wish I had one.
Ian, thanks for your great video! I'm from Finland and I was 12 years old when Henri Toivonen was killed. Henri was pretty much similar to the Finns and in rallying what Gilles Villeneuve and even Ayrton Senna were in Formula One. There is a Finnish-made documentary about Henri and his death on CZcams called "Vauhdin surma" (in English something like "Death of Speed"). You will be amazed to learn what allegedly and most likely went on behind the scenes...
Great information thank you! I’ll look into that 😎
@@IWrocker I'm happy to hear that, I think you should watch it. A tragic loss for the family, friends, colleagues and the sport in general. Henri is fondly remembered by his compatriots. 🏁💖
@@IWrocker Another thing that killed Group B was that drivers were finding severed fingers in their doors because fans tried touching the cars
He was a fucking badass!....Read my comment though buddy....
He also raced group C sports cars
Growing up I had three idols; Jarno Saarinen, the last private team world champion in motorcycling. He died in 1973 in Monza. Henri Toivonen. So he died in 1986 and Ayrton Senna... and he died in 1994.
There's a few S4 still racing in hillclimb events, they sound AMAZING! Also, Toivonen was a BEAST! What this dude did with this car was nothing short of epic. Great react, 69/420 haha
Bruno Iianello ´s Lancia delta S4 hillclimb version is insane that is beyond group b specs
@@Paganiproductions84 well, you should know that Alen's Delta S4 in the end of 1986 at Olympus rally already had 750hp, as he said himself. Only one that is beyond group B specs is.. modern tyres.
I'm pretty sure the story about the Lancia being almost as quick around a circuit as an F1 car is a myth. Even with 800HP and 4WD, it would've been much heavier, less aerodynamic and with less downforce than an F1 car. And it's not as if F1 cars of the mid 80s were short on power. The '83 Brabham BT52 with its BMW engine could be pushed to 1200-1400HP in qualifying trim and detuned to around 850HP for races.
I think he was talking about 0-60
monaco in the wet, 4wd and lots of slow corners...... I'm quite sure all gp B cars would have been quicker than F1 cars at places like monza & hockenheim as long as there was snow and ice present
@@exomotors7380 nah, I heard the myth before. It was supposedly almost as fast around Estoril.
'85-'86 F1 cars did 0-60 in about 3 seconds, topped out at 160mph, the S4 did 0-60 in 2.3 and topped out at 140, "almost" is doing some heavy lifting but on paper they're not far off.
I could be wrong but I heard there were two associated with F1... the first was about it doing a lap around Silverstone and had it been a quali lap it would have been just outside the top 10 and the other being it could do 0-60 on gravel the same as an F1 car on tarmac. Still, I was young and loved group B so believed them anyway.
Lancia were awesome during their rallying years. They still hold the record of 6 consecutive constructors titles from 1987 - 1992 with Deltas. Audi may have revolutionised rallying with 4WD in the Quattro but Lancia perfected it.
PS: When they say they didn't know what happened with the Toivonen accident, they mean they're not sure if he had a flat or some other mechanical problem or just lost control (which isn't unlikely, especially since he still had the flew), because there is full helicopter video footage of them crashing available on YT. And what the video didn't say was that the fuel tank was directly below the drivers seat, so removing the skit-plate especially there is definitely unthinkable nowadays ...
My mom bought a Delta in the early 80s. The 85 hp base model. Do I need to say I ALWAYS rooted for Lancia since then? Of course I was amazed when I learned about the S4 that Lancia was developing. And of course part of me is dreaming about owning one of the 37 or so road going S4:s produced. Or, more realistically, a 1992 Delta Integrale. But it's still a 30 year old car, so while a lot of people say it's the greatest hot hatch ever, surviving cars probably need LOTS of TLC to keep rolling by now. Or actually, if I got to pick any road going rally Lancia I would probably go for the 037 Stradale, because that thing is a BEAUTY!
Regarding turbos, the thing about the 80s is that regulators hadn't come up with a useful way to limit the power of turbo engines. Today they have figured out that if you set a limit on how much fuel that can pass through the turbo in a given time period, you limit turbo power. In the 80s, they tried things like limiting boost power, which at most brought power down form "Unbelievable" to "The car has HOW MANY horse powers, you said?".
