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Wessex Triple Horn Review! - Triple horn for 1/3 cost!!
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- čas přidán 22. 02. 2019
- I feel like I have to keep mentioning that I filmed this video a year ago and lost the footage! So it is a bit rambly but I wanted to make sure I could post a video for you! I'm also terrible at explaining myself. I really enjoy this horn. It plays fantastically and is well worth the price point if you need a triple.
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Wow! I’m amazed at how cheap price wise the Wessex horns are. I’m a beginner at the horn (about a year) and I’ve looked at triple horn and double horn prices (I play single currently). The doubles were about in the 2,000 to 7,000 dollar range and triples were in the 9,000 to 11,000 dollar range. The Wessex horns aren’t pricy yet are very high quality. Thank you for these videos!
The price difference is reflected in the quality. If I compared this horn to the Schmidt triple it would obviously not compare. But for the price, it is a great horn.
I'm 44. I started playing the horn when I was 9. I have never heard of a triple horn. So cool.
I think it's the standard F & Bb with a High F added (descant F register for very high notes). He didn't really make that clear. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.
I think you should remove the background music when playing the horns you are reviewing si we can hear the sounds clearly. Thanks
The in camera mic doesn't reflect the sound of the horn anyway so I left the music in. Wouldn't have been clear either way.
@@FhornPatrick It's true that a particular mic may not capture the true sound of an instrument, however consider how background noise/music can interfere with hearing how well in tune the instrument plays as well as being able to hear how it articulates, or playing different dynamics while playing a particular characteristic sound like dark and round or bright and edgy, etc.
As much silence as possible will really add to the quality of your reviews (when playing instruments that is 😊).
Those who are hearing-impaired would greatly appreciate the deletion of background music whenever you speak as well as while playing the horn. Thank you!
I was considering a triple horn, but my teacher said where I have a Bb/high F descant horn and a standard F/Bb double, that it'd be unessesary. And in all honesty I love both for different reasons, like if I'm playing first horn and really high in the register I will use my descant horn, but for duets, and wind ensembles I use my double
Can you do some playing in the extreme registers of the triple horn, like maybe a double g or some really low stuff
I unfortunately don't have the chops... nor think there's a reason to do it. It doesn't give you any extra range. It just makes the range you have a little easier.
FhornPatrick your range is probably really cool. But I know someone who can hit the lowest and someone who can hit the highest note on a double horn
@@lukeypo0key95 What do you think is the highest note? The lowest is defined at a concert B1 (horn F#2), but there isn't really a "highest note."
@@FhornPatrick The reason for playing high on the high F alto (descant) side of the horn is to both hear how well in tune it plays as well as hearing the characteristics of the high horn (Can it play lightly and quietly and does it still sound like a horn?). Most descant horns (in this case the short F alto side) have problematic tuning, especially if the horn is cheap, and they also lose a lot of the characteristic horn sound (again especially on cheap horns).
And the reason for playing low is that a lot of triple horns have a great Bb side, an OK high F alto side and only a poor to bad F basso side. And a very important point that was not even mentioned in the video is that this is not a full triple horn but a compensating triple horn. Compensating triple horns are lighter than full triples (and because of the saved weight they actually sound closer to a full double than full triples do, and therefore blend better in a section of doubles) but compensating triple horns are known to Practically ALWAYS have poorer F basso sides than full triples do, they also most often sound stuffier and have a tendency to be harder to play in tune on the F basso side due to the compensating valves, and this is especially noticeable on cheap makes and models.
Most professionals play a full double in F basso and Bb alto for most gigs and they have a double descant in Bb alto and F alto (full, not compensating) for the occasional high and/or lighter texture work.
One would tend to think that a triple horn would cover everything well, but the reality is (as I partially covered above) that even a good quality triple horn, be it full or compensating, is going to weigh more than a double, or in other words have more mass, and this extra mass/weight will make the sound of the horn darker, and not only that but the added weight/mass will make the horn slower to respond. It will however make it easier to play loud but on the other hand make it significantly harder to play softly.
