Calling Out Hifi and Vinyl Pundit Michael Fremer! Is He Out of Touch? Gatekeeper?
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- I gently rip into Michael Fremer and his recent and past comments about fellow CZcamsrs.
Recent Tracking Angle video where clip was taken from: • iSonic CS 6.1-PRO "Ult...
MODAC $3 Patreon: / myowndevices
Instagram: MyOwn.Devices
“Everyone wins, when all the channels grow”. Well said!
Well said, Chance!
No!!! Because some out there just spew complete garbage and miss direction.
This channel is primarily from the heart.
I don't think Michael was speaking directly
We don’t need gatekeepers anymore. Thx
@@MODAC WE !!!you are in a Public forum.
Stop living in your own head
I can build my own
DAC
Amps
Speakers
Power supplies
I've been in Electronics & Computers for more than 40 years.
Much of what is said is just myth!! but it works in the MFGs favor again I don't see you as one misleading others for the pure pleasure of it.
But Remember you are in a public forum
People like myself actually know how the circuits work.
On top of my HIFI gear I own tens of thousands of dollars of equipment for Diagnostic/Repair/Design.
For Sure I'm not just another talking head.
I like your style .
But too much real knowledge exists for me to be a groupie.
Keep doing what you do!!! we live in a world where if the perfect system was actually developed plenty would disagree.
I spent decades traveling around the country went and just getting fully back deep in the hobby.
There are technical reasons why some things sound good and others bad
( explore that just a little please)
@@MODACOuch, I thought this was a real review channel? The scientific method requires replication and publishing findings and calling out people when their findings are suspect. Just the past month someone was caught cheating on the study data and was fired. I would expect hope YT reviewers to respond when a YT review goes wrong like when a popular reviewer got the B&W review wrong and many YT reviewers pointed that out. Your saying their gatekeepers? Well I’m thankful there are reviewers like them. Aren’t you most audiophiles I know appreciated that. You’re an audiophile first right? I’m for free speech if a reviewer really thinks the review was correct then that’s the review but what if one didn’t take the effort of a good set up and pushed a review that missed a lot like totally the reviewer shouldn’t be called out?
I watched this video from Fremer .............and I do fully agree with him!
You shouldn't be concerned or disturbed by his video ......
Well said. Very much agree, Frank.
I bought my first stereo in 1964. It has been a lifelong hobby for me. Michael Fremer is definitely worthy of the esteem in which he is held. His distress at 'wet behind the ears' 'wanna be' audiophiles pontificating on CZcams is understandable. That said, what he fails to grasp is that, we all gravitate to what resonates with us and part of what determines what we embrace is the state of our own development in this hobby. I watch my share of CZcams videos on audio and when I see that the content hasn't anything to offer me at that point in my journey, I simply move on. And what may be covered may only be gear I can't afford, as is often the case with the gear Michael covers, so for me what's the point of my investing the time to watch his videos? That's why youtubers like the "CheapAudioman" are so popular, he covers gear that anyone can afford. There are far more people who can afford a modest investment in stereo gear than there are people for whom cost is a distant consideration. People of modest means, those interested in 'lifestyle' gear and those who simply aren't interested in large investments of money and time are NOT Michael's audience. His natural 'audience' will never consist of a large number of people simply for the factors listed above.
Excellent comment!
@@arte2arquitetomy audience includes many young people and my writing staff runs from an 18 year old and up but of course you don’t know any of that
Well said, Sir!
I think Michael is calling out those who shill products, specifically calling out experts who don't listen to the products, yet rate them highly. There are those who actually promote the plastic usb turntables, as well as the portable ones, who present themselves as experts. I think THESE are the folks to whom Michael is referring.
While I think it's fair to say Michael is taking a shot across the bow of some CZcams channels, I don't think he's taking a shot across YOUR bow. That said, I think Michael could have been more specific with his criticism instead of lumping every channel together.
Let it be known that your experience, thoughtful advice, and passion have made you someone I consider knowledgeable, which is why I am taking the time to write this...
I understand what he’s saying. As a physician I hear everything about what people read on Dr Google-regardless of content credibility or authorship. Most is snake oil. So Fremer has a valid point. If you don’t like him, don’t watch him.
Audio is so subjective, there is no right answer when ranking equipment, Everything deserves a look, only ears can decide.
Fremer is Mr. Snake Oil. Guys like him need to take Bob's advice for the times are changing.
omg David - the clip from Fremer, which I too saw originally, was nothing but truth - - click bait shenanigans? the top dog? the big kahuna? etc - - he said none of those things nor displays any of those things in his demeanor, your generalized over exaggerations are exactly you doing what you're calling out Michael for doing - - and I have no idea why you would think that Michael would be referring to you or your channel, which I always enjoy and would rate among the very best out there but yeah, imo, he was nuts on in that clip - I'd sight exchanges I've had with a few channels that I wouldn't bore anyone reading this with myself - there are indeed statements made out there in YT land that are simply unqualified and actually less than or not true at all and happen to be, imo, exactly what Michael is referring too - you yourself expressed the differences in experience you have in comparison to Michael (and I get that nobody knows everything including me, you and Michael) but again, you're channel is nonetheless exceptional in the realm that it's framed in - so imo, again, Fremer's comments are not directed toward you or your channel at all - and what's prompting me to comment to begin with is that there's especially no need for you, a very elite presenter, to defend those comments that his remarks may be intended for. You seem to be coming across like he's dissing all the other channels, clearly, that's not his intent.
I'm surprised he didn't delete your post yet. Mine's gone. So is some of the content he put out yesterday. Damage control. The channel is more important than the truth. The sad part is, I just thought he made an honest mistake and didn't realize what Fremer was talking about.
My comment was not directed here. It was a general comment that’s as true about your physician as your audio advisors.
....oh Boy!
I think Fremer is correct in his observations, most of the reviews on YT are thrown together by people who have never even touched half of what they speak about.
I’ve seen quite a few of Fremer’s videos where he seemed to be not very well prepared or unfamiliar about a product he was demonstrating.
They are? Do you have proof to show of this? Because I’ve been watching HiFi channels on here for years. And most reviews are of a product that they have in their house with them. And that they’ve listened to obviously. ✌️
I think Fremer is correct to a point to a point. He has tried the equipment he speaks of, heck he either owns it or like Steve Guttenberg and other reviewers has it in on extended loan.
