'The Evolution of Confusion' by Dan Dennett, AAI 2009
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- čas přidán 29. 10. 2009
- Dan Dennett talks about purposely-confusing theology and how it's used. He also describes his new project interviewing clergyman who secretly don't believe anymore, and introduces a new term: "Deepity."
Dan Dennett is the author of many excellent books, including "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" and "Darwin's Dangerous Idea". He is also featured in the video "The Four Horsemen" along with Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens.
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Produced by The Richard Dawkins Foundation and R. Elisabeth Cornwell
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This has to be one of the gteatest talks on the subject that I have _EVER_ heard.Dan is just *_brilliant._*
I had the chance to see this live and talk to Dr. Dennett afterwards. An amazing human being.
This is a commentary on how ignorant you are I’m afraid. He simply makes things up that aren’t supported by science.
I agree and I really enjoyed it, especially the bit about theologians being spin doctors.
This guy is amazing. I hadn't heard of him before 2 weeks ago, so I have been binging and I think he is amazing. He speaks so peacefully and tries not to blatantly insult groups, but still puts pressure on his logic.
too bad he stutters like mad in this speach though
***** Speaking in front of people who have high expectations is hard, I don't fault him for stuttering. He was probably a little nervous.
DoctorShuckle understandable of course, it just bugs me a little that if it was being nervous that he didn't get any more comfortable speaking towards the end. still a great clip though, no doubt. public speaking issues dosn't take away from the substance of the talk.
+DoctorShuckle "Binging"? Really? :D
@AllSeeingEye ofGod Are you in denial?
I love that Dan describes perfectly that “woo woo” kind of god describing language Jordan Peterson uses. Dan is fantastic!!
What exactly is "woo woo" like about peterson?
Aren't we LUCKY to have this?! :)
Incredible, I could listen to men like Dan Dennett and Richard Dawkins all day. Much more informative and anecdotal than any sermon I've ever had the displeasure of sitting through.
Truly outstanding lecture. Daniel Dennet, in 10 minutes, can clarify thoughts I've been struggling with for a lifetime.
Go to school. University / science teaches one how to avoid bias and fallacy.
I'm so grateful for such enlightened and peaceful demonstrations of inquiry and thought!! Love this!! This lecture Connects with Andy Thompson's lecture, and I learnt so much!! What is sad is that I'm writing this 5 or almost 5 years after this was published and I still don't see many people aware of this, but perhaps there has been change, I just haven't been able to measure it myself.
Dan Dennett talks about purposely-confusing theology and how it's used. He also describes his new project interviewing clergyman who secretly don't believe anymore, and introduces a new term: "Deepity.”
unrandomized sample of 6, lol
epic fail Dr. Dennett if you want to promote scientific principles.
This is pure self assuring advertisment, showing off some deserters in your propaganda circus.
Propaganda Circus? You're on about the church right Roland Kofler ?
Pardon, Josh Mint I am not native US-American or even English. What does that mean: You're on about the church?
Roland Kofler I refer to you're comment "showing off some deserters in your propaganda circus." I assumed the "Deserters" here are clergymen who no-longer believe in a divine being, and am merely trying to ascertain who you are referring to with "propaganda circus".
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
-Isaac Asimov
I just love seeing these two of my heros together. They are SO inspiring. People like-minded to these, which I know there are many (including some of those who have watched this) make for me, life worth living. For scular freedom!
33:35 - I just love that look on his face, that traitor of pensive thoughts, that lets you just know that he was imagining how the song "You won't find love in a dictionary" would go xD
" and if you cannot be an athlete , you can always be an athletic supporter ...< wide eyed pause> - Ridell High Principal Greta McGee , Grease 1978
for years I have been trying to come up with a name for something that 'acquires a sense of deepness because it contains a statement that is counter intuitive'
ummm.. b.s.?
jobi ikmaal
That is ambiguous, having so many potential meanings as to not accurately communicate the intent of the speaker. I believe he is referring to use of the word 'deepity' in the lecture.
Deepity is not something that 'acquires a sense of deepness because it contains a statement that is counter intuitive'. It's something that has two meanings, one true but trivial, another false but deep. Example: 'this check that bill gates gave me for 5.000.000.000 is just a piece of paper with some ink on it'. It's true as in materially, checks are made of no more than paper and ink, wich everybody knows and is not very relevant. But it's NOT in a broad sense just ANY piece of paper. It's a very special and unique piece of paper that can get you a lot of money and, maybe, change your whole lifestyle. I chose a prosaic example, but you get my meaning. Another example might be 'love is only a chemical state in your brain', 'human beings are just animals', etc.