As you may see, it is all these considerations and more that experienced professionals take into account before committing to a triple as it can seriously deviate from the standard horn sound and playing qualities.
(Forgive the long entry.)
I’ve recommended Wessex to people who have kids starting out on horn. Unfortunately they never seem to be in stock. I’ve wanted a Wagner for myself (just for kicks) and they are out as well.
This is a compensating triple horn: the b-flat level is as on any horn with a b-flat side, and the low f side works by using the slides for the b-flat side, plus an extra length on the bottom row. So when you're playing on the low f side, and you depress the 1st valve, the air goes through the 1st valve slide on the b-flat side before traveling down through the f row (bottom row of slides), where it passes through an additional shorter slide that makes up the difference between the b-flat first valve and low f first valve slides, giving you a note with the same frequency as that on any low f horn with the first valve depressed.
There are also regular double horns which are compensators. Compensating horns have a shady reputation, largely because they require finer production tolerances - cheaper models of the past could be really bad - but present-day makers are capable of meeting these tolerances. I have heard some great playing on compensating triple and double horns.
This particular horn is a near clone of the Alexander 309 triple, as far as the wrap goes. The gauge of the tubing and bore size may be different.
Well said (and explained). Sounds like you know your horns.
It's true that the quality of compensating horns has improved over the years. I have noticed though that there are still a lot of poor quality ones being made.
I have heard good sounding recordings performed on a compensating triple, but that horn cost between 25 and 30 thousand dollars!
Sadly, in my experience and research at least, even most full triples in the 8 to 10 thousand dollar range don't quite cut it when it comes to the low F side matching the sound quality of a full double and having the high F side play in tune, and much less the whole thing sounding like a horn.
Nope, you either have to pay more for what you custom order or buy a used one for significantly cheaper (just good luck finding exactly what you're looking for 😏).
Thank you very much. I am a 9th grader and was planning to but my own horn because my current school horn was crap. So I was and was going to buy a triple horn but now I think I would just get a dubble horn. Thanks very much
I got to try the wessex horns over at TMEA a little while ago. Personally, I wasn't quite fond of them. The valves just didn't feel good to me (a little sticky and slow) and the sound felt really thin and was really hard to control. It mightve just been the particular horns that they brought to the exhibitions, but after two years of trying them out with similar results, I'm still pretty skeptical about this brand. But who knows, maybe if they're bought brand new from the website they might be a lot better than I've been able to experience
mr synco what school in TX?
yeah, it's not F horns they have their reputation built upon but they still build competent instruments of several types
Could you do another tip video on tonguing? I have really been looking for a better way to tongue quicker without cracking and loosing my tone. Love your videos!
My understanding is that the triple horn is F - Bb - High F. I only have a very cheap Bb horn with thumb trigger for half-step lower. But I would love to have a "descant" Bb - High F horn if I could afford it. I am actually a string player but began learning to play the Bb single horn about 7 years ago. I understand Dennis Brain did most of his solo concerts on a Bb single horn.
is there such thing as a quadruple horn?
Wait, did you just say you didn’t try out the high F side because you won’t use it for high notes? What is the point of having a triple horn then?
I use the high F side for low notes now. I have never needed help with high notes. I assume if I were to have to play a first part with extraordinary high parts for a long time I would use it.
FhornPatrick do you play this horn instead of your 8d or finke? I could not imagine that the F side on a compensating triple is very good. And if you don’t even need the high F side you are essentially playing a really heavy and stuffy compensating double.
@@compulsoryevacuationdevice I don't have the finke and 8d anymore. I have just the wessex horns and another horn I bought in highschool that I'd never sell.
@@compulsoryevacuationdevice Well spoken!
Even good quality makes of triples, both full and compensating, have poor sounding low F sides.
(It's usually the Super expensive ones over ten grand that start to have a somewhat decent sounding F basso side.)
This is great information! I've been thinking about getting a triple horn for a bit. I'm still really new to playing french horn, so I'll stick with my double for now. Mine is the Yamaha YHR-668NII Professional Double French Horn, and I really like it. It has a detachable bell because my case before was sort of annoying. What's your opinion? Is Yamaha a good brand? Thanks!