When some reviewers mention things like the point of diminishing returns, you can almost tell they have never owned the products they speak of because they never talk about the actual comparisons or their use of the product, this is what Fremer is talking about. Experience has its privileges, but arrogance can bite you in the ass.
There is one guy that Fremer or no You Tuber can say this about and that is Jay’s Audio Lab, he owns products that even Fremer and other reviewers can’t possibly afford to buy, but have out on extended loan past there reviews for reference system comparisons.
Michael’s issue is sometimes he doesn’t think before he speaks, and he can say some inappropriate things at times even with Vinyl he makes comments when it comes to cleaning records that these self made cleaning solutions will harm or destroy your records, which just isn’t true.
Even Steve Guttenberg says he had a bad experience with a vacuum cleaner and he has never bought another because he cleans his records in his sink. We must learn to enjoy the hobby and these channels for what they are a hobby.
@@sidvicious3129"When some reviewers mention things like the point of diminishing returns, you can almost tell they have never owned the products they speak of because they never talk about the actual comparisons or their use of the product, this is what Fremer is talking about. "
That's a good observation. Most of us that have some experience with this type of equipment don't think in terms of diminishing returns. Its more of a minimum acceptable performance. Once you get used to a certain standard, its hard to accept anything less. It may cost a lot more to get a small improvement, but that's just what you have to buy, otherwise you won't be compelled to listen to it. That's why when people talk about downsizing their system it almost never works out.
@@AT-wl9yq You hit the nail on the head!!
I have listened to multi-million dollar systems all the way down to a Bose travel sound bars. We can all figure out which "reviewers" we line up with. I have been in the audio game since the mid 1970's on a continual basis and have a keen sense of what sounds good (at least that's what my recording engineer brother says). Of course I grew up on vinyl. As a senior, I still have a modest vinyl rig (by some standards) to play my pristine vinyl collection. I now am mostly digital based (not streaming). In the day, I returned probably at least 30% of the vinyl due to pops, clicks, skips and warped records. it ruined my enjoyment of the moment. It's my opinion that you have to spend way more on a vinyl rig to to match a more "modest" digital solution. Digital has taken leaps and bounds in the last several years and will continue to advance more than analog in my opinion. Probably the one thing we can agree on is that it's the recording, mixing, mastering, writing and performance that truly makes that largest difference. Just my two cents.
I definitely understand both piont of views...Digital and or vinyl playback...and the type of systems needed to "PLEASE One's Own Taste " on this Great hobby...now haven said that Mr. Frema...Can get in my opinion some what arrogant ...About gear..his know of /and or what's. Hi-Fi considered...We all seek different sounds... Acorrding to our taste and budget...And Thank's the Trurh- Lily Thompson🙊🙉🙈✌️
I can appreciate both forms of playback I just like older recordings, they just sound better to my ears. The instruments sound more real IMO. But it is a lot of keep up with vinyl to keep them sounding great, but for me it is worth it to get that 20 minute fix. Lol
Since I treat my vinyl records with ultrasonic washing and use the ORB DF-01 disc flattener and DS Audio Ionizer during playback, seldom do I get a pop from time to time. Often easy to fix afterwards. Sometimes you will get pressing faults, but you can return these faulty records. CDs are great for headphones and casual listening (while reading e.g.). Just my experience and personal preferences. 😉
I've been a Fremer fan for a long time. He's kind of like that champion fighter who doesn't know when to retire. With that said I share some of his feelings and there are a lot of channels I don't watch because they are empty suits to use a phrase. We now have freedom of choice which is great.
I subscribe to both Stereophile and The Absolute Sound and I was surprised when he recently jumped to TAS. Fremer continues to be full of energy in his pursuit of the absolute sound and his home is full of high priced gear and clean power. He’s a very good writer and does his homework. I at times find him abrasive in his interactions with others but, that’s Michael. He’s writing for an audience that has the financial resources to afford high end expensive gear. At least I can afford the subscription to TAS.
and, Fremer isn't an audio snob. Yes, he owns and reviews a lot of insanely high-end gear, but he's also reviewed affordable stuff and often reminisces fondly of his old Dual 1219 turntable.
@@TheAgeOfAnalog - yep, I remember him reviewing an affordable record cleaning machine on a table in his kitchen. No matter what price is for the gear he’s reviewing he always gives it his full attention👍👍
Fremer doesn’t always appear to have done his homework.
@@leftypitchforker6952 - any reviews of his that come to mind?
When he reviewed the Record Revirginizer, he used too much of it, but the FIRST instruction on the product tells you how much to use. Also, when he reviewed the iSonic CS 6.1-PRO "Ultrasonic" Record Cleaning Machine, he confused the transducers with the heaters in the unit. If you want other examples, you can probably find them yourself. @@VintageLuxmanStereoCollector
Having had a particularly rough day in my new job, many years ago I might add, my new boss gave me some sage advice which I’ve freely shared along the way. If you can’t take joke, you shouldn’t have joined the company 😄
Has it crossed your mind, he may not be referring to you?
I think Fremer has a point if you take into account a larger, current, societal change: the attacks and distrust of expertise. For many, the ability to discern fact from fiction has become problematic. Corporate media and our current political landscape have only exacerbated this problem. Fremer definitely knows what he is talking about. I've been reading his print work since the 1980's and have learned a lot about turntables, cartridges, setup, and the rest. And while I've never been well heeled enough to afford expensive gear, I have been able to apply what I have learned, not only from him, but many of those who wrote for Stereophile and the Absolute Sound, for example, and use that knowledge in my purchases. Fremer's "problems" are superficial. His personality can be acerbic, his videos can lack polish, and he tends to speak "unscripted" like anyone who has been speaking about a subject that they have directly participated in for close to half a century. To his credit he doesn't qualify his videos by stating that they are for "entertainment." And I'll take expertise over entertainment any day.
amen
“Acerbic” had to look that up. Well written. Thanks
Very well said.