I feel like this speech was written about Jordan Peterson, even though it was given well before he came into the public spotlight.
Nine-year-old parishioner: "Why do they say Amen instead of Awomen after singing or praying in church?"
Minister: "Well, uh, I suppose uh,...that uh...men, uh, had a more prominent role in church matters, uh... and,.."
Nine-year-old parishioner: "Um, it's just a joke Reverend...Because they sing hymns not hers!"
(Feigned laughter)
LOL
@BTIsaac So... humour is a thing you don't understand either?
Amen most likely comes from the old Egyptian god Amun Ra. The Amun has been adulterated over time into 'Amen', which would after all make sense as the prayer should be, 'yours is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever and ever, "Amun Ra"... 'Amen' then becomes a god rather than an odd word that nobody understands.
Interesting talk. As a theist these type of talks do disturb me, but I find them helpful in de-crusting the ideas/faith I have to shed things like a 'god of the gaps', myths, UME, etc. I did attend catholic seminary and though I did disagree with a lot of what was said here about them; it was an interesting way of reviewing what I experienced there. I did not get ordained but I do still have a belief in God. It is too bad that through the undertones of his language, and the comments he makes
hopfuly we all think these things, very few can articulate them in such a clear and concise manner. slowly but surely im getting dumber without being mentaly engadged,stimulated. I thank you for posting this video. Dan Dennett is my hero.
"God is so great that the greatness precludes existance" XD that is funniest theologian quote I've ever seen.
siprus yes since 'greatness' is a comparison...which implies the existence of itself and other things compared to.......
i know that god does not exist because he told me so himself.
I HAD THAT TOO! I HAD THAT TOO! I once met a terribly old man at a parking lot at the border where I was hitchhiking. He was incredibly smelly and looked like He was 8000 years old! well... ...maybe a little younger, anyways I already thought I recognised the geezer and yes! He told me He was God!
A suivre.
Whoa! That is a deepity! Lol
Jobi ikmaal, I told you that in confidence
Imagine truly recieving that message
Have someone help you. My best friend has difficulty understanding lectures like this so whenever he gets confused we pause the video and talk about what's confusing. Usually this clears stuff up, and it always leads to good discussion, which reinforces what you just listened to.
What a fascinating presentation. I am always extremely interested in the stories of people who lose belief, as for me, I have never been religious, I don't think I went to church once, so when I learnt about what people believed I was intrigued from the beginning.
Darwin too was tormented by the effect of his work on his church-going wife.
Waldvogel45 your point being...?
Not near as much internal strife as Newton .
Not just his wife. When he went into his quest for understanding by taking up the offer to sail on the Beagle, he first made sure it would not be an impediment to the career he'd decided on, which was to be a clergyman. And although he chose a different career eventually, he never considered himself an atheist.
The real Golden Rule:
Do unto Yourself as you would have done unto Others.
Just one word - loved it! Well, two words, may be.
what a sweet man. I so enjoy Dan's careful and compassionate thinking on these issues.
Good stuff.
It's interesting why Dennett says they aren't good thinkers, when they obviously are good enough at it to go from theist to atheist?! Also they had read The God Delusion and God Is Not Great as theists. I only read them after I realized my atheism, I wish I could have felt what they did being theists reading those books. How were they even introduced to those books?
Had me scratching my head, they're probably not as smart as Coyne but I couldn't help but wonder what it was he saw that made him feel the need to state that they weren't very good thinkers.
Brilliant as usual. Thanks.
@quaternio That is great news! I'm very happy to hear this. I hope all goes very well for you!
I'd like to see Dan do a lecture on who's naughty and who's nice.
You have to sit on his lap , though 🤣
I had no idea Darwin had been Reincarnated! haha
dude is efin Brilliant
It is just about accuracy in critical thing, and accuracy in use of language. As I understood it,
Just before coming out as an atheist, I was a Church youth leader. Reasons, similar to the explanation here.
for those Christians who assert that you can't be moral and good without God, this is a good, caring and moral man, and he is the thing you fear. An atheist.
@BTIsaac You should.
Someone like this undercuts a lot of the claims about atheists.
@BTIsaac Well sorry, but if you are a god believer, you really have nowhere to turn.
Reality is your enemy.
As is rationality, and investigation.
@BTIsaac I'm sorry. Which part was too complex for you?
@BTIsaac Nice assertions. Just like the religious. All talk, no substance.
Go ahead, try and back any of it.
