What Is Causing This?!
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- čas přidán 28. 02. 2023
- Tom gets a call because the concrete at a warehouse is heaving. Check out what he finds underneath the concrete!
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Tom , without a proper soil test this could come back to bite you .We were called in to remedy a slab in a municipal garage that was heaving , after breaking out a section of floor 8"thick we had a soils engineer take a coring sample , his findings were we were actually on a peet bed that was app 4' deep , if not deeper .Their solution was to layer 2" dense blue styrofoam in a predetermined criss cross pattern to stabilize the future concrete floor , surprisingly this was done in numerous building in the area and was a working solution . we did this app 8 yrs ago and it is a municipal vehicle garage , so far we have had no problems , we are in the metropolitan Chicago area ! hope for the best and pour the rest !
Was the job done wrong? Or are you being a critic?
@@paulrosselle9747 Did you read what he said?? This "could come back to bite you" because he may have needed to excavate more material. However, if the water table was that high, what then?? I'm sure there could have been more testing and greater costlier solutions, but being a leased building with the owner responsible for the repairs, I get it. I don't think the guy was being a critic, he was sharing his experience with a solution that works in similar situations...
DC maybe people didn't realize the business owner is responsible for the maintenance and upgrades and not the building owner.
Agreed. Seem it before. Styrofoam. Drainage would help a lot. Next big rain....
@@paulrosselle9747 no on both counts . Job was bid as occupant wanted it repaired .Owner of building should have known this was a problem since he has owned it .I'm just being honest that we had a similiar problem with a municipal building , the floor was heaving .After numerous attempted repairs owner called us and we immediatly took soil borings .Boring company suggested excavating to minus 4ft and layering in 2 in styrofoam in a pre determined pattern to within 10in of finish grade and pour with rebar ....it works !
I am a life-long engineering QA/QC person, and I really enjoy watching a conscientious professional boss running a good team. You are a good example to others. Keep on keeping on !
Thank you very much. I really enjoy every day.
Amen brother
It may have been a good idea to have dug a 10 foot hole , 3' in diameter put a 3' diameter piece of culvert in it with weep holes and put in a sump pump. Cut a channel for a a drain pipe . By lowering the water table it could prevent future heaving. Just a thought.
Always enjoy watching you and your team figure out the problem, and then professionally finishing it!! Thanks for the soil education Tom.
Our pleasure!
Killing it my guy
Very nice you took the time to explain about expanding soil’s. Most people wouldn’t do that that gives us all the indication of your character Tom thank you very much very useful information
Glad it was helpful!
I was in commercial construction for over 45 years and have experience with heaving and subsidence. Generally speaking, depending where you are geographically, heaving can be caused by many things like leaking pipes under the slab, unstable soils types below the slab such as high P.I. soils or fat clays. A soils investigation by a qualified Geotechnical engineer would expose this before foundation and slab work if employed. In severe cases the entire slab may need to be removed and remedial work applied to the subgrade such as lime stabilization or complete soil replacement. It's always a complicated subject with lots of finger pointing. Good luck!
Appreciate your comments from professionals that has had practical experience in a construction dilemma like this. The owner of this property I’m sure appreciates all the input as well as Tom.
Hey Tom, first time viewer of your channel here. First, great episode and wonderful explinations. Thank you! We ran into a similar issue in Lubbock, Texas back in 2009. Slag was used as a base media, and we found that every time it rained our warehouse would heave. Our company was a distributor of water chemistry for industrial treatment so 275 gallon totes would go in and out all day on forktrucks. We would avoid traveling over the effected area when it did heave, as best we could. That said, we did not tear out. Instead (since the building was at the base of a hill and water was pooling in a low area around the building) we built a 3' deep french drain around 3/4 of the building. Mainly around the areas were no traffic would be. Almost instantly the slag stopped heaving as we diverted any water away from the foundation and out toward the street for runoff. This solved our issue, and 14 years later we're still doing great! Might be something worth suggesting. We also placed a few layers of poly in the bottom of the trench and up the wall toward the building, then covered it, to prevent any passthrough leeching. It's not cheap, but it's cheaper than pouring 3000 sq.ft. of concrete again. Water, it's a huge pain in the butt.
Great episode! I'll be back for sure!
Nice job Tom, and it seemed a good compromise to fix what really had to be repaired and not tearing out the entire floor. Nice weather in there too, considering it’s feb!
Thanks 👍
I spent a career in commercial/industrial construction supervision, & my compliments on this video!… very clear presentation from the guy doing the work!