Fremer has a point
Anybody with a pair of ears can have expertise. How hard it is to listening to music really...lol
Yes, the purpose of a lot of these videos is entertainment and not purely educational but a lot of people are looking online, especially CZcams, for good information about buying turntables, and I see a lot of channels recommending various hi-fi equipment and turntables that they have personally never used. If the videos are purely for entertainment, then the creators need to say in the video or be upfront that they have no personal experience with the gear they are discussing. I agree that Fremer could put more work into the quality of his videos, though, and a little modesty would go a long way. Ultimately, I feel like Fremer is in the right calling out channels for making videos, not doing the research and not correctly representing themselves.
I appreciate Michael and his point. Sadly, he is not wrong. I have watched quite a few of these 10 best lists comprised of products that are for the most part garbage. More about generating sales from the affiliated links to Amazon than true evaluation of the products merits and failings.
Now I agree, there is room for all. I especially love the content posted from young folks giving their take on equipment and music. Especially in the spaces of affordable gear, which the Audio elite often do not cover. I find a lot of these upstarts to be wonderful, with well thought out, informative, and fair comparisons of equipment based on their own in-home auditions. It is content that is of high value to me, and often much more relevant than a review of a $180K. piece of Audio Exotica.
My feeling is that Fremer is not speaking out on youtubers like you. There are indeed several "10 best turntables" or similar lists out there that are ridiculous and misleading, providing no context or insight as to the ranking.
My issue with MF is that he has become very elitist. His videos on the Munich High-End Show where he repeatedly calls all those 15-30k pricetags "reasonable"? Seriously?
I tuned Fremer out after the MOFI thing. He always claimed he could “hear digital.” Until he couldn’t.
I instantly tune out from a channel permanently when the channel bashes others in effort to bolster themselves. If I had the time an inclination, I could assemble a video of Fremer's "greatest misses". This includes the time he told me the rega carts were "fiddly", but in public he says they are not. He's often full of his own crap.
Since I no longer have a vested interest in the vinyl format, he's irrelevant to me. I cast my vote by not watching his videos.
Sorry, I believe you're misinterpreting his point, it's not about his ego, His issue is there is a fair amount of reviewers being spiffed for positive reviews. After 45 years I can tell you that Michael is intellectually honest guy & never takes gear from any manufacturer for a positive review. At the same time I've differed with things he's liked, of coarse room, set up & synergy can effect what people are actually hearing. I can say this, there is plenty of good smaller guys out there & I'm always learning something new & worthwhile. Unfortunately as with every profession there are a certain percentage that are less than ethical. And this is the issue at hand as a fair amount of people will spend their hard earned money based on the words of a reviewer, that's a
hugh responsability that any reviewer should take seriously, I know for a fact this has always been forefront in Michaels mind.
That takes balls to call out Michael Fremer...bold strategy cotton
He is no God I bet you have a Trump sign in front of your trailer lol
@@fj5144 I don't live in a trailer...in fact I live in a lovely Victorian home...and no signs in my front yard. Try again! Thanks for playing!
Nonsense! No it does not take “balls”. This is all contrived nonsense. But if that’s your thing. Maybe you would enjoy the WWE, or some other “sports entertainment” type of show? ✌️
@@amb3cog everyone is entitled to their own opinion...but if Fremer is wrong for "shaming' other reviewers, then isn't Dave wrong for doing the opposite? Think about it...
@@stephenstevens6573 I actually totally disagree with him on this. I feel that Fremer was talking more about these “tech” based channels (“tech” is often in the name. And some times it’s a store/dealer that does them too) that are obviously only about money. Making up top ten lists. Without actually trying the products.
It didn’t seem to me that he was talking about people giving their honest impressions of a product. Such as the videos on this channel. Or on channels like it either (Zero Fidelity, Audiophiliac, Nemo, Thomas, Erin’s AC, Jay, British Audiophile, etc) / (any independents really).
I mean he’s obviously he’s not talking about every channel but his own. He knows Steve, and Herb. Pretty sure he values their opinion. There is bad info given out on CZcams. I’ve seen it myself. Many times too unfortunately. But it’s up to the consumer to make their own informed choice everywhere nowadays. Not just with HiFi.
And people either need to learn how to navigate it, or go to a dealer. But it will cost more. This is just an extension of how our economy is now though unfortunately. Everything has changed, and will continue to change. So in that regard. I feel Fremer is tilting at windmills a bit. But I feel he’s well intentioned. As is Dave though to be fair to everyone here.
TL/DR I think Fremer is right, for the most part. But I don’t think he meant these types of channels. And Dave reacted to something that wasn’t even about him IMHO. ✌️
There is no such thing as an "expert". Once people think of themselves as an expert, they've stopped learning.
6:43 "Are you annoyed that a nobody like me has about the same number of subscribers as you?"
Michael got well roasted 😅
No but really, what I think he's riled up about is partially well founded.
I mean, the selfproclaimed experts spreading misinformation is really an issue in HiFi nowadays.
The abundance of misinformation has grown a lot in the past 10 years (while only 30, I've been into HiFi for over 15 years myself).
I made the mistake about 8 or 10 years ago of sending Michael an email praising his work but asking if he could refrain from bashing politicians on the Right. I love audio as much as anyone, spend a lot of my spare time and money on it as enjoyment, so the last thing I want to get involved with is political discussions in music or audio. A few good-hearted jokes are always welcomed from either side but his bitterness was seething a bit and instead of acting like the fine example of knowledge he devolved into a silly partisan hack in an email exchange that went on far too long. I still believe he is great at what he does, but that doesn't make him some sort of God except for in his own little world.
Some novices just getting into the trade decide to make some CZcams videos? Big deal. They will sink or swim because most audiophiles recognize a fraud. I am so glad I saved my nearly pristine record collection from the mid 70s to early nineties (when I was buying, some are much older) to enjoy now that I have the time and money to enjoy them again, so rants from a 'privileged' reviewer like Bremer roll off my back now.
Music is politics rock jazz folk punk rap hip hop. Except accordion music.
@@mazzysmusichey. Are you bashing my accordion playing. 😅
@@mazzysmusic easy what you say, those accordion players have been know to put the 'squeeze' on folks...
@ 2:41 - I wouldn't actually refer to that as a "rant". He speaks the truth.
Fremer is still upset Mike Esposito got the MoFi interview.
Well spoken… as soon as I start to see / hear elitist bullsh… I tune out.. and Fremer is full of it …all those experts were called out over the MOFI scandal anyways and show how full of crap they are ..
always trust your own ears but the formats that make you happy and just enjoy the music..
