The End of Austria-Hungary: Treaty of Saint-Germain 1919
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2019
- The Treaty of Versailles between the Allies and Germany was only one of the peace treaties that followed the defeat of the Central Powers. The new Austrian republic, one of the countries that emerged from the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, also tried to get a favorable deal with the Allies in Paris in 1919. Like Versailles, the Treaty of Saint-Germain caused an outcry across the country.
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» SOURCES
De Martonne, Emmanuel. Le traité de Saint-Germain et le démembrement de l'Autriche (1920)
Haslinger, Peter: Saint-Germain, Treaty of , in: 1914-1918-online. International Encyclopedia of the First World War, ed. by Ute Daniel, Peter Gatrell, Oliver Janz, Heather Jones, Jennifer Keene, Alan Kramer, and Bill Nasson, issued by Freie Universität Berlin, Berlin 2016-12-06.
Gerwarth, Robert. The Vanquished. Why the First World War Failed to End, 1917-1923 (Penguin, 2017).
Macmillan, Margaret. The Peacemakers: Six Months that Changed the World (London: John Murray, 2001).
Canis, Konrad: „Die bedrängte Großmacht. Österreich-Ungarn und das europäische Mächtesystem 1866/67-1914“ Paderborn 2016.
Ermacora, Felix: „Der unbewältigte Frieden St. Germain und die Folgen - 1919 - 1989“, Wien 1989.
Hobek, Martin: „Der Rest ist Österreich! zum Vertrag von Saint-Germain-en-Laye 1919“, Wien 1999.
Holzer, Anton: „Die erkämpfte Republik 1918/19 in Fotografien“ Wien Museum - Ausstellungskatalog, Wien 2019. (abgekürzt als Bildband)
Olechowski, Thomas (u.a.): „Rechts- und Verfassungsgeschichte“ 4. Auflage, Wien 2016.
Rathmanner, Laura: „Die Reparationskommission nach dem Staatsvertrag von St. Germain“ Wien 2016.
Stadler, Rudolph K.: „Die Gründung der Republik“, S. 82. Wien 1989.
Stadler, Gerhard: „Was als Österreich übrig blieb -Von Mai bis September 1919: Der lange, mühsame Weg zum Staatsvertrag von Saint-Germain“, unter: austria-forum.org/af/Wissenss..., 11.08.2019.
Zollinger, Manfred: „L’Autriche, c’est moi? Georges Clemenceau, das neue Österreich und das Werden eines Mythos“, in: Karner, Stefan (Hrsg.): Österreich - 90 Jahre Republik. Beitragsband der Ausstellung im Parlament. Innsbruck/Wien u.a. 2008, 621-632.
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Presented by: Jesse Alexander
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I Never clicked so fast by the way i was waiting for this
Can’t wait for 16 days in Berlin
@@warholhille1518 Neither can we!
Will there be theater screenings in America, like the documentary They Shall Not Grow Old? If so, you have more of my respect.
With Steiner's counteroffensive, everything will be back in order
Allies: "Alright Austria you can have your independence, but no submarines!"
Austria, the landlocked mountain nation: "wat"
No not the great Danubian submarine fleet.
imagine the reaction of Conrad von Hotzendorff!
Who knows... bubs in mountain lakes may be deadly...
I mean. Bolivia apperantly have a a navy so... Uh... Idk?...
@@strikeforce1500 Bolivia had sea access before it lost it to Chile so yea
The British and French reeeeaaalllly know how to re-draw borders in a way which will cause resentment and conflict.
It's our superpower
Oh yeah
Just look at Africa and Middle East.
And Europe post both wars
@@riograndedosulball248 That was the bloody Soviets
This gives the German annexation of Austria in the 30s a new perspective.
It seemed less of a typical "annexation" than a mutually agreed union they'd both wanted for decades
There’s a lot they don’t teach you in school.
Agreed, I had never heard about this background to it. I'm going to Patreon these guys for a few months at least, I am learning things here.
@@Legitpenguins99 Well, during the interwar period the austrian state tried to somewhat succesfully implemet the idea of an austrian nationality. So approval of the Anschluss idea was somewhat decreasing leading up to 1938
@@louisadaway1716 ,
Part that most miss. And the Prussians never forgot. Is Austria was(pre history/ Roman era) Celtic. The northern Germans did not ever want to let go of that ideal.
Allies: "Ok Austria you're landlocked now and also you can't have submarines."
One weirdo who was going to put a submarine in the Danube River: "bruh..."
ROFL! 🤣 😂 😅
Fun fact: Many years ago a rich guy wanted tu buy an old soviet sub and use it as a floating restaurant on the danube, but he was not allowed to import it, because this restriction is slill law.
@@peterstadlmaier3107 cool idea. but is there a way around it? like just remove the parts that allows it to stay submerged?
@@ilikedota5 Unlikely in Austria
I could imagine a scenario where Austria joined Germany in a federation of sorts (just like the dual monarchy) , only for the Germans to build subs and say they're Austrian
Phew! Austria is forbidden to have submarines. I was worried about a large Austrian U-boat fleet roaming the Mediterranean.
ROFL! 🤣 😂 😅
I'm imagining a mighty fleet of submarines trying to navigate up and down the Danube 😂😂
Well someone didn’t want a sequel to the Sound Of Music. Captain Von Trapp was a submarine captain.
The real danger is the holy trinity of Switzerland, Mongolia and the Vatican state.
@@Andersl201 Even more that Mongolia has a naval with 4 dudes. That's one strong naval right there.
What I think deserves notice and wasn't mentioned in the video is an absolute mess that this treaty has made when dealing with citizenships after breaking up this multi-national state.
Basically, a person got assigned a citizenship according to his place of residence (regardless if it was long-term or temporary) on 1st January 1911. Bear in mind that this also applied to entire families if its head happened to be the only male of full age.
