Red Bull's Baffling Mainsheet Concept
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- čas přidán 24. 08. 2023
- This new mainsheet system from Red Bull is a puzzle and it's got me going back re-analysing what all other teams are doing. Do @alinghiredbullracing know something the others don't?
Recon video and photos credit to Recon Photographer / @americascup
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Never underestimate the engineering might of the Red Bull organization! I don't think they will win this cycle but they are going to be very competitive and a favorite for the next cycle.
Interesting observations as usual Mozzy. Variation in skin tensions to accentuate "lifting profile" of main in low wind or marginal foiling conditions seems worth experimentation. While only useful in very specific fickle wind situations the large distance losses incurred failing to get early lift off are punishing. Question is whether there is real advantage in the extra complexity.
If Alinghi reverted to the original mainsheet setup they probably didn't discover any significant payoff for the added complexity/weight of that system. I don't think it's really needed to be honest. ETNZ used a _lot_ of sail curvature last AC. More than the other teams and that gave them the advantage to take off. There shouldn't be racing in marginal conditions anyway. Last AC suffered from low breeze days and so have recent SailGP events. If they're going to continue using foiling yachts they need to be more restrictive with the weather is what I think.
Adjusting vertical tension is also required to maintain equal membrane tension when there is different outhaul on either membrane. The range of motion is slight, but it's there.
If you decrease leeward membrane outhaul, the clew moves toward the mast but also drops slightly lower. If you don't account for this vertical component, then the membrane loses tension and can't be well trimmed.
@@arlynculwick Well, this is a condition with all the boats and all the teams. If Alinghi were attempting to obtain further control and extract some advantage thereto, it seems a convoluted affair for a relatively minor potential gain. It also looks heavy although I could be wrong without a weight figure. The top teams are doing well without it. Alinghi appears no longer to be using it for the time being.
@@jamesaron1967 Yeah, the other teams may have struck the right balance with those small swivelling devices.
I thoroughly enjoyed the video, and wouldn't claim to have anything more than basis knowledge about sail trimming, so might be wrong, but I am a pilot, and might i suggest that:
Thicker aerofoils create more lift, at the expense of more drag, so are only used on slow flying aircraft. Faster aircraft use thinner wings with less camber as the higher speed of the air over the wing generates sufficient lift.
With a twin skin sail system, loosening off the outer, leeward skin will create a thicker, more cambered section, which will produce more lift (aka power) at lower speeds, when drag isn't so much of a problem, but as the boat gets up onto the foils and the speed increases, a thinner, lower cambered section producing less drag is required.
Changing the curvature on the skins will inevitably mean that the clew moves both horizontally and vertically, so differential movement will be required in both directions.
I think you're spot on. What's really interesting from the American Magic clip of they rotating the mast and bringing the leech together is how quick they go from that thick powerful set up to a more low drag finer shape once they have popped up on the foil and accelerated
We saw in the AC36 ETNZ employ a lot of sail curvature to accelerate Te Rehutai without any additional mainsheet complexity for altering the vertical differential between the two skins. It was considered one of the advantages they had to attain extra speed over the other teams to fly their boat. There are three elements affecting the cross section of these dual skin mainsails: camber - the _asymmetry_ between the windward and leeward skins; thickness - the _distance_ between the two skins; and _curvature_ of the entire mainsail. I'm not entirely certain what Alinghi was trying to accomplish with that elaborate setup and doubtful they'd reveal that to us even if the experiment was a failure.
@@jamesaron1967I think the reason for these variations on the theme are because the camber and the asymmetry are not exactly the same. Each sail of the main creates a sophisticated compound curve and the span of the wing, or the height of the sail has different tasks along its length at different speeds and wind angles. What that's going to mean practically is that you can very well have different cunningham and downhaul tensions on each skin in order to create the desired pairings of curves both windward and leeward, and top to bottom. That then, might, impact your relative leech heights.
Another "must watch" video for all the fans that like to dig into the details. It is interesting that the AM Patriot videos are from 6 month ago!
