The importance of TACTILE BASS in HOME THEATERS
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- čas přidán 13. 05. 2023
- #hometheater
Tactile bass is way under-appreciated and in this video I talk about why and what it takes to get it. Research has PROVEN that tactile bass changes the perceived level of bass and when a system has more of it, your enjoyment goes up to. Not only can you turn the bass down and still be happy with the tonal balance, but the visceral aspect is adding to your experience. Many people keep adding more and more subwoofers to increase tactile bass, but that is often a losing battle. Those subs are fighting a force they can't overcome and in this video I'll explain what that is and what to do about it. Fixing it is not simple, its invasive, but it probably would cost less than the dozen or so subwoofers you would need to equal this simple fix.
If you'd like to book a private acoustic consultation with Matt or interested in purchasing the best Home Theater equipment please send your request through our website: www.poesacoustics.com
We proudly carry Perlisten speakers , KEF, Q Acoustics, JVC and Sony projectors, Artnovion acoustic treatments, Trinnov, Denon, Marantz, Samsung and Sony TV's, Sonos. - Věda a technologie
Thanks for this incredibly useful video, makes total sense and I don’t think there has ever been anyone to talk about and explain this.
Thank you. I appreciate your support
Glad I came back to this video, my theater is in the basement, subs shake the entire house but not my seats
Your house weighs less than your foundation+earth.
My new fav home theatre channel, think your going to fly high here
I really appreciate that.
For once I'm happy I decided to keep the system in the living room. Sitting on a wooden floor over a basement means I can get tactile bass from four wall-mounted 10"s
good explanation Matt
Great video. I have been chasing this tactile feeling for a while but at the same time chasing lower RT60 times. This has moved me to remove my extra 3 subs and run a single subwoofer. Less tactile but less rattling of the house and much lower RT60 times. I'm in a rental so can only do so much in the space. This was also before I added 16 PVC DIY resonators to try and combat the 52hz trail I had. Makes me want to try the multiple subs again.
This explains why my floor-pointed SVS subs shake my room so much. I have a basement below it, so it's easy for them to shake the house.
Yes if you have your subwoofers on a wood floor attached to trusses it will easily shake. If you have concrete directly below it, it isn't.
@@PoesAcoustics yep, it's as you say: a wood floor on joists. Crazy! This was such a cool topic! You always have great ideas! How'd you figure this one out?
That sub in the thumbnail looks like 2 seas l26roys or ine and the acomponiying passive radiator! I rock these which is why i recognised!
When I finished my basement theater the first thing I was critical of was that there was zero tactile bass. I had to add Buttkickers to all the seats which brought it to an acceptable level. I wish I realized in advance that my concrete floor wasn't going to transmit bass and built a flooring system like yours on top. More great tips!
Thats exactly why I did this. I think more people have access to this solution than even realize. Most assume that their floor situation is fixed, but people redo their floors all the time. The cost isn't as bad as it seems and I've seen people spend far more money on fixes that aren't as effective.
Hey guys, what about a click and lock floor (LVP) that are laid on top of a concrete floor (usually with a plastic water barrier in betwern)? Would that help with tactile bass in a basement theatre, or are they too thin to count as decoupled from the slab?
Can you please add the links to the product you mentioned?
A discussion of SPL vs Particle Acceleration is a matter to consider here. A sealed room is a constrained space and therefore able to be used to have "visceral sensation".
I advise reading the white papers on how speaker design influences this and the relationship of both. Easy discussion can be found on the AVS thread as a start for lay people.
A question for you Poe:
Tactile mid-range is the hardest for me to get. A kick drum, a gunshot ... the sound of a mid-pitch contact that still carries a "sensation". Elements of the note may be bass but a substantial part is mid-range.
Finding the speaker to have that is my current challenge. M&K S150 offered close to what I wanted. I'm about to receive Ascendo 10" passive speakers... will see how they go and if not what I want I will get M&K S300 which will offer more of the S150 and a safe choice for me.
I have a large room - open plan living... yet sit at 2.7m - 3m. I have 2 enormously capable subs now yet the LCR array has been the challenge to find what I want.
What front speaker less than 500mm tall would you choose?
Hi Matt,
Awesome topic. Very helpful as I hadn’t thought about the movement only isolation.
Some points reminded me of my status.