I’ve forwarded this on to construction colleagues, recommending both the video & the many astute comments to it.
Wow, thank you!
Loving the new music…perfect touch.
Very informative Tom. I learned something new with this video. I like how you do your homework to solve the problems that you encounter during the jobs you do. And how you ask for help if you don't have all the answers. Great job. Stay safe.
I love challenges and I really enjoyed learning new things
@@Concretewiththehauses In any industry, if you are not learning, you are probably going backwards, and there is always more to learn.
I like in golden Colorado and knew the answer to your expansive soil question. We have it up and down the front range as there is much clay in the soil. Builders in homes out here have resorted to NOT pouring basement floors but they hang a joist style floor in many homes (most of the homes out here have basements, unlike some other areas as our water table is much lower). We also must build floating walls when finishing a basement or any walls on top of concrete (look up floating walls, and they aren’t to difficult but they are SUPER important so you don’t destroy a home).
Good video Tom, thanks
Very interesting the different techniques
Nice repair job 👍 Good info on the fill they used back in tha day !! Hats off to all of yall !! :)
It happens, most often contractor error, did all you could.
I enjoyed the video ,nothing like somebody talking incessantly and showing very little of the actual work done
Hi Tom, After WWII a lot of brick homes were built in the Pittsburgh area, many used the J&L slag from the pile along the Parkway North. A lot of people used the slag because it was cheap as opposed to 2-B washed gravel. Eight years or so later the foundation blocks began deteriorating Requiring the house to be lifted everything removed and new block foundation installed. The ground was with the slag interacted with the concrete eating each out!!
Wow, that is amazing. Imagine the price tag on all of that.
Nice work, Tom, great video!👍🏻
Thanks! 👍
Awesome repair work!
Good analysis, expandable soil is a real pain to have under big structures.
I was just going to say but you said it, drainage. Spot on Tom!
Maybe they should cut a ditch in the back of the building facing the hillside?
Tom thanks for the video love it and you guy,s work very hard .
Thanks for watching!
I'm from the Sacramento area. The Sacramento Valley is an ancient area of yearly flooding from the rivers coming down to the valley. We have a lot of expandable soil here. An old timer taught me a trick to drill post holes in this type of earth and fill with 3/4" crushed stone and cover the holes with sheetrock. Then more crushed stone on top to allow the subbase to expand and contract without heaving. Of course if you have water migration you need to correct it by digging French drains around the perimeter of the building and route the water away. Hope this is helpful.
Amazing figuring things out to make projects work. I love it. Thanks.
Good input from your viewers. A lot of old pros who knew the source of the heaving immediately. Could be worse if the soil is toxic.
There are definitely a lot of good comments
Working indoors even for a couple days (especially in a factory setting) makes me miss the outdoors. I can’t imagine working everyday in there. Nice work!
Tell me about it
Underground coalmining in WV made part of 2 lane road heave up , rock-dust came in white bags like the ones in that warehouse , You and your crew did good job fixing the floor
Thanks for the info
I hydro excavate every day here in Colorado Springs. We have a lot of different soils here. I dug a 22 ft deep 4ft diameter hole and it was all sand. Other spots we have clay, sandstone and tons of river rock and cobble.
Good morning everyone from
Virginia Beach…very interesting video. Thanks again for sharing. Catch ya on the next one
Have a Day
Thanks, you too!
Amother awesome job Tom you sure know your concrete i so much enjoy watching you channell
Thanks 👍
We used to get mill service slag down here from Weirton Steel. Lots of iron in it which made it heavy and pack really hard. I was always told it “off gases” which wouldn’t let you pour concrete over it because it would heave the concrete.
The only thing I remember was cured slag, and even that had a little bit of a smell to it, but it didn’t stay around very long I want to say very early 80s
I have seen the same thing happen before. During construction, a access road is built thru the site. Many times fly ash is added early into the ground to dry up areas that traffic has pumped up moisture. Most of the time the area that was used as a access road will hump up during the curing time after the concrete is poured. It looked to me like the heaving of the concrete was uniform and in a straight line from end to end of the building. The access road thru the building would not have the same substrate as the rest of the building.
What a mess
That is an interesting piece of information, I have a similar situation in an equipment garage on the farm.
Hope it helps
Definitely a Five Star presentation. Thanks.
Our pleasure!
I love watching true professional work doing it the right way
Thanks
My dad used to do Diamond drilling to test soil before large buildings or roads and bridges before they were built. Was interesting to learn this from him
I’m looking forward to learning more
Tom, this is about some past pours. On the steps I notice you set your form boards at height of slab. When I did steps I ripped the bottom of the board at a 45 degree angle so that I could trowel right to the step. When I pulled the form there wasn’t anything to trowel out. Of course, we let things get a bit dryer first.