Yes, it was the first boat they packed up in Pensacola and its not been unwrapped in Barcelona yet. I'm not sure of its either been decommissioned or is having a larger refit. I think probably the former as they running out of time before they launch their new boat
It was interesting to see that this new concept from Red Bull is similar to something that AM was doing 6 months ago. AM did say they have plans to sail Patriot in Barcelona. First phase was to do foil work with the AC40 and then do further developments with Patriot.
Amazing stuff Mozzy.
love your work👍
Thank you for the info and analysis
Any time!
Fab insights Mozzy! Can’t wait for your take on the AC40s!
Another great analysis Mozzy. Can’t wait to hear and see your analysis from the first pre AC regatta next month.
Can't wait to be there... thinking about buying a long lens for my camera!
With closed loop control, and automation on the outhall rams they could be pushing the foot of the sail into a certain shape through the tack
Nice! Can’t wait for next week. Looking forward to your on the ground analysis ✌️🙏
First part of the preview show should be live this weekend
Another fascinating analysis video! Can't wait for your coverage and predictions for Vilanova.
Preview video just recorded with Rob and Tom... it's quite long so will probably split in to parts for easier digestion ahead of Vilanova
In future videos Mozzy, can you increase the size of your cursor when you are illustrating photographs.
I can see your mouse, but I think it would benefit from being a touch more obvious.
Thanks for considering it!
Good point. This was just a straight screen capture with a bit of drawing on with editing software later. I must be able to get a cursor highlighter software to use whilst screen recording
@@MozzySails thanks Mozzy!
@@MozzySailsyou can also just use a bigger mouse indicators or with different colours. That’s possible in most OS.
What would be the effect on the sail shape (of the vertical differential)?
My first guess would be twist, but it would require the trailing edge to come apart at the top which doesn't make sense.
Maybe they are trying to allow the skins at the top (or at least higher up) of the sail to come apart as it does on the bottom with the horizontal differential, but it's likely not very effective, or the play required to archive the maximum effect is much smaller and could be covered by the simpler system, and they were just testing how much play should they allow to design the system accordingly.
I'd think of it more designing the sail shape to optimise aerofoil, so less power and more towards maximising acceleration of wind flow. i.e. One skin foil creates optimum flow acceleration, whilst the other (outer) creates the propulsion force. They would then naturally align back to the same and equalise.
Are you planning on doing any livestreaming of the events or would that be blocked by TV rights? I can imagine your commentary would be a lot more exciting and informative to sailors and techies than the majority of sailing commentary I've seen in the last Cup or Sailgp
Could do a watch along
@@davestephenson2990Great idea!
Mostly I am just going to get a feel for the venue out in Barcelona and scout the place for future trips, so made sense to do it when there was racing down the coast.
I've not got any plans for specific videos and I know live video is restricted. But I always have my eyes open and I'll jave my camera so I can grab some ideas / content as and when it presents itself.
@@MozzySails what about a live audio that we could open on top of the live ? I have seen others doing so !
It looks as if they are using the skin differential to power up the main. The series of them lifting up on the foils they shift gears from power mode to speed mode. Once they are up and flying, little to no adjustments. From your earlier discussion on controls I'm thinking they might be grouping adjustments to more easily shift gears. Who knows, push button control to change gears. That would certainly be a huge change. That takes the human factor out of coordinated crew control.
yes, those large changes, all happening simultaneously could be a great opportunity for linked controls. Push one button for, maybe labelled 'pop' and the main shifts from deep and powerful to sleek and low drag
The ability to calibrate the additional controls to the data is very interesting. Yep, the push button programme solution based on entered variables could be wild! I love the fact mother nature has a final say.
I really want Australia to have a entry in the Cup. Unlikely with the cost of these boats but I will keep hoping! Cheers Mozzie for more great info.
Australia are an enigma. Opened up the competition for the first time in a century then gone... just leaving talented sailors behind on various teams. The Cup would be much better if it had an Ozzie team
@@MozzySails Spot on! We have some of the most talented sailors in the world. Maybe one day we will be back.