I abandoned my basement home theatre build and kept my first floor bonus room (that’s 2nd floor for NA & 1st for the ready of the word) he he.
My friend an acoustic engineer that had a 150 person international acoustic design consulting company showed me how a concrete slab basement in Canada becomes a natural amplifier and they way they design isolation is to install a floating floor which is very expensive and one has to know how much weight is going to be in the room so the isolation dampers are specified according. His company has designed sound studios, concert halls etc.
This friend that showed me rather than use double doors create a vestal eg a lobby isolated between the theatre and the rest of the house that too has isolation doors. He showed me these doors from Germany that are $3k each.
However he showed my he had the perfect isolated home, a 7,500 log house on 40 acre plateau. Lol.
This is all very true, though I will say that a number of companies like Hushframe and Kinetics have taken the hard work out of the sound isolation for residential floating floors. They sell products with design guidelines that ensure the right degree of isolation.
And yeah, there is no better isolation than being in the middle of nowhere. That is why scientists build sensitive measurement devices into deep pits in the ground.
@@PoesAcoustics what about floating floors? Feel up to he challenge on bringing us some videos on that?
Hey Poes ... Ive gone through each and every comment searching if you have given any links to the products used. For the first timer its a little confusing. Can you confirm if this is the right order of your floor please ...
Floor ->Metal Truss -> 3/4" subfloor -> 2" high springs -> 2 layers of 3/4" sub floor.
And kindly add the links Poes... It helps a lot ..and thanks a tonn for a great video on the topic!! 😊
Been following audioholics and now you matt and taking all the accurate information i can get on the subject which i feel has been very accurate as ive built and changed my HT setup. I would like to know about how i would build that riser for my living room dedicated theater! If there's an article or direct information on building one, please feel free to share!
Unfortunately I don't have a ready resource for that. I have detailed design drawings and build instructions for them, but they come as part of a design package from PMI. I can't just give those out.
Excellent video, again. Concise and clear. Will you add the links to the products or materials mentioned? Thanks a bunch 👍
I added them to someone elses comment, but yes I should add them into the description.
Excellent video! I plann to add a low (about 4") tall riser to my HT. These will be decoupled wirh some compliant feet and have bass shakers attached. Should this riser be filled with absorbing materials or just be left empty?
@PoesAcoustic waiting for the hush frame decoupler link that you mentioned you'd in video. I already have a riser. Would love to try them out. Thx
the effect would be less pronounced if your floors were not extended all the way to the walls like would be the case with smaller platforms or raisers. it really needs to be a sealed membrane for have it moving. That's why some designs i came across call for rubber curtains/surrounds to cover the gap between the floating/suspended platform and inert floor.
I'm somehow not convinced that you need to move the floor to feel the (sub)bass. I used to work as a photographer and on concert venues in front of those W-bin subwoofers nothing is physically moving for sure, except air, and you certanly feel that sound.
Hey can you add the links in the description for the products you recommend please .... The hush frame and the other options you mentioned
Thanks Matt, although I do have a sprung/suspended timber joist floor it's supported centrally from bellow by a brick wall running directly under my MLP, which I'm guessing will negate much of it's spring so I'll definately be trying out your 2" sprung riser idea 🤟
Well we might be using the term sprung differently. If the floor is actually sprung, then the brick won't matter. But I assume what you mean is that there are trusses attached to this brick wall and the floor is attached to the trusses. There are no actual springs or rubber isolators between the floor and trusses, correct?
@@PoesAcoustics Yeh I think I got confused when at 4:01 you said something along the lines of "a wood floor that's not on concrete but kinda sprung on its own such as being on trusses" & I wrongly thought you used the term sprung for what we call suspended timber floors in the UK.
So yes you are correct in thinking there's no actual springs/rubber on my timber floor, it's just 9x2 inch timber joists spanning 4 metres from the outside/external load bearing walls, to the middle of the room where there is a central load bearing wall on the ground floor. I wouldn't expect much if any natural spring near any of the supporting walls, which is why I love your 2" sprung riser idea :)
@@northeastcorals you understood my correctly. Both uses of the term are correct. It’s just that we have a “kind of sprung” vs fully sprung scenario. A wooden floor over trusses is sprung but the attached mass is large because it’s all of the wood floor and trusses plus a portion of the house. With short circuits caused by things like the brick.
