The Cup's Most Radical Hulls Arrive: what should we expect?
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- čas přidán 21. 03. 2024
- With two years of recon and plenty of experience of Barcelona, we may already know what the race boats of the 37th America's Cup may look like... but will we see any extreme surprises?
Recon video and photos credit to Recon Photographer / @America's Cup
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20 min of mozzy analysis! blessed
I learn more on the AC boats from you guys than any where else! Thank you!
Our pleasure!
Nice work guys, Mozzy they should bring you in to the next cup coverage as a technical analyst.
Hello lads, very interesting technology chat! Just a curiosity, did Rob show up at your house already with that beer? 😂😂
Amazing guys cheers!
Can’t wait to see what ends up in the water, thanks for the update Mozzy and Team!
Apart from the racing, the boat reveals are perhaps the most exciting part of the Cup
Some interesting discussion. Thanks for putting this together!
Thanks!
Brilliant analysis as always. Thanks Mozzy
My pleasure!
From what I've seen so far,I think the KIWIS have hit the nail on the head,it's catch up for the others
Great video
very nice!
Man I can't wait to see these new boats.
Great episode 💪🏽
Thanks.
Thanks for great videos!
Thanks!
Very informative… thank you 👍👍⚡️🇦🇺🐉
All I know is the kiwis or us kiwis will pull out something completely different to all the teams ,, that’s a given, the last boat we never saw in full flight apparently, this time we will be properly sorted and more ready for racing
Luna Rossa's boat will probably look something like Te Rehutai
So if the bustle is deep and wide enough to fit crew members, we could see a boat with all the crew on the centre line and a minimal hull growing out to the arm pivot points. Getting more like a Moth every day ! Keep up the good work you guys, one of the teams will give you a job offer soon I expect !
How would that affect righting moment. Already foils are doing a lot of that work but is there loss with not moving crew?
@@bradclifton5248Looks like these boats will not move the crew and will probably have twin helms like the AC40s, or maybe the "pilot" can be in a central well in front of the mast ? Somebody has to be looking down to leeward. Cameras ?
@@davidbalkwill612. Team NZ will be having 2 helmsmen. You could be right in that they will all have 2 pilots. Where do you think the cyclists will be placed.
@@johnmartin7158Low down and in the centre.
Ciao Mozzy Sails, il tuo canale è cresciuto tantissimo Sono contento🎉 è dall'ultima edizione di Coppa America che non ti scrivevo. Saluti dall'Italia 🇮🇹, le tue foto sono sempre le più belle e interessanti💙💪
Hi...When do you expect to see a pair of Canard wings being fitted...🤣🤣🤣 ...could be used as stabilizers in flat calm conditions too..lotsaluck.
Asuming the weight reduction and the larger foils, the boasts are assured of flying most or all of the time, so they will look more like flying machines than the version 1 boats.
I think the opposite will be true the venue is notorious for large waves so even in good wind the hulls will often come in contact with the water. In light wind taking off will be super challenging meaning more hydrodynamic hulls might be needed
@@rydenkaye9735 Agreed, that's exactly what I was thinking. Can't wait to see what the teams will come up with and what strategies they'll take for this venue.
Hey mossy when is the switch one design boat video coming?
Great video
Its in the pipeline 🤞
Rouged cheeks and rapid blinking … at least two beers down I’d say 😆
Thanks for the analysis! What do you mean with the "organising window flow" features?
F1 cars have lots of small fins on the larger wing and body surfaces to direct the flow of air as the car passes through it. However, F1 the air always travels over the car from front to back, with maybe a yaw angle of 1-3 degrees through a corner or gust. So it is easier to place these additions so they work a lot better. On yacht, the wind will change by 30 degrees through a tack, so whatever hull shape they choose it has to be efficient through a much greater range of yaw angles.
Can someone clarify something for me?
at 14:40 they are suggesting that the "stabilizer" on the rudder provides lift to the boat.
that would be an instable design (that is why in non canard aircraft, the stabilizer actually prvide downforce ). I think it's not possible to have flight with it without feedback controol loops wich were not allowed for AC37.
so are just now aiming for the ustable design as feedback loops are allowed by the rules or is there something i'm not getting?
thanks
Haven't read the rule, so not sure what is allowed and what isn't...
but if you move the 4 cyclors inboard and just aft of the mast (in a sort of 4-pack arrangement).
And the helms and flight-controllers forward of the mast, and outboard (in a 2-pack tandem arrangement, on each side)...
Then that could create three crew blisters on a reasonably flat deck.
Plus the good weight distribution as discussed.
And potentially a good funnelling of airflow onto the mainsail deck/endplate (without needing to sink the base of the mast too much ??)
