Should This ‘Dangerous’ Tech Be Banned? + Cheating Pros Caught Out - The Wild Ones Podcast Ep.38
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- This week we're joined by ultra-endurance cyclist Chris Hall as we chat about the latest controversy surrounding hookless wheels and the calls for them to be banned from the pro peloton. We also discuss a bizarre story of a pro team's "attempted fraud" (the UCI's words, not ours). Plus we talk to Chris about his journey from a corporate day job to becoming an adventure cyclist.
Here's the full breakdown:
00:00 A special guest…
02:10 Should this ‘dangerous’ tech be banned?
07:28 What’s the deal with foam tyre inserts?
13:05 Cheating pros caught in bizarre race plot
20:17 Rate My Ride is coming back
20:53 ‘How I quit my job & became an adventure cyclist’ (Big Question)
26:36 How Chris actually makes money
34:44 THIS is why cycling is so great
37:02 ‘Riding 107km every day for 107 days changed my life’
38:37 ‘Tough love doesn’t work’
40:00 Riding 7 Everests in 7 days & embracing ‘failure’
45:23 The problem with cycling social media
49:35 Battling pneumonia and breaking both wrists
53:02 Overrated/Underrated: Stretching warm-ups and cool-downs
54:25 Overrated/Underrated: Carbon everything
57:41 Overrated/Underrated: oversized jockey wheels
59:21 Aluminium is not all the same
01:00:42 Are electric cars better? Climate scientist weighs in
01:01:33 ‘I bought a tubeless ready bike - have I been scammed?’
If you’d like us to send in a question, story, some good news, things you’d like us to discuss or anything else, email us at wildonespodcast@cademedia.co.uk
Thanks and see you next time.
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It really was awesome to be a guest on the podcast. Thank you for letting me come on. Loved it.
Hi Chris,just finished watching you and Francis ride across Australia and I loved it.I live in Adelaide so was a bit familiar with.You are both amazing,thanks mate
Come to show more often if you could. Love your peacocking phenomenon on social media. Couldn‘t agree more.
Thanks for being real and raw with your story Chris, it is very inspirational and comforting at the same time.
emily, chris and jiimmy: any chance you would put the four hours out?! :) this episode was very nutritious and entertaining. thank you! a fellow fighter for the light here. holding that darkness back…. this HELPS.
sorry, my bad. jimmi. with an ‘i’.
Love Chris’s comment ‘he’s a bit older-34,35…..’ I’ve got shirts older than that.😂
😅
While there’s something about the manner of these guys I really like, even the smallest amount of research would help SO much… Manufacturers don’t like hookless rims because they’re lighter, they like them because they’re substantially easier and cheaper tor make. The hook on a hooked bead locks the rim into the mold so you have to use things like inflatable bladders. That’s their problem though, hookless is a bad idea for narrow road tires.
Lotto mechanics says they are always checking the pressure and it was always correct with tubeless spec. So they definitely know what they doing...
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that mechanics on a World Tour team don't know what their doing when it comes to tyre pressure. I have never ridden a hookless rim, don't own a pro level bike and have never worked as a mechanic - even I know not to exceed the recommended pressure on hookless rims.
Yeah I think I read somewhere that the margin of error for the tires could also be about the margin of error of bike pumps.
@@MrDinkydink A lot of World Tour mechanics are 'old school', so it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't setting them up correctly.
@@WerdnaLiten, do you really think that mechanics in a world tour team that are responsible for health of their riders by maintaining their bikes, can make such a mistake as not knowing how to use their sponsor equipment?
@@MrDinkydink mistakes happen even at the top. incompetence too.
Hookless
-Makes tires heavier by 25g each
-Makes wheels lighter by 15g each.
Maths no worky.
Edit: 28mm gp5k clincher 235g vs 28mm S TR 280g is actually a much bigger difference than I had originally typed. So hookless forces a 45g heavier per tire.
Let’s keep going:
- tube =19g
-30ml sealant =40g if I remember correctly.
The math ain’t mathin
Your wallet also gets a lot lighter so maths still works
But from the manufacturers perspective:
Save 10% on production
Charge 10% more for the gimmick
Hookless isn’t to benefit the consumer.