In the 35+ years that have passed since the S4 was introduced, almost no one has produced another car that has both turbo and supercharger. That fascinates me a bit.
Oh, and have a look at this clip! Chris Harris gets a ride in four legendary cars, with actual 80s rally legends at the wheel. Lots of insights of how driving one of these beasts would have been. czcams.com/video/mXgWWNJVdYA/video.html
I'll just make this sweeping comment. Peugeot, while being an outlier in its own right, nailed it's delivery of the Group B rally kit assignment with the well rounded 205 T16. It remained closest to it's road going iteration among the marques in terms of proportion and driveability. For Peugeot, it was not all about brute force...but brisk mid-engined four wheel drive rallying with a touch of panache. For me, 205 T16 encapsulated the Group B rallying sweet-spot, achieving go-kart like handling with super fast timed stage deliveries without sacrificing crew safety....and without looking like a twin-charged heat sink on steroids. Of course the Intergrale HF4 more than salvaged Lancia's shattered honour in the ensuing years after Group B ban by bagging the most WRC wins ever for its phenomenal Group A outing....and providing a befitting coup de' grace for the legendary rally car builder that was Lancia.
hello am a 56 year old man from belgium .. i have seen toivonen driving .. he was the best ..
As a Finn this is so hard to watch still, I remember seeing this live on tv when it happened, so sad day it was. R.I.P. Henri
I was born in 1972, so, as you can imagine, the 80's were my golden years of youth when I loved and followed everything about motorsports, especially rallies, which was, and still is, a big thing here in Portugal. These videos bring back great old memories of a very special time in my life, leaving me with a feeling of nostalgia that I don't know whether to thank or curse for it! Anyway, great video.
Glad you found enjoyment here, thank you for watching 😎
14:20 Peugeot was managed by Jean Todt at that time ! The guy who also managed Ferrari F1 during Schumacher Era and won everything !
Jean Todt is one hell of a manager ! (He was also FIA head for some years)
And a sought after navigator, worked with numerous rally stars and champions.
Wow what a champion. Thanks for sharing 🎉
Back in the days they used to say, if you want to win hire a Finn
Toivonen, Kankkunen, Alen, Vatanen and many more..
This year rally champion Kalle Rovanperä🇫🇮💪
Ok ok....im agree... it's true
But "if the finn's want winn ....put they in a Italian car....."
In the 80s......😭😭😭
This time for Kalle it's a jokes....
It's like a PS game...in a plastic box
Henry Toivonen once said about the Lancia S4 that caused his death, too fast to drive and for the brain to comprehend. When Audi Quattro then the S1 was slashing the winnings, Peugeot came up with the 205 turbo 16 then E2 that started to take the winnings from Audi then Lancia, made that beast of a car the Lancia S4 to beat Peugeot then Audi was working on even more brutal car, the Quattro E2 that didn't have the chance to compete after cancelling Group B. There was no limits for the power of Group B cars, it was open to go as fast and as brutal as it can be, that was it's beauty but ironically what caused it's demise. Good memories.
Alfa Romeo once had a 164 Saloon - from the outside at least.
Inside was a 800 HP Formula One engine, it was RWD and only weight around 900 kgs. That thing is still one of the fastest saloons today.
Everyone loves the Stratos, but I prefer the 037 too, sounds great, looks great and just the right amount of bhp.
Group B was crazy, and among Group B craziness there was Lancia crazy.
For better or for worse, Lancia was the craziest ones.
You should check Jeremy Clarkson's documentary/tribute about Lancia.
They also sacrificed safety to keep the weight down , fiberglass panels on some cars , really built sub standard, think that had a lot to do with cancelling the group. Still amazing fantastic crazy times, also seen the RS200 and even the Austin metro rally version, you can't describe the sound , shakes you to the core , loved it.
Also Lancia made empty alluminuim rollcage wich is as solid as a coca cola can
@@exomotors7380 Fun fact: I once crashed a coca cola can into my forehead and it turned out to be far more substantial than I had anticipated
They sacrificed nothing, it was studied. The Delta S4 was part of the Lancia ECV project where ECV was standing for Experimental Composite Veichle.