FREMER - Pay no attention to these know nothing You Tubers. Now here's 12 year old Malachi Lui with his review of the Rolling Stones reissues and later he'll talk about his new cartridge the Ortofon Quintet Black S.
Which he says as he's talked with and has thoroughly vetted Malachi.
The trouble with these old seasoned hifi buffs from years ago is they are not really talking to Mr average hifi enthusiasts & can go off track talking about price ranges out of the mr averages wage or baffling people with posh scientific comments that leave you bewildered. I personally am 66 years old & bought my first turntable & speakers at 17 years old so fairly knowledgeable & obviously built to what I have today based in reviews & taste in music style plus cost, I get turned off by hifi snobbishness & pointless high end hifi which appeals to a minority who don't work in a warehouse. Shop or on a building site. My recent system was based on what hifi suggestions youtube to me is just tops for nosing at un snobbish channels that don't think they are above other youtube channels. You do a fine job & your the kind of channel for hifi that appeals to me & multi millions of others instead of the few percent of know it all snobs with 7× 7 metre lounges on youtube.
👏
You offered a fair assessment of Mr Fremer and yourself! You strike me as someone who is accessible to hear opposing opinions! One this one, you win on points!
Fremer is one of the few I refer to as “analog retentive.”
Much as I like and respect Michael Fremer, I don't think he understands the online community space (or perhaps even the 21st century). It's not about "experts" standing up and telling us what's right and what's wrong. It's about more and more people being able to share their experiences and opinons, and about being able to take it all in and make up our own minds. And when that happens, we all benefit. I remember the old pre-internet days of "experts" ruling the roost through print publications, and lesser mortals having no say... We're in much better days now.
I wish I had mentioned “gatekeeper” in the video.
@@MODACHe wasn't talking about channels like yours. There are literally dozens of fake review channels on youtube. I guarantee that if you watch some reviews on the type of channels he's talking about, you'll change your position and agree with him.
If you’re correct, why is he or anyone wasting time worrying about that stuff. It’s an open platform where anyone can start a channel. Who cares?
@@MODACthis lies at the very heart of it
@@MODACWho cares? Well apparently, you don't care about the truth in any of this. But you do care about what people are saying. You have hundreds of people telling you, in a very respectful tone, that this was nothing more than a mistake.
I don't care what you think of Fremer. I'm not a fan myself, but I never accuse someone of something they didn't do, even if I don't like them. And if I do say something in error, I acknowledge it.
Now, for the real question. If this is an open forum and you don't care what people are saying, then where's our posts? I see quite a few missing, including mine. The only reason you delete a post is because you don't want anyone to read it.
Also, why can't we see yesterday's content? I believe it was a short, and not a full video. That's gone too, and I was one of the first people to comment on that one as well. If this isn't damage control, I don't know what is. Up until now, I believe most of us thought this was just a miscommunication, and you meant no harm to anyone. I know I did, but not anymore. Don't be surprised if you lose a few subscribers. You're going to be deleting a lot of posts.
Well, that so called Big Kahuna was scooped of one of the bigger stories in audio, MOFI admitting to using digital sources to make there Lp's by an owner of a record store and somewhere in MF's videos, he claimed that he could always or most of the time tell when an Lp was made from a digital source. Hell, a local audio dealer before this story had yet broken would say how the MOFI One Steps had a soft sound that reminded him of DSD recordings, him being quite familiar with different recording systems' sonic signatures. I also remember MF's kind of sour grapes response to not getting it first.
I have only been into vinyl for one year, and even in the first six months I was getting suspicious of the YT videos by kids trying to make money out of parrotting each other without any real experience of what they were talking about.
✨What kind of stereo did you have on the starship Enterprise?✨
Hahahaha! i had to think about this for a couple seconds. Spot on! Or should i say Spock on. 😂👍
You totally right there. And by the way, the gear he plays with is way out of most people and my budget
But he reviews and recommends a lot of lower prices, even entry-level gear. So, your comment is not fair.
@@koylesmasterpeice my impression of Fremer is that he tends to review gear that is quite expensive. I have not seen where he makes a concerted effort to REVIEW much in the way of entry-level gear. He will, it is true, often talk about gear that is entry-level, but his presentation is . . . well, a mere presentation: "Pro-ject has this new table that features such-and-such motor, platter, etc., etc." - but it ends there. He rarely opines or compares with other entry-level offerings from other companies. I do not mean this as a knock on Michael. I looked very hard at what he had to say about the particular 'table I purchased (and had he not liked it, there's no way I would have bought it) but I would hardly have considered my 'table "entry-level" (more like "mid-fi").
@@redstarwraith Most of what he wrote about in Stereophile was about high-end equipment, but he focused a lot more on affordable products on his website, Analog Planet. He was quick to recommend the newest generation Technics 1200 turntables when they were released when many other high-end reviewers were dismissing them as DJ decks. I bought a 1200gr because of what he had to say about the turntable line and I am incredibly pleased.
1. There is room for everyone on CZcams and TikTok, and so forth. All it takes a few minutes of scrolling around to see that there's all manner of direct there, and there's always an audience for it whatever it is. Everyone has a choice and what they want to watch.
2. The trend, unfortunately, in modern society, is to label anything that we don't understand or appreciate, because of a lack of knowledge base and education, as "elitist". I that is the case in many things, whether it is science and technology, the humanities, philosophy, audio, whatever. People without experience, education, and expertise instead of deepening their knowledge and trying to learn from others just Brand what they don't understand as elitist.
3. There is no substitute for true expertise.
The absolute worst part of the YT hobbyist scene is the beefs. Christ. Over in knitting, Angela and Diane are at loggerheads over real wools impact on the environment.
i love that you are invested in the CZcams knitting community.
what’s it called? StitchTube? NeedleTube. ScarfTube? gimme answers, Barry
Well, as a "fellow CZcamsr", I actually don't worry about the critics, even those that have been around for decades. My focus is on vintage gear, so perhaps that is a lesser scrutinized arena, however, I still try to be as accurate as possible with the information I relay and I mostly steer clear of trying to portray how something sounds (with the exception of speakers). In any case, the sea of CZcams is big enough for other audio minnows to swim. 🤣
While I’m not a fan of Micheal Fremer's delivery or his brashness-however, if you listen to his comment in its entirety and go beyond his satire, he has a very valid point. As an engineer, electronic engineering/physics professor, audio equipment designer and owner of an audio manufacturing company-I can tell you many of the statements made by youtubers are blatantly and egregiously false as to the reliability, technical and design aspects of equipment.