Math bad. Marketing such nice! Much aero, very speed!
@@markj.a351 And you can underline your statement with some examples? Whatever you think of hookless, Zipp eg made their wheelsets significantly, well, let's say more affordable. If they gave all their manufacturing savings to the costumer is of course a different question.
Great chat with Chris Hall!! When you were having the discussion with Chris on why/how he made the career transition started to being up “all the feels”.. the mental health struggles, the feeling of not being there in a year was raw and real.. thank you to Chris for sharing that and thanks to Emily and Jimmi for having the idea to have Chris on and talk about it. And especially loved the chat about not having to finish everything.. it’s ok.. loved Jimmi’s question of “did you have fun?”, awesome! Thanks for doing what you all do!
Try harder
Love Chris, great to see him back on Cade Media
I love the shirt 😂
I have diarrhoea
I second this! 👌🏽
Road tyre tubeless inserts are popular on the World Tour, simply because, a puncture will not stop the rider and allow the team car to catch up to swap wheels.
They are also good to give confidence on fast descents... Whether tubeless or with inner tubes, a sudden blowout can be catastrophic and these inserts can in fact keep you out of the hospital (with hooked rims).
Chris Hall - living my dream (also a designer wanting to be a full time fundraiser on the bike)! Chapeau.
My favorite part of the interview is the pictures shown at 24:13 of young Cade Media gang+Christ. Lovely chat, as usual. Chris seems like such a thoughtful, well-spoken person.
Bets on what's shorter? The amount of time for UCI to allow for disc brakes, a safety improvement; or time to act on hookless rims, an actual danger as-is.
I’m new to cycling. Could you please elaborate a little. Aren’t disc brakes already allowed by the uci? Or do you mean the time it took them to adopt them initially?
Thanks :)
Well, Vittoria said De Gendt's tire came off because of damage to the rim from running over a rock, so from that statement it seems the crash may have had nothing to do with hookless rims. With that said, the UCI released this statement today:
"In light of a series of recent incidents involving the use of hookless rims and tubeless tyres (a combination commonly referred to as hookless) in professional road cycling, the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) has decided to study the situation as a matter of urgency with a view to taking a rapid decision in the interest of rider safety.
These measures will be communicated as soon as possible.
The UCI shall continue to work closely with the stakeholders of cycling and equipment manufacturers to ensure that appropriate measures are taken both in the short and long term. This review and the decisions that will follow are part of the UCI's policy to promote rider safety, one of its major concerns."
Considering the number of crashes caused by disk brakes locking up, I wouldn’t call them a safety improvement for racers.
@@petesjk, I'd love to see the data you've collected on this and see how it compares to the number of crashes due to "locked-up brakes" in the years when rim brakes were dominant. I also can't wait to read how you collected the data and how you determined the cause of the crashes. No doubt you used a robust scientific method and took great care to eliminate sampling bias and to be sure that your own bias didn't affect the results.
Can you provide a link to the study you conducted and the large data sets you used?
@@robinseibel7540Right back at you, buddy. Do you have exhaustive detailed irrefutable body of evidence that disk brakes are safer in races, or are you just going by “personal experience “.
Chris is an amazing human. I love how he thinks deeply and talks sensitively. Great podcast.
Appreciate the kind words
Fantastic show today. I've enjoyed watching Chris' stuff and as a suffering want to be endurance rider, I subscribed the, "I did not finish, but had a great time trying" about 5 yrs ago. Since I changed my attitude on that, I found as time went by, that I have been able to do longer rides and achieve more of my goals that I ever could before and enjoy my suffering on the bike. Mind over matter as my mother would say. I think most social media is a scourge on society, it's made too many fake people.
Well that’s made my podcast week great to have Chris on the show !
Most "tubeless ready" I've seen did have the rim tape in place? Just had to put in valves and sealant! As Chris said, they just don't want the sealant to dry out while the bike sits around a warehouse or a shop...
Oh, my Canyon Endurace had tubeless ready wheels with rim tape, but the tyres were *not* tubeless ready! I'm using the tyres up first...
My tubeless ready didn't come with tape. Just tubes.
the issue here is the word 'ready'. its not till it is. i'm surprised consumer affairs (or whatever its called there) has allowed it to be termed that. it's deceiving.
