Dealing with Anxiety - Back to Basic Baduk
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- A lot of players sooner or later get anxious about playing go. Let's explore that a bit.
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dwyrin is a full time U.S Go player and teacher - Zábava
I found this therapeutic actually. I don’t have go anxiety, just regular anxiety. Hearing it broken down like this was actually really helpful haha.
"you might be the type to really care about what other people think"
Uh oh, you found me. For me, it stems from the fear that someone might "find out" that I'm not actually worthy of my rank. It's probably something similar to imposter syndrome.
Yeah, I got called out hard on that one. 😓😂
Coming second in a game of Go just means that your opponent has been kind enough to provide you with a learning opportunity.
"Coming second" :') that's a really nice way of putting it! Maybe it can reduce anxiety as well... "I didn't lose, I just came second"
Many people are too used to having dopamine easy buttons (hi, social media) to boost their self worth. When those people attempt something like Go, they have no emotional defenses against the hardships of being bad at something, and having to "lose" to another human being.
Yes, people are better than you at something. Yes, you will lose games.
For those willing to grow and change, the cure is to play *more*, not less. Play, play, play. Play often. Play frequently.
Sadly, it is easier for more people to succumb to their delicate emotional state and to become avoidant instead. Back to those easy buttons. Surviving the trials and tribulations of Go is not an easy path.
I am absolutely guilty of having go-playing anxiety. I haven't played a game in months because of it. Thank you for putting this video out, I'm going to listen to it a few more times and hopefully help motivate myself.
What helps me, is to just play for the enjoyment. And being happy for my opponent when they make a good kill on me. ... that second part is the best honestly. ... the games that happens to me (opponent giving me a compliment) are like that rare occasions a beautiful girl smiles at you in the streets :)
For me personally, I have to constantly remind myself that each game is teaching me something. But, I'm scared that if I lose a game, then my whole day will be ruined. ;-;
Frekin same
Keep in mind that a loss is just as valuable if not more valuable than a win
Try, if you do lose, playing until you win. It might help. Though your rank may fluctuate a bit more, as long as you review the games a bit, you should be constantly improving!
Lose on purpose until losing it's not scary anymore. Like let's say there's a horror movie that scares you a lot. What would happen if you see it every day on a year?
The problem is the public school system and society in general. You are punished for making mistakes instead of being taught to learn from them. Typically most people will be afraid of making mistakes in general and may vary from subject to subject. Actually surprised how level headed you are. I have a great deal more respect for you after hearing your take on losing.
This is a byproduct of everyone gets a trophy culture. It sets expectations that you should always win as long as you put in the effort. Old post I know.
I'm not sure if "anxious" is the right word, but as an SDK I can attest that there's one particular way that I absolutely hate to lose (and when a game is going in that direction it stresses me greatly). Explicitly, sometimes my opponent just secures an obviously big moyo and it's just too late forme to significantly reduce/invade anything. When that happens I tend to lose my cool and feel great pressure with every move to try to make something happen. I know, I know, we're not supposed to let it get to that point- but easier said than done! (Side note: I'm super cool when I lose a close game or when I lose because I left too many weak groups and one of them was eventually surrounded).
I play with players ranked higher than me so I'm not too anxious about losing and play my best. Playing against an equal rated player has me sweating bullets
Funny, for me it is the other way around. Playing vs equal or worse ranks i am super confident (and win mostly), as soon as I match a higher rank I think they will punish all my plays and I get extremely passive
I also feel playing online is more anxiety inducing than playing on a real board. Something to do with not being able to eyeball your anonymous opponent is stressful to me. Don’t know why exactly.
It's not only that it's _natural_ to lose 50% of the games, it is by _design_ of the ranking system that you lose 50% of the games. The ranking system is made, so that you play against players of the same strength. So of course you will lose 50% of those games... =)
That is the crazy thing. Even if you improve, it stays that way. I feel in other games, especially overwatch (or sc2 as mentioned in the video) the feeling is even worse, because other players (teammates) are involved
This was a really interesting topic for a video. Very helpful. I didn't use to have any anxiety playing Baduk. And then some stuff happened in my life that put me in a pretty deep depression. During that time I threw myself at Baduk in the most unhealthy way possible. The kind of stuff where I would rush through a game, lose horrifically, and immediately start a new game, no reviewing. It got to the point where Baduk was fueling my depression and got mixed up in it.
I took a long break at that point, something like half a year.
A couple of interesting things happened. When I came back, I immediately started ranking up, even past where I was before the depression. I had, in that time, still gotten better.
The other thing is I now have bad anxiety when playing games. Or rather, when I'm going to go play. My stomach drops just thinking about it. Very strange and frustrating feeling. But I am slowly healing from it.