While CZcamsrs do not like to refer to themselves as “salespeople” or “marketeers” with many having over 100K subscribers and getting thousands of views per videos-indeed they are just that. But unlike traditional salespeople or advertisers, they have no formal controls or FCC oversight-so they are free to say what they want. Case in point a well known self-proclaimed audio jack-of-all-trades youtube reviewer with over 300K subscribers posted a video titled “the cost of cheap audio” where they, without stating actual facts, appear to condemn an entire section of the audio industry from a specific region of the world and from specific manufactures. This cannot be done in traditional advertising venues but allowed in this space. If you don’t believe that this type of personal bias content in this forum does not influence people’s purchasing decisions-respectfully you are sadly mistaken. This is the point, we believe M.K. was getting at.
i understand, but youtube and ebay is overrun with folks who are clueless and full of malarkey
Stereophile is a crock of shit also. So what some of these CZcamsrs may not have all the experience but they are just telling what their experience was or is with products and usually very honest in what they say. But these big time magazine channels are going to cater to their sponsors and lie like a yellow dog. In 1982 Polk SDA1’s got the speaker of the year award by stereophile being 18 and stupid I paid $1800 for a pair. Just to find out later they totally sucked for 1800 dollar speakers. Never trust the magazines.
Gatekeeping, really? Click-bait much? Imagine, writing about, speaking about and doing something pretty much your entire adult life of 70+ years, and getting called out on CZcams by someone who makes videos for a hobby. I'm a fan of your channel, and I've learned a few things, but I really don't think you are who Fremer "called out" in his most recent comment. If you took offense to that, maybe it is about you. Fremer isn't for everyone, but I've been following his work since the 70s and I've always found him to be intelligent, funny and extremely knowledgeable. Actually, I'm not sure everybody does win when all of the channels grow. There is an incredible amount of ill informed, misleading and flat out wrong information being parroted on CZcams and forums by so called "experts", that really doesn't help anyone but maybe the person making the content.
There is a degree of misinformation in all endeavors. Platforms like CZcams have given individuals like me an outlet to share our experiences without gatekeepers to hinder us. I praise MF in the video for his knowledge and expertise, but his griping reminds me of the “old man yells at cloud” meme. In the free market, the audience will determine who sticks around and who will fade away. Thanks for your comments.
He has a point…and Michael was buying up all those LPs when people were dumping them…And I like your channel..good stuff..and I don’t think Michael F is talking about your channel…A while back The guy from GR research called out reviewers about their lack of experience in the business…you might want to tap the brakes here and ease off..Michel Fremmer is a monster In the business ..I wouldn’t worry about his comments too much..
Lots of Gate keeping in the vinyl community for sure. Thanks for the video!
It would be helpful if you'd link to videos you're commenting on.
I see both sides. On one hand, there are some channels out there that, when you take a step back and think about it, are little more than an Amazon review. Others seem to have the deeper experience that most people would expect from someone presenting themselves as a qualified reviewer.
There's also something to be said about spending a lot of time with dedicated hi-fi gear and excellent recordings. Over time, hi-fi aficionados refine their taste. Sonic attributes that signify quality to a beginner become more contextual as the person gains experience.
On the other hand, most people have no interest in taking hi-fi as far as Fremer. They want a system for their living room, not a dedicated, acoustically treated listening room. They wouldn't dream of spending anywhere near what Fremer has on a turntable, and they don't want to get into the complexity of different cartridges for different genres and that kind of thing. Can Fremer really advise the average living room aficionado without trying to turn the living room into a dedicated listening room?
One difference is that Fremer came up doing reviews for magazines that were typically read by people who had the money for the kind of gear his magazines reviewed, as well as some sophistication in hi-fi. To stand a chance, he had to know his stuff. Today's CZcams reviewers are probably watched by people who wouldn't describe sonic characteristics on their own. They take the reviewers' word for it, and they probably don't grow past believing that certain pieces of equipment have a certain grade because that's what so-and-so reviewer said.
Fremer is a narcissist! He needs narcissist supply... his ego depends on it!
Well said, Let people decide for themselves who or what they watch, I do love most of Fremers videos and respect his opinions most of the time, anyway glad I discovered your channel I just subscribed
Cheers from Australia
I have not followed Fremer much, I know he complained about the In Groove channel uncovering the mofi debacle calling him names and such. He is arrogant and afraid that his voice is less relevant now in the digital age. I think he also mostly covers like super high end esoteric audio and doesn't have much to offer the common man that isn't spending or can afford 10k+ on stereo equipment.
Nice try at click bait haha. Something most dont know, Fremer is a good guy and has time for anyone who asks . Hes right about most CZcamsrs too who are obviously in it for what they can get and are annoyingly unprofessional whilst doing it. Why not just do your own thing your watchable but Framer is a professional.
I’m nobody in the hifi world and I said the same thing about CD's back in the eighties when I bought my first CD player. Which cost about $600 bucks. 😮 Record albums were scratchy and difficult to handle by comparison but the richness of sound could not be beat. I still have my albums, which I will occasionally play, but you cannot beat the convenience of a CD even if somewhat sterile.
The sound quality of Fremer’s videos is the definition of irony!
This!
It's a fact of life that all things must change no matter if we like it or not.
It all comes down to personal taste When talking about hifi. we all hear the Music differently.
Any hi-fi expert can only give you his opinion, but we need to hear it for ourselves.
I side with Mr Fremer because there is just too many instant self proclaimed hifi experts these days.
Everyone is expert on CZcams . I take it with a grain of salt about whatever they say.
My ears are my guide. And I have alot of knowledge in electronic as a technician to recognise good quality from bad. Some people can't understand that what sound good to someone won't sound good to someone else. If so, there would be only 1 brand of amplifier, speakers, only 1 media, digital or analogue. But the fact that there's so many different stuff is showing that many people like different things.
At the 2:55 mark, Fremer aims his complaint at "a lot of people on CZcams."