Stick with double. I'm 15 years into horn playing and still unsure if I should have a triple. Yamaha horns are some of my favourites.
@@FhornPatrick thanks!
That is a Great horn! Definitely a professional model that can last you a lifetime. (I played the earlier version of that model in high school 😄📯)
Yamaha's are known for being very consistent in their manufacturing quality.
Their student and intermediate models I think are OK. Their professional models are Really good. Especially their V Series, but those really jump in price. Their "Custom" models are not actually custom at all but instead are their triple horn (full) and double descant (full) models.
I've heard great things about their double descants as far as playing in tune and being pretty light weight (partially due to their proprietary "long" change valve) and having a good horn sound on the high F side. I hear this horn is well suited for baroque repertoire.
Sadly, what I've heard about the triple horn is that it has a rather lack luster low F side.
I've personally Never seen or known of a single professional that plays a Yamaha triple, but many professionals play on a Yamaha double descant.
Yamaha horns have a rather large bore size relative to other brands but as long as you sound good and play well on it this shouldn't be a big deal at all. But what is, or what will be, a big deal is that the specific model line you have of 668 has an extra large belt throat size, listed as LL with Yamaha, but in recent times this has started to be known simply as Large regardless of what make or model. This horn may suit you fine for larger ensembles and in settings where you need a lot of volume, but it may not be the best fit for solo work or smaller ensembles or when you want to play more delicately and quietly, and high horn playing may give you some struggles if you stick with solely this horn. So you may eventually want to consider a horn with a smaller bell throat, like the Yamaha 667 line, and/or getting a double descant horn (if you play more high horn repertoire).
Another reason why such a large bell throat could be a big deal is that the classic Hollywood soundtrack sound of a larger bell throat is starting to become a thing of the past...there recently has been more of a shift back to the smaller Medium-Large (ML) bell throat size and smaller.
If you really like your horn though and would like to keep it AND still get the benefit of a smaller bell throat, well there IS another option! 😃
... ...
You already have a detachable screw bell, so why not get ANOTHER BELL FLARE?! 😃😄😆😃😄
You would need to get your screw ring converted to one that accepts multiple bell flares such as Englebert Schmid who makes screw rings that have the same threading and inside diameter to fit ALL the different bell flare sizes that they offer so that on your one horn you can go from your extra large silver bell to a medium gold brass bell, etc.
5 different throat sizes, 4 different metal options, with garland or without, spun bell or hand hammered, lacquered or unlacquered 😃 The combinations of the different bells you can have for the different sounds you want on just one horn is Amazing!
But all these can be some pricey options to consider so really give yourself some time to grow as a player before you decide which way to go.
The last major option, and probably the cheapest one, to consider for changing the sound quality and playing characteristics of your horn is changing your mouthpiece, but that can be a lifelong journey in itself...
WHOLE 'nother long subject matter there. 😏 (Until you're more experienced just find one that works well for you and Stick with it. Better practice will help you more than a better mouthpiece.)
so do u think its worth buying the wessex triple horn if im using it for my diploma or future since the alexander 103 is rlly expensive
Old video. Maybe Patrick won't be active in the comments section. The Wessex website shows Natural horns as well as Single, Double, etc. Maybe someone here can comment on the Wessex Natural horn. Amazing price.
For the high F side, are the fingerings different
I have played french horn for 12 years , should I consider a triple horn?
Not really much point unless you have a few thousand dollars to throw around
Can the lower thumb key be switched so that the horn stands in F?
This depends on the individual horn (some makes offer it as a custom option). Some are changeable, the vast majority are not.
I cannot be 100% certain as I have not held one in my hands and I could not find those specs on their website, but by looking closely at the pictures of the change valves of this model in depth it unfortunately does not appear as though the F basso Bb alto change valve lever arm and bearing rotor attachment is designed to be able to be switched around (but a skilled technician can change that).
Some triple horns (and even some doubles) give you the option to switch the standing of the change valve, likely because they have two thumb triggers and therefore make it easier to switch between the three horns (if not for the expectation that these horns are used more for high playing). This one appears to be fixed at standing in Bb.
