Thanks for this documentation of your observations! Interestingly, most people don't realize that they SHOULD see a pressure drop after the intercooler due to simple math related to cooling the charge air. The same charge mass will create less pressure if the temperature is reduced (ideal gas law PV=nRT). In your case, your observation that there wasn't a pressure drop after the intercooler was absolutely noteworthy, and I never thought of it this way, so thank you! I'm curious to know if you also noticed an increase in drive pressure/EMAP with the holley intake on?
Now that people are finally beginning to understand that the measure of 'Boost Pressure' is actually a Restriction (ie. Intake Backpressure) value, we need to come up with a new way to measure and calculate wheel/rotor/impeller/shaft speed/RPM and Flow Potential at 'the air pump' and compare THAT to the engine's MAP sensor, in order to see things more clearly, in terms of efficiency and restriction etc. While this makes sense in my head for something like a ProCharger/Vortec Centrifugal or even a Roots/Screw (measured at the shaft, then calculated based on pulley size and impeller specs etc.....which a manufacturer obviously knows every value for), the same for a turbo obviously must take into consideration exhaust pressure (turning the shaft) AND wheel speed (compressing the air), as it's much less linear than a Supercharger. As there are far more smarter people in the world than me, I am sure that someone will come up with it. Hopefully what most people took away from this video (in broad strokes) was the fact that the Holley was 6psi more restrictive than the BTR, being the only items replaced/compared. As you stated, you previously knew that you had a steady 6psi drop at the Intercooler, yet saw it represented as having Zero loss after the Holley Change, the Holley re-introduced that 6spi of intake pressure via restriction. If this is difficult for some to understand, then consider a 2.9L Whipple making healthy 4 digit HP on a BBC @ 12psi read from the MAP sensor, yet using the same top and bottom pulley on the average Small Block would be triple digit HP, but represent as 19psi on the MAP sensor.......but give that Small block better heads and possibly more displacement and re-run the test using the same top/bottom pulley and existing Whipple setup and you might see it spit out 4 digit HP, with a MAP sensor reading (boost pressure) of 14 or 15psi (HP numbers not accurate, only used to get my point across)....
Do you have a boost pressure gauge on the intake and the back pressure sensor on the exhaust and a speed sensor on the turbo? What was your intake temp something doesn’t make sense no way you should’ve had a 15% correction at the same boost pressure. Were all the injectors flow tested prior to installation? May be an injector stuck open.
If you know the min cross section in the head, you have the intake larger at its min cross section and leave the intake rough, rough, rough. Just my opinion.
Is the injector penetration into each runner roughly the same in each manifold ? I am not familiar with EFI at all. If given free reign how much more or less than the 15% limit would each injector be told to run at with the new manifold ? The new manifold is clearly upsetting the distribution of the original air/fuel intake path. A 6 PSI drop over an intercooler @ WOT usually means it's not up to flowing enough air , (I read that 1 or 2 psi is acceptable) maybe cut the intercooler out of the equation & run the engine on a high octane gasoline or E85 from a US 55 gallon drum to stop detonation.
Pretty good theory, I can tell you I went from a ls6 to a fast intake on my 370, it got richer, but went 3 mph faster, the problem was the exhaust was already restriction before a changed the intake, gained 4-5 mph with exhaust change
@@KrakenRaceSupply but it would be after the injectors so you’re not increasing the pressure differential between the fuel rail and the port. I don’t know that you and a flow restriction as much as you actually have a velocity drop right at the injector creating a pressure drop. I mean you could be but it’s exaggerated by the pressure drop
We were on a no prep, so it's tough to have sure data but about 4-5mph down and about 100+lb/hr less fuel from the previous outing on that surface. I'm assuming plugs would show it needed more timing if the theory is correct. It would be higher in the timing/fuel map then needed.
That's weird, over a year ago I watched a dyno session, here on CZcams, where they switched from a stock intake, to a BTR equalizer and lost 45 horse on a chassis dyno! Wonder what's up? They pulled it off and put the stock one back on. Might have been a LS3, I can't remember. I just remembered not to buy or recommend the Equalizer. The Trinity is a good/better intake.
That would be an interesting video to watch. I know the Equalizer really shines above 7000 over any of the others we have ran. I have not measured anything below that as that is where this motor lives at.