Henri "Henkka" Toivonen was so great driver no matter what car he had, like Lancia S4,Opel Manta, even he had Porsche 911 as rallycar... And many More👍
So please, check out first some great tributevideo about Henri Toivonen, and after that The video "Lancia Delta S4 Harju EK Harri Toivonen" ( Henri's brother drives Lancia S4 in year 2016) that shows how much those crazy group B cars has respect 110% in nowdays🇮🇹🏁
Toivonen would have like Sebastian Löeb at his own rally career time, quite easily many many wins And champion titles etc , if this horrible accident wasn't happened.
Hello and geetings from Finland 🇫🇮
As you love the Group B stuff, I'd love to see you do a video on the Metro 6R4, another beast of a car and when Group B was cancelled, the engine from this small rally car ended up in the Jaguar XJ220!
My favourite was an earlier Lancia rally car the Stratos particularly driven by the great Markku Alen. My Mum worked in the motor trade so I spent my childhood around garages and dealerships. A total petrolhead long before I could drive 😂
In a Test from a newspaper back in the Day the Delta S4 ran a 0-60 in 2.4 Seconds on a Gravelroad.
I used to have an 86 Delta HF Turbo, while it's not quite the Intergrale or Evo, I can say that this car was bloody fun to drive, was very quick and handled better than most tings around at the time.
Top car
The drivers say the Group B cars themselves weren't too much, but the competitions driven with them were too demanding for the drivers.
Henri Toivonen Interview Juha Kankkunen
RC - In memory of Henri Toivonen
Juha Kankkunen ja Markku Alén muistelevat hurjia rallin B-ryhmän aikoja (Teknavi 2019)
Ian: Not sure if any video exists, but look up Dick Turner and the International Scout SS-II of the later 1970s rallying in the USA. Dick amazed and annoyed foreign car fans by finishing well at US rallies with a creatively modified SS-II running a hopped up 5.7 liter IH V8. Dick was a real character. Back when the SCCA ran tallying in the US there was a class for Jeeps And Scouts and similar smaller SUVs for a while. I hope someone has video of Dick Turner and his truck.
Also the fuel tanks were made stupidly thin like slightly thicker than a can, it was also placed under the seats of the driver/co driver to aid in weight distribution and the roll cage were made of a magnesium alloy and therefore extremely lightweight but highly flammable, effectively the delta S4 was a time bomb when it came to accidents
One interesting note is before they ended group b they were talking about starting a class even faster that would be run on paved roads only, the Ferrari 288 gto was actually being developed and built for the class but that all ended after that tragic season. The 288 gto was basically the base for what would be become the F40.
Karl / Carlo Abarth was an austrian motorcycle racer and entrepreneur (born and died in Vienna), growing up in south tyrol/IT. In the 50ies, he started his company tuning common small engines (mostly Fiat and
I've seen a couple of these along with a couple hf integrales when they do the Monte Carlo rally.
Abarth is like AMG or M division. Modding the fiats. We have the 595 and 695 around here, they sound really nice.
Now we need a morden day version of group B and make it more insane *chuckles menacingly* imagine what that'd be like
Can you imagine that Lancia was working on an even faster Group S car? It was named the Lancia ECV (Experimental Composite Vehicle) and was supposed to race in the 1987 Group S class. It had an improved (TriFlux) S4 engine which was twin-turbocharged instead of twin-charged and had a power output of at least 600hp+. The car of course never raced, but was brought back to life in recent years by the current owner and the original designer of that revolutionairy TriFlux engine.
That would have been well over a decade ago by Beppe Volta who died a few years ago. The ECV was not driven too hard as they had only one spare head casting and no foundry patterns to produce another. Chris Harris saw it in action at a Pirelli Tyre event about a decade ago and it was running at 800BHP with very short bursts as to not damage that head.
Hi Ian,
as ever so often you're spot on with "Abarth"! it's been a Car Manufacturer and tuning Enterprise, which then was bought and became part of the FIAT Family in 1971. Comparably like the alley ALPINA and BMW or AMG and Mercedes went down as time passed by!