As an example: remember how Austria-Hungary annexed Bosnia in 1908? Well, the place happened to be full with Austro-Hungarian military police in 1911 and as a result, thousands of people who served as an occupying force there became Yugoslav citizens after Saint-Germain.
Imagine if youre an Austrian ans someone hands you a yugoslav citizenship over
good point, should fit that in another episode
The Austrians to my knoweledge had by this point been completely driven out by the serbian royal army with the help of the state of slovenes croats and serbs, the remaining austrian soliders and police were essentialy bandits.
@@drFocak That's the point - they got assigned their nationality by their residence in *1911* . That means that they probably didn't live there any more in 1919 but still counted as Yugoslav citizens.
@@TheGreatWar also, the map showing "the Austrian half of the empire" with Bosnia uncolored may give the impression that it belonged to the "Hungarian half" - which is certainly not the case
'There was noone with really sound knowledge and experience, and the Italians were very difficult'
sounds like the entire war...
A very astute observation!
Well, imagine this scenario: your country is coming out of a series of independence wars hard fought in the name of freedom against pretty much the most powerful European continental empire. In the struggle your homeland has been bled of both men and resources and your allies have constantly given you the middle finger signing separate treaties with your enemy, because your country has little influence and is young and still too fragmented to count.
In 1919, after humanity's bloodiest war in which your fledgeling nation has been dragged with very clear promises, those same promises are once again not fulfilled... now it's pretty hard to resist the urge to become "very difficult" at that point... lol
And sadly this was one of the strong points on which baldy idiot Mr. M. was able to build his stinking pile of criminal garbage on
@@PickBit I guess you're talking about Italy there. First of all, you werent dragged into the war. You had an alliance with the axis and didnt honour it. And then when it was clear who will win the war, you declared war on your former allies so you could gain some cheap territory. And you complain why your backstabbing Italy wasnt viewed that favourably and why nobody accepts your pouting and childish tantrums.
@jpc1918 The Triple Alliance was a defensive pact, and both Austria and Germany attacked first. Also Italy was completely dependent on Allied resources and wished to incorporate the Austrian lands with Italian majority. It wasn't betrayal, and probably was the best choice (aside remaining neutral).
@jpc1918 The "alliance" was of a defensive nature Germany and Austria declared war therefore there was nothing to "honor" and no betrayal. Moreover that so called alliance was worth less than toilet paper. The Austrian minister of war urged the Emperor to break it and declare war on Italy several times, he refused only because he wanted to wait for an excuse to come up to save face and there are written documents that prove this.
Austrian empire: *gets dismantled and has limits making it so it can’t reunite*
Hoi4 players: YOUR OPINION IS TRASH
don't mind me, just *reforming the entire austro-hungarian empire* within 4 years under the *hungarian government*
I legitimately watched restoring A-H Hoi4 just before this video
@Fabian Kirchgessner HOI 4 is trash and cringe
@@simonk.6349 no u
@@nexton4613 😩
So the Balkans pre-WWI were a powder keg under the dominance of the Austria-Hungarian Empire, but breaking it into a dozen opposing nations should lead to permanent peace. Sounds legit.
Maybe they were a powder keg *because* of occupying empires like austria hungary ?
how were they a powderkeg because of royalty of all things ?
What? If anything they should be divided into even more states so self-determination would be fully achieved, just like balkan today.
The Balkans every today are a powder keg just waiting to blow up.
The “Balkan mess” happened because of Ottoman Empire and the corrupt ideology of nationalism.
Ironic that a guy named Bauer, was against Austria becoming a peasant country.
just because he's named farmer doesn't mean he wants to be controlled by a mob of peasants.
"I lead others to a treasure i cannot possess"
For the non-German speakers: Bauer= farmer.
I thought Bauer meant builder. Oopsie.
Reminds me of all the Fennomans with Swedish names (Snellman, Gripenberg, Renvall, Forsman etc.) who adopted and spearheaded the Finnish national identity after being conquered by Russia.
"Swedes we are not,
Russians we cannot become,
therefore Finns we must be."
And then one day, for no reason at all, an Austrian painter came to power.
@@Thatguy-ve4dx And because lots of germans in this time really belived in his ideology.
There is no such thing as an "unfair" peace treaty. Don't sign it if you don't like the terms.
@@jameskresl So if somone would hold someone dear to you hostage and would demand from you to sign your belongings over to him, or else,... you wouldn't think of it as unfair? That's awesome. I'd love to do business with you some time.
@@Thatguy-ve4dx Yet Germany had imposed harsher conditions against France following the Franco-Prussia War in 1871 and then again with Russia in 1918. The Treaty of Versailles was one of the least mild of the original 5 peace treaties.
@@AgendaFiles No they didn't. 1871 was much milder in terms
How does Jessie Alexander have a fine NORTH American accent, yet excellent pronunciation of the French and German phrases? I AM JEALOUS!!!
There was once more German speakers in the USA which I think is why Germans who become fluent in English show little trace of a German accent. That and, I have heard, English and German are more alike than they seem to be when only listening to how they sound
@@danam0228 German and English are very similar in fact especially the vocabulary. Just the english grammar is a bit weird to be honest.
I'm pretty sure that he is Canadian.
He's Canadian, but also studied in Vienna. So he speaks English, French, German, and if I remember correctly some Russian?
you are correct, Dan.
Now this is an interesting episode for me!
Being ethnic German in Hungary I visited a German school and when we learned basic geography, I never understood: If Germany and Austria both speak German, why are they not one country? Boy, did I know little of history back then!
Here in Hungary we never really learn about the Saint-Germain treaty (Trianon ofc is the major topic), so a lot of questions actually rose up in my mind (and generally in the people's heads). We always tought (and think - a popular thing to rant), that Austria received mild punishment, compared to Hungary, altough it was the Austrian part, which wanted the war.