We can be sure the boats will be way more similar or near identical this time.
For the jib tack can't they do the same thing as the mast. I.e. Have it 1.5m above the waterline but then lower the deck around it and put in additional sail area below the jib tack point? This would give you are really low bow section, extra sail area and only downside would be if you went down the mine you would have very little bow section and also might be problematic with waves. Still if like F1 cars it is all about downforce and reduced frontal area for aero not for hydro issues then this is where I would go. Basically an F1 nose with a thin arm up to the tack point and sail shrouding.
Very good point and I'm not sure of the answer. I'll have to re-read the rules
Mega session thank you. If they can put the cyclors in the middle why not have one or two in front of the mast? Wouldn’t that help balance? Looking forward to the next episode - sail plan? Foil design? Start tactics?
Crew have to be in the aft 7m, except when crossing sides when they can go to 9m (so crossing in front of mast).
Very interesting, Mozzy, thanks for the video. I wonder, however, how important it is going to be to have the best hull for the cup, as opposed to having the best foils?
I reckon it’s all about the package, ultimately, and gaining few sec/mile by carefully thought out features - however I do believe the best foil/aero design will will the Cup, with hulls becoming less relevant than the last event.
Yes, it would be an interesting exercise and give a relative % for speed, maybe in terms of system drag which each of sails, hull and foils contribute.
Thay said, I do think hull form can make a big difference in terms of taking off, how they hit waves and how they endplate the whole yacht to improve efficiency of the sails
"Double down on the bustle"...enter the twin bustle. Whether tow-in (thus possibly overcoming the importance of self-initiated takeoff) would be a thing, was something that I tried to determine in the last cup cycle. If they're not optimised for self-initiated takeoff, then the game may become forcing the opposition off their foils into displacement mode and avoiding running races in marginal conditions. Elimination style-match racing.
Cheers for this! Anything to stop putting the grinders in the bow/in front of the mast? Also can they be covered by a fairing/ below deck? Would be grim for them and maybe a bit unsafe but what are the rules for crew placement/cockpits?
Yes, all crew member can go 9m forward of the stern except briefly in maneuvers or to fix something. On the old AC75 you can often see the line drawn on the decks so the sailors know where then can go.
@16:00 you hit a good point in regards aerodynamics... what would F1 redbull do.... windward downforce wings with a DRS mode when on the leeward side .... to enable you to center the crew ,.... could you configure the foil that's out of the water to optimize downforce vs forward thrust better?
I think you would struggle with the wing element to do that, but the arm can be shaped to achieve this possibly
Dear Mozzy , thanks for your analysis. What do you think about having rowers instead of cyclists, to reduce air resistance, be able to move them back and forth in the boat according to speed (reduce ruder drag) and use their impulse to get the boat out of the water?
The power in out has to be a single rotation device per sailor, so really limits to either grinding or cycling I think
Not sure if a pulling rudder would be generating downforce. Isn't that just a force balance between weight in the front and in the back?
I thought that at first but I think because the foils are not on the center line and quite outboard there would be some righting moment created by the rudder as the pivot point is the foils if that makes any sense.
Will be interesting what Grant Dalton says as he says this NZ boat is going to be very radical compared to the last one. Any ideas anyone as to what could be radical.
All crew below decks, helms in a perspex bubble! These are vastly over-powered computer-controlled aircraft and the cyclors are just keeping up a bit of hydraulic pressure to tweak the sail adjustments and make it look as though it's still a sailing yacht!
@@Toob41 And there is that as well. It sounds as though the boat is going to be significantly different to the challenger. Time will tell.
Foil sailing seems to be catching up with the old insights of flying - you would rather be front heavy than tail heavy. A front heavy plane flies poorly, a tail heavy plane flies poorly once.
As important as it remains, never has hull design been LESS important than it now is, in this foiling era of race sailing. Pl discuss! 🤔
There is greater importance attached to hull shape in this cycle due to venue conditions compared to AC36 in Auckland.
It may be that in the event of a light wind race the performance of the boat when in the water may make the difference
Very funny how YT Closed Captioning presented the word minutiae as manure @9:54. Yup, recumbents are not really good uphill for power.
😁
I think it's not just righting moment improvements from reducing the Rudder pitch load, it's also a reduction in lift based drag.