Is it a compensating or full triple
I need my own double horn for college...
Well considering I’m off to college in the fall... I like the sound of one for 800 that he mentioned
I can’t unfortunately.. I want to next year
@@damiansullivan7865 Are you simply just playing horn at your college? If so a good working beginner to intermediate horn may do, depending on the repertoire being played and/or how demanding your playing will be. Keep in mind a lower quality instrument will be harder to play and will eventually hold you back from advancing.
Are you instead majoring in music performance? If so you will definitely need at least a good working intermediate horn to allow you to keep advancing.
If money is a concern buy used. There are many great older professional model horns in decent shape for the same price as a brand new intermediate model (and they've already been broken in 😄).
If you are majoring you will likely be taking private lessons so it would be wise to get the guidance of your teacher and if possible have your teacher try out the horn before you buy it.
And lastly, the thing to keep in mind if you are majoring in music performance is that depending on where you plan on making your career (east coast, west coast) it can determine the type of horn you'll need for your gigs. (Some orchestras require the entire horn section to have the same make and model.)
Best of luck to you and remember to enjoy the music!
How much extra range does the triple horn give a "mere mortal" horn player, over the range of the double horn? When do the harmonics become so close together most players can't repeatedly hit the right harmonic?
@Jess Stuart It doesn't actually give you a higher range, although some descant horns (the high F horn that is of a shorter length) have a smaller bore or a smaller bell throat, or sometimes on these horns you use a smaller mouthpiece or one with a shallower cup, and these things May assist you in getting more range, but it's no guarantee. Not by a long shot.
The F alto horn (the high horn that is 6 feet long) is half the length and therefore one octave higher than the F basso horn (the low horn that is 12 feet long) so the harmonics and therefore fingerings are exactly the same on the high F horn except one octave higher.
Where on the low F horn the open notes around Bb, C and D on the staff start to blur together (which is why you commonly switch to the higher and shorter 9 foot long Bb alto horn around this area in the staff, with the harmonics being spread out a perfect 4th higher than on the low F side) you will similarly experience the same blurring-of-notes-together effect when playing open high Bb, C and D above the staff on the high F horn. If you can normally play this high on a lower-keyed horn then playing this high on the F alto horn will make it easier to play more accurately, with more delicacy and brightness, and more softly, but conversely it can make it harder to play louder (and not to mention it can Really sound less horn-like 😒).
Because of the ease of accuracy this greatly facilitates faster more technical passages that would otherwise sound Very muddy or be flat out impossible for the player to execute.
I personally can consistently play high D's and squeak out high F's above the staff but it's difficult for me to play actual melodies above high Bb because of the blurring of the notes. With the high F horn I can actually play Real melodies up to high D and even hit the high F with some clarity and definition (sometimes) without just relying on squealing it! 😄
I hope this gives you a better idea.
@@OCON06,
Thanks. I still seems a little silly to me to have dual or triple instruments all in one (I'm a saxophone player). I was trying to learn about different types of French Horns at the time because my son (5th Grade) was wanting to play french horn in band. I ended up getting him a used King 1157 double french horn on ebay for about $400 (no mouthpeice). I was on the fence about whether to get a single or double horn but ended up getting him a double horn that "should" last him through high-school.
@@jessstuart7495 @Jess Stuart @Jess Stuart 😅 Yeah, I hear yah. There's very few instruments I've encountered that have multiple versions of themselves in one. The ocarina has a limited range (usually little more than an octave) so it's common to see multi-chambered ocarinas. (I've seen a Quintuple ocarina! 😲)
I'm familiar with King horns. That double should work just fine through high school as long as it's still in good working order.
Just to confirm... You said a King 1157?
Does that have a piston change valve between the F and Bb sides? 😃 If so you probably got a valuable rare antique! 😄😆☺️😁
It's my understanding they didn't make many of those models.
@@OCON06,
I'm sorry it is a 1159. It has a rotary trigger valve to switch between the F and Bb horns.
@@jessstuart7495 Ah. No worries. That's a more common model but it's still from the same time era, so it's likely worth continuing to maintain it in shape.