This episode actually cleared up a lot of fog im my head personally. I didn't even know the Anschluss theory was so old and seeing now what Austria "gained", I understand the situation much better and don't consider it to be less harsh then Trianon. Really great episode!
I guess we can count on an episode about Trianon next year?
Thanks Dora - and yes, we will cover Trianon next year!
Dóra Fauszt Oof, a video about Trianon? That might lead up to a new war... in the comment section of course, mainly between spiced up Romanians and Hungarians.
@@__Alex_ the fear of some angry nationalist comments shouldn't stop them from making another great video about an interesting era of history
why woud you say or think hungary was punished more? hungary just had to give up what wasnt theirs in the first place.... they got their country and turned communists....so what empire was that if they welcomed communism rule so easy?
@@toaderspanache8571 I don't say that. I just wanted to shed light on the fact how one-sided history teachings can be. Hungary focuses so much on herself, that you have the impression, the other central powers got away easily from the peace treaties. That's why there is this general misconception around here (and fuel for some rather dumb right extremists)
Also, the reply of the head of the Slovene delegation (A.Korošec) to the Kaiser Karl's offer for greater autonomy for the Slavs within the empire: "MAJESTÄT, ES IST ZU SPÄT!" ("Your Majesty, it is too late!") tells it all. So much for the restoration of the Habsburg Empire...
I mean Slavs in the Empire pushed for federalism since the Slavic Congress in Prague. So the emperor really was late :P
WELL MAYBE THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE SHOT FRANZ, THE MODERATE HEIR TO THE THRONE WHO WANTED TO FEDERALIZE, HMMMM?
@@princepartee725 That's a pretty big myth. Franz wasn't really a federalist, he just wanted to take divide the Slavs more.
Well the Serbs know why they assassinated Frank Joseph, they don’t want him to make Austria Hungary better which hinder Serbia plan for conquering Bosnia
@@yaujj65 Serbia achieved its goals.
It liberated all Southern Slavs and brought them together in one state that could hold its own.
Back in the 1970s I spent some time in Trieste, where I met an old lady who claimed she was Austrian, because she was born when it was part of Austria. Even after so many years, she couldn't accept she had now become Italian.
She became Italian citizen only.I think you confuse citizenship with ethnicity.
Yeah I bet she liked not living under Tito though.
i mean it was croatian and slovenia not italian italy italianized it
@@gamerdrache6076Trieste has always been an Italian majority city.
@@akosbarati2239 Tito was from Yugoslavia? Not Austria
My great granfather was turbo Polish nationalist and follower of Józef Piłsudski :d He fought and was wounded in battle of Limanowa on 1914. He was an calvalry man who had been hit by sabre in the back on charge for hill Jabłonówka. He was really determined, because my and his family hometown (Przyszowa) was 10km near the battle.
That treaty was received really well by him - it freed our towns to Poland.
To be honest Austrian people weren't much opressive and bad overlords, because they were working on developement od the region instead of changing identity and ideology of the people. We had the most autonomy on day to day life compared to Russian and German empires. Even in our times I've came to contact with people that parents were praising "Franz Josif times were the best" in opposition of Soviet and People Poland Republic rule "Even the wind is evil from the east" :D.
Maybe you can do documentary of treating minorities in Austria-Hungary, before the war?
I'm watching that channel from 2014 and I wanted to say THANK YOU for great work!
this is a very interesting addition, thank you. In modern narratives of the nations that emerged from the Empire it is often portrayed as a prison of nations. But maybe it wasn't quite that.
@@TheGreatWar Just a thought: Wouldn't it be somewhat natural for the emerging countries to portrait the time before in a way that makes people think "now everything is better and getting better?" I mean they were new countries, how do you convince your people to stay and work for your new country better than to tell them "the oppression is over, ect."
Propaganda, I guess ? I am not sure
@@yaujj65 I don't think so :D In my opinion it could be fact Poland in 1914 became a battlefield for nations and ideology that ravaged our lands. Those wars were pretty harmful to economy and people.
In Germany empire and Russian empire there was a "Russification" and "Germanization" process to destroy old traditions and national identities and in AustroHungary those porcesses were limited. National identities ultimately doomed Habsburgs.
Jakub Jaskulski I am just guessing, that all, sorry.
It'd be great to see an episode about Japan's role in the Treaty of Versailles and the aftermath.
Japan helped the Allies from day 1, captured Tsingtao in a siege of such brevity, it's amazing none of the other Allied powers took notice of it as a template for future actions on the Western front. Then it got really nothing from the Treaty.
The Nova renaissance How do you even get upvotes for this?
Japan didnt want further land they wanted that the equality of all races will be a principle in the new league of nations.
And they got this denied
@@marks_sparks1 to be fair Tsingtao was easy to occupy, it was so far from Germany and had so few Germans compared to the number of Japanese troops that it wouldnt make sense to launch violent rebellions against the occupation, assuming the even could. Meanwhile there were quite a few Chinese people there, and they were smack dab in the middle of China, and the Republic of China was aligned with the Allies so the Chinese likely preferred to go along with them rather then do anything to help the Germans. The Japanese also didnt have a major interest in the area compared to the other German colonies since the Japanese didn't need more urban lands, they wanted the resources of the other German colonies so it made much more sense for them to trade Tsingtao for the other colonies. The success of the ccupation and following exchange of territory was largely thanks to reasons outside of any success by the allies or Japanese and had more to do with all of their own interests being aligned for reasons that had nothing to do with their own actions.
@@marks_sparks1 lmao pls stop making Japan a hero, they always fought against small occupation forces and they had the superiority all the time (in numbers and supply). The brave ones were the german soldiers who held out in the colonies as long as possible without resupply
@@bingobongo1615 "equality of all races", despite the fact that if this was made they would have to also treat the Koreans and Chinese from Taiwan equal, which let's be honest, they would never have done so.
