I am so used to you tubers having a fluffy intro free of useful content that I phased out at the start of your video. Then I had to restart it because I realised you were getting straight to the point and straight into the valuable info. Excellent! Most people training BJJ regularly are busy people so it's great you don't mess around!
I’m 2 months into starting jiujitsu and I still feel like it’s my first day. I have such terrible analysis paralysis. This was so helpful! I can’t wait to binge all your videos! Thanks so much! ♥️
I love how you used the "use principles" approach at the beginning of the video to explain that you want to give us some context and explain some principles regarding your thoughts on the issue. This is the most meta video I've seen in a long time, I love it! 🤙
Thank you for the video! Well said. I think one part people miss is that “systems” vs “concepts” is only the mental half of jiu jitsu. There’s also the physical half to develop. Systematizing done right lets you fine tune your athletic movements and response in isolation, and lets you simplify your thinking into multiple choice. Done wrong it sends you down an over-thinking rabbit hole of focusing too much on “technique” and not enough on athleticism. Conceptualizing lets you skip 90% of the overthinking part so you can work on the athleticism - but you have much less of a guide for how to *do* the athletic movements, so you end up inefficiently “reinventing the wheel.” I agree with blending the two, while being aware of the potential pitfalls for students. Students need to realize that goal for either style of learning is not the system or the concept itself as an “I win” button, but as a way to enable their own growth in executing the physical technique against their opponent. In the end, an action that worked is what matters.
Yeah absolutely I think when you have systemize stuff you can really dial in your conditioning in those movements, but like you said can become a bit too much if you go too deep. I have been like that with certain positions before, but I do this as a career so sometimes I go really deep on problems and some of best principles or tools have come from it, but also have probably lost a lot of time too
Ok, whenever I ask someone, who exhibits awesome talent and I press them for how can I improve( mind you I am a over 50 blue belt) their answer is always mat time. I practice most days and for me that has not equated to more skill, but watching your videos has given me a clear and concise guide on getting better faster. Thank you. 🙏🙏🙏
great video. i like the chess analogies, in chess what you discussed was tactics vs strategy; someone understanding opening-specific tactics vs general chess strategy.
My jiu-jitsu is becoming better, thanks for your concepts, and it's always good to check your youtube chanel and find something new to watch! One of the best bjj coaches on youtube honestly. OSS
Thank you sooo much for all your content ! I would loooove to see a video from you where you give some principles or exercices to train and improve at home. I can only train 2 times a week at the gym and I feel it is slowing me down. And when you search for training at home it's always the same mobility drills... Again thank you for everything !
Fantastic stuff Jon! I remember talking about this with you in person, and something I think about often. You've done a great job of explaining both approaches and providing real-world examples of their benefits.
Yeah I am in the process of trying to remap out Toreando stuff again and I feel like a mad scientist, but I try to mix principles and systems on it. Has been really fun
Right now, your jiu jitsu content is the best. There's tons of videos on techniques that confuse more than they help because they are very situationally specific. But videos like this which discuss principles and frameworks help make the art itself more digestible. Would love more content like this for certain positions, like side mount escape principles, full mount control principles, etc. Thank you.
Nice! I've been focused on grips and position before attacking lately. Also arm/neck awareness in defense positions. Also enjoyed the chess analogies. Do you have a school or any tourneys coming up?
Excellent video Jon! I look forward to discussing this more with you in person during your training camp with Espen in Sligo, Ireland, August 4th-7th 2023.
Great ideas! I've run into the issue of general principle vs everytime rule due to my tendency to play around with an Eduardo Telles style game. Folks are often telling me not to give my back but honestly I've been practicing enough escapes and reversals that it's often easier for me to utilize turtle than try to escape side control for instance. I do follow principles of defending neck, hooks, and inside space while engaging in turtle.
Thank you, you have great content sir. I think besides the definitions that when It comes to learning it also is very individual. Just like learning a subject at school different people are able to receive knowledge individually in more than one way. Some learn from listening, others by watching another by doing etcetera. Maybe easier while standing, siting, listening to music, writing down or other ways. I've seen students whom mediate before/after class, some bring a textbook others watch CZcams, one eats before another fasts. I do believe the first way to improve learning is to find out about yourself, how do I pick up on this class? And probably it is also very individual how we comprehend to systems and concepts. Again, thank you for this content!