@BTIsaac *"Back what? What are the assertions i made? Asode from the fact that you're not saying anything here."*
*"You're just regurgitating empty rethoric from r/atheism (or video titles from Aron Ra's channel), that was meant to make you feel smart without any actual merit of your own.
Also, I'm willing to bet you don't understand a single word Dennet is saying. You just like hiding behind someone who's much smarter than you are."*
It would be interesting to research ways to cure people from the god-delusion and other religions
This is a great conference-video.
He's so patient, humbly provocative jet cleary speaking, ironic and thoughtful jus as in his books he almost touches me...
I would like to thank Dan Dennett. A debate between Dan Dennett & Robert Wright, broke the spell for me. For many years I clung to a view that there was the possibility of something like a Spinoza god. That was what Robert Wright was defending back in those days. Then Dan Dennett said the words so open, honest & clear that it could not be refuted. If it doesn't look like god or act like god, why call it god? In that moment I realized I was not defending the possible but the lack of any evidence.
46:50 "God is so great that the greatness precludes existence." -a theologian?
Wait, isn't that actually a "proof" of atheism? Not a sound one, I'll happily admit (hence the quotation marks), but the person who said this is ACCIDENTALLY playing for the other team. O_o
I like the idea that a handheld goddamn computer doesn't impress you the way a big orderly pile of rocks does. I guess you think that if we travelled back in time ancient Egyptians would be all "A device that can perform mathematical operations in an instant? Pff, that's nothing. Look at this big pile of bricks we made!"
I had a friend some decades past who was a professional theologian. We spoke at length about his stances, my stances, the similarities and the differences. We got along famously and I saw him as a valuable confidant and friend. Until one day.... while attending one of his lectures to a local audience he spoke about the "job" of people like him is to provide a bull work against the "scourge of modern atheism and godlessness." I was flabbergasted! This man knew I am a non-believer and that I was in the audience! Some days later we met for dinner and I asked him if that comment was aimed at me. "No! It is a simple technique to stir the pot in a congregation." I said, " wow, how that cheapens you! It calls into question the very worth of of your philosophy." It was then I said the most unfortunate thing that proved the death knell for our friendship. "Your life has been wasted on this pursuit of god!" I apologized, but that was the last time we spoke. That was approximately 30 years ago. Today that old friend is a preacher who spends an inordinate time speaking about his bull work, whereas I think all of theology is a waste of time and effort. I guess he was right about those battle lines.
This lecture is awesome.
...Deepity Chopra. hehe.
Absolutely great video! Very informing!
Thank you!
How can anyone call this guy”militant” he’s direct but, very soft spoken and respectful over all
Yeah .
Dennett and Dawkins are good guys .
They are not jerks like Madalyn Murray O'Hair and Chistopher Hitchens .
Especially Madalyn !
this struck way to close to home. i lost my faith in god in seminary and dropped out before being ordained. my mentor in the church confided he had difficulties with many of the same facts, but that he simply still believed something had to be greater. big issues we talked about were how long after Christ's supposed death the book was compiled, (roughly 5 generations later) and the lack of any reference to Christ in the histories written by historians of his age and time.
I really like Dan Dennett. He's incredibly smart (obviously) and extremely likable. I suppose another reason why I really like him is because he has the sort of gentle soul that reminds me of the U.S. History teacher I had my Junior year in high school. The similarities are striking.
amazing upload, thank you
I keep hearing the same argument: "You must think the universe came from nothing" ... or something in that effect.
Science has been able to explain so many things in life that for many people the only possible way to argument and keep believing in their religion is to take the path of ignorance.
--> the exact conditions of our universe's first appearence is not yet fully understood so after all else has failed you use this blind spot in our knowledge as the final resting place of your creator.
I just repeat what I have heard/learned on these youtube videos.
Makes sense to me.
Fantastic, so glad I saw this.
Myself and 65 others just wrote a book. A library of books, if you will. It is about me and all my teachings. It also contains all I know about the world that myself and the 65 others can perceive of the world at this moment.
We buried it. In North Dakota. I'm going into stasis for 1700 years. I can't wait to get my ass kicked when I wake up, come back, and claim that not only do I know where this book came from, but it is actually about me being the one true son of god.
Should be a hoot!
When Dawkins had a conversation with Weignberg he discussed the ID theory and said it comes down to God, multiverse, and chance. Weignberg did say that the given number for (I forget the constant now), appeared so limited that it did disturb him and said that if at a later date it was found that this number was indeed 1 out of imaginable odds that he might have to re-consider the first two options. Dawkins immediately pipes up 'then the answer would be the multiverse of course'. He may have
superb delivery sir.