For me what helps the most is reminding myself that it is a game, I'm only here to have fun, win or lose. And I only play when I feel like it. I don't force myself.
Thanks for this talk Dwyrin! Been definitely victim to playing anxiety, where one loss has me tilted and I don't play for a few days. It's comforting to know there are many players that feel the same.
I feel like I have to watch that video every time before I play.
I find that stepping away from the board when frustrated after losing and taking some time to analyse where I went wrong is lot less anxiety inducing than playing another game when tilted.
It still amazes me how you can talk about these things and still play an excellent game. Even intentionally allowing the opponent to run away! It simply shows the power of your builtin 2000 core CPU with true multitasking capabilities :) Yes, if your head is not right, do not play. I think you also mentioned it before - if you lose 2 or 3 games in a row, do not play on that site for the rest of the day. If you lose on 2 or 3 sites in a row, take a break for the day. Keep up the good work!
For me, the anxiety comes from feeling stuck and not knowing how to improve. I review all of my games and AI will show me where I made mistakes, but I feel like I don't know how to apply these to my next games to do better. I don't mind losing games, but it gets discouraging when it feels like I'm not learning from them
Its also good to know where your skill cap is. Like dwyrin mentioned sc2. I was playing gold mostly, when i put effort in (regular playing, learning some „joseki“/strategies) I got plat. Maybe, if I went hardcore I might have gone diamind. Maybe. But never masters. No way. ... so what is it in go? Am I good enough for dan? Pretty sure not in the next 10 years tbh. But that is ok
A cure I found is to play on lots of different servers, treating some lightly. The servers where I don't care as much about my rank are where I go if I feel anxious.
I like this idea of doing an informational video like this while doing a basics game
This certainly is a factor in all competitive games, where you are against one other person, one wins and one loses. For example in Starcraft, as you experienced, when it was called ladder anxiety, as it mainly cropped up when playing on the ranked ladder (i mainly played in Broodwar). Videos / articles like this helped a lot and I'm glad to see someone tackling the issue regarding Go as well.
Playing the entire game while not talking about the game and murdering absolutely everything!
Bro, I needed this. Been doing rank up, rank down cha-cha on Fox around 9~7k for a while. The last part was great for me.
Certainly your best motivational video so far. I've been checking your video before twitch even existed on livestream. I believe you were playing 6D at the time, tho this may not be the same 6D level from before as of today. Your progress is awesome and your perspective on "winning VS loosing" and anxiety work in many area of life.
Thank you Dwyrin! Your video helped me realise that I've been worrying about my rank a bit too much. Sometimes lately I even avoid playing other people because I get the anxiety of losing. Whenever I win a game I stop playing for days, I guess it's because I want my most recent games to be victorious. I didn't really understood why I get this anxious when I played but after watching your video I now know. This will help me enjoy playing for the sake of playing and not for the sake of winning.
Thanks for this! I really need to get over my fear that I'm wasting the time of the person playing me with my horrible Go skills. 😬 Definitely in that "afraid of what others are thinking" camp, but more just wrestling with the feeling that they're spending the whole game like, "Dude, just resign already so I can go play a real game" and I'm obliviously clicking along. I know it's not a thing (I mainly play my own rank, more or less, so we're all that bad, lol). But damn that insecurity is hard to shake. But this was helpful, thanks!
失敗はせ成功のもと= failure is the root of success.
best video yet
Needed to rewatch. I feel like I'll come back to this one often, lol.
I needed that, thank you.
Thanks, Dwyrin. Your videos are really helful.
This is a really interesting conversation for me because I have generalized anxiety, BUT not really about go. In fact, go is something I often do to calm down. In fact, the most frustrating thing about go for me is that I get fatigued after a game or two--if it weren't for that I would just go and chill all day!
But my theory about why it is relaxing for me is because it is a series of micro-anxieties. I do get nervous about each move, each game, but it is quite manageable for me, and afterwards (if I am feeling particularly introspective) I feel like I have overcome my anxiety, even if it is in the narrow context of go. And if I remember that small victory, it helps me in future battles against bigger anxieties.
I have severe ladder/rank anxiety and the goals of reaching a certain rank after a certain amount of time is really impacting me. If I know I'm only one win away from ranking up, I would lie awake the whole night before the day where I was going to play that one rank up game. Before I start a ranked game in general, no matter if a rank-up is close, my heart starts racing and I get shaky hands because I'm so anxious about potentially ranking down and thus not reaching my goal in time. And then there are the days, like yesterday, where I have a lot of free time and I played 20 games in one sitting and lost 15 of them. Its like a spiral of dispair. As a result, I lost the rank progress of about 2 months. Before that session, I was one win away from reaching the goal I worked towards a whole year, but now it is unreachable.