Absolutely I think you have to feel out what works best for you. It also needs to not only be effective but also a format in which you enjoy doing. You have to love training to get really good
Somewhat ironically, the detailed "maps" are what give context to the concepts (like cardinal directions). Of course, once you have enough context and competence you can find your way around a lot better with a compass than needing a map for every path. And for my money's worth, the "maps" I'd iron out (i.e. things you can never bee too good at): takedowns, back / mount escapes, and maybe add some late escapes / finishes.
I really enjoy the structure of the way you convey knowledge, all your 'complete' system videos have been particularly helpful, a lot because of the insight of WHEN to use moves and how they fit together. Do you have a comprehensive list somewhere of "absolute" principles for each position that you think a white belt should keep in mind? You mentioned some in this video that never occured to me, though are obvious in retrospect, and I'm wondering what else I don't know that I don't know.
I'm probably biased because my hair is as powerful as yours, but I love your channel! How do you keep your hair out of your face? Are you using Bobby pins or is it just a lot of hair gel? I ask this as someone who has been doing bjj for roughly 2 months
When I was a white belt I really struggled with the idea of concepts as opposed to learning techniques but as a blue belt I am starting to get to grips with some of these, videos like this certainly helped. Your concept of establishing grips to start building a guard along with focusing on improving my collar sleeve guard during rolls has really helped me improve my guard retention, so unconsciously I have been using a mix of a system and concept to improve - as always you summarise these ideas and convey them excellently.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 *🥋 There's debate on the best way to learn Jiu Jitsu-focus on big principles or break down into systems and algorithms.* 00:55 *🔄 Systems work well in low-variable situations, like Chess. They provide pre-planned answers for specific scenarios, aiding muscle memory and decision-making.* 02:58 *🧠 Principles offer general guidelines, like "distance creates leverage." They help make quick decisions in complex situations but require contextual understanding.* 05:57 *⚖️ Be cautious with principles; they can be counterproductive if not always true. Context matters, and relying blindly on principles may hinder adaptability.* 08:29 *🤔 The ideal approach is a mix of systems and principles. Systems build confidence and save time, but understanding principles is crucial for real-time decisions under pressure.* 09:40 *📍 Focus analytical breakdowns on endpoint positions-common situations like single leg takedowns. Invest time in calculable scenarios before tackling more abstract and broad concepts.* 11:03 *🔄 The future ideal is a combination of systemization and intuitive understanding. While systems are powerful, relying solely on them without principles can put one at a disadvantage.* Made with HARPA AI
I prayed to god and created a BJJ-Project with JIRA from Atlassian. There I note everytging down, rollings, trainings, problems as you recommended in previous videos. God bless you Jon Sorry for my nasty english 😅
@@JonThomasBJJ Absolutely. Only when I take notes do I remember details that I was not so aware of even when I was rolling. Solutions to problems can be tried out and trained directly at the next opportunity. Frustrating moments can also be worked through. I am very grateful to Jon. Thank you.
@@ansborromeo7470 Hi, it would be my pleasure to show it to you and would be very interested in your input to improve it. Before I created the project, I discussed the goals beforehand with ChatGPT so it would tell me the elements for the BJJ project. I then built all of that. Then to the problems I have always linked appropriate CZcams videos. The project is growing. If you like it, you are welcome to have the project. @JonThomasBJJ if it is interesting to you somehow, you can have it also gladly.
How we learn is similar to how we get into a swimming pool. No matter what you get into the water but how quickly that transition occurs will give you a different outcome. You can spend years on non resistance drilling and become really good at it but until you move that training to an actual resisting opponent, you will only be "good at" the non resistant part. If you skip the non resist part then it can be more of a shock to the system but with good couching through a more constants led approach, skill acquisition can occur quicker and will be more robust.