After the Fusion of PSA (Peugeot Societe Anonyme) and FCA (FIAT Chrysler Automobiles) to "Stellantis" Group in 2020, Abarth as part of FIAT became part of Stellantis.
Today the Brand is used to build sporty FIAT Cars, the Logo shows a Scorpion, which represents the Zodiac Sign of the Founder "Carlo Abarth" (born 1908 in Vienna, died 1979 in Vienna).
At the end of WW1, South tyrol, where Carlo Abarths Father was living, was lost by Austria, and became an Italian Province. The Citizens where given the choice of one of the two Nationalities, and his father opted for "italian", which made Carlo Abarth an Italian Citizen too.
Thanks for the Awesome Video! Keep it up!
Kind regards from here in innsbruck! 👍
1985 a German Car Journalist say over the Lancia Delta S4(Roadversion) you must have a very strong personality when you spent 165K on a car only to see a VW Golf GTI set the left indicator on the Autobahn behind you and want pass because he is faster. Italien Cars at that Time are notorios for being unreliable and Lancia(Fiat group) was the peak. In my opinion the Delta Integrale was one of the best looking Hatchbacks of all Time.
The s4 then hits the dirt and no more golf.
It’s not an F1
@@fugawiaus sure i read this 1985 in a comparing Test of the Audi Sport Quattro, Peogeot 205 turbo 16v and the Lancia Delta S4 and what he write was 37years ago right. At that Time italien cars has a realy bad reputation small example a great car like the Lancia Stratos nobody want buy one at the and you can get a brand new one in germany for less than 4000£ or 15K DM or 7000$.
@@mariojakel5544 well, let’s face it, Italian cars are not exactly known for their high quality.
But anyone comparing a specialist homologated rally car to a road car on the highway is seriously kidding themselves. Comparing an homologated lancia to an homologated Quattro to an homologated rs200 would be a bit fairer. Road going homologated cars are heavier than the race equivalents and massively de-tuned with severely reduced power and torque.
They could wind the race cars up to 800hp.
Let’s test the data and see whether the reporter lied.
Lancia delta s4 road car.
1.8l 4cyl twin cam supercharged/turbocharged
250hp/186kw
0-100 6sec
225kph/140mph top speed
Golf gti 85
1.8 4cyl single over head cam 2v injection
82kw/110hp
0-100 10.3 sec
186klm/115mph top speed
Somehow I don’t believe the reporter. He made it up or was just a terrible driver.
@@fugawiaus today i take every homologated group B car from a FSO polonez over a skoda to a Ferrari 288GTO or a Porsche 959, Opel Manta 400i ...
in this test it was a joke and the Golf GTI was the 16v with 139hp and 206km/h Topspeed first version of the S4 =205km/h Topspeed later 215km/h + get better interior(Alcantara)
@@mariojakel5544 the lancia still had so much more power. Gearings different as well. I think the reporter needs to learn to drive a manual.
In 2011, Henri Toivonen's younger brother Harri received certain information about what led to his brother's accident in the Corsica rally. The gas pedal was stuck. The car fell into a ravine and hit a tree rear-first.
That would be curious. I have the parts books and exploded view drawings of the S4 (Stradale), and especially the pedalbox is completely overdesigned and even suspended in needle bearings. Having studied the drawing I find it hard to imagine that, of all things that can go wrong, the pedal would be stuck. Perhaps the retaining spring on the throttle body broke keeping it wide open?
If you look at the helicopter images of him slicing through the mountains at ungodly speeds and fantastic style, and then suddenly, in only a modest corner , diving full speed straight ahead into a wooded ravine, always made me think of a black-out or, perhaps, a puncture. There are no skid marks, no visible efforts to keep the car under control, nothing. I would think that in anything but a sudden loss of counsiousness or the most dramatic machanical failure, Toivonen with his legendary handling skills and lighning fast reaction would at least have tried to keep the car under control.