What a brilliant episode! You just go from strength to strength. Respect.
Chris is great, tons of bike-related experience, caluabke info. Max respect!
Not sure how you held it together there at battling pneumonia onwards. I had tears in my eyes and could see them in yours. Really good to see this honesty about life.
Tbh I had to go and have a bit of a break after recording.
40:33 "still a significant amount of everests." ANY number of everests is a significant amount.
Great podcast again guys.
Great to see Chris and top style marks on the shirt as well! 👍
When I purchased my 2021 TCR my mechanic helped me pick my carbon wheels for it. He told me to get "hooked" rims so I could have the widest options in tires and that he wasn't sold on the tech. being better. Plus I do not run tubeless as I am pretty quick and changing tubes and it doesn't bother me to do it. Now that I see and hear of tires popping of the rims I am happy with my decision to buy "hooked" rims. Thanks for another great show. Keep up the good work.
Our goals should be to have fun, and enjoy it. Some how the ultra competitiveness that many of us have felt with riding and racing for years and years have really messed some of us up. It can be a struggle to just enjoy the ride sometimes, something that I am definitely working on.
Great podcast, this resonates hard. What a balanced a guy. I'm striving for this mind set.
Another excellent episode 👌🏾I’m really enjoying these 👊🏾✊🏾
Great seeing Chris again!
Another fantastic episode and looking forward to the next one👍
I loved your discussion about finishing an event. I did my first AIDS Lifecycle ride in 2022 which is 7 days over 545 miles. You get to do the ride if you meet the fundraising limit. I was riding a recumbent trike and completed 60% of the miles and took one day off due to a bad sunburn and lack of sleep the night before. But I enjoyed the ride and the love from all the other 2500+ riders and roadies on the event. I'll be doing the ride again in June but this time on a surly bridge club 27.5 touring bike.
40:00 - This is an attitude that responsible scientists embrace all the time. If you conduct an experiment and you get a negative result (DNF in cycling), then you still publish your findings. They publish negative results constantly, because doing so allows others to avoid making the same mistakes.
Haha. Thomas de Gent finishing a stage does not really indicate that he is fine. He is one of the hardest riders in the peleton and doesn't often fail to finish a stage, similar to his near namesake Thomas de Geraint.
Waiting on that 14 hour episode on bearings . Sounds informative.
Chris is an amazing person, so glad he is on the show.
A bit harsh to criticise Halfords. The specification section of the bike on the website states the tyres are “tubeless ready” and describes the rims as “Boardman Tubeless Compatible (Tape, Valves and Sealant Required)”.
I think that’s pretty clear isn’t it? Maybe an apology to Halfords is in order.
80 kg and running 26c tires. Tire pressure calculators put me at 85 psi front and 87 psi rear for recommendations, even with tubeless. To say no one is running >73 psi with tubeless is absolutely wrong.
Chris is such an inspirational character. We should all be a little more Chris. 'Howay the lad'...
Chris is such a legend , inspirational 👌 great episode as always
For the record, Vittoria put out a statement that said the reason the tire came off was because De Gendt ran over a rock that damaged the rim.
So at least in this case there is more to it than the more common finger pointing at either the rim, the tire, or the pressure.
Regardless whether he ran over a rock or not, the tyre still shouldn't have come off the rim.
If the rim breaks, as Vittoria said it did, the tire can absolutely come off the rim.
@@robinseibel7540 I've had plenty of broken rims from smashes on potholes and never had tyre come off the rim.
@@matthewclements8661, then I guess that means your experience must be representative of all such experiences and everyone else's doesn't count.
In a video, which I believe was the Eversting. I heard Chris say, " I know how to suffer and I will always do my best." He gained so much respect from me. I like to think I am in the same mindset. I am a United States Marine. We have a mantra which states "Embrace the suck!" I like to think that I don't turn away when the times are tough. When I decide to a personal challenge, I am not intimidated by the suffering. I look forward to the person I will be afterward. Regardless if I succeed in the challenge or not. I would rather attempt the challenge and fail, than not do the challenge at all. I am a process person and not a results person. And the journey is what I always value and remember , rather than the destination.
Loved this episode.