Nice video! My brain is farting along here, so I'll just ask: systems work well when there are few enough variables. Am I right in thinking this applies to all sub finishes and all "established" positions? And that it's easier to have/use a system the more specific the position gets? (say Z mount is more specific than mount - the latter arguably has more variables) I don't fully understand the separation between systems and principles. On the surface it seems that you NEED good principles in order for systems to work. I.e. if you know 3 good finishes to a single leg, depending on opponent's response, but your base is weak and he has better posture, you probably won't get it. How do you conceptualize this? Do you assume that decent base+posture is a part of the system? Thanks!
My coach uses the ecological approach where we learn through games. Would that fall more into systems or principles (I'd guess principles)? I found I learned more things faster through games. Also, as an absolute beginner, I progressed a lot by learning bjj theory (from Jordans course)
I would say games could be both, if you are playing a game like “finish the triangle choke” even if you don’t systemize your self ultimately there will become a system that is occurring with in the triangle choke. So I think there is no need to lock your self into one or the other you should use both. I think not systemizing or studying certain positions would be missing a huge opportunity for progress and effectiveness. So in the end use both in my opinion.
So basically when you have multiple options bigger general concepts work and when you have limited options then minimizing and learning the few moves for that situation works?
I was watching a video the other day and I think it was about using competition footage vs instructionals for studying but I can’t find it now. Even checking my view history anyone know what that videos title is?
So I just researched a little and have heard some people explain to me so I don’t fully understand the approach but I’ll give the perspective that I can. As I mentioned in this video when you are dealing with high variable situations principles and more loose explanations can work better as the students can improvise a lot and be less stifled. However in situations where it is limited, to me there is no reason not to have some systems in place. Because there isn’t grips in the same way in no gi as there is in gi I can see how being more general in your principles and coaching can be useful, but in gi as you can get locked up in positions way quicker I think you need to be prepared for common guards. If you are fighting in gi and someone puts you in double sleeve there is repeatable patterns that will happen every time so there is no reason not to have plans for them. If someone tries to rely off principles in a high level open guard with no practical experience in them. They are going to overwhelmed and get caught in a lot of submission they just don’t know is coming. Maybe I’m not understanding properly the approach he is suggesting. I just don’t see a reason to only do one you should use both principle based learning and systems.
I hate writing comments, but I find your content really helpfull since I am an analytic person and you explain it in ways I Understand it quite well. So here is the "support the channel" like and comment :D Thx for the Content!
Man Jon, after I learned from you as a whitebelt I choked and nealy choked two bluebelts with the help of God. One hatet me at the first time, the other one looked me strange.
I think if you have a small amount of time to train a week you should rely on principles for the big stuff but should also invest time in the core positions to systemize triangle side control ect. They will give such a huge pay off
Thanks for making the world of Jui-Jitsu accessible to so many! One of the top BJJ content creators out there!
No problem buddy happy you enjoyed the video!
@@JonThomasBJJ would you mind if I promoted your videos on my page?
I am so used to you tubers having a fluffy intro free of useful content that I phased out at the start of your video. Then I had to restart it because I realised you were getting straight to the point and straight into the valuable info. Excellent! Most people training BJJ regularly are busy people so it's great you don't mess around!
I’m 2 months into starting jiujitsu and I still feel like it’s my first day. I have such terrible analysis paralysis. This was so helpful! I can’t wait to binge all your videos! Thanks so much! ♥️
I love how you used the "use principles" approach at the beginning of the video to explain that you want to give us some context and explain some principles regarding your thoughts on the issue.
This is the most meta video I've seen in a long time, I love it! 🤙
Jon is such a great resource to have🔥
Thank you for the video! Well said.
I think one part people miss is that “systems” vs “concepts” is only the mental half of jiu jitsu. There’s also the physical half to develop.
Systematizing done right lets you fine tune your athletic movements and response in isolation, and lets you simplify your thinking into multiple choice. Done wrong it sends you down an over-thinking rabbit hole of focusing too much on “technique” and not enough on athleticism.
Conceptualizing lets you skip 90% of the overthinking part so you can work on the athleticism - but you have much less of a guide for how to *do* the athletic movements, so you end up inefficiently “reinventing the wheel.”
I agree with blending the two, while being aware of the potential pitfalls for students. Students need to realize that goal for either style of learning is not the system or the concept itself as an “I win” button, but as a way to enable their own growth in executing the physical technique against their opponent. In the end, an action that worked is what matters.