I started reading Margaret McMillan's "Paris 1919" book based on your recommendations from the podcast. Fascinating reading for anyone else also interested in the various peace treaties. In terms of the various effects on the Europe and world at large we know today, this is history-making at its most grand and simultaneously audacious.
Excellent book! In fact, one of my all-time favorites.
Wilson allied with the British and French Empires and failed to get his demand for national self determination after the war.
*Surprised Pikachu Face*
Wilson,
Was fool.....
Whom proves the fact,
Education and/or Talent does even come close to Intelligence and/or Experience.
In my opinion he is one of my countries worse presidents. Funny, how fools try to paint him as a hero(you can paint schißt any color you want, it is still schißt).
@@knutdergroe9757 ok
@@chadkingoffuckmountain970 It's true though
@Hernando Malinche dissolve it how?, how do you dissolve an ethnic nation in on area?, do you cut it into sections and give each a name, just for civil war to start again, wasn't germany a multiple states before any way? but they united.
@Stephen Jenkins X
As an Austrian descended man, I enjoyed hearing this. I often heard stories about the Empire and what happened to it from my great grandfather but at the time his mind was gone and I was too young to understand. Thank you for bringing back some childhood memories.
I know there is a lot of ground to cover but I think it would have been worth a side note that the Italian annexation of South Tyrol is even today a polticial issue and was up to the 80s an actual conflict. Also it was probably one of the worst violations of the concept of self-determination. In South Tyrol there was no sizeable minority of Italians living there and South Tyrol had been part of Tyrol and Austira for centuries at this point.
if I remember correctly, we talked more about it in our episode with an Italian focus. If not we will spend more time with the region soon.
@@TheGreatWar I appreciate and thank you for your continued efforts into making this series as thorough and informative as possible. However, I also know that there is so much to talk about and unfortunately in the grand scheme of things this is just a big footnote.
Well
Know that area is Italian majority
@@samtheman4931 since when? It's still german
@@samtheman4931 despite efforts to "italianize" south tyrol, italian speakers still make up only 23% of the population. You may be confusing the PROVINCE of south tyrol with the REGION of trentino-alto adige.
Many non-German commenters seem to be surprised that the idea of Austria merging with Germany was a lot older than the Anschluss of 1938. They should realise that until 1806 there had been a Holy Roman Empire of German Nation with Prague, then Vienna as its effective capital, since the Kaiser, who was a Habsburg, resided there. Later on and until 1866 there was a German Confederation, again with Austria (including Bohemia, Moravia and Austrian Silesia) as its largest and most influential member state. The 52 years of Austria(-Hungary) being a different country than the rest of Germany (which had been united in 1871 by Prussia) were a rare exception, not the rule.
I just subscribed my great uncle fought in ww1 and as a history buff I love your videos
welcome to the show
Where you from, do you know where he fought? (Just interested)
Have grandparents that were mixed up in all this , interesting to figure out what all was going on.
As David Mitchell put it on an episode of QI: “Imagine what Captain Von Trapp felt. He fought for his country in the navy, was hailed a hero, and next thing you know, his beloved nation is WITHOUT A COASTLINE.”
Your german is pretty gut 😁👌🏼
Thanks !
I guess Austria Hungary just became Austria Hungry
Classy joke I gotta admit
@@maxx1014 You sir are too kind
Highly underrated comment
This rustles my hungarian jimmies
Punderland you beat me lol
Thank you! I've been looking for a video like this for ages!
Great and informant Video .I as a South Tyrolean (and Austrian) would like to see an Episode were you take a closer Look to South Tyrol . From the Annexation through Italy to now
@Hungary #1 yeah i would say its a mess...
@Bjergsen Senpai I don't know the actual numbers, but Hungary lost land inhabited by Hungarians on pretty much every single one of its borders. Even we Austrians gained a small piece of Hungary! Though there weren't many Hungarians living in Burgenland as far as I know.
@Bjergsen Senpai What? That's the first time I've heard that. Which areas?
@@antixd8608 Ich hätte nicht gedacht, hier jemanden von Südtirol zu sehen! ^^
Was ich schade finde, die Geschichte von Südtirol wird hier auf CZcams überhaupt nicht erwähnt! Wenn nur oberflächlich... :/
@@Mister-R23 wie klein die Welt doch ist ^^
Late afternoon Friday post? Nice. I save for morning since I still work tomorrow.
Another great episode. It amazes me how much of what you folks publish, which I perceive is important to understanding the Great War and its aftermath, was ignored in the history classes I took in the 60's. Thanks Jesse and the Great War team.
Very informative and clear understanding of such a difficult subject! Thanks.
Glad you finally made a video about this treaty
I just feel so bad for Karl I, he really did try to help his people.
Ora pro nobis
Or more like his concessions were just a desperate attempt to keep that potluck of a nation together after it had failed in almost every single possible regards in terms of administration and self-defence.
Vacatio Libertas If anything Austria Hungary failed, it is on their military spending and lack of proper military modernisation. I can accept the military incompetence of Austria Hungary but not the propaganda that Austria Hungary is weak on everything. Serbia strong in military but weak in economically.
@@yaujj65 I disagree. One of the core reasons the Austro Hungarian Military was incompetent was failed administration. The is evidence by the fact that when Austria Hungary was mobilizing, they actually couldn't use their own railroads effectively because (1)their railroads were extremely out of date and (2)they had so little control over their subject ethnicities, trains filled with troops from one ethnicity would be denied access to other ethnicities.
Also, the Austro-Hungarian Parliament was described once by a French travel magazine more entertaining than the theaters of Vienna because it was a mess of nationalist politicians giving long filibusters to a parliament that didn't understand their tongue, and opposition parties simply ignoring them and giving their own. It was a dumpster fire.