"A lot of people" is nebulous. It could mean the "majority." It could even mean the "minority." It could mean "too many." But "a lot of people" usually does not mean "everyone."
Yet right after Fremer's "a lot of people on CZcams" complaint, the speaker specifically defends himself, and shares his qualifications, as if he had been directly attacked by Fremer.
Was he?
Protect Michael at all costs! He is one of the only Audiophiles in the world with a full head of hair😂
I thought this was a great solution to your thesis: "...what they want is compelling content that will inform, entertain, and inspire that is authentic, consistent with a sense they are part of some kind of community". This was a great contrast, well written (yes, we like structured vids in 2023 lol), & subscribed!
Well said my man!!!
His knowledge is undeniable but his behavior is uncalled for and he does it all the time
Humble up Mr Fremmer
I bet he can't hear past 10khz if that. I wouldn't take any of his advise seriously that's for sure.
Spot on! Just like you, I had those dark decades and in the past 5 years came back to stereo. Fremer had nothing to do with any of this. He's an advocate for consumerism. We did this. We (working class stiffs) rediscovered our records and stereo systems of the 70's as we became nostalgic (older). No critic or hifi expert had anything to with this. It's very natural. For the "record", everything comes back.
Love your working class YT videos! Keep on Truckin.
facts upon FACTS
Mikey is old and grumpy; plenty of room for all, including Mikey
What Mr. Fremer is saying has nothing to do with you. Although you admit that you got into making videos because you thought as you self proclaim in this video “heck! I can do that too.” And here you are. But you don’t have any need to feel the target of what Mr. Fremer says. Mr. Fremer is not picking up a fight with you.
Also Mr. Fremer has stuck it out for 2 decades pointing to the right horizon for audiophiles not only in this country but also the world. Why do you have to feel Mr. Fremer is talking about you when he criticizes the actual, real yo-yo’s and clowns (too many of them actually on you tube) telling the world what are the best turntables or amplifiers. If you are not. And you know you are not, one of those clowns Mr. Fremer is talking about then don’t be offended. Because if you do that might point out to the fact that indeed you in fact believe you are. If you know yourself to be the real item then don’t assume he is talking to you. I in fact I am a subscriber to your Chanel. I listen to you. I follow you. Not for one second I thought of you when I heard Mr. Fremer come down on the veritable cast of clowns posing as experts on the subjects at hand. Neither should you. It hurts me you feel that way. And it also made me for a second consider if was looking at you within the right context. But I am giving you another chance because as humans we should always do that and a couple croutons not a salad makes. Also consider who has been steaming you up to this? Probably one of the clowns Mr. Fremer is alluding to?
I ave been observing Mr. Fremer for a long time. He is not only knowlesdgable, experienced and a humble man. Tons of people in this hobby are infinitely more arrogant and dismissive of fellow hobbyists than Mr. Fremer. I was a subscriber to Stereo Review when I was 11 yrs. Of age. I am now 68. I know hi-fi. I know good sound. And I know good people. Mr. Fremer might not be perfect because none of us are. But he is right to point out these clowns that at a minimum are confusing the newcomers by misleading them. And history by falsifying it. And destroying the truth by hiding the facts. Have a very splendid day sir. I will continue to be a subscriber for your chanel. Stop being so silly son.
Kids don't belong on someone else's lawn. And Howard Stern in '97 was a billion times better than Howard Stern in '23.
I believe Fremer is absolutely correct with his remarks! CZcams and the like has seemingly produced experts on just about about every subject including Hi-FI. I believe that most are in it for the money on CZcams. I am going to take his opinion 9 times out of 10, as he worked in the field and is/was a genuine professional in the field, not a person who read a few articles, has purchased Hi-Fi equipment etc., and all of sudden is an expert in the field. This is not to say that others are not knowledgeable, but we should give deference to those who have actually had professional experience in field. You do not become an expert in the field because you have a CZcams channel, it’s because you have a degree or have professionally worked in the field. That was his point, and it is a valid/argument point!
I do not have an electronics degree and only sold hifi for a couple of years 1988-1990. Platforms like CZcams have given individuals like me an outlet to share our experiences without gatekeepers to hinder us. I praised MF in the video for his knowledge and expertise, but his griping reminds me of the “old man yells at cloud” meme.
@@MODAC I do not agree with everything he says, especially if I know that the conversation strays into the direction of the “purist”. But I respect his experiences, knowledge, and I believe more times than not he will lead you in the direction of good music and good recordings. We need to try to understand the time that he grew up and worked in, which was an analog era. I am in my middle 50’s and love LP’s, listen to cd’s and stream as well. Streaming is definitely more convenient, but I personally, like many i suspect, get the sense of something missing in comparison to listening to LP’ & cd’s. When I stream, at times feel as though there is a laziness factor to it. Also, the artists get less of there due with streaming, and thankfully they are catching on and are now releasing their work on vinyl as well. Also, lately I have been thinking about how when we stream we never own the music. In the short term it is less expensive, but the companies are betting on the long term to make their money? Anyways, I digressed but there is a place for all three, but let us not forget the two channel system and the LP.
Michael knows what he is talking about. Just listen to him and learn. Subscribers doesn’t prove your knowledge. You actually are annoying. Your heading drew me to your channel because Michaels name was there. Good lure to get views
I agree with you completely! Many people think you need a PhD to give your opinion on the net and I think that is the wrong attitude. In every aspect of society we need divergence of opinions, new ideas, unorthodox procedures to expand our field of vision and question all received notions. If we never re-examine our long held beliefs, how can we grow and discover something new and different? Somebody has said `species that won't change will die off`. It is obvious the audio community venerate its traditions but if we don't want to go the way of the dinosaurs, we need fresh blood, new options and a greater diversity of opinion and content. The more people we get involved in the process, the more it will represent the whole of the audio community. Thanks for that great video!
Keep up the good work plucking chickens and making videos. I enjoy them, much more than Stereophile reviews. Even before the internet I would only look for information from Stereophile very sparingly, as I could not relate to most expensive products, and when I could they seemed to lead me to a dissatisfying purchase and listening experience…for items in my budget.
I do share his sentiment, but mine is focused on the automated voice over comparisons . If I hear a Computer voice and no human seen, I dislike and immediately hit the back button. I hear they were autocorrectors before their transition to CZcams, sad. They should go back to guessing the next word I am about to say and stay out of the audio business.