Yeah absolutely I think when you have systemize stuff you can really dial in your conditioning in those movements, but like you said can become a bit too much if you go too deep. I have been like that with certain positions before, but I do this as a career so sometimes I go really deep on problems and some of best principles or tools have come from it, but also have probably lost a lot of time too
Ok, whenever I ask someone, who exhibits awesome talent and I press them for how can I improve( mind you I am a over 50 blue belt) their answer is always mat time. I practice most days and for me that has not equated to more skill, but watching your videos has given me a clear and concise guide on getting better faster.
Thank you.
🙏🙏🙏
great video. i like the chess analogies, in chess what you discussed was tactics vs strategy; someone understanding opening-specific tactics vs general chess strategy.
Underrated video.
My jiu-jitsu is becoming better, thanks for your concepts, and it's always good to check your youtube chanel and find something new to watch! One of the best bjj coaches on youtube honestly. OSS
This video was awesome.Thank you
Good intelligent assessment.
That is so well said. Your explanation just gave me an understanding of how to use the different types of learning! Thank you.
Thank you sooo much for all your content !
I would loooove to see a video from you where you give some principles or exercices to train and improve at home. I can only train 2 times a week at the gym and I feel it is slowing me down.
And when you search for training at home it's always the same mobility drills...
Again thank you for everything !
Fantastic stuff Jon! I remember talking about this with you in person, and something I think about often. You've done a great job of explaining both approaches and providing real-world examples of their benefits.
Yeah I am in the process of trying to remap out Toreando stuff again and I feel like a mad scientist, but I try to mix principles and systems on it. Has been really fun
Right now, your jiu jitsu content is the best. There's tons of videos on techniques that confuse more than they help because they are very situationally specific. But videos like this which discuss principles and frameworks help make the art itself more digestible. Would love more content like this for certain positions, like side mount escape principles, full mount control principles, etc. Thank you.
Thanks again coach. Great advice
No problem happy to help!
Thank you coach
Thanks for another excellent video - > this will go perfect with the kimura systems i'm going over with my son 👍
Happy to hear it! Kimura is the perfect thing to systemize
Always a good video. Thank you!
Appreciate it!
Nice! I've been focused on grips and position before attacking lately. Also arm/neck awareness in defense positions. Also enjoyed the chess analogies. Do you have a school or any tourneys coming up?
Excellent video Jon! I look forward to discussing this more with you in person during your training camp with Espen in Sligo, Ireland, August 4th-7th 2023.
Can’t wait buddy gonna be such a fun camp!
Oh man really hope there are places left
Dang I remember when I first subscribed professor has like 5k or less. Now you’re on his way to 100k n beyond. Way to go professor!
Thanks buddy! Appreciate the support all the way through!
Great ideas! I've run into the issue of general principle vs everytime rule due to my tendency to play around with an Eduardo Telles style game. Folks are often telling me not to give my back but honestly I've been practicing enough escapes and reversals that it's often easier for me to utilize turtle than try to escape side control for instance. I do follow principles of defending neck, hooks, and inside space while engaging in turtle.
Guy in my gym has nailed his defense from turtle and absolutely smashed people with his attacks from turtle. It's definitely a valuable position
Thanks
Thank you, you have great content sir. I think besides the definitions that when It comes to learning it also is very individual. Just like learning a subject at school different people are able to receive knowledge individually in more than one way. Some learn from listening, others by watching another by doing etcetera. Maybe easier while standing, siting, listening to music, writing down or other ways. I've seen students whom mediate before/after class, some bring a textbook others watch CZcams, one eats before another fasts. I do believe the first way to improve learning is to find out about yourself, how do I pick up on this class? And probably it is also very individual how we comprehend to systems and concepts. Again, thank you for this content!
Absolutely I think you have to feel out what works best for you. It also needs to not only be effective but also a format in which you enjoy doing. You have to love training to get really good
Useful video
Interesting discussion! Good analysis imo ^_^
Chess allegories are useful thanks a lot
Somewhat ironically, the detailed "maps" are what give context to the concepts (like cardinal directions). Of course, once you have enough context and competence you can find your way around a lot better with a compass than needing a map for every path. And for my money's worth, the "maps" I'd iron out (i.e. things you can never bee too good at): takedowns, back / mount escapes, and maybe add some late escapes / finishes.
