Video není dostupné.
Omlouváme se.
Why to avoid applying carbody filler/Bondo over etch primer Tips and Tricks #29
Vložit
- čas přidán 17. 08. 2024
- If you feel that you would like to help support Trev’s Blog channel please consider making a donation, money raised from donations will be used to buy tools and equipment to help produce new videos. Click on this PayPal to make a donation www.paypal.me/...
Buy a Trev''s blog planishing hammer and help support this channel!
Shop website: www.trevs-blog...
xtremeplasma.e...
Please feel free to contact me (Trevor Hatton). auto-shaper@mail.com
Visit my website auto-shaper.com/
MUSIC
Intro 1975 by Josh Kirsch/Media right productions.
Outro Three kinds of suns by Norma Rockwell.
Life saver just about to etch prime an ali bonnet and was possibility of filling over the etch. Now i know i’ll make sure any filling is done 100% first. Thanks Trevor
Trev,
Being an oldster it truly pleases me to see the younger crowd embrace the vintage sheet-metal. If it isn't saved in a timely fashion there won't be anything left to save. Viewing your metal work at the end of this video indicates to me that you have a strong desire to produce high quality pieces. For this sake you should be very proud of what is, in my opinion, art.
As for your music, I must say that it is quite enjoyable. As I've said before, it reminds me of the "surf music" that was the rage in the 1960's and 1970's with Dick Dale and the Ventures. It brings back pleasant memories of my youth with drives to the beach in cars of my creation such as my 1955 Chevrolet. I hope that you're able to find a solution for the dilemma of integrating your music with the videos. Thanks for taking a few moments to share your knowledge. The chemicals can get complicated as there seems to be a constant evolution of the products. All of the best.
William Charles Strong agreement - both on the technical content of the videos and the Surf music/Dick Dale influence.
Informative video, etch primers have their place, just not under fillers for sure. Personally I've gone epoxy for all my DTM applications and haven't looked back.
Always look forward to your new videos.
Thanks again!!!
Thanks, all makes sense now. back in the garrage and removed it all back and re-filled. History: welded a patch in, painted with hammerite rust beater, filled,primed = reaction live and learn.
Waiting on more primer, hopefully successful now
That’s fantastic 👍
Most clear cut info I’ve seen on this subject. Thank you!
Simple rule, if thinners effects it, you can't fill over it. Because filler has a solvent which loosens it off.
I found this out years ago. 35 years of getting it wrong, and anyone who says they know it all, is talking out of what they sit on.
Another brilliant vid, keep it up.
Sometimes we need the information that makes sense. You gave it to anyone that can think a little bit. Thanks!
thank you! I find always find it much easier to remember things when they are explained and the process understood...
Another great video. I was caught out re-painting a bonnet on a car where the repair underneath bled through with the thinners in the paint. I used a product called Barcoat (U-POL) to spray over the area of the repair after removing the top coats over the repair and then refinishing the bonnet. Polyester resin body filler can also never harden and feel soft when you add too much catalyst and will delaminate if the metal underneath is not keyed in by sanding or the metal is not free of oil before applying the filler.
Barcoat is brilliant
Artisan in metal Trev.. you are!!!! Incredible attention to detail and your ability to teach reminds when when I taught a course as a metal artist but also a metal tradesman in the oilfield as well as a trades instructor for structural welding and pressure. They asked me to teach beginner course on metal forming and shaping through this college local to me and it was a riot. You however blow my skills out of the water on light gauge and I am learning much from you. A lot of what I was doing was heavy welded metal faces or gargoyles out of scrap and then after my near death had to stop welding and have started working these tin masks and copper faces and working in wood because welding and eye issues suck. So keep up the great teaching and am wondering what that van looks like. Suspense, but it is worth the wait with your skills!!!! Bang on blog mate! I can tell you are an artist at the core of all these skills because of your honest passion. Inspiring!!!!
i started using hb body because a friend of mine worked there and told me how good his boss was and the best employer he ever had and everybody loved him. one of the bet value for money products even if is a small business. thanks for the info you saved us a LOT OF TIME AND LABOR AND MONEY in the end
I have gone through similar copyright issues, and it is extremely frustrating. Love the content, keep it up.
A lot of people getting stung by that copyright move - I actually think it's a business model by some unscrupulous folks. Release music copyright free, then later release it proper and put in claims.