Among many rumours and speculations, here's the most credible reconstruction. The story is as follows: in February 1986 (about a week before the Monte Carlo rally stage) Toivonen tried the most recent evolution of the S4 on the Estoril circuit in Portugal (which was scheduled for F1 the following September). The purpose of the test was to see the maximum potential of the car on tarmac so it was consequently pushed to the limits. The turbo compressor was set to its limit (2.2 bar) to exert a total amount of (approx) 650 Hp from the engine. Since it was a private test, there's no official timing in the records. But it came out later that the best time set by the S4 was 1 : 18.125
Well, the following September the F1 pole position was Senna's 1 : 16.673 which means that Toivonen had been less than a second and a half slower than the fastest F1 car. The Lancia S4 would have qualified sixth on the grid of F1 on that circuit that year.
Henri Toivonen was trakrecer! Only driver who really tried to get all performance out of the car
If you want to see how fast it looks like from the inside, look up Chris Harris and Lancia on youtube. Harris is a racing driver and one of the new Top gear hosts (the only one who knows something about cars) and that man can really drive. He got to be a passenger in multiple different legendary rally cars, including Lancias driven by multiple rally champions (for some funny reasons there were quite a few fast Finns :P). The look on his face and the speeds that those cars are driven and afterwards the drivers are saying that naah, we were just cruising.
My two favourite group B cars were the short Quattro and the 205 T16.
Saw them all from the group B era in the forests around Britain.
The Delta s4 had 450hp at its debut in 1985, the following year it had 530hp on a 970kg car
Never drove this but owned 205 Rallye and Fiat 135tc Abarth, drove Integrale 2, owned Alfa 75 turbo Evoluzione, turbo Alpine Renault, Sierra RS. The 75 was a bullet, the Alpine a widowmaker. The 205 could be driven as hard as you wanted and was a joy. The Integrale was best, by far. It literally felt underpowered in every situation at 230hp.
The cars did not end the Rallye cars. The spectators ended the corsa.
Regarding the Toivonnen statement (car to fast): Walther Röhrl already said something similar a few years earlier about the (significantly slower) Audi Quattro S1:
„Im Prinzip bist du bei dem Auto (Audi S1) mit dem Denken schon zu langsam. “ „Das ist kein physikalisches Fahrgerät, das ist ein Krankenfahrstuhl! “
roughly translated:
"For this car (S1) you are to slow for thinking. This is no physical driving device, it is an elevator into hospital!"
Love the channel and love the variety of content! I started watching for the F1 stuff but love this as well keep it up!
From the look the 037 will always be my favorite of the lancias, but damn that supercharger/turbocharger combination is just brilliant.
A mid mounted 1.75 lt twin cam inline 4 cylinders, super and turbo charged, capable of 600 bhp in dry tarmac configuration… packed in a 890 kg, 4WD carbon fibre and Kevlar monster.
The fuel tanks shoved under driver and co driver seats, to help balancing weight. Capable of 0-60 in 2.5 sec. On gravel.
A car fast enough go scare some of the best rally drivers to ever exist.
As Juha Kankkunen once said, “WRC is for boys. Group B was for men”.
The 80’s were pure madness.
Thanks bro! What Henry Toivonen meant, was that they had driven in just one day more kilometers/miles than during the whole WRC Rally in Jyväskylä!!! You are right about the bhp/horse powers. Hannu Mikkola said they could easily have pulled out like 800 Hp from the Audi Quattro, but it was just "too dangerous" yeah, right! I think it was already dangerous enough! There are like 12 original versions of the Audi Quattro S1 E2 left. There was an auction at Sotheby`s couple weeks ago, where they sold Hannu Mikkola`s original Audi Quattro S1 E2. Guess the price? And also a Lancia 037 Rally-version (Henry Toivonen, Walter Röhl, Markku Alen etc.) And Henry Toivonen`s original Lancia Delta S4. So cars, they actually used/drive at a Group B-rally. Better start saving for the next auction😁😁. Best Regards from Finland! By the way, Juha Kankkunen, 4 time WRC-Rally World Champion, has all/every different type/model Group B-car in his private collection. The video is in Finnish, but you got the idea. czcams.com/video/T1nXgdXGWkk/video.html
In interviews in Finnish, Toivonen and Alen were never satisfied with the S4 engine and drivability. The development of the car stopped when the information about the transfer to the A group came.
