Should Hans Niemann's Career End?
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- čas přidán 2. 10. 2022
- Check out Ben's Chessable courses here! www.chessable.com/author/BenF... [09-29-2022] Clip with GM Ben Finegold
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"If I had to choose who to have dinner with, I would choose Magnus. Now he probably wouldn't show up, but I don't mind eating by myself." Lol what a legend
Did Magnus ruin Han's life, did Han's ruin Han's life, or did Han's life not get ruined? tune in next week.
My favourite was the guy in chat who said, "Maybe Magnus would show up, eat one bite, and leave" LOL
Lol
@@tjtennisicmroll2k i think Han´s life wont get ruined at the end, at least in chess
@@anosmianAcrimony If Magnus and Hans were competitive eaters xD
FIDE: "After careful deliberation, the committee has decided that both Magnus and Hans shall be put to death!"
Deathmatch!
More like have a game of chess boxing.
@@2DarkHorizon is it safe to box with a butt plug inserted?
Literally lol'd
Lol 😂
“What did you do when YOU were 19? You pled the 5th!” Good line, Ben!
This cheating drama has honestly made me more of a Finegold fan, because I think Ben has consistently had the most honest and level-headed opinion on the situation of any major content-creator.
I agree. He is the only one not ignoring any of the facts to support his side.
Question. My understanding of the FIDE code of ethics states that accusing someone of cheating is a violation of the code of ethics and rules of fair play. Does this mean that technically everyone that is a FIDE member making accusations of cheating is at risk of disciplinary action?
@@evelybeck8181 I think Ben mentioned this specifically in another video that FIDE should come down on Magnus for this.
Id say levy is pretty fair in his recounting and not coming to conclusions. If anything I would say Rosen has been petty level headed as usual, Ben is fair and honest but he has a pointed sharp delivery style
wrong, from the very beginning ben has gone into overdrive putting in overtime to defend all cheaters by acting like a steretoypical defense attourney from the tribe. We all know Hans is a cheater.
So good to see the Grandmaster’s CZcams channel doing well
Here's an angle you didn't seem to cover during this video: as Hans cheated online on prize tournaments, he stole opportunities from other professional chess players and as he cheated and his rank raised, it granted him spots on OTB tournaments as well. So, maybe if he hadn't cheated online, he wouldn't even been able to play in person against Magnus in that tournament. And then when you know someone has a pattern of cheating, it gets harder not to be suspicious all the time, which makes things more complicated, because then something he does that doesn't seem natural, it might throw off another player thinking he might be cheating. Also, other players might think it's not fair for him to be there because his rating might be fabricated, and could decide they don't want to play him. So it is not easy to separate the online matches from the OTB matches.
Here's a handy little dictum: falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.
Yes! This is what I’ve been saying. If I’m a team playing In the super bowl vs a team that cheated in 50% of their games to get there, does it matter to me if they don’t cheat in my game? Probably not. Anybody can get lucky or play great and win a game, but it doesn’t make them world champions if they cheated to climb the ladder. Hell even Ben here can beat magnus on a good day…doesn’t mean he deserves what comes his way for doing it once if he shouldn’t be there in the first place
It's telling how many are quick to defend the online cheating. What's the line of thought here? "cheating is different if there is a reasonable expectation of not getting caught."? It's totally cracking me up that otherwise intelligent people cant understand the situation. To say he has 5 million dollars of other peoples money isn't a difficult argument to make (he is a fraud). Too many people think that given enough money any action becomes righteous.
@@markdierker4292 nobody is defending it. Although they are saying he did it as a kid so it shouldn't define his whole life
@@markdierker4292 who's defending it in this thread? 🤔
I want to see a double blind study on cheating. Have tournaments where there are people cheating and see how good cheating experts are at finding them.
I don't think you know what a double blind study is... xD
So the cheaters wouldn't even know if they were cheating or not 🤔
So technically OP can be right. If he's referring to the people playing the cheaters and the arbiters reviewing the games would both be blinded.