Great interview, thank you
I heard your podcast while riding my bike and it felt like I'm a part of your friend circle
Great topics this week 👍
Can't believe you're getting massive CZcamsrs on the show now, they grow up so fast ☺
Thanks for sharing your personal struggles with mental health, Chris. And that's a badass shirt BTW!
that was a great pod, and salute to chris for sharing his story. very inspiring individual.
Great podcast. I thought the road foam inserts were to help keep the tyre on the rim. I bet the tyres are over pressured. Zipp tested a 28mm Goodyear tyre on an 808 rim that survived to 175psi (Cycling Plus Oct 2022).
Nah the foam inserts allow the rider to somewhat carry on with a flat while the team car comes with a spare bike.
Hi there,
Great podcast; you are very interresting and gentle people
56:46 "Jimmy Neutral". 😂
Great podcast one word to describe Chris - humble👍
That blow out scenario happened to me last Sunday! Blew one side of the tyre completely off the rim
The "hybrid hooks" on Light Bicycle's latest wheels looks like a smart halfway solution.
it's like Chris Miller & Cade Media are fighting... same content... same thumbnails!... same audience.. i listen to both, and it's enjoyable to hear multiple takes.. but its getting funny how close the 2x weekly podcasts are. :D
On the subject of tubeless, also worth noting that some tire brands have models where the aftermarket version is tubeless compatible, but the OEM (not available for sale) version is not. People see the tire model spec'd on a bike and assume it's the tubeless compatible version, but it's not. Always double check!
Great episode, where did that hour go. 🤪
Goddamn it I love Chris. Prime bars are fantastic good shout, hope they survive the wiggle issues.
Hey chris its good to see you making a guest appearance on the vlog
Thank you! It was awesome to be part of it
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and not JUST for Chris's jacket! LOVE a Tiger Stripe 🐯
Chris is great. More Chris please!
Chris is a real inspiration. Great having him on the show!
Many congrats with the podcast by the way! I love tuning in and seeing how you grow into your new roles and create an entertaining listen & view. It is getting better every time.
Love these shows / podcasts….
Regarding Hookless tyres: As a heavier rider my recommended pressure for 32c tyres is around 67psi but 30c is 74psi so I can't safely use 30c on hookless at the recommended pressures.
Yep, it might be ok for 60kg pro riders, but not for us bigger guys. And I'm not even talking overweight: I'm 194 and 85, and couldn't use hookless without extra-wide.
Kudos to Chris' boss for not letting him quit and doing the redundancy thing.
Re the pro team fraud story, the thing I found stunning was the bans, especially the 2yr ban for the sports director which seemed overly harsh compared to what riders have received for far more severe infractions.
Enjoyable podcast and well done for taking the time to talk about mental health. I would urge Chris and anyone else suffering with their mental wellbeing to get their testosterone levels checked, it’s a major problem for me because of a condition I now have to manage and live with, but it’s becoming increasingly common for levels to be closer to the low end of “Normal” even in people who have no underlying conditions and believe themselves to be healthy.
8:29, fell out of my chair laughing.
19:40 not my idea but one I heard on why it could be: they take the place of another team that does try their best to always have enough riders to take part.
love Chris and love the tubeless ready comment at the end of the show. Enjoy it.
I think the progress in aluminum/engineering as it relates to the cycling industry is more obvious in the MTB realm with companies like actofive, pole using cnc bonded 7075 aluminum, Banshee's Paradox hardtail with their machined/tuned dropout and yoke designs and Atherton bikes entering the alloy realm as well.
The other problem with the blow off is that etrto says 28mm is below the threshold for hookless safety at that interior rim width(he's riding a 28) even though the wheel manufacturer says it's ok. On another side I personally run 30's at 70/74 psi front/rear
but my wheels are hooked.
I think the thing about the rider shortage, is that if they were unable to start with the correct number, another team that does have the ability to compete, has been denied a spot. The organiser wants to ensure that the race is as competitive as possible.