A true spring floor in the sound isolation sense uses actual decoupling springs and so eliminates those issues.
Even concrete spans over steel trusses can have a spring to them and can be called spring compared to solid concrete buried in the ground. But the stiffness and mass of that system is going to make it a lot less springy than what I was really going for.
Hopefully that makes sense.
@@PoesAcoustics Perfect sense thank you!
Individual chair decoupler system sounds nice
I think individual chair decoupling could be accomplished by simply applying sorbethane or similar feet to the chairs. However, I suspect nearfield subwoofers would be needed to make that work. By contrast a riser would allow subs to be in the correct place in the room. I'm not totally convinced nearfield is a good idea for sound, thought certainly is for energy transfer.
@Poes Acoustics thanks! Near field is what I'm going to try with some decoupling chair feet just like you said, luckily I have 8 other subs to hopefully smooth out response. We'll see, thanks for great info.
@@bingdong8571so have tried it yet? What’s the result?
interested in how this went as well@@bingdong8571
Thank you. Im exactly at that stage atm. my 3 seater in my dedicated room is standing on the concrete floor and i run 2x Perlisten D15s in the back corners 2x BW SW15 build in the baffle wall behind the screen. And i like the clean sound i have in the bottom end but im not satisfied with tactile effect that i have experienced elsewhere better with for ex. one 12” sub.
So i guess im pretty good on the equipment side of things then and moving the subs around in the room wont give me a more tactile experience.
Not really, tactile bass is a matter of simple physics. Transfer of energy to the vibration structure. You can't reduce the mass of the floor by moving the subs. Nearfield subs likely works simply because its increasing the amount of energy transfer directly to you. However its never going to be as effective as something like a floating floor.
@@PoesAcoustics I will have to try out your recommendation with something build that goes under the seating then. It really does make sense and i dont know why but im not really keen on the tactile tranducer approach but i could be missing out idk. Thank you for taking your time very much appreciated.
Very interesting! I'm in the construction phase but have very limited height room in my 2.3m ish tall room. Based on a concreate floor and wondering on any kind of option that is around an inch high to help with tactile bass? Perhaps a laminate wood effect tile floor on top of some thick spongy underlay? I'll try the springy sofas too Thanks
Sorry if i missed it , do you have a link to the hushframe, if i did a 2" riser how much is needed
Do you have any detail plans for a floating riser using the Hush frames? I can imagine its an outer 2x4 frame surrounding the seat outline, with 1x3s and plywood on top of the hush frames with 1/8" gap for movement. The question i have for the design is how many hush frames per sqft of plywood do you need? A simple X# of hush frames per linear row of seating would be a nice rule of thumb.
Maybe also throw some rockwool inside the frame for some absorption, as long as it does not obstruct the hush frame movement?
Great video. Are you advocating using HushFrames instead of Crowsons, Buttkickers, Hovereze and the like for tactile bass or do you have an opinion them as an alternate?
Well hushframe is a decoupling block I used to float my floor. Crowson is a tactile transducer.
I find subs give far more natural tactile bass. But if you want to be thrown around, nothing will beat a crowson.
Having experienced a Crowson and buttkicker, I think they have pros and cons. I don’t find them natural and find it hard to integrate them. They overload easily too and that can be a problem. You need to set their level low enough that movies won’t cause them to overload. They can also be noisy.
Crowsons seem to have more of an up and down motion. It’s more of a feeling like a linear actuator would cause. A buttkicker is more like the rumble of a subwoofer. It’s just visceral.
My opinion remains that I don’t love them and wouldn’t use them in my designs. But to each their own. If you want them, use them.
Sorbothane isolators can work well under the feet of chairs. Crowson tactile transducers sells them with appropriate durometer ratings for this purpose
If those are designed to isolate, wouldn't that cause the couch/chairs to move less?
Yup they work great. You can't use it in a floor isolator because its not UL certified for that purpose. Silicone has almost identical properties in these settings and is much cheaper, so I see that used more often instead.
I would be curious how a sorbothane isolator might perform, but I've never seen an approved device with test data before. There is no doubting its capabilities, but it's not used for a reason and I am not sure what that is. Does it not perform as well as other materials? Is it too expensive? Does it breakdown (I've had sorbothane pads disintegrate over time).