Of course CZcams should be able to reverse it, I mean in theory it should go by date of publishing - and it was free to use at that point.
But getting any sort of unscripted and useful communication from CZcams.... well comes back to what you said about it being easier to make a time machine.
But! Another superb video! Years ago I'd run into that same issue for same reasons - if I'd used 2 part filler over 1k primer. To be fair, back then the instructions always said to take it back to bare metal, fill, then prime and I presume that's why.... But who follows instructions!!! Am I right, or am I right 😂
BIG truth @ 14:57! Thank you for your time, your lessons, your honesty and your effort in all you do to teach so many of us!
Yes, sometimes you may be wrong, like you said, nobody's perfect, but the mistakes, if any, are far inferior compared to the precious information you offer to us!
You, sir, and Diagnose Dan, are the two guys who make me regret I have had to leave Europe and now live somewhere else. I would have loved to have the chance to learn from you guys 'face-to-face", to feel the real thing, not just watch and listen...
But that option is quite equal to 'making a CZcams video that EVERYONE likes" :-)
Thank you, sir!
This is why we love this channel 😀
Thanks for the primer information you just saved me a nightmare
Good info. I'm not a painter, but I use Etch Primers inside of inaccessible areas often. (Doors, quarters, fenders, etc) I was not aware of this before. Now that you say it, it makes perfect sense.
a perfect example of the difference in chemicals, and how they react, for me, was when i first began using evercoat fillers. i wont mention particular names, but 2 of them you could mix, to make a decent build, but runnier, for less pinholes, however a 3rd evercoat filller could not be mixed with either, because they have incompatible resins. good to point that out trev, always enjoy sharing experiences:) afew months ago i picked up a trick for making fillers, and fiber-fillers runnier...wet-lay laminators resin. everything i have tried it with, it works great.
Thanks Trev, again great info Mate. Cheers Billy J.... upside down here in OZ.
Thanks Trev - a good and informative video, I now understand why I had a problem painting my TR6 bonnet a few years ago , I had to strip the paint off several times before I got rid of the outline of filler.
Thanks again👍
Great video, been with cars since 14, 55 now, and still lear ning thanks to you, Big Thompson up and hat off 💪💪💪
Great information would never thought of it till after all done then seen the issue .
Thanks again
i used hb body 989 epoxy primer on my car. it sat out in the rain and weather car used almost daily for 9 months i can see no rust anywhere .
highly recommended the product if you're respraying a vehicle and you don't have the luxury of a garage or workshop
I've use that epoxy primer on everything and even had it out in the sun and winter for 3 years! That stuff is bullet proof and it works great wet on wet with 2k satin black! I wouldn't use anything else over bare metal. Even unsanded bare metal and rust metal. Sticks like glue lol
All same here!!! Keep Rocking it out!!!
yer, when epoxy came along, it pretty much made etch old technology, and not the "prefered method". however you can buy 2k etch "primers" now, with activated hardener
Is it tintable?
@@southjerseysound7340 Yes!!! I believe so!!!
@@rockerpat1085 tintable with enamel or base coat ?
Don't worry Trev, I'm a gynaecologist and I haven't practiced since 1999, but I do my best to keep my hand in ! Great video.
Trev you do a great job, This is outstanding info for those of use that are not in the trades.
Absolutely love your channel! So helpful for the novice DYI’er restoring a classic (or at least attempting to). THZNKS so much!
Another great informative video Trev. Looking forward to more van videos !!
Cheers, Jeff.
cabdriveruk it’ll be worth the wait Jeff 🤩 cheers Trev 👍
I've had the ring around filler problem loads of times on different projects. I've tried a few different solutions to no effect but this sounds like the answer. Many thanks.
Thanks. This is why I am removing ALL Bondo and not reapplying any more.
I love you kind of guys with body work blogs.
Epoxy primer gives a chemical bond as well as mechanical bond being the main advantage. I've had sheets of filler come off on a panel that had epoxy because it wasn't keyed after application. Was told it was ok to apply filler as long as was within a week window. Like you say, these days I'll let it fully dry before scuffing and applying filler. Thanks for sharing your experience, totally agree with your procedures.