GM "cheating online is not a big deal." ME: "Bwaaaaaaaa????"
this dude is a clown
This is like saying eSports professionals, Dota LoL CSGO and others can cheat during a casual pub game but can't cheat on LAN tournaments.
Yeah I mean just rated games outside of tournaments I think it’s not a huge deal; yeah it sucks and I’d be mad if I played a cheater but it’s not “ban for life” type of thing. I do think cheating in a money tournament online deserves to throw the book at them (like Hans’ coach who got banned and got another chance like 3 times)
@@GK-ee7mw I'm not familiar with what rankings can do for you in chess, but if a certain rank allows you to play in certain tournaments, then yes it matters just as much as it matters as cheating in the money tournament itself.
@@GK-ee7mw No, it's a ban for life type of thing. Real life, online, no prize money, prize money, no title, title, casual or rated. You cheat once, you don't deserve to play ever.
Next video title: Should Hans wash his hands after using the toilet?
appreciate your take on it, thanks for the upload
Ben's comments on Miami are hilarious though.
Update: Yes
They should add Security measures and let Hans Play .
“I don’t mind eating by myself” it fucking shows
I’m glad GM Finegold straightened out the Hans situation once and for all
If he were my lecturer, I wouldn't have ever missed a class.
It’s refreshing to hear a thoughtful level headed take on this. Innocent until proven guilty. Right?
Guilty until proven innocent.
Thoughtful and level headed??? Did we watch the same video? He was wrong in so many ways.
Thought experiment: if Magnus accused Hikaru, how would all this look?
Hans was hated before…
If hans hadnt done things to be thought poorly of, he most likely wouldn't have been thought poorly. Similar to hikaru. If hikaru had a history of cheating, people would be more likely to think poorly of him.
The analogy kinda doesn't work unfortunately.. At the surface level, no actions included, it would probably come a lot more down to personal preference or existing evidence, and that wouldn't influence their decision as much yaknow
Neiman has demonstrated, for years, that he's very, very good at chess. But only Sometimes. He's erratic, which stands to reason considering his self-described intuitive and often ambitious (as opposed to risk-averse) style of play. He's also an admitted devotee of Carlsen, and so knows his moves and tactics perhaps better than anyone else's, and with the way Carlsen had been dismissive and condescending toward Neiman over the past few years, it only makes sense that the teenager would have been gunning for the Master - which is exactly what Neiman has claimed to be the case. He brought his A game, while Carlsen - by his own admission - played poorly in their Sinquefield game.
Yeah but the g3 nymzo line which Magnus has rarely ever played being the exact line he's prepared for, and if indeed he did, the subsequent analysis, do seem highly suspicious, you'll have to admit.
@@santiagomorales9129 Take a chill pill
@@phenax1144 take a common sense pill
@@Morphysince94 Man had one million question marks
The beads speak for themselves.
Ben, you consistently succeed in providing level headed and multifaceted opinions that I respect. Thank you for the upload.
In the game that Magnus lost, Hans played well but MC played that game rather poorly. In this singular instance that was the catalyst for all this ... the game on both sides of the equation looked pretty human. No weird or fantastic moves really ......
pretty sure its gone for a long time before that
Engine moves look boring
After the match he said he by coincidence looked at the exact same lines that very morning. He has still a problem explaining the line. Weird..
@@TheViking75 Everything Hans says is being picked apart now. Like many of us, what he meant to say is that he was noodling with similar variations. These lines are many but on the same theme. I played the Sicilian Dragon for years and could inevitably make the same statement about my pre-game prep after every game. Bearing in mind that I am not Magnus and would not want to be Hans right now. Whether he did or didn't is irrelevant. It's like someone accusing you of being a pedophile. Hans can never be "exonerated". ☺
@@DeuceGenius Maybe. Yet Magnus never says a word in several tournaments leading up to this game, and only gets "righteous" about it after he loses? It isn't like Hans went on to win any of these tournaments by the way. I am not defending Hans, just noting the inequity of the situation. ☺
Ben is talking about Hans everyday now! 😮
Unless he's proven totally guilty of OTB cheating, it'd be a missed opportunity to not let Hans play tourneys. Every sport needs a villain. I'd be willing to bet that Hans would be as big of a draw as Magnus, at least as long as he doesn't drop down to 2500 or something
Yes, he's like Darth Vader now!