What is the 'slag' made from? I understand the company owner is leasing the building and isn't going to pay out any more than necessary. This really reminded me of my 9.5 years in construction. When we had bad weather they would try to find work inside for us. We were bricklayers, but we did many different jobs inside. Better than signing up. Less than 32 hours, we would sign up for temporary unemployment. Wasn't a full week pay, but better than no pay. You pointing out the dried/frozen mudd in your skid loader, reminds me also if jobsites. The brick crew was on site when it was fresh. Just graded dirt w a concrete footer. Any amount of water makes a muddy mess on everything! So I feel for you, it's a day to day problem when working on new jobsites. So many of us can honestly say, "I hate mudd!" I did remember y'all being there the first time. Another great video in the books! Thanks Tom.👍🙏❤🇺🇸🇺🇸
Thanks Keith it’s always a struggle working in the winter
I've been watching a couple of your videos, I first ran into concrete work the summer I was 14 when my mother and I sold our house to a family friend. The house was...expired let's say.
I helped them tear down the old and build the new house that spring/summer/autumn of 1975. It was a skinny lot with septic so we had to move a whole lot of cement the old fashioned way, the basement pour was 3 wheelbarrows and 6 suckers including myself.
Fast forward and passing some other jobs I helped with including converting a Michigan cellar into a basement by dropping the basement and foundation a foot... I found myself in Colorado Springs in the summer of 1982, for some reason they didn't want to hire people from Michigan so I found myself going from building site to building site( they were building a lot of sub-divisions/homes/businesses ) pretty much doing a tiny bit of clean-up and a lot of wheelbarrowing cement across a 2x4 to a foundation or to the block masons.
After a summer of that and still no job prospects I joined the army October of 82.
I wonder how those houses and foundations lasted.
Hard work but I enjoyed my adventure, and made enough to get by for awhile.
Enjoyed the video and lesson on soil and the professional way you conduct buisness.
Well done sir!!
Thanks
I'm sure I'm not the only one that can do without the loud music
Nothing wrong having that "go to expertise" makes you and your business more diversified and profitable. And that's the bottom line. Always enjoy and look forward to seeing your videos.
Thanks
That happens my sister garage had the same problem,sections of the concret poping up
Great video ! Never heard of this problem!
Thanks
When you're taking samples of the sub base like you did, try using a cordless SDS on hammer only mode with a 2 inch wide spade bit, it'll give you a lot more control than a digging bar and should let you get a less contaminated sample.
We always called it Flyash. It does have expansive qualities as well as some trace environmental issues. Good content. Thx
Thank you
Tom, that is funny you say that about the geographical changes around it may be causing it to show up now. I was thinking the same exact thing at the beginning of the video. You know how much the area has changed in the last 20 years. No retention pond is going to stop all the water going to where it wants to. I don't know here the plant is but I do know the general vicinity, and all the water flows to the lowest spot. I really love your videos, man. I get something out of each and every one. Thank you for the entertainment and brain racking.
You are very welcome. Thanks.
Tom we call them " job security ". Great job as always!
Thanks
as a retired production forklift operator, a big thank you!
You are welcome
While you might have some expansive clays in there, the culprit is likely the slag itself. When moisture moves into areas of slag backfill it causes it to corrode and the corrosion causes significant expansion.
Good work!
Thanks!
I used to work for a construction company that did the exact same type of work you are doing in factories. Instead of breaking the concrete up,we used to cut the floor in 3'x3' and or 4'x4' slabs and remove the pieces with a skid-steer with fork attachments. Then used the typical bucket for final clean up. We found it was much quicker and cleaner. Every job is different, just sharing my experience with you.
I’ve seen that skid steer attachment in operation. Clamps large cut junks in pieces as you described. Tom might even have one. I’m guessing his concrete cutter might be limited in cutting depth. Anyway this crew is on it as always. There’s another CZcams (Gate City Foundation) channel who does some concrete removal using the method you described. I’m amazed how much I’ve learned about concrete. Until recently I had little understanding of the technology, planning & precision work and pride.
@@MikeZMonroe Nothing hydraulic. Just regular forks, the same as on a forklift.
That sounds like a lot of salt cutting definitely need a bigger saw
Very interesting problem in that building.
I'm from Australia and have done more concreting than I like to remember. Your finishing was second to none.
We also have expandable soils or as we say highly reactive clays. They are generally black cracking soils.