Thank you very much, very interesting lecture ( Reverse Engineering Religion). You're just brilliant.
Great to hear Dan Dennett speaking, partly because I tried to read one of his books recently and, well, I found it hard to read (my problem, I know).
Peace.
Fantastic insights.
Well, I have spent an hour watching this and pondering what Dr. Dan has said. I believe I will go and pray now.
@CartesianTheist
Philosophy doesn't fly you into buildings.
put another way, i for one can appreciate your recognition that it's important to consider the thoughts and feelings of others, beyond a blanket disdain for what one might see as dogmatic/ignorant/misguided/etc. behavior...
the four horsemen
yay!!!!
Thanks again BB. Nice to talk. Fortunately my son escaped the stonings, & my daughter narrowly missed being sold into slavery, though I could have certainly used the money:) Yes we've come a long way in a few thousand years & learned a lot. The last frontier conquer is to be able to have polite disagreements with each other, and then live together in peace. I respect the new athiests,I just think they are wrong.You think I'm wrong too.I'm cool with that.I just want to be represented accurately.
listening to dan Dennet will make you at least 20% more intelligent.
Yes, I think that understanding it is important to understanding how we reach knowledge of our world, and how we can feel ecstasy in mundane activities.
Engaging in "spiritual" activities has always been shown to have a positive effect on people, socially, psychologically and physiologically.
I think it's only the power of self-suggestion and meditation combined, but it needs to be studied in order to discover if they're doing something which we as non-believers could do to improve our lives.
Dan Dennet lays the smack down on String Theory!
YES!!!
My reason for accepting that natural forces are responsible for the world we see today is a college education in science. Science is the best tool ever developed to discover how the mechanisms of the universe work. During that education I learned those forces, those processes, tested them and understood the outcomes. Many independent sources of solid verifiable data converge to a comprehensive understanding of natural processes, one of those natural processes is called evolution.
"Oh, no - much, much larger," his friend replied.
"How much larger? Ten times the size?" In this way, the frog went on calculating. But what is the possibility of ever understanding the vastness of the great ocean in this way? Our faculties, our experience, and our powers of speculation are always limited. The speculations of the scientists only give rise to such frog philosophy.
i hear ya. the first time i took a ~philosophy~spectra~ questionnaire i was considered approx. '68% Spinoza' - had never heard of him, but he was damn sharp for his time, a good troublemaker.
Thanks for your advice on impulsiveness,Adam. It's good advice no matter what we believe. Dan offered no scientific evidence in this video.His talk was from his own field of philosophy.Therefore I expected to see him build a cogent philosophical rationale for his atheistic position.I expected him to challenge the core of my beliefs as a Christian. It didn't happen.He started with atheist clergy(yeah and..), then (rightly) ridiculed junk theology, then rambled on about deepities & UMEs.It was sad
wow that was awesome i watched that whole thing. smart guy.
Without a doubt my favourite of the Four Horsemen.
There actually are preachers that are proclaimed atheists here in the Netherlands. I am pretty sure most learned catholics here do not have a lot of faith in a deity and other issues like the trinity. The ones I knew of from my family are no longer in the church, one was professor in classical philosophy in university, one was a missionary. I do not think they believe in a God, but I do not really know them personally because of the generation gap. What Dan says about the seminary is quite to the point, when I was about 16 I was one of the few not believing in heaven or afterlife, but I got the impression the teachers (priests because the school turned from pre seminar to secondary education.) were on my side more than my classmates.
je gelooft niet vanzelf in een leven na de dood. Maar god gebruikt mensen om hem bekend te maken aan anderen die nergens vanaf weten. " een afterlife" is irrelevant ten opzichte van een relatie met god.
I love it, Dan Dennett exposing the whiny, smarmyalade of NPR theology. Thank you again Mr. Dennett.
@AllSeeingEye ofGod site your sources of proven wrong or you are lying.
@AllSeeingEye ofGod I see idiot design here we go puking up 15 year old lies. Give It Up Kitzmiller vs Dover Pennsylvania. A liar than and a liar now. All of the other con artist slunk away leaving Behe holding the bag looking like a complete moron. Can't believe you guys are still sharting this feces out.
@AllSeeingEye ofGod umm no. I'm getting the sense that you're one of those morons that signed the petition demanding Netflix NOT show that documentary. Good Omens. Oh yeah. I said documentary alright. Grow up and grow a brain
Very insightful indeed
Now I'm convinced to read some of his books.