So my anxiety is not about losing so much as it is about not improving, as in not ranking up.
Earlier this year, the ranking system on OGS was changed. Players who had had sleepless months over “one win to SDK” found that they had retroactively roamed the ranks from 5k-9k.
This is in a system with a sound basis in statistics (Glicko). When you look at Fox with its “X games to rank up”, the ranks will be much more volatile and not really indicate your winning chances.
Rank is really just a number. On one hand, it's a best-effort estimate of strength, but on the other, it's also a complete joke. Certainly nothing to obsess over.
Your rank does not define your game. You can play your favorite joseki at 20k just the same as at 7d. If you never reach 19k, maybe you can just become a stronger 20k ;-)
@@ADmiralN1 I was one of them. I got from 14k to 9k (8.1k to be precise) and then stopped playing on OGS since I wanted to get my accounts in other servers to the same rank. I’m currently sitting at 7k Fox (close to rank up to 6k). But before I can call myself SDK I need to get my Pandanet account to 9k. And that’s where I’m struggling. Now I have thrown so many games, it will take months to get close to 9k again on Pandanet. That’s sad because I wanted to reach SDK within my first year of playing, but that year will be over in 2 weeks and that will be not enough to rank up to 9k for me.
Thank you for this video, I really needed this.
I tend to only feel anxious when under time pressure, or when I see a new joseki.
It’s playing against a human that makes me anxious.
Me too. Specifically playing against a human of my strength.
Thank you for this video. It was very inspirational.
The talk about anxiety was nice, but where are these 4 kyus when I get on ogs?
I was thinking the same thing. After mulling it over for a while, however, I developed a theory. I think when people see that someone is at their rank or lower, they may become very confident of their moves and play with a type of energy that they think is appropriate. In other words, they're not worried about playing the best moves; they're just happily playing moves that they know will be hard for their opponent to stop at that level.
Since Dwyrin is sandbagging (albeit for a noble educational cause), they get thrown off after they realize their opponent has completely outplayed them. At that point they just completely tilt, or go for desperate lunges that stronger players know exactly how to punish.
For me, a 4 kyu is a tough opponent and I would never expect one to try to crawl on the first line when it clearly doesn't work. But they might do it to try to psych me out if a bit of reading is necessary and they'll lose anyway.
Thanks, very helpful!
Thanks, I REALLY needed that! And you’re the first go streamer I’ve seen talking about anxiety like this, even though it’s a really common issue. Have you considered something like a ‘learning from losing’ basics series? Like getting super experimental to get over the yips or something?
Great video I was needing it
I appreciate this a lot
Thanks for addressing this very important topic!
Thanks Batts- listening to this made me finally start playing on Fox. First game I won because they give me the entire center and couldn't reduce or play endgame. So, not scary at all.
Thank you very much for the talk. I find myself not playing games often for this or that reason (not real reasons) and just do something else, even though on the knowledge level I understand and completely agree with every point you make. And yet I keep avoiding games.
At this point I want to start participating in tournaments just to shortcut the hesitation. That way I'll definitely play games and win or lose, but will play just because somebody is waiting for me to be there on time and do my best.
i sense a great deal of empathy for frustrated players
Thanks for that!
At 20:57, while it's a dead shape, the corner is technically alive. He plays Q1, if you answer P1 it connects on the first line to O3, or else he gets sente and is alive, while if you answer P2, he can connects on the first line to E2, thereby losing the game. But alive. Sort of what happened in the game, except BEFORE he allowed you to throw in.
You review it at 36:28. Q1 is not a good move, but it is alive.
Not really: when he plays Q1, black answers R1 and white cannot connect the stone all the way to E2 - he will be caught, like in the game and white still only has one eye in the corner.
Dat was great!
yep great video- what really helped my anxiety is having more than one account. At first I invested too much time and worry on that one account as it was my highest- so when I lost rank I stressed, and when I won I was too happy. Now I don't freak out loosing rank as I can play somewhere else. I play on three different servers including foxy- this also helps with your skills as people play differently-espically foxy where they 3-3 u early- I can take that experience to OGS. I might loose one game on OGS- pop over onto pandanet and play again. And as they say- fail, but fail better.
12:20 I think you mean "her" name - Asaringo is Ueno Asami.
I know because I chose her as my "fox pro" to study just few days ago.
Apparently, not the best choice.
Thanks for this video. I had no idea go anxiety was actutally a frequent issue. For me the anxiety is mostly about playing humans through internet. I have zero anxiety playing humans on a real board. I guess it might have something to do with the whole ranking system but I'm not even sure. Maybe it's the fact that when we lose on an internet game we are alone and it might be difficult to know what went wrong. With another player there is usually a game review after, even if informal, which makes me feel that I'm getting real progress from my mistakes.