But yes, for feet under a couch, they are fine and work great.
They would but in this case the intended purpose is to work with the crowson actuator which is directly attached to the couch foot.
@@PoesAcoustics So what would you put under couch legs to add more tactile response?
@@commanderrussels2612 if it was just the couch legs, probably a rubber isolator of some kind. Sorbothane could work. Those isolators from Crowsom could be good.
My recommendation is the hushframe was based on isolating a platform. Not sure they make sense for just a couch.
Thanks for the video Matt. Our relatively new dedicated basement theater is unfortunately on concrete. Standard carpeting/carpet pad over it. I have 2 powerful low tuned 18" subs but I don't get as much of that
Unfortunately there is not. I think the cheapest solution would likely be to either build a small riser for all the chairs to sit on that is decoupled and add tactile transducers or simply add them directly tot he chairs. The cheapest solution is probably Crowson, Buttkicker, etc.
What is the resonant frequency of your flooring system? Single layer ply, double layer with damping compound?
.2hz is the natural frequency of the isolation, roughly speaking.
two layers of 3/4" subfloor with a damping layer is on top of the springs. fiberglass insulation between isolators in the airgap, which is 2". one layer of 3/4" subfloor below springs and on the trusses.
Great video i dont have a dedicated HT but running a 7.2.4 living room set up, looking at upgrading my 2 SVS SB3000 to either perlisten R210 or paradigm XR 13 not sure which on?
I've been hoping to be able to measure an XR13. In theory I would think the R210 would have similar to more displacement to the Paradigm. I would think the Perlisten is better, but...Paradigm has made some crazy good subwoofers in the past. Their best subwoofer is still one of the top champions for maximum sub-20hz output in subs we tested.
I know its a big cost, but I would stick to two subs. There are real advantages to two subwoofers over one.
@@PoesAcoustics thank you yes defnitly would be going with 2 R210
@@DTA_Cryptowhat’s wrong with the SB 3000?
Do you get blurred vision from certain frequencies/amplitude? I'd love to experience that floor, especially being used to big, low-tuned subs right on my basement floor. Fun vid Matt!
Well when I first setup the system I accidentally set the subwoofers about 20dB hot. The subs are so clean that the only obvious part about this was how loud the bass was. I knew it was wrong but left it that way for a good week before setting it up properly. With movies the vibrations were so intense that yeah, it blurred vision. I later changed it by fixing the setting that caused the inaccurate levels and got it to match a common preference curve, which had the bass about 10dB hot. A number of trained listeners (and myself) felt the bass was WAY too loud. I went down to 6dB and still felt the bass was hot. A lot of that came from the excessive energy transfer (and having now reviewed a lot of the literature on this, not shocking results.). I ended up finally reducing bass levels to just 3dB hot and that actually sounds "best" with a lot of music. Turning it up a bit for movies is still fun, must say.
As for experiencing it, you are welcome any time. A Florida vacation would be a good time for your family I am sure.
Have you ever experienced BOSS or HoverEze? Curious what you think
It sounded like you described a HoverEZ platform and BOSS setups. Have you experienced these DIY setups? If so, how does it compare?
I had to google those terms to figure out what you were referring to. So if the question is have I ever experienced a platform with subwoofers and tactile transducers attached to it, of course yes. That is why I recommended that as an idea. If the question is if I have experienced that specific implementation of the idea, no I haven't.
But it should work great. Adding a bass shaking device directly to the chairs while decoupling from the floor has to work. You are reducing the mass immensely. The issue would always be doing so without making problems in the sound department.
I am just now finishing a project that has a pair of 21" ported high excursion subwoofers in a riser. It's tuned to 15hz and couples to the enclosure.
I am a little doubtful if spring feet for chairs alone will help in tactile feel. Larger solid surface area like a large wooden floor is needed to vibrate. I mean chair alone don't have more surface area to vibrate. (Im just guessing... i could be wrong as well .😅)
How does this compare now to the RTJ subs bass? How would you describe the difference between the RBH 12 and JTR 18?
Oh the RTJ 18’s are better for sure. I mean, yes similar cone area. But the RTJ is a good 15mm more excursion and a larger enclosure.
But both are really good. The RBH has shockingly good bass for such an easy to hide design.