Dan is such a peculiar man. This was quite enlightening. :)
Truth sets you free.
Only your Maker is able to reprogram you again because there is no one else who can.
I was using medicine as a metaphor for theology.I guess you needed to see the earlier comment I was responding to, (or even open up the whole thread). My challenger was asking me to tell him what is "true Christianity" (which is difficult in 500 characters). Dan Dennett was quoting the theological equivalents of Homeopaths.If he has an issue with theology, then he needs to engage the theological equivalents of Medicos.The "theologians" he was demolishing were easy targets.
thanks to make me think about evolution now i know where i came form thank you very much i knew this wasn't a casualty
This video needs more views
One can have consciousness without understanding what one is doing.
Amazing
My favourite: 29:45 The canon of good theological spin, no3: "it should relieve skepticism without arousing curiosity."
Daniel "Santa Darwin Claus" Dennett
Like this guy a lot, seriously. One of my favorite public intellectuals. Philosophers are very needed. To think otherwise is to think we have everything figured out. Any rational person knows this isn't the case. We're just scratching the surface.
Epic!
I really love about him is that he treats these people with love and charity. These are men and women who have been duped into wasting their lives in the service of a totally ridiculous belief system and now realize it. They are objects of sympathy, not denigration.
@dashrirprock did you turn off the video right after and miss the whole explanation of use/mention errors?
I have to say, growing up with a grandfather who was a preacher, there were Many times when the life of a preacher looked like just the ticket, even though I found myself an agnostic atheist fairly early in life. I just couldn't quite get over the idea that I"d be playing the "con" man. This is true, even though I'm now certain that there have been many others in that spot, among them quite probably my grandfather.
Raised in a evangelical home I was sceptical of the motivation of people pleading for forgiveness. After seeing a black man for the first time, I asked my father what had that person done that was so evil as to turn his skin so dark.
Now I understand melatonin.
So my wondering, as a child, building the foundation for adulthood , I would not want to foist on anyone.
A famous German philosopher once claimed self dilution is the bridge over the chasm of life. I follow the other philosophers who claim life is like a train rushing for the bottom of the hill and the bridge at the end of the line is out.
That’s why God gave humans poppies.
Science adjusts it's beliefs based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
-Tim Minchin "Storm"
This guy can grab my attention so well does anyone have lectures of him you would recommend ?
jaap jappie he's all over but I think HIS logic fails...
Subscribe to the Richard Dawkins Foundation.Lots of interesting lectures on there.Also recommends good books.
"The understanding comes later in the analysis - not before the process of creation." I think it is more like, "the understanding that comes later in the analysis leads to that being held before the process of creation."
If it is directed, it has a Director / Maker. Chemical reactions have to be directed before they ever become working mechanisms. The function alone of the chemicals proves there is a Maker that made them so they would work when directed.
You can hear Hitchen's giggle throughout this video. 45:53 Especially.
@pointyhead1: Where did you get the Dawkins quote from?
That wonderful novel by Elizabeth Gaskell. North and South. is precisely this situation. The Reverend realises he no longer believes and gives up his post in the Church
Search the online free book for Jean Meslier (wikipedia)
Jean Meslier (15 June 1664[1] - 17 June 1729) was a French Catholic priest who was discovered, upon his death, to have written a book-length philosophical essay promoting atheism. Described by the author as his "testament" to his parishioners, the text denounces all religion.
« supposed to be a smooth transition »
If we apply the technical definitions of "micro-" and "macro-evolution", then we find that a macro-evolutionary transition requires less genetic change than micro-evolutionary adaptation and drift may provide. Take the dog: most dogs are technically the same species - yet there is a wild variety of related dogs which look almost nothing like wolves, and would, if they weren't able to interbreed, have long ago been classified as separate species.
If the chemicals always fall in place the same, they would all be the same kind.
It is the different combinations that give different characteristics and different combinations are not enough, they have to be programmed to do whatever they do.
It takes a lot of wisdom and understanding to program a life form. In the real world, when you have no goals or direction, you will never arrive at anything.
You are the one trying to comfort yourself while being in opposition to observable facts.
reading one of those books could also be the very first time that an individual has ever seen one, several or all of the arguments within.
@jramza, can you give us a specific example. I have no idea what you're referring to.
I recall a movie with Martin Sheen years ago called “ The Catholic”.
I really was impressed but not sure how much traction it received.
Ostensibly about not stopping the Latin Mass at a remote Abbey, Sheen is sent to get this right. Finds the Abbott lost his faith.
Hit me between the eyes!