I really enjoy the structure of the way you convey knowledge, all your 'complete' system videos have been particularly helpful, a lot because of the insight of WHEN to use moves and how they fit together. Do you have a comprehensive list somewhere of "absolute" principles for each position that you think a white belt should keep in mind? You mentioned some in this video that never occured to me, though are obvious in retrospect, and I'm wondering what else I don't know that I don't know.
I need to make a playlist of some of the most important principle or system videos I have made. Will definitely get on that
Subscribed!!
Happy to hear it! Check out some of my other big videos I think you will like them a lot
I'm probably biased because my hair is as powerful as yours, but I love your channel!
How do you keep your hair out of your face? Are you using Bobby pins or is it just a lot of hair gel? I ask this as someone who has been doing bjj for roughly 2 months
When I was a white belt I really struggled with the idea of concepts as opposed to learning techniques but as a blue belt I am starting to get to grips with some of these, videos like this certainly helped. Your concept of establishing grips to start building a guard along with focusing on improving my collar sleeve guard during rolls has really helped me improve my guard retention, so unconsciously I have been using a mix of a system and concept to improve - as always you summarise these ideas and convey them excellently.
Thanks so much buddy! And happy to collar sleeve is fitting your game!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 *🥋 There's debate on the best way to learn Jiu Jitsu-focus on big principles or break down into systems and algorithms.*
00:55 *🔄 Systems work well in low-variable situations, like Chess. They provide pre-planned answers for specific scenarios, aiding muscle memory and decision-making.*
02:58 *🧠 Principles offer general guidelines, like "distance creates leverage." They help make quick decisions in complex situations but require contextual understanding.*
05:57 *⚖️ Be cautious with principles; they can be counterproductive if not always true. Context matters, and relying blindly on principles may hinder adaptability.*
08:29 *🤔 The ideal approach is a mix of systems and principles. Systems build confidence and save time, but understanding principles is crucial for real-time decisions under pressure.*
09:40 *📍 Focus analytical breakdowns on endpoint positions-common situations like single leg takedowns. Invest time in calculable scenarios before tackling more abstract and broad concepts.*
11:03 *🔄 The future ideal is a combination of systemization and intuitive understanding. While systems are powerful, relying solely on them without principles can put one at a disadvantage.*
Made with HARPA AI
hell yeah brother
I prayed to god and created a BJJ-Project with JIRA from Atlassian. There I note everytging down, rollings, trainings, problems as you recommended in previous videos.
God bless you Jon
Sorry for my nasty english 😅
So happy to hear you are organizing it all! Makes a big difference when you try to organize and commit to breaking the game down.
@@JonThomasBJJ Absolutely. Only when I take notes do I remember details that I was not so aware of even when I was rolling. Solutions to problems can be tried out and trained directly at the next opportunity. Frustrating moments can also be worked through. I am very grateful to Jon. Thank you.
damn you put it into Jira. that's interesting. would like to see that, coming from an IT background.
@@ansborromeo7470 Hi, it would be my pleasure to show it to you and would be very interested in your input to improve it. Before I created the project, I discussed the goals beforehand with ChatGPT so it would tell me the elements for the BJJ project. I then built all of that. Then to the problems I have always linked appropriate CZcams videos. The project is growing. If you like it, you are welcome to have the project.
@JonThomasBJJ if it is interesting to you somehow, you can have it also gladly.
@@ansborromeo7470 If you want I can show it to you. I am also interested in your opinion to improve it.
My goodness the editing of this video is so slick.
Yeah I’m trying to playing with some new stuff, but also trying to not over edit when I feel it isn’t necessary
It really helps the white belts!
I wish I had thought on these terms a long time ago too
Nice that I also learn chess principles watching this video 😁
How we learn is similar to how we get into a swimming pool. No matter what you get into the water but how quickly that transition occurs will give you a different outcome. You can spend years on non resistance drilling and become really good at it but until you move that training to an actual resisting opponent, you will only be "good at" the non resistant part. If you skip the non resist part then it can be more of a shock to the system but with good couching through a more constants led approach, skill acquisition can occur quicker and will be more robust.