Alen said about Stratos: "really nice car to drive" and for Delta: "you kinda could manage it"
It made me wonder if Audi deliberately make the quattro super understeer to make it safer OAO
@@Basics_of_Gameology its physics. Heavy engine in front of the front axle = understeer. They tried to better this, with short wheelbase on the quattro s1.
@@DKlegacyRS I know, but I am wondering, if Lancia delta street car is front wheel drive front engine, they engineered this to be mid engine and four wheel drive. That means the engine can be anywhere. But Audi decided to stick to front engine and mount it in front of the axle to make it even more understeer 🤔
@@Basics_of_Gameology its comes from the way Audi bilds cars. Its really old school layout. Most front wheel drive cars have the engine kind of on the front axle. But Audi have the engine fully in front of the front axle. Citroen made a group B rallycar with the audi engine layout. It was so bad, that they destroyed nearley all of them in shame
@@DKlegacyRS
Sport Quattro first (Corsica '84 - New Zealand '85) and Quattro S1 then (Argentine '85 - Portugal '86) .
Very understeering cars both. They were clearly surpassed first by Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 and then also by the Lancia Delta S4, with their engines in a central-rear position.
The Peugeot 205 T16 was the most successful group B car by far. It has 16 rally and 2 driver and manufacturer championships wins, against Audi which had won 13 races and a single manufacturer championship.
The S4 was not solely to blame for the end of group B. All of these monster cars had their quirks. On March 5, 1986, for example, the Portuguese driver Joaquím Santos slid in a Ford RS200 at the Portugal Rally near Sintra, as was usual at the events at the time, uncontrolled crowd of spectators along the course after having to dodge some careless spectators on the course. In this accident, three people (a 30-year-old woman and her children, aged seven and ten) were killed and 31 seriously injured.
And the Swiss Formula 1 driver Marc Surer also had a serious accident with a Ford RS200 on the Schottenring, which was a test at the Hessen Rally of the same year in Germany. His co-driver Michel Wyder was killed by a side impact with a tree in the burning Ford.
It was Just to fast.
Lancia is the best Rally manufacturer of all time. 30 years of making legend!
72' - Fluvia
75' - Stratos
82' - 037 Stradale
85' - Delta S4 Corsa
88' - Delta Intégrale
90' - Delta Intégrale EVO2
Rip Lancia.
Nice to see you like Lancia cars. Stellantis says Delta will be back ! Stay tuned bro
Ciao from Italia
Also Stratos is another impressive car! Driven by "the dragon" Sandro Munari
S4 max power was 1015hp test bench. (5bar). Markku alen said that last race he had over 600hp. Harri toivonen said that the reason to henri accident was stuck trottle because the floor metal was so thin. It was happen before and after the accident.thats why there was no braking marks. But we never know the truth.
Thanks ing. Lombardi for this engine! Greetings from Italy
The integrale Evo is THE scariest road car I have been in. Amazing car and it was a LH drive
15:19 Left guy is Jean Todt, ex FIA boss 09-21 and Ferrari F1 Team General Manager 94-07 and CEO/Special Advisor 04-09. (Schumacher era was 96-06.)
The purpose of the group B was having a model for the road transform in a rally car but almost all of the constructors take the system upside down, they developp a rallye car and then make a road version of them... The FIA made some choice that lead to this crazy group B. First no more power limit, second only 200 model for the road must be build for a rally version and finally no change to the rules within five years.
There is a episode of Grand Tour Lancia vs Audi explaining what happened then... This was a crazy era...
Group B... that was insanity on four wheels. When I was a kid, I loved it. I didn't realized how dangerous it was back than. Mouton, Röhrl, the Audi S1 .... and it only got more insane every year. Walther Röhrl once said that "if you think, you are too slow for these cars". Spectacular engineering, but just asking for trouble.
that picture of the burnt up s4 after the crash is very famous,
I wish group b put more focus on safety, it might still be around today
As I've mentioned before on one of your videos, you don't get any better than a Lancia Delta HF Integrale. Iconic, beautiful, quick AF. Should be an AF Integrale!