Pls can you review about reynolds contempora french horn? Classic french horn ..
How’s the intonation on it?
Always nice to have have background sound in a music video. It eliminates the ability to properly hear, along with training people to ignore sound altogether.
Great job!
How about playing some Strauss or Wagner excerpts next time with Star Spangled Banner in the background?
I hear your point. And it's a good one.
What mouthpiece are you using? Is that one of the Kelly mouthpieces?
How long would u say this French horn would last u
A Good quality triple horn, if properly selected, could last your entire career. However you may still have a need, or find you prefer, for some situations one or two other horns, likely a full double and either a single descant in high f or a double descant.
However, if you are referring to this particular make and model, all my research and study goes to show that this is not a professional model, therefore this horn would likely not suit a professional at all and probably not be a good option for a serious college student. Triple horns are Notorious for intonation problems and Not sounding like a horn, and that's on Professional models! 😲
If you are an amateur this may suit you fine as long as it mechanically functions fine.
If you are an enthusiast I find it difficult to believe you'd be happy with it for more than "The Honeymoon" phase... I've bought more than my fair share of low-priced "Professional Model" instruments and Very quickly it gets Frustrating how they just Don't add up. 😒
im in 9th grade and i use a double horn but now im considering a triple horn, should i try it?
Same I also am a 9th grader And I've been thinking about a triple for a bit
No.
As I say in the video. Triples are for professionals who require it for that extra push. Stay on double until you’re making $$$$$$$
@@FhornPatrick okie Thank you for the advice :) Have a lovely day
@@FhornPatrick thanks for advice, i'll stay double then 😁
3:30 wait. "I don't use the high side" So you bought a F Bb F horn but don't use the high F? What was the point then?
My Wessex double horns first rotor is sticking and has friction as you push, do you know what I should do?
It also gets stuck before i push it
@@randallrobinson8276 Cheap instruments often use low-quality parts. Rotor valves need to be made with tight tolerances as well as be assembled properly in order to work well. Sadly many cheap instruments have valves that stick and there's usually not much that can be done, that's cost effective relative to the value of the instrument.
Here's what I'd do...
First I'd remove all the sides and wipe them clean and run a brush inside all the tubes, Making Sure NOT TO TOUCH the Rotor valves when brushing inside the valve slide tubes. (You don't want to knick them and make things worse.)
Then give your horn and all its slides a bath with a little mild detergent, like Dawn Dish Soap, and after soaking for a while repeat the brushing process until it looks like no residue is coming off anymore when scrubbing with the brush.
Then towel dry (don't skip this step and make sure you do it well, because you don't want to give it a chance to corrode) and them completely air dry everything.
Oil the rotors you can reach through their respective slide ports without the oil bottle tip touching the insided of the tube to prevent slide grease from gumming up the rotor. Make sure to work the lever that you are oiling as you are oiling it to help the lubricating process. If possible you'll need to run some oil through some other tubing for the change valve, or possibly even run extra oil through one of the main rotors and then move the horn around to have gravity send the oil to the change valve.
After this put a Light coating of slide grease on all the slides focusing on the 1/4 to 1/2 (No more than 3/4) sections away from the open tube ends to also help prevent gumming up the rotor valves. (The slide grease will spread throughout the slide when it is moved in and out.)
Then, if possible with a light bearing oil, oil the bearings under the valve caps.
And finally, if possible with a heavy bearing or linkage oil, oil ALL the linkages, moving pivot screws, springs, for the levers (even the springs for the spit valves if any), etc.
... ...
At first you may have to do this every time you play it, the oiling, not the bathing and greasing, but do bathe and grease it once a month.