Many foundations and house slabs have broken in half on these soils.
We use pre fabricated mesh in slabs and footings in Australia on a lot smaller grid.
Every area seems to have this problem
The worst footing I had to date and it had to be dug by hand was Delaware. I used the spade bit on the jackhammer. There was no access for equipment.
Does not sound fun
Bentonite in Colorado is the one I’m most curious about. I know basement walls have to be hung from the ceiling joists or walls and are never supposed to be anchored to floor. I’m in Minnesota where basements are a guarantee in every home we just bolt down our bottom plates. We have frost heave but nothing in the ground that heaves. Just rocks under soil here.
I have run into this problem before. The way I delt with the problem was I used hog wire and 5/8 rebar. Now I did do this job in New Mexico where the desert meets mountains. There the ground moves a lot. The first thing we had to do was remove around three feet of soil and put it back four inches at a time. Compacting it all the way back to grade. I made a rebar gride of 12" by 12" through out the whole floor. Next I put down four inch square hog wire on top of the rebar. When we did the pour, we pulled the hog wire up into the slab. So far this has helped the slab stay intact. Twelve years later it is still in place with no cracks. by the way we also added two extra inches of concrete to the slab. In the fifties people didn't do soil test or go thick with the product. Slump makes a big difference when put down the product. Dryer is better is some cases
Interesting thanks
Great video. Should tape seams. Should double that 6 mil or use 10+ mil vapor barrier. French drain around building may be considered to catch water.
Ohh shit tell joe he better get a mini excavator for that expandable soil
In our area, they would use fly ash when pouring sidewalks. They humped it up in the middle of the sidewalk so that they didn't have to use as much concrete. Then the sidewalk would crack down the middle. I found some that the concrete was less than 2" thick in the middle, 4" thick on the sides. They saved money and it looked okay when they left
Crazy
Professor Tom.
Thanks for the video
My pleasure!
They could do with a good drainage system at the side of that building where the hill is, might remedy this for the future
Tom… the obverse can also happen. If the expandable soil was wet (expanded) when the building was constructed, then a lowering of the water table could have caused the problem. The area around the perimeter of the building could have a lowered water table for some reason and the soil settled. Here in Wisconsin, it is quite common to have level manholes in the winter and they turn into bumps in the summer. Here it is frost raising the roadway and the manhole doesn’t get frost under them. A similar thing happens with the expandable soils. The “draining” of the perimeter could be weather caused or somebody may have just installed an underground utility and inadvertently created a French drain and over the years the water table lowered a bit.
Super insightful comment. In reading other comments there’s a wealth of very knowledgeable people watching Tom who respectfully comment as they really technically know there $hit.
You’re right, that sounds like it could happen
This is my thought too. Add in the fact, they are stacking heavy materials around the exterior of the building, that adds weight on the building foundation. The building is settling slightly.
I think it's a mix of they really believed in the substrate equally to what was readily available.
Awesome work!
Thanks a lot!
The water run off is always a question on the out side perimeter of structure and if your in a frost zone makes all the difference
I worked on a house where the basement floor heaved, poor drainage, no space heater, fhakin cold weather. Bad combo !!!
Floor split down the middle and lifted almost 3” pushing the lally columns up too. After thawing, the carpenters had to cut an 1-1/2” off most of the columns. The floor of course never completely settled and had a good 1/2” canyon the length of the house.
Another house,luckily only had 3’ of ice in the basement 😬 didn’t hurt the floor or house. Didn’t need a step ladder to rough in the plumbing and heat piping .
That sounds nasty
I've been doing a lot of work around Philadelphia. That base is absolutely everywhere here as general fill.
Be careful,lots of drainage
Well pits for lowering the water table, sump pump to discharge.
Wellpoint soil drying...
As you looked for answers to your questions regarding the possible cause (s) of the heaving, you took us along on an interesting, informative video.
Thanks
Its funny, as soon as the truck shows up it kind of looks like a pack of dogs on a three legged cat!!
That’s what it feels like sometimes
Add deep perimeter French drains to stop water (from roof and groundwater) migration under the slab.
So u just use 8s in it ass the way up (8s are 3/4 minus limestone w very minimal finer stuff, just enough to compact)
act u want rough edges on a pad. itill help new poured concrete to grip as it forms.
I was taught that when repairing a slab, like this, to undercut the existing/remaining slab carefully and the new concrete acts as a foot or ledge to support the old so that the two slabs don't part company or the edge of the old/remaining slab cracks as it's not so well supported.