I remember watching group b as a kid.. it was the most insane and exciting motor sport of the 80’s, the cars were absolutely bonkers and the drivers were fearless magicians..
Apart from the VW golf GTI, VW golf GTI (16v), Opel Kadet D GTE, Open Kadet E GSI (16v), Opel Astra GSI (16v), you where the man if you owned a Peugout 205 GTI / MI16.
awesome wheels, there was a cool executed body kit giving the car appearance of being a muscle car.
It is crazy that there was a plan for new category with much more advanced rally cars which was cancelled parallel to Gr.B withdraw.
The novelty back then was the use of CAD to precisely calculate the right dimensions - immensely expensive in the 80ies.
I prefer the 205, because it was less prototype than the S4, but the delta HF integral was a real aesthetic success. I had the chance to see these monsters.
Abarth is a independent tuning house from Italy, mostly working on cars from the fiat group.
Problem was not only power, but safety. This car had the fuel tank that went up to the bottom of the pilot seat. But it was a masterpiece, accelaration 0-100 km/h in 2.7s, 0-200 km/h in 8 seconds. Take a look also at the 2nd generation delta engine, the Triflux. In liue of a supercharge and turbo, they replaced with two small turbos but in a cross flow intake-outake.
The Lancia Delta HF Integrale was/is a beast of a car having 220 hp stock, awesome wheels but also a rare car even back then.
the Ford escort RS Cosworth, Ford Sierra Cosworth also had 220hp stock, consumer version, 4 x 4. also world champion Rally cars.
hard to ensure as starting driver.
A friend of mine had a Delta Integrale in the late 90s. He liked the car but it did suffer with typical Lancia problems, like you go to switch on the lights or turn signals and it's 50/50 whether the lights come on or the switch comes off in your hand.
Haha 😂
Toivonen wasn't just pro and skilled. He was one of the very finest.
Quickest of the lot.
One of the drivers for Lancia was Markku Alén, he said that the Lancia produced like 650 horsepower.
A friends dad used to race in rally cars at that time but never with a group B car. He did try out a B car though and thought it was way crazy.
Like all car racing rally is inherently dangerous. What makes rally dangerous is the usage of public roads with almost no run of zones, no barriers and extremely volatile road surface. The speed is nowhere near other sports car racing but the combination of all this makes it both spectacular and dangerous.
Rally is a weird sport that has made lots of widows. Cheers 🍺
Nice video, the Delta Family was beast and the Lancia was almost brutal in those days, with the 037, Stratos... Oh by the way, the correct pronunciation of Lancia sounds more like "Lancha"
I had the Integrale 8v Kat, and the 16v. I never fancied having an Evo.
By far the sweetest handling cars I've ever driven. Got to keep them serviced and maintained. Got to keep them in a garage or they'll rust. They're not noisy from a mile away, like the Impreza or Lancer. They'll stay with anything on twisty British roads.
To them, the Delta S4 is the mad uncle of the family.
Check out the Lancia ECV2.
why not the evo. i had one with 320 HP and it was such a fun car
This is one of my favorite cars of all time. I am currently building an RC car version of this with a hand painted body in the martini livery.
The 037 is one of the prettyes cars ever buildt. I would not want to own one, but I wish I bought a Delta back when they were cheap... I once got to drive a rally car converted to a family car with back seat and door panels and everything you would expect in a early 90s car, and I want one. It was not the Group B monster, but the "ordinary" rally version, and the last real Lancia.
450hp is the "basic" of the power, they sometimes used nearly 600hp on it but it wont last too long.. this was told by rally legend Markku alên who frove S4 back then. also in 2016 if i remember right, in neste rally finland Henri toivonen's brother drove Henri's S4 in Harju stage as show run... nobody asked but he screwed up the boost on its turbos to get more power, he said this himself :D (by screwed up, i mean he turned up the boost..) there is simply screw for regulating turbo boost :)
Finnish driver after Finnish driver. This year we got another world champion from Kalle Rovanperä(the youngest champion ever) who is the son of WRC driver Harri Rovanperä. This dude started driving a rally car before he could walk. :)
Martin Schance's 4wd Ford Escort rallycross car actually out accelerated contemporary F1 cars, and when Group B folded a lot of the B cars ended up in rallycross. You really need to check out some footage from rallycross, it's rally but with bumper to bumper fighting.