Yes, that was a few years back. The Hi Ram performed very well down low and the Equilizer shined past 7000. They were very close, both with their own benefits. The port is much different on the high ram than this one visually. My high ram was port matched as well.
Yes, Power fell off and lost mph. Can't put a hard number on it as it was no prep. But we were .1 off previous data with better wheel slip % and weight
I believe you killed the port energy by doing what you did. You do not want to have port changing shape from the plenum to the flange. Minimal taper is better for flow. That really hurts the port energy. Especially entering the chamber. It also reduces the ability of the runner to pull fuel.
@@KrakenRaceSupply You would have to contour the entire port not just the flange area where it meets the head. Have you taken cross section measurements in the manifold?
Very interesting! It would be nice to see how some other intakes perform.
Thanks for this documentation of your observations! Interestingly, most people don't realize that they SHOULD see a pressure drop after the intercooler due to simple math related to cooling the charge air. The same charge mass will create less pressure if the temperature is reduced (ideal gas law PV=nRT). In your case, your observation that there wasn't a pressure drop after the intercooler was absolutely noteworthy, and I never thought of it this way, so thank you! I'm curious to know if you also noticed an increase in drive pressure/EMAP with the holley intake on?
Thanks for the info, building a CTS-V1 with big turbo but don’t wanna cut the hood to fit the high rise
Good information I like your prospective. I went from a tbss to a super victor and found +15 percent needed at 6,000 to 7,500 rpm.
Now that people are finally beginning to understand that the measure of 'Boost Pressure' is actually a Restriction (ie. Intake Backpressure) value, we need to come up with a new way to measure and calculate wheel/rotor/impeller/shaft speed/RPM and Flow Potential at 'the air pump' and compare THAT to the engine's MAP sensor, in order to see things more clearly, in terms of efficiency and restriction etc. While this makes sense in my head for something like a ProCharger/Vortec Centrifugal or even a Roots/Screw (measured at the shaft, then calculated based on pulley size and impeller specs etc.....which a manufacturer obviously knows every value for), the same for a turbo obviously must take into consideration exhaust pressure (turning the shaft) AND wheel speed (compressing the air), as it's much less linear than a Supercharger. As there are far more smarter people in the world than me, I am sure that someone will come up with it.
Hopefully what most people took away from this video (in broad strokes) was the fact that the Holley was 6psi more restrictive than the BTR, being the only items replaced/compared. As you stated, you previously knew that you had a steady 6psi drop at the Intercooler, yet saw it represented as having Zero loss after the Holley Change, the Holley re-introduced that 6spi of intake pressure via restriction. If this is difficult for some to understand, then consider a 2.9L Whipple making healthy 4 digit HP on a BBC @ 12psi read from the MAP sensor, yet using the same top and bottom pulley on the average Small Block would be triple digit HP, but represent as 19psi on the MAP sensor.......but give that Small block better heads and possibly more displacement and re-run the test using the same top/bottom pulley and existing Whipple setup and you might see it spit out 4 digit HP, with a MAP sensor reading (boost pressure) of 14 or 15psi (HP numbers not accurate, only used to get my point across)....
A sensor at the injector, could validate your concerns. What I didn't hear you discuss was velocity.
Do you have a boost pressure gauge on the intake and the back pressure sensor on the exhaust and a speed sensor on the turbo? What was your intake temp something doesn’t make sense no way you should’ve had a 15% correction at the same boost pressure. Were all the injectors flow tested prior to installation? May be an injector stuck open.
I’d get with BTr on this. They’ll wanna know. And I’m sure will have a dual injector cathedral coming.
If you know the min cross section in the head, you have the intake larger at its min cross section and leave the intake rough, rough, rough. Just my opinion.
I do not have that measurement
Also Eric weingarter just did a flow test, to see how important it was to port match,
Are you going to give the BTR Trinity a go as they have twin injector now? They look really nice!
Is the injector penetration into each runner roughly the same in each manifold ?
I am not familiar with EFI at all.
If given free reign how much more or less than the 15% limit would each injector be told to run at with the new manifold ?
The new manifold is clearly upsetting the distribution of the original air/fuel intake path.
A 6 PSI drop over an intercooler @ WOT usually means it's not up to flowing enough air ,
(I read that 1 or 2 psi is acceptable) maybe cut the intercooler out of the equation & run the engine on a high octane gasoline or E85 from a US 55 gallon drum to stop detonation.