Really nice job , good team, well done guys
Thanks
Do you like using a vibratory blade type float on a job like this, if not why not.Thanks.
Great Work 💪👍
Thanks 🔥
The best way to approach this type of job is to get the client to engage a suitably qualified engineer to do the investigation and to design the remedy and to supervise and inspect your work .
This way you are just doing what the client requested and the engineering risk is carried by the client and their engineer and not you .
Thanks for sharing
My pleasure
Good morning from Clemson, South Carolina 🐅
Morning!
Hey, we use spray foam to fill in a test hole temp.
Years ago l put in a service under paved drive way that had slage under it. And it was put there to stabilize the farm soil under it. With out it they claim that pavement would unulate when wet and driven over it.
It’s interesting the tenant is responsible for a pre existing condition under the guise of maintenance. Luckily we don’t deal with moisture conditions in soil that can cause issue’s around here. Good video.
Nice video!
Thanks!
Coal fired power plants sold that in my area in the 70's to contractors for fill. Coal ash is the mineralized residue left over from burning coal to generate electricity. It's actually a collection of different types of materials, called coal combustion products or coal combustion residuals: fly ash, flue gas desulfurization products, bottom ash, and boiler slag.
Good info
With EPA requirements lime is added when burning bituminous coal so it makes a good candidate for making concrete.
that guy with board screed is kinda magical😄👍
Thanks,
in the UK we have had the same sort of thing in house's after they used ash slag from making coke in the day we had to dig the lot out some times up to 5 foot deep
Wow, pricey
i worked at kaiser steel in fontana california an there is no mitaken the smell of mill slag. i think a 6 inch slab is what should have been in the building with rebar!! tom i feel confident that it will be a strong fix!!
Thanks
Yeah, winter never really quite got here.
minor geological assessments are a must!... now days...structures are being built on old land fills and reclaimed land....
What I find astounding is that the user of the warehouse and not the proprietor, is responsible for the maintenance of the building. Here in the UK it is the proprietor that is responsible for the upkeep, though a number of bad owners don't comply with this ethos.
It's been my experience that finishing isn't hard but you do have to have "the touch". But I've not stayed at a "Holiday Inn" recently.
Quick idea
That works real well,
Without a fault..
Spray adhesive for poly
Roll 4 foot back spray it
Spry 4 foot laying there and lay on top of each other, 100 percent water tight, and makes a full sheet continues.
Smooth finish to stop wear on fork lift tiers
Inserting 1/8th plywood into sawcuts will prevent spalling to existing concrete while you break up and remove existing concrete.
Good idea
the crap they used in the 60s is now used to seal wells ponds lakes and anything that needs a high pressure expansion. can expand 3 times its volume.
I'm betting if you check outside around the building the drainage has changed and the waters not getting away from the building because this would have been a problem long ago.
This happens often gravel added outside / inconvenient drainage ditch closed up / building added next door dumping water .
I think you’re right
Have you ever worked with foam glass aggregate? I wouldn't expect it to be affected by water at all.
If ground water is an issue, Geofoam under the concrete makes a great support and liquid barrier.
The other issue you need to be aware of is if increased moisture levels caused the soil to raise...what will happen if you enter a very dry period where the moisture will decrease and the underlying soils will shrink. I have personally dealt with numerous events where floors heaved because of a broken water line in expansive soils. To correct that the concrete that is replaced must be capable of fully supporting the floor with zero support underneath (hollow) making it essentially a bridge...something to consider.
Interesting. That was learn for the day.
Thanks
Had a client that after we got to talking, he said he had a career of building mega warehouses. The thing that stuck out to me was that he never used rebar. He said Slabs over 7” thick didn’t need them. If the forklifts started to have issues or the floor started to crack they’d cut it out in 15’ sections and repour. He said his building were acres big. Interesting concept.
I can understand that on the floor that size
We always called it expansive clay, add water to it gets soft and expands, remove water it shrinks, gets hard and cracks.
Tom should put you in his Rolodex for road related questions (you probably already are). Enjoy your channel Mike, stay safe and have a day!
I’m surprised to see how common this is
We have had good luck double cutting all pavement for removal. Seems to really help with keeping the edges from spalling.
Companies I have worked for always inserted strips of 1/8th plywood in sawcuts to prevent spalling on existing concrete. Works a treat as long as you leave it in until spoil is excavated.
Inserting 1/8th plywood into sawcuts will prevent spalling.
I have a Cut Saw like that , But it's a Target with a 13 HP Robin .
Nice saw
Are you going to drill into existing slab? Using greased dowels for movement issues?