Plant Powered Health I hear people state that you’ve got a 7 day window because the epoxy is constantly shrinking it grips onto the product that’s placed on top. I’ve recoated within around half an hour it’s still tacky then, I would never paint any product on the top of it any later personally. I’ve had some small brackets that I didn’t prep really well around bolt holes and when I’ve tightened the bolt the paint breaks lose as it hasn’t stuck well enough. Cheers Trev 👍
@@trevsblog Would it be possible to paint or apply filler over that epoxy after the 7 days and avoid problems by sanding??? I thought you meant that. But here you mention not to let it dry longer than 7 days.
loscarnm basically what I’m saying is a lot of people say that you can apply anything to epoxy within a 7 day time frame. In my opinion this is massively risky. My opinion is to leave it at least 7 days, this way it is fully hardened and has stopped shrinking. Then rub it down with 180g to key the surface and create a mechanical bond. You are now almost guaranteed to be able to apply fillers or primers on top of the epoxy without the risk of it pealing off. Hope this helps clarify things for you, I’m here to help as best as I can. Cheers Trev 👍
Your so right about chemical reactions. Nice job mate.
Thank You for the information as attempting to bring a 32 year young pick-up back from the edge.
I did chuckle about your turn signal switch as it was made 30-45 minutes from where I live.
Even had a few hanging around in the basement.
Hey Trev, Hello from California USA. Our state has outlawed some good old solvent paints which makes longevity a thing of the past. We have a water bourne paint being used in paint shops. I had a classic car painted in 2009 when this new law was released. needless to say my $4000 two stage paint job only lasted two years before the clear began to peel. I've since decide to start over by eliminating the body fillers and do the body dent removal myself. I have extra panels that I can repair off the car which allows me some practice and with keep the car intact and drivable until it has to be pulled apart again. The previous paint job took 21 months before I got the car back. I'm watching your videos to get more in volved with the outcome with less guess work of what was done by the last guy. As for the music on your videos, that is a shame. The surf/rockabilly guitar was awesome. I hope you can find another sound track as good as the previous videos. Thank You Sir.
Can you take your car out of Cali to get painted?
@@tezzrterry7485 I can take it to Arizona or Nevada. I've been informed of urathane paints that can be sprayed in local shops. I'm getting more info by the day. The previous shop took it down to bare metal but primed it and let it sit for months outside. The body work had too much filler used and not much metal work. I took pics while it was going through the process. I know what areas had stretched metal that could have been shrunk but they chose the easy way out. The quarter panels were really bad since every panel on the car was dented. Its a '63 full size Pontiac. I've been blessed to find doors and replacement fenders. I'm thinking about using single stage paint next time.
@@rickysmalling4507 Single stage paint looks good on older cars, it suits the era.
Tezzr Terry the color I'm wanting to use is called "Dark Marlin Aqua". It was used on the '63 Pontiac code QQ. It was an acrylic laquer. I've seen a similar color single stage with some metallic in a urathane. Its made here in Ca. I have to connect with paint supplier and sprayer to see if it will last . My Pontiac is a daily driver, it is outside most of its life. If I can get even 10 years out of the paint then I will have met the challenge.
Our products in Australia must be a little different somehow. I learnt that way and have always used an etch primer over the metal to stop moisture from the filler exothermic reaction coming back as rust later down the track. in 35 years I have never had a failure, maybe just lucky.
Great explanation .
Thank you Trev, love your work
Hope you have been well Trev. All the best from down under
Top stuff again, I'm still a bit confused with primers, but I have just had try with epoxy "primer" over here, they call it appret which seems to be "undercoat" for general steel painting, primer seems to for auto body work as I think they are saying it gives a smoother finish to the final paint. The main thing I took away though is that epoxy will protect the steel from rust pending further work.
Iv done this. Rattle can etch primer. Red scuff pad. 3m filler. 2k primer 2k sealer. Urethane base and clear. No issues after 2 years now but probably just dumb lucky. I did use the premium line of 3m filler. Definitely don't skimp on filler. The 20-30 dollar difference is worth it. Most jobs I see fail are from filler failing. But now I'm wiser and put epoxy then filler down. I do this instead of just filler on bare metal because if the filler ever gets exposed to air and moisture it's likey to rust the metal it's bonded too and fail. Also most epoxy primer have long window of additional chemical bonding 3-7 days which is grear Additional adhesion.