Finally, often times the government in Vienna didn't even have the authority to enforce laws in it's own realm due to the immense power of the Hungarians. One notable example of their excessive power was their refusal to allow the formation of a Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovene within Austrian Hungary(as many, including the Emperor himself, wished).
Austria Hungary was a failed state.
Or as people called him in 1918. Karl the Last.
The Treaties of Versailles and of Saint Germain were lessons in how not to conclude a war.
The Paris Peace Treaties after World War II makes these treaties look like child's play. Versailles was hardly enforced and Saint Germain really didn't cause significant issues.
@@KaiserFranzJosefI -- The German people DEEPLY and persistently resented the Versailles treaty. They particularly resented being blamed for the war, because the Austrians clearly started it. The Versailles treaty was initially enforced, but France's former allies lost interest in enforcing it when the Germans persistently resisted and violated it.
The treaty of Saint Germain caused lasting resentment in Eastern Europe. To this day, Eastern Europeans resent the border changes that it imposed.
Those were not peace treaties, but the continuation of the war with economic and diplomatic strikes.
@@KaiserFranzJosefI This is an interesting line of thought, please say more?
@@meleardil Well said.
Really enjoyed your use of primary quotes especially. Great job with this.
Finally a native english speaker who pronounces german correctly :)
It's a matter of connecting the ears to the mouth.
And French
In the Schleswig Holstein episode he actually made an excellent job of Danish pronunciation ! And as any foreigner who has tried to learn Danish will tell you - that ain't easy !!
I appreciate the care with which you read/pronounced German texts. I had not heard of this treaty before and it's clear how it set up issues that would only flare up again in the 1930s.
Great work as usual!
I found Freud and Mayreder's remarks interesting. Years ago I had a friend who had been born in the Old Empire. He was an atheist of Jewish background, who had been an OSS agent in WW II. I had a decal of the Großes Wappen Österreich Ungarn on the bumper of my car (Emperor Karl's son, Otto, was my daughter's Godfather). My wife wondered what to say if someone asked her what it was. I mentioned her remark to Herbert. He answered, rather heatedly, 'Tell them to ask me! Destroying the Empire was the biggest mistake the Allies made!'
10:21 I was thinking for a while why this Bavaria+Austria state wasnt created. Their culture is so similar, and different to Prussian culture. Austria, is so small compared to Germany. Its going to be swallowed by its "big brother" on the first occasion. And then Czechoslovakia and Hungary will be dominated.
@@Paciat Grüß Gött! Agreed on the similar cultures of Bayern and Österreich.
In olden times, it would be ok. But not in the modern world
@@Paciat ,
Bavaria and Austria where (pre-histroy Roman era) Celtic. They mixed and became more Germanic....
If you are questioning that think Bavaria Beer hall/Irish pub....
@@amerigo88 *Gott
What a mess ? More than a few countries were scrambled . Thank you Jesse and team for showing how it happened .
Makes you wonder what if they listened to wilson more and let Austria have a plebiscite on joining germany (or going to Czechoslovakia, italy, etc) in the 20s instead of what we had.
@Fabian Kirchgessner Ja kommt nach Hause
It's amazing how many bad decisions were made in these treaties. It really feels like the door to later disasters was opened in Paris.
It's a fact. And has its ongoing effects til today. A reason why hungarians still can't get over this trauma and turn to nationalism and keep turning to political extremism.
An excellent explanation of something I had really no idea about before watching this. Many thanks!
Excellent production. You have my gratitude.
I can see why Hitler zeroed in on this area first and also how appeasement seemed like the best option to curtail him. 😟
An enjoyable, most informative and interesting episode, this is the part of WWI associated history I always wandered about the most.
HaBender 🧰paa
Again, thorough and excellent quality research!!
Excellent work. Considering this as my favorite history channel.
Wow! This places the later anschluss with Germany in an entirely new light.
Thank you to The Great War team!
I'm surprised you actually covered the Vorarlberg plebiscite, greetings from Dornbirn
Once I read about it I had to...
I read somwhere that the whole affair of "Kanton Übrig" is an urban myth. Yes most ppl in Vorarlberg voted to join Switzerland but the swiss never had the authority to accept because the treaty of saint germain didnt allow annexation. So no the swiss werent the ones saying no.. it was the allies.
Thanks for posting!
Thanks for a great video! I've long been wondering about why Austria 'didn't join', or isn't a 'part of Germany' - and now, thanks to this informative video I finally know!
Almost all of what you covered i have read or heard before, but the french idea of making a country out of Bavaria and "Rest-austria" was entirely new to me! Thanks for making the video the way you did! (i'd say neutral as a referee should be) Small anekdote: did you come across the name the swiss sometimes use(d) for Vorarlberg? "Kanton übrig"
it is because Vorarlberg was a very poor peasant area at the time with just a bit of textile industry. Now it is economically one of the most thriving areas of the german speaking countries.
@@Ju-ue5bw That's most likely one big reason the swiss didn't want them to join the confederacy helvetica. (another one probably not getting in a conflict with a neighbouring country) But the name has nothing to do with being poor, just with not being wanted.
Being from the south east of austria i find it funny, because the swiss didn't want them, but it seems that that only sparked the eagerness of the people of Vorarlberg there to thrive and we like them.
I am glad you guys cover this. I never knew this was worse then Versailles
Most clear, insightful, and historical explanation this period every!,, Exceptional!! Bravo! Thank you.
Very interesting video, thanks!
I love these video's. The history of post ww1 usually is limited to three things, Treaty of Versailles, Russian Revolution and the Spanish Flu. So much more going on which I am finding out about.
And Eastern Europe was having a battle royale at the time.
It's amazing that technically the war still isn't over
@Fabian Kirchgessner ok boomer
@Fabian Kirchgessner We're still fighting with the results of WWI in the Middle East...