Not if it’s pulling down. Then it’s downforce based drag which is upside down lift 😂
@@rbcg105 I work in aviation, the official term we use is Total reaction. Regardless of the direction of the TR there will always be a component opposing the forward motion, called drag. Any time you can reduce the demand for TR you reduce this drag component. We called this lift dependent drag or induced drag. It doesn't matter if the pilot has rolled the aircraft 180 degrees and the lift component of the TR is pointing at the ground, it's still lift. Aerodynamics defines lift as the component of TR that is perpendicular to the air flow. It's not an up or down force. They might not speak this way in sailing, I'm not sure. Regardless the principal is the same, you want that elevator on the rudder to have the least amount of work to do. Moving the CoG of the entire boat in order to unload the elevator will reduce the TR requirement and therefore the drag component. We actually deliberately do this with aircraft as well, by biasing the loading rearward.
Agreed but perhaps these missiles don't need to go any faster, they just need good controls to help keep them the right way up.
@@Toob41 it's a race, you always have to go faster! You can gain stability by moving the centre of gravity in front of the center of lift. In this set up any disturbance that causes the main foil to increase its angle of attack and therefore lift, will create a nose down pitch. This will then reduce the foil angle of attack and the lift and the boat will settle. Problem is, in the cruise state there will be a constant nose down pitch produced by this couple that the rudder elevator has to oppose. This will increase the drag and reduce the pitch authority of the elevator. I haven't dug through the new rule to see what level of auto trimming of the foil is allowed. But a combination of that and the sailors skill will set the demand for how much you have to sacrifice pure speed for stability. There are also other considerations. Everything I have said relates to the steady cruise state at the design speed. But they also need to be able to lift off at low speeds and cope with a decent amount of wave and yes be actually manageable to sail. These will also affect the final positioning the foils.
@@greybuckleton Interesting theories. Sounds to me that you should be on with Mozzy as an adviser!
Expect two bee chasing the rabbit Weable's ❤ good luck_@m ~ ~
Watching for the first time, great tech debate but what is a busell and is that how you spell it!
So the two key terms are Bustle and Skeg. A bustle is a prominent hump.
A skeg is a finer tampering along the keel line to sharp vertical.
The teams have used mixture of the two features to aid take off with a smooth transition from displacement to flying, but then also to end plate the yacht to water and stop wind escaping underneath
Triple skegs
they should lower the boats into the water with the cover on. divers could cut it off so no one can see the hull
Full shrouding like back in 80s!
Do you think that cycling 'grinders' should be permitted? Personally I believe doing it with your arms is a much more 'honest' representation of sailing
I think the use of battery power and storage of grinding power is probably the larger supranational from 'regular' sailing than the use of arms or legs
I’m a keen cyclist and I really love it that, thanks to much-maligned UCI regs, the bike that wins the Tour de France is extremely similar to my own. 🥳. Fascinating as they are technically, F1 cars and Americas Cup yachts do alienate me more than somewhat. 🤷♂️
Whatever they do American Magic should bring the Auld Mug back to Newport.
excuse me? I may have misread your post
I’m sure American Magic will do well.
I love the technology but him tired of dinky looking foiling monohulls I want 100 feet foiling behemoths the foiling Ultims and even the ac72 look good while foiling because they're so wide but a small foiling mono just look..... Weak like a dinghy almost.
I'm with you on the majesty of the giant foiling multihulls but the enormous expense would be prohibitive in a modern AC race. That reason alone makes it a nonstarter, unfortunately.
No tacking duel or other matchracing agility if you go bigger
I like to watch them because they are fast. But this really has little relationship to a real America's cup with boats like Intrepid or J Boats like Shamrock. Kind of boring in many ways. Why not just skip to kite sails?
"Real Americas Cup" is whatever the current holder determines it to be. That has always been the case.
Kites have not proven to be better or faster rigged to large boats. At least I haven't seen any information indicating that to be the case. Perhaps in the future, but I don't think existing kite technology is superior to the double-luffed mainsail and fully-battened jib currently in use for the AC75. The R&D and crews becoming accustomed to flying kites would consume a lot of time. I'm not sure how they'd adapt them for the range of conditions race events potentially see.
Expect far less support from the New Zealand public.
@@Alfonso_111 I never complained about anything. I stand by the statement, though.
You are 100% correct, Challenger's sail in the Defenders Waters.@@kwerk2011
They get the same from me
Since you guys are defining things while interpreting them, please let’s use nautical English, not marketing BS. Can we agree to call it a Skeg or a Keel?
The America's cup has always been a disgustingly offensive use of money for a perpetually disappointing return for the sailing world. Thankfully they stopped racing the other day for a dolphin with the audacity to venture onto a grand prix race circuit. The reaction exposes just how dangerous to sea creatures a knife slicing through water at 80 mph actually is. The 'Ban All Foils' movement starts here. BAN ALL FUCKING FOILS.
BAFF!
Are foils worse than propellers?