Great info as usual Trev …. Cheers
Really good info on the difference of paints and using filler, reason i was looking at this info is because i was worried about filling over welding and it not protecting it fully, so 2k primer sounds the way to go then filler
Fill over epoxy, rather than standard 2k 👍
Ahh that explains why I sat through a whole video thinking I’m sure I’ve seen this then my picture popped up at the end 😂 sorry you had to go through all this rubbish Trevor. All the best. Steve.
Thankyou Trev. Well explained.Love it. You may get lucky with etch primer under filler if you want to take the risk.... Just 3 ultra ultra thin coats of primer allowing time for thinners to evaporate between coats over the filler to reduce the amount of thinners penetrating the surface.
David Beer that’s right I got away with it initially because I’d only put a very light coat on and I perhaps didn’t put the first coat of 2k on heavy enough for it to creep under the filler, there are just so many variables when dealing with paintwork. Cheers Trev 👍
Your channel is going so well, surely keep the adds on for your family Trev, viewers can easy skip them if they like. As time files u will get many more views, surely it is worth something eventually as the hits build up
Colin Stables the adds are in buddy, I have the adds set to the least aggressive as I don’t want to put people off from watching. Cheers Trev 👍
Thanks - really confirms this issue as a problem
So glad I found your very interesting channel, thanks for your cool information, never would have thought about this! You Rock Trev!
Hi Trev, thanks for another amazing episode.
Cheers :)
Cheers Trevor this explains what has happened to me in the past
Hey Trev I'm in my first year in the industry and last year I did a introductory course in collision repair. I did a closed. Door respray on my car last year and think I may have sprayed Etch over filler but fortunately not the other way around lol as I haven't experienced the problems mentioned in this video. I am currently doing a full resto on an 87 prelude and think I will metal condition to clean remaining rust particles on bare steel then use epoxy rust converter over that to cover it, as opposed to Etch.
Great stuff again Trev!! 🎉 Greetings from Finland!
Trev thanks for this. This Is a great video & we'll explained. Also confirmed my worries. I've got to start again, oh dear.
What I would love more than anything in the world is some tips on tig welding etched body panels. I cannot for the life of me get decent welds on old body panel metal that has been etch primed. I painstakingly remove the primer, sand to bare metal, clean again and it still welds super dirty.
If surface prep discs can’t do it then I’m out of ideas 👍
Thanks for another great video Trev!
Awesome, just the info this novice needed. Thanks
As usual, very interesting Trev.
Great entry and exit. And of course the content!!
I am new to using 2K as well. My local paint supplier said to fill over the epoxy, then do your sanding. I thought I was being led on but after repairing my boot spoiler I've found it "keys" well with 240 grit dry. Still getting used to you saying "key" Trev. You know us Aussies call it "block sanding".
Chemical incompatibility has bit me in the back side more than once. You never know what is going to happen when going over another's work.
I'm glad I haven't painted my car yet. I think I might have used etch primer around some patch panels. I'm not sure so I'm just gonna strip it back to bare steel and start over. Thanks for the info. Glad I subscribed to your channel.
Daniel Lawson before you do all that!!! Why not just scuff it a tad with 300-400 grit and spray it with some epoxy primer. This blister thing while true isn’t near the problem it comes off in this video.
another winner thanks Trev
Great info as always thanks
👍👍👍😜🏴😁✌️
Fantastic video trev mate
Thank you for all the great videos, sure helped alot.
i found this really interesting Trev. Ive seen this myself. Thanks
Good video Trev ! Very true on the etching filling never put bondo over etch primer. Especially when the panel has been media blasted, the media will leave small pits for the gases from the etch primer to take a bit to evaporate. The epoxy primer is as some say is bullet proof. I use it over everything & I put it everything over including : Al., Cast iron, Stainless steele, fiberglass with no treating & no problems long term. You do have a window with the epoxy primer 24-48 hrs. depending on the environment, after the window is closed scuff sand the epoxy & spray a single coat. No Worries after that. Be sure you give all your primers from Epxoy, 2K, & my favorite Polyester filler ( Concrete in a can) & DON"T BUILD The layers up or pile it on it only makes matters worse. Another big peave of mine is if I start out with one brand of product I stay with that product from start to finish. No paint bench chemistry here ! One thing I really like about the spray can of etching primer is if I have a sand thru & I am close to painting grab a can spray a light coat over the sand thru & paint ! Thanks Paul !