@@Spartan902 Australia is dominating SailGP, so hopefully a challenge for the AC will come sooner rather than later.
This reminds me of Algebra class, once every so often I think ah yeah, 3+4 is 7 i get it 🙂
Adding the french is interesting, watch this space.....
As an ex-sailmaker, I can see some advantage to having some 'slip' fore and aft, primarily for the rotating mast but I'm not sure why there's a need for the vertical compliance beyond the normal play in fabric.
I think I'd try to optimize the space between the two leeches first
I really think this is what makes sense
Could the clue board differential be being driven by a hydraulic gear motor around that Beckett?
Awesome analysis again thanks
What a dreadful noise when you slowed that video down
possibly, although I don't see a hydraulic line going to that part, if you pause at @1:10 although it's mostly obscured
When teams showing technical so open u knowing on the end getting a different system?
Yesterday I was thinking about main sheet two layer control, and headsail of course be totally different then first AC with double mainsail.
Getting interesting how new AC75 sail control and twist systems are new!
This its most evolution where teams getting power?
Foils, hull i dont know getting same more power?
Looking different but with sails and sail connecting maybe most important.
Then sails tech and moving was most interesting last cup.
Good point. I think if this was a completely game changing system which a team was confident would work, then we wouldn't be seeing it until it's too late for other to copy. But clearly all teams are playing around with how these twin skin boomless sails are worked
Please tell us you will be part of the commentary team for the cup and the preliminary regattas!? I think you’d make a great technical commentator
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'll just be there information gathering. I might get out a few bits and pieces but mostly it will be intel for future videos
Maybe live stream an audio commentary while we double screen the pictures on another device?
good shout. I hope at least to do some little updates via my phone. But it's also working logistics of getting that uploaded and in a format for consumption on CZcams or Instagram
@@MozzySails yeah true. I hope you’ve at least got media accreditation.
Adrain Newey magic maybe
;)
Looks like it's electric controlled.
Are you still racing your rs800?
Yes, did the Europeans earlier this summer and this month did Chichester Harbour Race Week. Unfortunately I can't do the Nationals this year due to family but I'll be back again racing it in 2024
Try windsurfing
I do a bit of windsurfing, check my Instagram... I'm.not terribly great at it though!
Interesting. From my 'un-educated' perspective, I have followed various sources discussing F1 aero topics, and also some sources regarding aeronautical wing design - I re-state I am not qualified in such matters. However one topic re-occurs in what I read and watch, and it is the idea of 'dynamically changing wing form' i.e. the shape of the wing adapting to conditions. Could it be that engineers (not the sailors) are searching for a solution that gives them the maximum possible control over the wing form, regardless if it is possible to use it ( in a practical sense). I mean, could we be seeing the engineers designing 'options' for themselves, regardless if it gives a current performance advantage? Or alternatively are they trying to find the optimum control mechanism that the crew are capable of controlling for competitive advantage (i.e. iterating between one method of control and another until they find the one that the crew can control best??) As I said, very interesting, and as usual, very informing. My thanks.
An interesting point. I always wonder how much of these control capabilities are driven by the sailors versus how much come from design
It throws back to what ETNZ have mentioned in the past about throwing the ball as far as they can and then trying to catch it. I wonder if it is the designers trying to create the most “ideal” trimming system that works on the computer and then seeing if the sailors can learn to use it and how it works in real life
@@86sailing Bingo! Exactly what I was trying to express - but you did it with fewer words, and more precisely. My thanks.
@86Sailing. I'm thinking along the same lines except with grouped control capability the computer is going to be doing fine controls.
@@peteharper3614 I think it's more likely the computer's going to be adjusting some ratios within a grouping but the trimmer is going to be do the fine control to the conditions at hand.
Thanks for the analysis mozzy! Did not know anyone does such great coverage. This is what engineering students need. 🥹
Glad you think so!