Sounds like jealousy to me, he’s very experienced there’s no doubt but he’s also stuck in the past when it comes to CZcams video production, like watching an old man in a dusty basement, his attitude won’t fly with everyone and he needs to realise that if he wants a bigger audience.
I never realised how much of a disrespectful guy he is until I watched his excel video.
Although Michael reviews many products I will never have the money to buy I still trust his opinion. Sometimes he can be long-winded, The man has many years of experience. I too would rather get information from someone who has more experience than say someone who is just getting into the hobby and giving their opinion on what is best.
Thanks for redirecting me to the better channel 👍
Any time!
I almost thought you were going to give him a timeout!🍼
As a kid, when I wanted good information, the best information about whatever subject, I went to the most experienced and educated source. That pursuit remains the same no matter if you are a budding scientist, or a budding chef. And regardless of production values, Clickbait titles, or CZcams graphics, Michael Fremer remains the undisputed authority on turntables cartridges and tone arms. You don’t like his presentation? Who cares. Your feathers are ruffled by his brutish behavior? Again who cares. But if you want to know about how every turntable or cartridge or tone arm sounds Produced in the last 40 years Michael Fremer has the answers. When you can write a turntable review or produce a video that is as exacting, as descriptive, and as fully informational as Michaels are, get back to me. Only Michael Trei is in the same league
I agree with you Ken, 100%. I spoke to Michael at the CAF last month, and we discussed the matter. I was just giving him a playful poking. Thanks for your comment.
Fremer wasn't the only one yelling into the woods from early eighties on about vinyls superiority, and has later been vindicated.
I still have every single vinyl I've owned from ca.1962. And never bought into CD's "Perfect Sound 4 Ever", as it clearly didn't sound "Perfect" AT ALL. It was like when SS edged out tube amplification on the same grounds of having better measurements. But look what happened to tubes! It had a revival before vinyl, having been "obsolete" years before these.
And now we see lots of ancient techniqs like idler drives, field coil speakers resurficing because as with tubes and vinyl it was done right the first time!
Wait till Fremer realizes there are even AI driven hifi channels.
I believe it is the misinformation to what he is getting at. You shouldn’t have taken it so personally. I have very much enjoyed your journey into the Linn LP12.
Pluckers have to stick together, and keep your needle in the groove. Enjoy your comments.
Fremer is simply protecting his territory and to some degree all of us who are being pulled in different directions by noobs who aren’t doing the actual work but for clicks and likes.
I think you’re misinformed.
The warning, Mr Fremer, was ranting about, was that people with hardly any experience and a limited exposure to many turntables were giving advice as if they did. That’s wrong isn’t it?
Yeah you know I've never had a problem with Michael framer, I think he's been a call to arms for vinyl playback and records in general. My one thing I like about him the most is the fact that he doesn't approach what he's talking about with the idea that you can only get good performance by spending thousands and thousands of dollars. There's plenty of articles that he's written and videos that he's done where he talks about truly liking a $400 turntable and a $200 phono stage, and to me that's a win in my book.
I truly loathe the individuals who make content and then sit back and say something along the lines like " well unless you spend thousands of dollars on a turntable, it's just going to suck". I personally think that's a shitty attitude and completely untrue regarding what I've heard over the years.
Sure spending tons of money does get you better sound but it doesn't necessarily get you better satisfaction
I have never been able to stand Fremer's personality.
I never got rid of my vinyl even though I was an early adopter of CD.
CD whilst convenient has never sounded as good as vinyl
You got it all wrong about Mr. Fremer. He's a Wonderful man that deeply cares about Vinyl. He is not Perfect but his intentions are good. He only tells it like it is. Stop wearing your feelings on your sleeve and move on.
If CZcams was shut down tomorrow I would go back to listening to music on my Hi-Fi🤣
I find Fremer irritating, vulgar and virtually unwatchable. No one likes a know it all. I’ve been involved in high end 2 channel since 1974 and still learn new things all the time.
I get what he was saying in that video clip, but where you are 100% correct is the way he went about taking, lets say, the few "bad eggs" in youtube hifi/audio community influencers and seemingly applied that to pretty much the entire youtube community as a whole, which was a bit elitist sounding.
There certainly are (I believe anyway) several influencers who have gotten ahead of themselves and are pushing anything that comes there way from companies they know will send them tons more product and most likely some "incentives" to curb their talking points on the products they "review," but by no means does that represent the community as a whole nor should he be treating it that way.
Besides, hes far less likely to be giving new up-and-coming companies the same fair shot, especially budget/value-minded, as he is more seasoned and boutique audiophile makers, which is where youtube reviewers really have a chance to shine for new generations by finding excellent high- value oriented gear that gets more people into the hobby. As you stated, more youtubers and people involved is good for EVERYONE in HiFi and keeps the market growing and competitive as well as gives more incentive to price more competitively which is key.
Btw, the shining moment of this entire video, other than your great point about more people involved in the community being better for everyone, was your ending comment about having to be going on your way to work at Purdue farms and how did he know?...
I died laughing 😂 that was set up just perfectly for you haha 🤣😂 gotta love it.
Keep on going with the good content, brother!👍🏻
I don't listen to anything Fremer says. Because I can't afford anything he reviews. I agree with Fremer on the "newbie hacks" they don't have the juice to give advice.
I especially love the "I'm downsizing my vinyl collection"..... yeah downsizing, after you've collected for two milk crates full.
Really? $500? Do you have a car / truck?
@@preservedmoose I don't speak jibberish.
I think Fremer comes across as a bit of a narcissist. I once watched him go into a reception of a hifi company in some video with a lady sitting on the other side of a window to which he said I’ll have fries and a big Mac. The lady wasn’t amused. I think that shows a lot of what he is about. He also attacks other hifi reviewers.
Well said!!!
Interestingly your channel has about the same number of subscribers as Tracking Angle despite your anonymity and his fame/notoriety. I respect his expertise gained thru years of equipment reviewing and have benefited from his recommendations in the past. He could use a stabilizer for his hand held videocam 😅.
You hit the nail on the head! I quit watching Michael because of his (superior) attitude. Good Job!
Exactly!!