To be clear for us beginners, it is ok to fill over epoxy primers but not etching primers. When there will be time before all the work can be done something has to be applied to prevent rust once the body is stripped. So my understanding is to strip, repair, epoxy prime, body fill to flatten and then a high fill primer, flatten again then paint. Yes, no?
Michael Vitetta yes buddy it sounds like you’ve got it. Cheers Trev 👍
Always very informative Trev, and for all my next projects I will only fill directly to keyed and prepped metal. Bit of a bummer regarding the CZcams snafu. Please re post, as I am the one the many whom have only just discovered you. 👍
Etch prime is for over smoother bare steel (180grit or higher) at a very thin transparent coating - too thick is bad news....... Epoxy primer is for use over a well roughed/prepped surface (under 80grit) in which you can spray 2K over it... Bondo/Filler is made for use over bare metal & needs 2K over it.......
Filler is made for epoxy too(chemical bond) as well as mechanical when you key it up. Most restoration shops use epoxy after grit blasting then do body repairs after/on top of epoxy. Filler on bare metal is the old way,not quite as good, but can still work, I'd only use it on small sections if I was going to use filler on bare metal.
Been there, done that, and sucks when its the final paint job that suffers😐
Good stuff! Keep it up Trev!
thanks again.
made me think, i have used etch on the underside of my mini, i plan to use that raptor 2 stuff on it, maybe itll react... i should have used the hp bodies stuff, but i was lazy!
Avtovaz21057 it may still be ok and a reaction would probably not happen, if you can mix a small quantity, why not paint a small section and see what the result is. Cheers Trev 👍
The body shop guy, who owns his shop, came over to my house to give me a quote on a paint job for my 81 Camaro. I'll be doing the bodywork.
But we were talking for a while about different stuff to do about primers, surfacers and paints.
He had some warranty work come back every now and again where he, or his workers, applied filler to bare metal. It would come back with some defects or whatever. He fixed it because of his warranty.
He then figured out to use self etch primer spray bomb can on the bare metal before he applied the filler.
NO MORE WARRANTY CLAIMS CAME IN!
He thought that some how if the metal wasn't perfectly clean, the etch primer some how must of killed or consumed the contamination. Weird.
Very well explained, Trev!
I asked the technical support of my paint manufacturer regarding using Bondo over their EP primer wet-in-wet. For my product there is a time window between 1 and 24 hours for painting over it without sanding. They told me that it is possible to use body filler in that time window. I did it and it worked perfectly. However I sprayed in the afternoon and waited until the next morning - then the EP primer was mechanically quite robust and did withstand the putty knife.
Tunicht Gut I’m sure you can apply it before it’s fully cured because it’s shrinking and this effect grips the filler, but I’d rather know for a fact that I’m going to get the same results every time. Cheers Trev 👍
Good idea. Thanks for the information.
Trevor, you should fight the copyright strikes. You got the permission to use the music. Many times it's a BOT that flagged the music or a third party that flagged and make the report.
So if you got anything from the author of the music in writing like an email or a letter giveing the permission. Fight the strike. By not fighting that strike, the individual that made the copyright strike claim will get the money from the adds shown on your videos. That's why it's important to fight any claims.
lepompier132 thanks but no big deal and I didn’t actually get a proper strike thank goodness. So more lessons learned I won’t be using music other than my own or royalty free. Cheers Trev 👍
I've used bondo filler over rustoleum etch primer with great results. No lines/ ringing, no softening or peeling.
also if you taught me how to paint i would 100% end up pulling my keys out of my pocket and scratch up the surface... when you mean to sand it.
so have I and got away with it...for a while. Even Rustoleum states in their TDS "do not use under filler or polyester putty".
Thank you very much. Very informative.
Good on you Trev!
Great video thanks . I'm going to use this epoxy primer on my VW Mk2 golf build and its been a great help this video and the paint mixing video 4.1.1 was also very helpful thanks again . Also cant find the Ebay link for the hammers i would like to buy one !! I've have subscribed to the backing bird and wish you all the best .
Just a beginner here, but it seems like the ideal process for paint layers goes like this: 1) Epoxy on bare steel or sanded coatings 2) Filler over epoxy 3) High build over filler 4) Epoxy seal coat 5) Base 6) Clear.