Disqualification because your team is too small: It's like every other sport. If you show up to a football game and you don't have enough players, you forfeit. This is because they don't want to have competitions where people aren't taking it seriously. Sure, for an amateur race it doesn't matter. For a professional race it matters. Imagine if the top teams said, "This race isn't so important to us, so we'll just send 1 or 2 token riders. We don't care if we win." It undermines the entire race. The rules for the number of riders is to protect the integrity of the race. That's it. The inflexibility is so that teams don't intentionally "bend the rules" because "we don't care about this race" and "want to just let some riders get some experience". It's literally to stop teams from doing that. If you have races with 5 riders, you need to travel with 6 or 7 so that you have spares. It's a professional race. It sucks if your team is too small or too disorganised to do that, but it's a professional race and these professional teams need to be at a certain minimum standard.
Hookless/tubed debate. It's a completely false that a tube should be run at a higher pressure compared to tubeless, air volume is air volume. for instance Silca's calculator will give you the same pressure there or there abouts whether you're running tubes or tubeless. You will not pinch flat a tubed 28c tyre that measures 30-31mm on modern rims run at 60psi. This is the thinking that gets everyone in trouble running tubeless to begin with.
Very good episode
I quit road inserts. I was hoping that I would be able to not carry a spare. In the end, they just made it impossible to mount some tubless tires.
over-/under-rated:
- bike build videos
- multiple oil/greases for bike maintenance
- any other BB than square taper
Cheers from Berlin!
Chris's experience of architecture seems quite similar to that of my wife. Went into it purely out of academic interest, completed all the training and worked for several years. It is unfortunately a very stressful and undervalued profession which is pitifully paid unless you want to sell out your soul to big developers.
My wife did at least have one lasting and positive effect on the cycling world though, being the lead architect on Glentress Mountain bike centre. Now if only I liked MTBs rather than gravel and road...! 😆
From my personal experience, I have ridden hookless for 2 years now with zero issues. My ZIPP 404s have been through any road conditions you can imagine and I have never lost confidence in the tire staying on the rim.
I am 71kg and ride at 62psi from and 65psi rear with 700x28mm Pirelli P-Zero Race tires.
What hasn't been talked about if the benefits of hookless and the ability to run significantly lower tire pressure. In crit racing, my hookless wheels and the ability to ride lower pressure with no rolling resistance disadvantage, aid in better corner grip. In my view, better grip results in less crashes while cornering compared to other set ups.
The Lotto issue discussed is unfortunate, but are hookless rims doing more good for overall safety than bad?
i liked what this guy is saying 6:12 teams appear to us as pro level they KNOW everything but they don't. i have hooked and hookless. my hooked wheels setup is at 75 psi, but my hookless is 55 psi, far far from max.
having said that if pro teams switch away people will leave them behind.
5:00 I hope they go on to highlight that this is rotating weight so these grams are significantly more important to a "road weenie" than 20-30g grams off a frame weight, for example.
Thanks!
Elastomer suspension stems are great. Maybe not for sprint racing but other stuff. Especially for older bikes that cant fit nice 32-35mm tires.
There were way more brands making alloy frames from 7005 grade in 2000’s. My old Scott Scale 60 Mtb is made from it. Toptube is so thin, that you can squeeze it a bit even. Sounds also like carbon when knock on it.
Then I guess carbon came in. Now, most alloy frames are made with 6061 grade.
I’m running 80psi tubeless (and I’m sure many others are), as recommended by the Silca tire pressure calculator (total system weight of 200lbs on 28mm tires)
Same. Not sure what he’s talking about no one running tubeless anywhere near 73psi. I’m recommended 84 back 80 front by silca
Why are you guys using tubeless? You are not getting much benefit from an 28mm 84PSI tubeless tire. 🤷
The Silca site is terrible for accuracy. I have done over 12k road miles hookles at 225lbs and run 60psi F and 64psi R for 28mm tires.
I’m running tubeless for the puncture sealing benefit. I’ve had many punctures on training rides that tubeless has successfully sealed. Tubes are also dangerous for blowouts, especially with latex tubes, if you install it quickly and pinch it between the rim bead and rim, it’ll blow off a few miles down the road (seen this happen multiple times) . As for the Silca tire pressure accuracy, I’m sure you could be right, I race p1/2 and used to run hookless at 65psi, but I often struck the rim on bumps (especially whilst cornering) so I switched back to hooks and increased pressure. I’m 175lbs
@@defsef9737 Personally, I look at the Silca calculator as being directional versus definitive - kind of a starting point, season to taste. Selected surface condition, speed, tire type, and measured tire width make a huge difference in the results. One item commonly overlooked item is measured tire size - right now I have two different sets of 28C tires mounted on different wheels - one measures right at 28mm, the other measures at 30mm.