I'm sorry I'm with Michael Fremer... some of these upstart so-called audio experts on CZcams are out in left field.... especially those channels he mentioned that talk about the x number of best turntables. You go to those channels, and all you see are cheap entry-level turntables, which are what I call "Frisbee Makers." My vinyl let alone brand new $30 records would never lay foot on one of those.What I tell my friends if you want to get into or back in to vinyl find a good vintage TT from the 70s and 80s....in many cases these can be had for the same price of many of these cheap entry level models! When set up correctly with a good cartridge, they will sound better and treat your records better than most of the so-called "10 Best Turntables"!
He is cool but he losses me with his wire talk lol😂😂
I have a record collection and play daily, when in my car or out of the home I can not even listen to digital, it sound like crap after hearing the records, My post office delivery girl told me 2-3 years ago she did not deliver records and has noticed in the last year lots of people are buying records , she sees them every day. Michael is correct Vinyl has magic! without digital you would all not be able to sell your DAC's LOL.
I really miss Art Dudley.
I just watched Fremer’s video that the clip you pulled was from. I have to say that I’m underwhelmed by the original video. His “review” is hardly that. He started with a preconceived conclusion, and showed his point. However, he admits at the end that he didn’t do a test with less vinyls on the spindle. Further, the portion of the video looking at the aluminum foil is horrendous. The camera hardly points at the aluminium foil “records” that he’s reviewing for the impact of cavitation. He does one “experiment” and makes a conclusion. This one “test” is hardly sufficient. He should try different numbers of records. Additionally, some of the spots he points out as “cavitation” were in fact aluminum foil scuffing from his mishandling the previous “platter”. When he tests the cavitation with the meter, he does so when the machine is pulsing, and not when it’s on without the pulsing. While I’m not expecting a scientific paper testing the machine, I do expect the “reviewer” to be more thorough than this. (Unrelated, Linus Tech Tips recently got called out for shoddy testing procedure for graphics cards, and what Fremer did here is similarly shoddy.)
The comment he makes about others posting videos shows that he’s out of touch with vlogging and how CZcams works. His own video setup is amateurish. He’s a smart guy with loads of information and experience, and instead of helping to build a community and make others better, he chose to shoot others down. While we all may not have his credentials in the audiophile and vinyl sphere, there are significant contributions by others in the community. There is no single right way here, however Fremer approaches it with a “higher than thou” attitude.
I’m with you on this video. There’s plenty of room on CZcams for varying degrees of expertise and content creators.
Simply said, I expect more from Fremer. Back to the chicken plucking plant…
I don’t follow Michael F. for one reason. Lack of humility
Now it all depends on where in the Financial World you are in. And as Ears get Older Good Enough will do . I have the same System I got while in the Military 1974-1996 . Pioneer pl-516 is Still the best Turntable I have Run .
Same here! I bought the majority of my time-tested gear back in the 80's at the BX.
I think you’re way off the mark here sir. I don’t think he was even talking about channels like yours at all. Do you have top ten turntable videos? I don’t think so. Are you paranoid? Maybe? Probably not, but maybe.🤷🏻♂️
There are a lot of channels on here that do this type of stuff, and he’s right. They make no sense at all, and there’s no meat behind their lists. It’s just them listing a bunch of gear that others have reviewed and liked. You do not do this. They do.
So why do you think he’s talking to you? I’m curious, for real. I’ve watched most of your videos, and I’m still watching more, because you are quite honest and upfront about everything. With no fluff.
Now I’m not naming names, but the guys he’s talking about are usually more tech channels (in fact that’s usually in the name of the channel). Than actual audio only channels. At least that’s been my experience anyway.
And even then, there are some other more HiFi centric channels that give bad advice/information to people. And despite people like myself pointing this out to them. They refuse to change, probably due to the enormity of their ego.
Again, not naming names. But those of us that know the truth and that are paying attention. We know. And that’s part of our new reality that we all have to face up to.
We are getting bad information handed to us all the time. And we need to be aware of this. And when people like myself call them out. We need to refrain from sticking up for them out of hand, unless we’re 100% sure of the facts.
But this is far from a HiFi only problem. I mean look at our political situation now. Where people believe the innocent are guilty, and the guilty innocent, due to this same issue. And we all need to acknowledge this also.
So that being said. I won’t even comment on your “out of touch”comments, nor the “get off my lawn” dig either. But suffice to say. I’m not on the same page as you are on this. And I feel that they could have, and probably should have been, left on the cutting room floor.
To be fair though. We’re all a little out of touch. At least those of us in a similar age group are. We’re not the youth of today. This is their time, not ours. But this is already well known, and doesn’t need to be pointed out IMHO.
And while I realize that a little controversy may be good for views. It’s not good for sustained longevity IMHO. At least not if other viewers are like myself anyway. Because you’ll not likely get me to bother clicking on anymore of these silly posts where you “call people out”.
I come here to watch videos about audio, not for drama. Jerry Springer just passed away recently unfortunately for his friends, family, and fans. And maybe it’s time we put that style of showmanship to rest also.
Especially in cases like this, where there’s really no meat on the bones of your complaints. And it all just seems way too much of a contrived controversy for my taste. That being said. I’ll be here for any, and all videos that are actually about audio. And I appreciate what you do. ✌️
What's more time consuming? Watching a video like this or a 72 line comment. Actually there is a great coincidence here. The comment was "72" lines, and "7:22" was the length of the video. I'm putting a buck or two on that number tomorrow on the daily lotto. But for now I need to watch one of those CZcams shorts.
Succinctly put, sir. Drama for clicks is unacceptable.
@@sidesup8286 No BS I was born in 1972 🤣🤣🤣
@@sidesup8286 Oh, and what does time consuming have to do with anything? 🤷♂️
* "You turn into one of those clock watching city fellers"
*Arthur Morgan RDR2
@amb. When someone does a long one I count the lines. Yours is not the longest. I know a guy years ago that wrote 2,864 letters to someone....To Bela Abzug. I recounted and your comment was 69 lines; not 72. Are you sure you weren't born in 1969? I wonder if I can get my $8 worth of lotter tickets refunded or changed. I could have bought a bottle of Wild Irish rose with that.
Well said, and I agree with almost everything you said except for the fact that your video quality could use some serious help too. It’s pretty bad, man.