Yeah I agree I like to get students into dealing with resistance as soon as possible
Nice video! My brain is farting along here, so I'll just ask: systems work well when there are few enough variables. Am I right in thinking this applies to all sub finishes and all "established" positions? And that it's easier to have/use a system the more specific the position gets? (say Z mount is more specific than mount - the latter arguably has more variables)
I don't fully understand the separation between systems and principles. On the surface it seems that you NEED good principles in order for systems to work. I.e. if you know 3 good finishes to a single leg, depending on opponent's response, but your base is weak and he has better posture, you probably won't get it. How do you conceptualize this? Do you assume that decent base+posture is a part of the system?
Thanks!
🔥
🙏
That's a beautiful shirt and now i want one. 😅
Haha thanks :) Was I wearing this one when I was in Croatia?
❤❤❤
Many thanks for this awesome content.
My coach uses the ecological approach where we learn through games. Would that fall more into systems or principles (I'd guess principles)? I found I learned more things faster through games. Also, as an absolute beginner, I progressed a lot by learning bjj theory (from Jordans course)
I would say games could be both, if you are playing a game like “finish the triangle choke” even if you don’t systemize your self ultimately there will become a system that is occurring with in the triangle choke. So I think there is no need to lock your self into one or the other you should use both. I think not systemizing or studying certain positions would be missing a huge opportunity for progress and effectiveness. So in the end use both in my opinion.
❤
So basically when you have multiple options bigger general concepts work and when you have limited options then minimizing and learning the few moves for that situation works?
Shouldn’t the kettlebell sit on a lower shelf?
Probably should lol
I was watching a video the other day and I think it was about using competition footage vs instructionals for studying but I can’t find it now. Even checking my view history anyone know what that videos title is?
Jon Thomas is like a friendly bjj Keebler Elf
GREAT!👍
Any thoughts on Greg Souders' ecological approch to teaching/learning BJJ?
So I just researched a little and have heard some people explain to me so I don’t fully understand the approach but I’ll give the perspective that I can. As I mentioned in this video when you are dealing with high variable situations principles and more loose explanations can work better as the students can improvise a lot and be less stifled. However in situations where it is limited, to me there is no reason not to have some systems in place.
Because there isn’t grips in the same way in no gi as there is in gi I can see how being more general in your principles and coaching can be useful, but in gi as you can get locked up in positions way quicker I think you need to be prepared for common guards.
If you are fighting in gi and someone puts you in double sleeve there is repeatable patterns that will happen every time so there is no reason not to have plans for them. If someone tries to rely off principles in a high level open guard with no practical experience in them. They are going to overwhelmed and get caught in a lot of submission they just don’t know is coming.
Maybe I’m not understanding properly the approach he is suggesting. I just don’t see a reason to only do one you should use both principle based learning and systems.
I hate writing comments, but I find your content really helpfull since I am an analytic person and you explain it in ways I Understand it quite well. So here is the "support the channel" like and comment :D Thx for the Content!
As a white belt wouldn’t you think I should just focus on principles?
Man Jon, after I learned from you as a whitebelt I choked and nealy choked two bluebelts with the help of God. One hatet me at the first time, the other one looked me strange.
The real question is, what is your chess rating coach?
No books on that bookcase.
Lol I use an Ereader
You a chess player Jon?
algogogo
Thanks buddy!
I am a black belt CZcams-Jitsu
I think Elon is working on downloading all Jujitsu knowledge as we speak haha
Hahaha for sure! He will be black belt soon
Promo*SM
I thought the most effective way was just to like and subscribe your videos.
Hahaha great advice!
For a hobbist like me and knowing i have a reduce amount of time I think principles and conceptions are the way
I think if you have a small amount of time to train a week you should rely on principles for the big stuff but should also invest time in the core positions to systemize triangle side control ect. They will give such a huge pay off
@@JonThomasBJJ i agree jon. tks
Dude needs a hair cut
Haha it’s coming soon
@@JonThomasBJJ it’s like the horse hair they put on the traditional Chinese spear. Good for distraction 😂