I think it's something to do with the tyre insert (airstrip). Maybe this increases the pressure when used. Or they've compensated with using a lower pressure, and when there was an impact, the insert has caused the tyre to blow off? ... interesting stuff
The sheer hubris of this guy to suggest that the PROFESSIONAL race mechanics at Lotto Destiny may not fully understand modern tyre pressure limits 😂😂
Satisfaction , not fun, is perhaps more important and a better metric. Almost no-one does a triathlon to have fun. Few can probably have fun doing it. They are gruelling. Equally having fun on a ride isn't necessarily going to mean it was satisfying for you.
Some people need to beat others, no doubt there's a lot of psychology you can do into that, but it's a competitive person. Others want to achieve a set distance, or time, or want to help another person finish, so even if they have 'fun' but that person doesn't finish then it isn't satisfying, hollow victory.
As long as how and why you ride satisfies you then all power to you.
I think it has more to do with the tires than the rim! I have a giant tcr with SLR 1 hookless rims. On the Giant site there is a list of tires that you can use with the diameter and maximum pressure. And I have gp5000str 28 mm rims with 60 psi at the front and 65 psi at the rear. And as a sealant silca. Installation was no problem at all and I had a leak several times and only discovered it at home and barely lost any air. Personally, I wouldn't get a tire like the Vittoria Corsa Pro because those cotton sides are worthless, as is their puncture resistance. There's nothing wrong with hookless if you just stick to what the manufacturer recommends.
I was kinda hesitant about going with Giant SLR1-50 hookless, until i read how Giant does their testing🤯 They have my confidence 👍
I don't want Giant to dictate my choice of tyres so I bought my Defy without the carbon rims and upgraded the wheels. I never liked hookless rims back in the 1970s and I think hooked rims are so much safer.
OK. So I bought the Brand X carbon drop bars from CRC a few months back. It cost me £9.99 discounted from £109.99! In fact, I bought a few of them, for my future builds. They are pretty decent and at this price, it was just a pure bargain!
Yes round carbon bars are great for vibration compliance .... My prime ones £119
I just got some TUFO Tubular Clinchers, Any opinions on these?
A big problem is a lot of bikes are sold with hookless rims (see Giant), and buyers don't know that they can't ride certain tires or use certain pressures. Very dangerous.
Interesting to see that you say post stretching is overrated ,I never use to until I ripped a muscle & vien from cramp .
Yay Chris !
What a hero!!
Just watched The Nero show, and they were saying the rim spec was 29mm tires And Thomas dg was running 28mm tires !
Inserts for road tires is a normal thing. They use it in the tour for a while now. At least the Vittoria compressible one
The point about hookless tubeless that everyone seems to miss is Systems weight. If you use SILCA’s tire pressure calculator even folks who are fairly light exceed 70 psi even with typical modern widths. I’m 74 kg and with the bike and kit easily 85 kg. That puts me around 80 psi for a wider 28-30 mm road tire. I’d need to run 32s to get into the 70 psi range. On my gravel bike none of this matters. The wide tires means my pressure is less than 40 psi and hookless tubeless works just fine.
Why put an insert in a road tyre? Correct air volume helps keeps the tyre in place.
As you've reduced the air volume, isn't this going to mean it's more likely to cause the tyre to become detached from the rim?
Inserts in my Road bike so I can limp home to fix my tubeless puncture 😂. I’ll stick to tubes. TPU, lightweight, low rolling resistance, easy to carry, easy to fit. Clean to service, cheaper.
💯
With the exception of sew ups that are glued to the rim, I am unaware of any tire/rim combo that is not hook and bead. Car company execs to NHTSA, "we've got this new wheel system that does not use a hook and bead. Instead there is no hook, no bead, and you run the tires at a lower psi." NHTSA...No!!!
The prime carbons bars are great. Ive purchased 3 of them. Sad to see the brand go down