Any plans on taking your Go IRL after covid? That's where the real anxiety manifests for me.
I was rank anxious: after each game I went to my profile page to check improvements. Happy to rank up, sad to rank down. Questioning about rank algorithm reliability... then I went tired of that.
On OGS I went to my settings and checked "hide ranks" option. My go player life quality instantly improved! 😄
Now I don't know if my opponent is supposedly weaker or stronger. I just play my best and take it as it comes.
That’s a great approach. Play to play.
In my case is not really being anxious, it's getting really really annoyed by myself throwing yet another game and stewing in the 'knowledge' that I would be easy 1D by now if I only could stop playing the self-atari tesugi... Etc. It's mostly a false sense of entitlementment and lack of patients
So I often feel miserable after a thrown game...
Really liked the video. I have been working on playing more to improve again and the board anxiety is real. I think you just missed that one that makes you play too fast :P (kind of related to the bad move one, maybe?)
I get horrible ladder anxiety, but otb doesn't seem to cause it at all
Just the process of starting it, is probably the most difficult. Once its under way, I can keep my nerves together. But I dont take a game lightly, Its still a big deal to me even at 1kyu.
Rather than Go anxiety, to me and I think many others, it's more like Go sloth.
Since the game is so deep and interesting to us, it's hard to play casually. Every game engages us intellectually, to the limit of our ability. And that's very tiring.
#LosingIsFun
I can't play online bc I'm to anxious. I don't have a problem to play against AI or to play life or even on tournaments. But I cant play online.. and I don't know why I am so anxious there.. :(
I'm afraid of the potential I have
czcams.com/video/yNKoH84ioz0/video.html
I fall into the "only plays AI opponents now, stopped playing humans" anxiety category. The reason - as I played more and became more skilled, I noticed that human players tend to play moves they KNOW they shouldn't be able to get away with, but play them anyway in hoping their opponent (me) makes a major blunder in the subsequent sequence. You can say what you want about AI gameplay, but at least it's honest - and also keeps YOU honest. Of course I hope to one day go back to playing humans, someday lol.
That's human nature, most of us always want to hope that something happens. When it works, ppl feel happy like they got away with it, when it doesn't they probably think "yeah I thought so" but I think this happens everywhere at any ranking, even in most of batts's games. It happens when we get desperate, and sometimes that feeling proves that you really don't want to lose, either because you're petty or you really want to improve in the game. And why not? If the opponent falls for it, that means they got too complacent. That in of itself could be seen as a trick play. There's nothing wrong with falling for a trick play. But we should accept it and be careful next time (after raging for like half an hour abt it XD)
Hope you make your human comeback soon!👍
How do you know what they know? Valid moves are valid. *Prove* them wrong. If you lose, so what? Do better next time.
Literally all other sites have more accurate ratings than OGS IMO.
Does OGS feel like it has weaker players on average, and that’s why you show the stout accounts on fox? Lol also gave every one a rank boost (so everyone has a weird rank seemingly from someone else) so a loss or a win may feel odd there.
22:05 I of course have but I’m starting to think that every time I’m frustrated and making bad moves it’s because my opponent is miles better than me. White here is clearly frustrated and probably recognizes that they are bad moves. At this point as black I would have resigned (since I’m not really 4k) else you are just risking somebody’s interest in the game (at least temporarily).
Also not much commentary this game 😢
I don't think it is his (or anyone's) duty to take someone else's hypothetical/projected emotional state into account and to proactively resign on their behalf.
@@helxis Well I did say “I would have resigned”. But it can’t be that far out to say that’s a likely consequence, no? I mean at the least you make someone frustrated if you are miles stronger than them or use an AI. The expectation is that you are around a similar level. If anything that would create anxiety for me. Sometimes I’ve gone back and forth between winning to taking a big loss. I end up getting super frustrated because in some games it’s obvious that my opponent has a clear advantage. Watching this game black is able to take advantage of white’s mistakes without a doubt and white is helpless because black’s skill is far superior. White continues playing in the hope that they can turn it around but every attempt to do something creates growing frustration and exacerbates their problems fueling bad move after bad move (possibly continuing into future games). I enjoy these kinds of videos but I’ve been in the place of white before, which is why I said what I said. (Also specifically because this video is about anxiety).
@@english-dl9vo Sometimes you have a bad game and these things happen. If you can't weather that, you're going to have a hard time with this game.
Okay, but real talk dwyrin... will you REALLY always be an amateur? I don't think the US has an age limit for becoming pro, you just gotta win a tournament.
nope. always ama
@@dwyrin what happens once you hit 9d ama? Is there anywhere left to go?