Matthew, if you have a "springy" wooden floor and put subwoofers directly onto it, what would the effect of using isolation feet on it be? Less tactile bass/room shake? Pros/cons?
Maybe, not sure. I suspect it would only reduce the transfer of higher bass energy, not much at low frequencies.
My subwoofers are mounted inside of a wall that is not attached to the floor at all. The subwoofer attachment points are composed of hushframe decouplers and isoclips. It's a lot of decoupling. Yet the floor shakes like crazy anyway. So if that is any indication, I think the decoupling feet wouldn't do a lot.
I was wondering this also
I have a very springy floor . Upstairs
I spent half a morning listening to deep bass tracks and demos with iso feet on vs off
It was close but in the end, 'we' decided it sounded better with the iso feet on .
Off felt kind of muffled for some reason
But barely noticeable
Please share the links for the spring system :)
Well...If you are in the United States, contact me. Thats the point.
www.hushframe.com/why-it-works?gad=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwsIejBhDOARIsANYqkD2H11vtOH8dTiyl8QgJ9sRjMPdkRXbKs20VZepi2iKbU_ZIpI95ky4aAsEzEALw_wcB
This is the product I used and prefer to design with.
kineticsnoise.com/home/rim
Here is the other product I mentioned.
For the frame you are talking about building for underneath seating, would sorbathane pucks/feet work? With enough of them like you said, to support the weight of people plus furniture.
I would think so. I haven't ever used sorbathane like that. I used to have those Audioquest hemispheres for a while. Outside of that Sorbathane falls apart too easily and is too expensive to use in actual sound isolation. I imagine it is a better than usual product for decoupling, but you couldn't use it anywhere it couldn't be replaced as needed. So I would say, try it, but keep an eye on it over time.
@@PoesAcoustics I am having trouble finding the product that was mentioned in the video, thought it was a good alternative
Interesting, so laminate floors are floating floors? What amount of "give" does the floor have to have? Like half inch of squishy underlay?
Well technically yes a laminate floor is a floating floor. I hope you didn't take that my floor is called floating because it has a vinyl laminate top layer. It's floating because the 1.5" of subfloor is floating on 2" of spring isolators.
As for how much, even 1/8" would be useful, 1/4" to 1/2" is ideal. More could be better, but is probably not needed.
Octane seats have a bass shaker insert that goes into your seat. Could this give a similar experience?
People ask about bass shakers a lot. Yes Octane has that and so do many other brands. I even own some Buttkickers that I don't currently use.
Basically, a tactile transducer replaces the woofer cone with a physical mass attached to a voice coil. Some use linear drives. These can drastically enhance the tactile feel but often to the point of feeling very artificial. Some love this, some hate it. I have never met a professional home theater designer who uses them or thinks positively of them. Which tells me something. I've also never been inclined to use them on a design myself, even though I own them and have used them.
So on one hand, they are a way to add a tactile effect. On the other hand, they can overdo it pretty easily and so most find it unnatural and prefer to rely on a resilient floor and subwoofers.
I think that if budget were of no concern and I had the time and space to play around with this, something like a Buttkicker used on every chair with dedicated discrete amplifiers and a flexible procoessor like my Trinnov, I could see adding them as an optional preset. I've found them to be distracting for music, but adding something for movies. As such, I would often prefer them off or turned way done.
Another problem I've had is that when they do get overdriven, they tend to be very noisy. This means they need to be kept within their linear range. In practice that often means a lot of them and good limiting.
I go to electronic festivals or clubs from time to time and I, at times, actually felt bass so hard in my chest that it was close to being uncomfortable.
But you wouldn't be able to put those PA horn subwoofers into your living room, I guess😂
It's really more about the ratio of subwoofer to room volume. You don't have to use those horns for the same effect in a smaller room. You could, but yeah, that would be hard to fit and a bit excessive. Their are smaller home audio subwoofer horns made by some DIY oriented companies that would give that, but 4-6 18" subs would probably give similar crazy results in a lot of smaller rooms.