@@MrNeosantana every time a hegemon, even if unstable in a region, breaks up, it seems like that region is almost doomed to extensive tensions and instability and conflict between them, vulnerable to division and conquering...
Fascinating.
Most of this was new to me.
Thank you.
☮
What a great video! it was beautiful
but what about the treaty of Serves ? when would you gu
I just wanted to compliment Jesse for his excellent pronunciation of German words, as a native speaker I hardly hear any flaws, well done
er spricht sogar fließend deutsch und arbeitet mit den originalen deutschen Quellen.
@@TheGreatWar Schade dass du bei nicht-deutschen Namen nicht so genau warst.
Aight, First to coment. This channel deserves a lot more!!
Eh... it was better with Indy...
Give them some time..
@@leestrom2217 channels 4 years old... lol
The channel was certainly cool with Indy, but cmon guys, you're not here because of Indy, you're here because of WW1 history!
Ok boomer
Such a great channel!
Hi, new to the chanel. Love the set and appreciated the quotes in their original language with translation 😀👍
Hope you guys do an episode on Dolfuss and the fatherland front
To this day, Austria's number 1 export is the song "Vienna Calling" by 80's European superstar Falco.
Excellent presentation of a complex and complicated time.
This was a terrific explanation! Thank you!
Treaty of Versailles, harsh and unfair
Treaty of Saint-Germain, hold my Schnapps
4:29 Great pronunciation, best greetings from Austria =D
Servus aus Wien!
Great job with accent, I bet that was hard to learn👍🏻
I love your channel keep up the great stuff
I just feel like the whole episode has been done in one take gj
Thanks go to Toni for the awesome editing. I was actually sick that day so it was a tough shoot but he worked some wonders as usual.
@@jessealexander2695 Thanks Jesse :)
I'm binging these Treaty series and I cannot help but to think that the Treaties after the Great War were even worse than I had in my memory. This basically ruined everything in the region for a CENTURY ... damn.
Wow, now I understand how Anschluss happened. I’d always wondered about that.
Thanks for your very informative video! Best wishes from Germany 🌻
Austria, after the empire was dissolved, was almost certainly going to fall under the sway of Germany no matter what form of government it was to have.
"The sway of Germany"... they simply wanted to unite as they both felt to be 'nationally' German.
this gives the annexation of the sudetenland a whole new perspective.
Did it? How so?
Those Germans were not a continuously German area, they were invited to settle in 13th century, but the area was mixed. Principle of a national state didn't exist till 19th century. Czech-German border is one of the oldest in Europe. Such German settlements were also in Transylvania or in Russia.
This was a great video!
Good episode. Good history.
Animated Historian, Kings and Generals, Bazbattles, even History Buffs! The bloody Great Courses Plus is sinking its tentacles into every history channel on this site!
honestly don't care if they're helping support these movements/channels
What exactly have you got against it? Did it hurt you?
@@TheCimbrianBull IT POISONED MY WATER SUPPLY, BURNED MY CROPS AND DELIVERED A PLAGUE UNTO MY HOUSE!
@@murphyjack90
That was only the Lord's righteous punishment for your sins. Now repent!
Another great episode.
The prohibition against submarines says a great deal about the clowns who wrote this and Versailles.
Hopefully as more people listen to these episodes they will come to understand that Wilson was one of our worst Presidents.
Thank you for the great work !
Prussia and France never should have helped the american revolutionaries
Will you guys be making a similar episode for the Treaty of Sevres?
The Great Courses Eastern Europe history lectures are GREAT!!! I agree with the ad!!!
11:25 "...and of course, the Italians are very difficult"
I'm sure Charles LeClerc would have something to say about that.
No wonder a certain Austrian tried to make it up, two decades later.
Also: Bukovina was returned, not given to Romania. It was a portion of the old historic Moldova province, that the Ottoman Empire chopped off and swapped it with Austria in an earlier treaty, giving what they didn't own in exchange for other benefits.
In the reality, the late-nomad Vlach shepherds of the Balkans (the ancestors of modern Romanians) migrated from Bulgaria and South-Eastern Serbia to the present-day territory of Romania in the 13th century. The irrational daco-romanian continuity myth is nothing more than a "NATIVIST" state-propaganda. This chauvinist propaganda was born & started with the teachings of the "Transylvanian School" (A politically very active "cultural" organization) in the era of national awakening & nationalism. The fantasies and myths of "Transylvanian School" served and followed strictly the romanian national & political interests since the very beginnings. It's the compulsory curriculum for children in romania since the communist Gheorghiu-Dej, and especially under Ceausescu's directives , this national belief/religion became the central core of modern Romanian identity. Fortunately it is not generally accepted by western academic scholars. That's why all major Western Encyclopedias (E.Encarta, E. Britannica, E.Americana, German Brockhaus, French Larousse etc...) mention the romanian state-supported daco-romanian myth, but they are also mention the reality: the Vlach nomad migration from the Balkans in the 13th century.
Vlach (name for medieval & early modern romanians in European chronicles) was the latest nation who introduced the literacy in Europe, and they were one of the latest shepherd nomadic people in Europe.
I. THE PROBLEMS WITH DACIANS AND the so-called "ROMANS"(???) in the theory:
I/1st: There are no CONTEMPORARY (from the 4th century to the late 12th century) proofs for the survival of Dacian ethnic group after Roman withdrawal.
I/2nd: Dacian vocabulary did not remain for the posterior, only same names of tribal leaders remained.
The neo-latin elements in Romanian language remain the best proof agaist daco-roman theory. Unlike in the case of other European neo-latin/romance languages, there are no proofs for development of dacian language into a neo-latin romance language.
I/3rd: The dacian conquest was the shortest lasting conquest of the Roman Empire in Europe, it lasted only 160years, the relations between the Roman legions and dacians remianed very hostile. This very short & hostile circumstance are not an ideal contingency for a real romanization process.