That Ford RS 200 was also a beast.
8:20 on - they are probably talking about finite element stress modelling of the design - not telemetry. That was cutting edge tech in aerospace at that time.
My favorite Lancia isn't even one of their rally cars, they've made a fair bit of oddball cars, but the one I really love is the Lancia Thema 8.32
Where the 8 stands for 8 cylinders, and 32 for 32 valves, as Lancia had a deal with Ferrari, so it has a Ferrari V8 engine in a FWD family sedan, with a unique rear wing, the trunk lid looks normal until you get to about 60kph I think it is, where a wing suddenly rises up from the trunk lid, you also got other versions of the Thema, like a Turbo version, and even a Integrale version.
Friend of mine used to have the Turbo version of the Thema, and it was decently quick, but they also cooperated with Fiat, so there was a Fiat Chroma that looked fairly identical to the Thema as well.
Thema, the ultimate sleeper. I wish Australia got the Lancias New Zealand did.
There is an interesting doco about how that particular crash changed rally. You’ll recognise that brick wall they went through.
This video is missing something. Drivers like Röhrl and many others outright refused to drive, after this and also other previous accidents, which also lead to the death of bystanders. They were one of the driving force to stop this madness. And he said the same thing with the latest Audi S1E2 model , which also had around the same horse power (550). There is an interview, were he says that "if you start to think, you are already off the road". Walter is only alive because he never pushed too far, the reason for it being that he has an eidetic memory. He was focused on driving very clean. He was never attending a party drinking beer, instead he was sitting in his hotel room, driving the routes in his head along with the pace note from his codriver, preparing himself.
I watched an interview where he said that he still today has nightmares where he drives through those crowds...
After the RS2000 crash in Portugal the manufacurers forced the drivers to dont slow down because of the crowds...they told the drivers: if they don't move it is theire fault...crazy times...that did cost too many lives..
And yes for me Röhrl is anarguably the best racedriver ever!
Walter, in his 70s, did a couple of Monte stages in the 037 - and was only a couple of seconds off his stage winning times in the '80s. The man is a machine!
The Lancia more or less keeping up with a f1 car of the time, in what is implied to be the same conditions, is sadly a myth. As is reasonably obvious to those that know a bit about both sports at the time and/or a bit of physics. But its a great myth and fun story!
Yes. Abarth are like Shelby with the ford. Just a performance and dress up company for many manufacturers including Jeep, mopar, opel, ram etc.
For a storytime video you should check out the video: Clarkson best rallymatch: 1983 Audi Quattro Vs. Lancia 073.
Also the Lancia S4 is still being used in European Hillclimb races, Bruno Ianello owns multiple cars with different set ups! The car he uses the most is called the Lioness and apparently the sweet spot in hp is between 600 and 650 hp and is tuned to his preference. It runs in the classes with Porsche GT3 racecars, tuned mitsubishi Evo lancers and such and wins occasionally.
I have seen some hillclimbs and the old cars are awesome in the dry! When it is wet you can see the newer cars with electronic tc and abs getting the upper hand.
I remember watching group bs in ireland back in the day my fav was the Peugeot t16
when the s4 drove 800hp, they put about 5bar (72.5 psi) in a 1.8l engine which caused the daily maintenance
Not only were the gas tanks unshielded and made from thin aluminum, they were right under the seats! That coupled with the thinner rollcage made it rather easy for branches to perforate the vehicle as it left the track at around 80mph on a high corner and came down on top of the trees below. Even the riskiest most aggressive drivers admitted that to fears that Lancia wasn't doing enough for safety. Though most of that responsibility ultimately came down on group B and the regulatory board behind it for encouraging such actions.
If you thinking of buying a model Lancia delta try IXO. (about $55) or depending how fussy you are about accuracy could run upto $250! size 1/18th or 1/24tth. The very best models are made by the German manufacturer CMC (they dont do a Lancia Delta Integrale) and they are collectors items running, dependant on model from $600 to £900!! and are highly prized.