The TDS sheets for the Shopline high build primer (which I'm going to use) say that high build primer is OK to apply over 2K etching primer. The big difference is that the etching primer is 2K. Just to play it safe and to keep costs down, it's just easier to use epoxy.
It depends what you’re doing. If you’re doing a long term restoration and you want to prime bare steel then leave it for months before painting then I personally think epoxy primer is the way to go. The only thing I’d reconsider is swapping process 3 and 4 around. If it’s a fast turnaround job then I’d probably fill over bare steel then etch the bare steel areas and 2K primer on top.
@@trevsblog So it's OK to apply 1K primer over body filler because the solvents in the filler have already fully cured?
@@livedeliciously in theory it’s ok to put any type of primer over filler. The problem with putting filler over 1K type primers is that the solvent in the primer that you then put over the top of the filler can then leach under the filler separating the filler from the 1k primer. If you put filler over the top of cured epoxy the epoxy has set, a chemical reaction has happened and the primer can no longer become fluid. If that makes any sense 👍
@@trevsblog Yes, that makes sense. The solvents in the high build primer are able to penetrate through the body filler. So although there is a physical boundary, the body filler is still porous.
The TDS for my Shopline epoxy says to wait 15 minutes between coats (one coat of epoxy), but also calls out 15 minutes for dry time (one coat as well). Does this mean that the chemical adhesion window is only good under 15 minutes? I want to apply epoxy prior to high build primer.
@@livedeliciously typically epoxy takes longer to cure than 2K when they say 15 minutes this could be considered a minimum time as the initial shrink is the most the primer products will shrink in total. Because the 2K dries faster there could be a chance that the 2K will split as it would be sitting on top of a fluid wet coat of slower drying epoxy, if you were to overcoat epoxy with 2K without waiting.
There is a flex additive to combat the brittle chipping issues
Always great information! Could you do an episode on when to use different types of primers. For people doing old cars you can have a mix of old paint,bare metal, bondo that you are covering, when do you use which? Seems like I need to use multiple primers. Can you explain when to use: etch, 2k, epoxy, 1k, high build, sealer (are some of these them same thing?) , sealer before or after bondo? which one first which one last?
Thanks Trev!
Thanks for the great info.
great work trev :)
thanks for your time, interesting !
I literally put filler over etch primer today, Hopefully it will be alright as it's just to fill some little pits in the metal
Love your heart felt work keep it up you are always welcome in our house. Pete.
I really appreciate this video upoad. I was just about to block sand etch primer with 80 grit and then apply filler over the sanded results. Question: What about fillers can I use a EVERCOAT filler over BONDO filler? Different brands over each other etc.
Trev, a little side note from America. What you call "keying up" is called adding "tooth" here. At least what I've always heard. Sorry for your troubles whit You Tube but please carry on!
Alan Susnow thanks but really no big deal, I can simply upload the effected videos. It annoying but far worse things happen. Cheers Trev 👍
Useful information.
Good video trev. Some of the paint products you show are not available in the us.
Copyright claims on 50's Rockabilly, thats beyond bizzare given that copyright is primarily about protecting income, and that the vast majority of the performers of that genre made no money at all. They changed the term of copyright here in blighty from a straight 50 years on recordings, to 70 years around about the time the early Beatles stuff was dropping out of copyright. So anything recorded before 1949 will be ok, maybe some very early Hill billy Bop :)
They'll make claims on the most obscure music out there just to get the add revenue.
Fanakapan222 the issue came about from a modern band producing a retro surf recording. No worries, get it sorted and move on. Cheers Trev 👍
Very useful. Thanks.
Hi Trev. Have use used LECHLER SPAT O PLAST 05 541 stopper. You can use on top of epoxy primer to fill quite deep imperfections. It works very well as long as it's fully cured.
Philip Knowles no I haven’t used it but thanks for the info. Cheers Trev 👍
Short & sweet👍
Trev what happens if there is a small bit of rust on the spot weld and you put the filler on?
I just subscribed to your channel because you replied to my comment on Goonzquad's channel. 😜
Great info here ....I try to avoid any air dry products underneath filler and paint
Hi Trev . At work ,a lot of our parts are acid etch primed usually for internal cabin aircraft parts. These parts are all part marked with marker pen. I grabbed the thinners to remove my marks pen mistake and Vhoila the primer all came off .. didn't I feel a prize plum. Regards Don.