I/4th: The BARBARIZATION of the Roman Army: Despite that average Romanian people tend to believe that they are also descendants of the "Ancient Romans/Latins" it is very far from historical reality. The BARBARIZATION of the Roman army was very (shockingly) massive and rapid since the end of the first century: the 90% of the “Roman” army had not Roman/Latin or Italian ancestry since the end of the 1st century. The contemporary multi-ethnic legionaries were Roman citizens, but they were recruited from various primarily multinational, non-Latin provinces, so THEY WERE NOT ROMANS or LATINS.
II. MIGRATION PERIOD PROBLEMS of the THEORY
II/1st: The migration of series of BRUTAL BARBARIAN tribes: There are no CONTEMPORARY historic records for the survive of dacians after the Roman withdrawal, and later the territory was the FOCAL POINT of great migrations. The area saw serials of many strong powerful and brutal barbaric tribes and people such as Goths, Huns, Longobards, Carpians, Gepids, Avars, Pechenegs and later Cumans. UNLIKE the Vlach ancestors of modern Romanians, all of these barbarian ethnic groups WERE HISTORICALLY RECORDED countless times in contemporary (4th - 9th century) written sources in the dark age & early medieval period. Don't forget, that these "migratory" peoples, each inhabiting the territory for more time than the Romans had held it. After the centuries barbarian invasions, the written records mentioned only Slavic speaking populations in the area under turkic- Cuman rule, but they didn't mention the existence of any neo-latino /romance speaking population. However there are tons of contemporary written documents (chronicles from early medieval to high medieval era , from 4th to 11th century) about the shepherd nomad Vlachs in the Balkan peninsula, but there are no material or written proofs for their existence in the present-day territory of Romania before the 1200s.
II/2nd: The complete LACK OF any LINGUISTIC INFLUENCES OF BARBARIANS of the area on Romanian language: There is also no trace of lingual influence from any of the other peoples who lived in Transylvania after the withdrawal of the Romans: The the Huns, Goths, Carpians, Gepids Longobards, Avars, Pechenegs and Cumans. If these languages did not have any influence on the Rumanian language, we can be sure that this is proof that at that time there were no Wallachian settlers in Transylvania.
III. The Vlachs Neo-Latin (Romance speaking) peopulation, and the PROBLEM of the missing information of existence of neo-latin speakers around a millenium in contemporary chronicles.
III/1st: How is it possible, that nobody realized / mentioned this Latin-speaking community for approx 1000 years adjacent to the Byzantine Empire? This is not somewhere in Sahara, in the jungle of Congo, or on the Siberian tundra… Slavs, Cumans, Jassic people were well recorded in the area by the chroniclers of sorrounding states and their chronicles.
III/2nd: There are no material proofs (cemetries or vlach cultic places) which can support the Vlach (romance speaking population) existence in present-day territory of romania before the 1200s. There are no CONTEMPORARY (from the 4th century to the 13th century) written documents about the existence Vlachs (neo-latino/romance speaking population) in the territory of later Vallachia, Moldavia, and especially in Transylvania before the 1200s.
III/3rd: The earliest romanian chronicle was Grigore Ureche's chronicle in the early 17th century(!!!), who wrote about the balkan migration of his Vlach people. There were no orthodox bishopry in medieval Vallachia & Moldavia, even most of the monks and priests had to be „imported” from Serbia. Due to the lack of medieval literacy and medieval literature and own romanian history writing/chronicles, the poor romanians had to built up a so-called "speculative history-writting" (or fabricated history), where speculations based on earlier speculations and fictions etc..
Where were these neo-latino/ romance speaker population hide so astonishingly long from the eyes of the chroniclers and administration of sorroundig countries?
IV. LINGUISTIC PROBLEMS of the THEORY
IV/1st: How it is possible tha old Romanian language did not adopt / borrowed any (ZERO!!!) Germanic vocabulary, when present-day territory of Romania was inhabited by Goths and Gepids for many centuries? AGAIN: These Germanic tribes inhabited the territory for more time than the Romans had held it. Even the eastern Slavic languages have loanwords/borrowings from Germanic (Old Norse) languages.
IV/2nd ALBANIAN SUBSTRATUM in old Romanian language: Let's don't forget, that the old Romanian language also contained serious ALBANIAN SUBSTRATUM before the linguistic reforms of the 19th century. Moreover, the old Romanian language was the ONLY language in Europe which contained Albanian substratum. This also clearly supports their balkan migrations in the high medieval period.
IV/3rd: The problem of HYDRONYMS and TOPONYMS: Other interesting fact, that Romanian language simply borrowed the already existing Slavic, Hungarian and Saxon origin toponyms and hydronyms of Transylvania. It is a very well known and clear practice of immigrant populations.
IV/4th: The "great Latin" medieval Romanian vlachs always fiercely resisted against the Western Latin (Catholic) Church and its Latin liturgy, they chosed the Slavic Orthodox church which used church-slavonic language istead of Latin. (It was due to the fact that old Romanian language contained more slavic words than latin, because the church-slavonic liturgy was more understandable for their people.
IV/5th: Huge LINGUISTIC REFORMS of the 19th century: During the creation of romanian literary language and language reforms in the 19th century, the high ratio of south-slavic, albanian and turkic words were purged from the vocabulary of the romanian language, and they were replaced by adopted modern French Italian and other modern-era neo-latin words, French and Italian neologisms and even full modern French expressions were adopted to replace the old ones. These new modern Western European (modern French & Italian) romance expressions and words simply did not exist in the era original ancient latin speaking populations or in the vulgar latin languages.