Which sub do u recommend is the cheapest option that can produce infrasonic bass?? I know jtr subs are in that league which others
JTR for sure, one of the best options. The sealed reference subwoofers from Paradigm are actually quite capable, not cheap in the slightest. Perlisten too, again, not cheap. The Ascendo sealed subwoofers are decent for the money. Monoprice used to have THX rated Monolith sealed subwoofers that were good. They don't make them anymore I believe, so maybe not an option. Rhythmik subwoofesr are a good value and many of their higher displacement sealed options would be good for infrasonics. Their ported subs may also be good if tuned low enough. While there will always be an advantage to sealed subs for infrasonics (and I think is the better approach), a ported subwoofer that is tuned to 16hz (for example) will still have significant clean output down to 10-12hz. Because the ports are good for 9-12dB of additional output, its likely this deep ported design would have more absolute output at 12hz than a similar sealed design. The main concern I have is that the port is likely chuffing. In most of the subs I've tested of this design, the ports chuff.
Thank u sir love ur videos keep them coming. Own a svs pb13 ultra but dont know if it can produce the type of bass ur talking about.
I have concrete floor with dual 18inch ported subs. My recliners have been made using wooden frame and placed above concrete floor. I get really good tactile vibration in my recliners,starting from 85+db at mlp. How is that?at 100db at mlp it gas very high tactile feel.will i have any improvement if i build a small plywood riser?my subs are placed on concrete floor
Well likely you are getting very high energy transfer from the subs to the couch. You didn't state where the subwoofers are on proximity to the couch. if you are telling me that the subs are in the corners, or something like that, the couch in a normal position, and you get good tactile, then yes, a decoupled riser is going to be better yet. I am not suggesting that a concrete floor and big subs will give 0 tactile bass, only that you are working against inertia and the mass is just too great to overcome.
Well likely you are getting very high energy transfer from the subs to the couch. You didn't state where the subwoofers are on proximity to the couch. if you are telling me that the subs are in the corners, or something like that, the couch in a normal position, and you get good tactile, then yes, a decoupled riser is going to be better yet. I am not suggesting that a concrete floor and big subs will give 0 tactile bass, only that you are working against inertia and the mass is just too great to overcome.
@@PoesAcoustics the subwoofers are placed around 8-10 feet from mlp and are placed at 3/4 th of front walls. in my observation i only good tactile bass with my wooden framed recliners, whereas metal or plastic seats have very less impact.
i do have a riser with metal cinema chairs for the second row. on top of riser i get good impact even with metal cinema chairs.
How do u know ur subs can produce infrasonic bass??
Is that a general question or specific to my subs?
It's often hard to know amongst commercial offerings because many companies protect their subs from overloading with highpass filters or aggressive limiters.
On the subject of decoupling….. I decoupled my whole house from the earth for MAXimum shaking 👍
Thats a good idea. You joke, but thats what you do with earthquake resistant towers. The whole tower sits on springs with a gyrcscope to keep it stable.
It’s all about that bass
well tactile treble just sounds irritating.
This rings so true for me right now
We just went from a brick/concrete suburban home to our new timber/ plywood house
Just finished building the media room upstairs
7.2.4
Dual pb16 ultras
Room measures quite well upto 80hz then goes ugly
But man. The whole room shakes like an earthquake! Lol
I love it ..
Wife is worried the house will fall apart lol 😂
Even the walls vibrate. . But i did have to repair the ceiling gyprock that came lose lol worth it though
hah well....gypsum wallboards shouldn't be shaking loose but good that its meeting your expectations. While I've heard stories of cracked walls and foundations, I don't think that is all that common. At the end of the day, these systems still aren't producing the degree of shaking and pressure that even a typical earthmover outside would. Houses are designed to sway in the wind, shake from mild earthquakes and man made vibrations, so usually HT's, even really extreme ones, don't do any harm. But you also aren't the first to share such anecdotes.
If it keeps happening you may need to coat your walls in a flexible material.
@@PoesAcoustics No the walls are ok its the gyprock on the ceiling that cracked
In Australia they nail the sheeting instead of screws so the vibration caused the sheeting to drop of the nails causing it to crack
The room really does shake though
Not complaining at all. Its fantastic!
@@isaaccraig3666 oh wow. Maybe secure it with screws?
@@PoesAcoustics yeh i did
Actually glued it back onto the joist using construction glue
Used the hangman method to prop the sheeting back up . Then screwed, plastered and paint
Work never ends with these older houses lol
@@PoesAcoustics But i am planning on framing both side walls since theyre so wide anyway
So basically there will be a wall within a wall with insulation in between.
Should help with the noise floor and hopefully accoustics also