If the valves still don't work properly after the second time you've done the entire process then I'd suggest taking it to a technician for an Estimate. At this point you'd then be better informed as to whether or not it would be worth it to fix whatever may be wrong. And it could be with the valves specifically, like needing replating which is Majorly expensive, or the horn itself in some other way. Sometimes the tubing around the valves gets dented or bent and it can be almost impossible to detect and this misalignment can make the valves stick but the cost of fixing something like this could vary from very cheap and affordable like if it's just bent tubing, to Very pricey like if a dent or bend pushed some tubing into and dented or warped a valve casing. (This happens very often when a mouthpiece, or something else like keys or a tuner, rattles around in the case unsecured). This is where lots of times people decide to invest TONS on valve oil and try for Months to Years to Try and get the valves of the instrument to work, or simply just leave it as an ornament and save up money for a better investment.
If only the doubles were in stock ever.
@Connor Utegg - - IKR ...
Okay, so totally unrelated to this video, but I've noticed that after playing horn for a certain amount of time, I start to get itchy red rashes on my arms. I think I'm allergic to the metal. Is there anything I can do to help this issue? Some people have recommended that I get a hand grip, but that still leaves my right hand and arm exposed. Also, I have no idea where to start when looking for a hand grip.
Does your horn have lacquer on it?
@@FhornPatrick yes, I can't do anything about it because it's a school owned instrument. However, I am looking to buy a horn in the next couple of months.
@Madison Long First of all, most horns are lacquered, even most silver ones (which are usually lacquered nickel silver) unlike silver trumpets which are usually silver plated. You occasionally have an actual silver plated horn, and sometimes you find a chrome plating on some cheaper or older model horns. And then there's the much less common gold plated and unlacquered horns, but these are usually the much more expensive professional models, although lacquer wearing off is very common on horns so it's possible that an older horn has seen enough wear and tear to have most of its lacquer worn off.
If you do Not have green "stains" rubbing on to your skin then my guess is you do Not have copper poisoning.
By the symptoms you've described my guess would be that EITHER you have a contact allergic reaction to the nickel in a nickel silver horn that has had a LOT of lacquer worn off, OR more than likely you are experiencing a contact dermatitis allergic reaction to the oil urushiol (in your lacquer), which is found in various plants (including poison ivy and poison oak) and in China is found in a tree known as the Chinese lacquer tree and it produces a sap with this allergenic irritant oil in it, and it's then used to make many cheap allergic-reaction-inducing jewelry, knickknacks, tableware and musical instruments, as well as lacquer for coating things with.
Are you playing a cheap instrument and/or is it an instrument that more than likely used cheap, low-quality lacquer?
If so the best thing is to get Rid of it and get a better quality instrument that either doesn't have lacquer, or uses a better quality lacquer.
You can get your horn relacquered, but if my guess is correct that you got a cheap horn then the high price of relacquering could Easily outweigh the worth of the horn...Probably better to go with another option.
Other than getting another horn that is made of or has different materials on it that you are not allergic to, the handguard could be a good option. I recommend looking up universal fit handguards. Most music stores, either brick-and-mortar or online and even Amazon, carry them. But in theory the handguard would only protect you where you rest your hand while playing. It does nothing for your right hand in the bell, as well as for when you are adjusting the slides or removing a tuning slide to drain water from the horn.
For this I see the necessity of both wearing gloves And long sleeves whenever you play. It may not be fun but until you find a horn that you do not have an allergic reaction to it may be the only way.
I am eager to hear how things come along for you.
@@OCON06 thank you for the in depth explanation! As for what horn I used, it was a brand new Jupiter horn bought by the school I attended. I forget the model. Unfortunately, I quit playing horn about a year ago due to motivation loss and not being able to afford my own horn for college.
Can u do a update on the $895 French horn?
Brooke Halasey I have that horn but safely the price has gone up to around $1000
How is the French horn holding up.
It’s ok except I’m having some trouble with me first rotor
Ok perfect thank you, would u say it’s an ok horn to buy for high school
@@brookehalasey3532 Perfect horn for a high school player. The valves need to be oiled every day. I am using Hetman 11 and oiling through the valve cluster, as well as under the caps. I use Alisyn on the linkages. The valves are getting faster over time.
Yo
I was in that Horn People group. It's not a thing anymore. 😕
Jessica Good agreed.
Is Horn people group that FB group?
Finally
Hey
Change your broken camera, please
Can you do a giveaway, I can’t afford a triple
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