IV/6th: Only the Valchs of the mountains of Balkan peninsula were recorded as romance speakers in the Eastern European and South-Eastern European region in the contemporary (4th-13th century) Chronicles. This is not surprising, because the direct Roman rule lasted for 500+ years in many territories of Balkan peninsula (where vlach neo-latin speaker nomads were very often mentioned by many early medieval chronicles)
The imagined "glorious past" and the opposing historical reality:
The territory of modern romania belonged to the Bulgaria first, later it came under Byzantine rule. From the late 11th century, the territory was occupied and ruled by the turkic Cuman tribes. After the brutal mongol invasions and attacks in 1240, nomadic Vlachs (romanians) started to migrate towards modern romania, and their (turkic) Cuman overlords (like the wallachian state-founder prince Basarab) established their first Vlach romanian principalities. Romanian lands became vassal state of the Hungarian kings and later they were vassals of Polish kings. In the 16th century, romania became an Ottoman province until the Congress of Berlin in 1878.
Since the 16th century the settled life slowly became dominant lifestyle among the formerly mostly nomadic-shepherd romanians. It doesn't sound a very civilized interesting and important history...
@@Celebrate81 you seem to have done some research. That is nice! But you are way to biased to search for the truth, instead you are trying to prove what you want to believe.
Therefore, you will be blind at any proof that is contrary to your theory(belief in fact).
I won't say that no migration took place from the south of the Danube. It's possible, I really don't know.
But to say that the whole romanian people migrated from the south and occupied hungarian lands, its just ridiculous.
- The byzantine emperor mentions that "romans" live in Dacia in his work "Strategikon" (sec VI)
- Other byzantine emperor, Constantine VII Porfirogenetul mentions the term "romans" as well, for the people living in Dacia
- an inscription from the IV century in current romanian territory "enovius votum posui"
- the latin term "basilica" - biserică was kept only in romanian language, the other languages using the greek "ecclesia". South Danube aromanians/vlach were influenced by greeks in church vocabulary.
And many others, which I'm not going to research again right now, since I don't have the time and the will.
Anyway, even if it was true (which is not) that the romanians migrated from south in a hungarian/slavic heaven on north of the Danube, it still would not change the fact that "Bukovina was returned, not given to Romania", as it was part of old Moldova, having a romanian majority when annexed by force by Austria.
And it would not change the fact that at the begining of the XX century, there was an absolute majority of romanians in Transilvania (53% according to hungarian census, which was skewed, anyway). That does not change that the cities were built by hungarians and germans. But again, ethnic majority was the reason behind the new borders.
If migrations matter that much, then the hungarian people have a big legitimity issue. But migrations from a millenium ago do not matter so we may leave in peace from now on
@@Celebrate81 So,finally,what do you propose regarding this issue?What is it to do ,practically?
Maybe one of the most important overlooked problems of warfare is how one successfully ensures lasting peace and stability once the fighting is over. And the worst part is that this is not some distant statement because of a war that is long gone but a theme you will find daily in the political landscape of our modern era. Truly astonishing how so much available knowledge goes unused.
even better video on Trianon by the same guys
well done btw
The legacy of drawing borders by others is a troublesome legacy of the Great War resulting in conflicts even to this day.
Here is a 20 minute video that gets down to the basics very fairly. I’ve always believed that the main ripples in the sea of Europe has been caused by the friction between France and Germany, with France being the main issue. When I was stationed at Bitburg AFB in the late 70’s, there was a French base that bordered ours and I saw the negative animosity between the French and the West Germans. I wonder if it’s still like that? I absolutely loved living in West Germany.
Nothing more than childish slander at this point. In Europe the conflicts (mostly) consist of making fun of other countries. Th EU has just put us so close together that it would be unthinkable for a german to wage war on France and vise versa. The economies are too intertwined and all the majot cities have become metropoles with all ethnicities living together.
There are however still some remnants f.e the Austrian inferiority complex when it comes to germany. We always have to point out that most german stereotypes aren't even true but are bavarian/austrian and we also like to make fun of germans a lot.
Interesting video. A worse treat than Versailles exists. Who would've imagined it. Nice job.
Excellent episode.
today, people say diversity is our strenght... Say that to Austria-Hungary ^^,
Seems like we learned nothing from history
Yes, well in Austria-Hungary there was no way for diverse peoples to have representation, for it was a monarchy. Nowadays, we have democracy, and when done right, we can properly show representation.
@@kapitanbach7411 Ah.. So if only Austria had been a democracy like Great Britain it would be no problem? Just like the people of Ireland had no issues with being part of Great Britain since it was a democracy
Guess that makes sense when i think about it
@@Borrelaas Britain, at least in the early 20th century, didn't do democracy properly and had oppressed Ireland for generations.
I must compliment your host. His German pronounciation is spot on, especially the small hint of an Austrian accent..If he is Austrian, then I compliment him on his English.
He’s Canadian
6:05 Fabulous mustash my friend
That is the absolute best most comprehensive explanation of exactly what happened to Austria-Hungary that I have ever heard. I am beg to believe that empires brought with them the potential of a calming influence in ethnically turbulent and diverse areas. Just hearing people argue endlessly, especially in the Balkan peninsula, makes one despair that nothing has really changed in over 100 years. Sad.
No wonder Austria was angry. They were promised self determination but they never got it
Well yes, they had a governor for life who banned political parties on a whim and denied voting outside the elite... oh wait that was Horthy. Austria was better off in every metric imaginable. Nothing shows more just how universal suffrage didn't happen in Hungary when there were still enough royalist soldiers and nobles who wanted Karl to return and be king of Hungary.
Did they give it to other people within the Empire ? Nope !
@@walideg5304 what do you expect though?
@@micahistory they had multiple centuries to give self determination to their people. They did not , except to Hungarians after grave incidents and only few decades before. No Austria deserved a millions times to be beheaded.
It is a wonder that they were angry.
They were not giving the right of self determination to other ethnicities for centuries.
"and of course. the Italians are very difficult"
i will use this quote with my colleague next time he's difficult.
Edward Stanley is known by his title the Earl of Derby or Lord Derby.