Pretty good theory, I can tell you I went from a ls6 to a fast intake on my 370, it got richer, but went 3 mph faster, the problem was the exhaust was already restriction before a changed the intake, gained 4-5 mph with exhaust change
Turbocharged setup ?
@@mrnonamenobody6910 no sir NA but it did teach me that an exhaust restriction will cause you to get richer with positive changes to the intake
@@drivinwithdrew7676
😎 that's really good gains 👍
@@mrnonamenobody6910 factory bmw duel exhaust, it necked down to under 2 inches before the mufflers,
You created the vortex/Venturi affect by opening the end of the runner. The intake is designed to run a taper in the runner
Would it not have the same effect when meeting the head that is a much bigger port?
@@KrakenRaceSupply but it would be after the injectors so you’re not increasing the pressure differential between the fuel rail and the port.
I don’t know that you and a flow restriction as much as you actually have a velocity drop right at the injector creating a pressure drop. I mean you could be but it’s exaggerated by the pressure drop
@@KrakenRaceSupplythe zero pressure drop is still weird but I’m strictly talking about the intake and fuel stuff
I dont keep up and i suppose i could watch some more videos but what was the solution? I thought both btr versions had a 16 inj option
Could it be fuel seperation in the runner? Seperated fuel molecules dropping out?
Have your ever ran the Ultra Low Ram ? Because I know you spin your engines to the moon.
I have not tried one yet!
Good info, that's a pretty big loss.
It sure is, still studying the data to find any other options of power loss
Interesting hypothesis. The low rams really don't seem like they'd be THAT bad. But losing 15% of fuel is pretty big
The raw numbers are actually worse but 15% is pretty safe to say. The DA was slightly different, so I accounted for that.
What was the difference in et and how did the plugs look
We were on a no prep, so it's tough to have sure data but about 4-5mph down and about 100+lb/hr less fuel from the previous outing on that surface. I'm assuming plugs would show it needed more timing if the theory is correct. It would be higher in the timing/fuel map then needed.
That's weird, over a year ago I watched a dyno session, here on CZcams, where they switched from a stock intake, to a BTR equalizer and lost 45 horse on a chassis dyno! Wonder what's up? They pulled it off and put the stock one back on. Might have been a LS3, I can't remember. I just remembered not to buy or recommend the Equalizer. The Trinity is a good/better intake.
That would be an interesting video to watch. I know the Equalizer really shines above 7000 over any of the others we have ran. I have not measured anything below that as that is where this motor lives at.
@@KrakenRaceSupply
czcams.com/video/Wui1abFy1q4/video.htmlsi=AIvcIBFei50rtxNl
There's one. NA, in this test, though.
Have you tested the BTR Equalizer to the Holley Hi Ram?
Yes, that was a few years back. The Hi Ram performed very well down low and the Equilizer shined past 7000. They were very close, both with their own benefits. The port is much different on the high ram than this one visually. My high ram was port matched as well.
Did your power fall off also? Like a loss in trap mph or a big dip in fuel flow on the data log?
Yes, Power fell off and lost mph. Can't put a hard number on it as it was no prep. But we were .1 off previous data with better wheel slip % and weight
Btr just released dual injector intakes😂
They do not have a Cathedral port, at least, I haven't heard.
U ported it out yourself. U should of left it alone and then ran the test. They make them intakes the way they do for a reason.
Did you see the unported cast? No way I'm leaving it like that. Extremely inconsistent between the cylinders
KrakenRaceSupply... Do you have an unported lower, to do a comparison with?
I believe you killed the port energy by doing what you did. You do not want to have port changing shape from the plenum to the flange. Minimal taper is better for flow. That really hurts the port energy. Especially entering the chamber. It also reduces the ability of the runner to pull fuel.
So what would be better, leaving the port alone and have turbulence when it meets the head? Not sure I hurt anything port matching to the heads 🤷♂️
@@KrakenRaceSupply You would have to contour the entire port not just the flange area where it meets the head. Have you taken cross section measurements in the manifold?
I have not, we didn't expect to see such a deficiency. I didn't plan on making a comparison video until we found these issues.
I think you should just leave the intake alone until we run again 👀😅🤣 jk.
BTR Equalizer , fix the title & delete my post ;)
I hope the fairy princess is hard at work cleaning your race car.
Thank you, fixed it 😂