@@kingcarisma Twisted by the dark side, young Niemann has become.
thats completely wrong in every way. tournaments get money by gaining sponsors, and no company is going to want to sponsor a tournament with a player whos suspected of cheating
@@grubbygrub8332 I'm sure they'd look the other way if it lined their pockets a bit better.
@kingcarisma except Vader was a badazz. Neimann is more of an Ewok.
0:03 those asymmetrical shoulder shrugs
whoever does the thumbnails for this channel is a genius lol
I think that every time I see a thumbnail from Finegold
Hi - I have watch your videos over the last two or three weeks. I remember you telling us about one or two player that you suspect they have cheated on tournaments.
What do you do when you loose that player? Or, what do you do when that player cheats and wins in the board near by?
Magnus could follow that way of yours. Or vice versa.
Hikaru did more to condemn Hans than Magnus did. Magnus made a statement, Hikaru made it a career.
Now Ben is making it a career too apparently, throwing out opinions and statistics with no evidence of his own. I trust Hikaru and Fabio and Nepo, who are all very measured in comparison to this blowhard approach.
@@Nietzschebot1 how has hikaru been measured about this LOL
@@2FadeMusic He's just angry cause he wants ben to accuse Hans of cheating.
As there is no reason whatsoever wrong for Ben to say until there is evidence no certainty can be determined, where the comment above he just calls him a blowhard cause he doesn't 'believe' without evidence.
@@Nietzschebot1 Trust isn't the issue. Accusing another GM of cheating over the board without proof is. Hikaru is guilty, more than Magnus, and FIDE needs to act accordingly.
@@2FadeMusic He hasn't called Hans a liitle "b=tch, for instance. He may have his opinions, but he uses the appropriate if-then statements. Talking bad about Hikaru is cool because he's popular, but at least he's relevant.
I watched Hikaru‘s video on the analysis saying Hans had many 100% and 90% games OTB (while basically no other super GM does). I wish Ben would address this more deeply than just “it didn’t happen” because the data analysis seemed pretty solid and showed some clear discrepancies for Hans vs basically all other GMs.
It's already been debunked quite widely. The methodology to check for cheating like this is flawed. The metric is not showing what people think it does. The metric in Chessbase can be manipulated with. The more engines you use to measure this metric the higher the likely number becomes and Hans games were analysed with many engines including some obscure ones and some named "Unknown". Because for each move it will try to see if it matches any potential engine, not for the whole game but in any move against any machine and then it's a match. You could write an engine that will always pick a move Hans made and then all Hans games would be 100%.
The anonymous (gambit-man) second hand (FM Yosha Iglesias) data Hikaru used is flawed and unreliable. I've checked many of Niemann's games using the same Chessbase Let's Check analysis and Stockfish 15, including the alleged ten 100% games, and got very different results. For example, four of the alleged 100% games came back as less than 100%, one of those alleged 100% games (round 2 of the 4th Sharjah Masters 2021) coming back as 82%. But if you find that shocking another of those alleged 100% games Niemann-Cornette (round 6 of the 7th Sunway Sitges 2020 game) gave an Engine/Game Correlation of White = 88%, Black = 78%.
Also the data used does no take into account long lines of opening theory, forced moves, known endgame strategies etc. Neither does it compare the correlation of both players. Then there's the question of sampling size. The Niemann sampling was taken from 360 games, which means that my analysis found one game in sixty to be 100%. The comparison data used by Hikaru was taken from a far smaller sample, sometimes as little as one or two but never more than twenty games.
@@someverycool4552 What about the correlation between ACPL (average centipawn loss) and STDACPL (Standard Deviation of ACPL) which for a sample of top players was found to be around 90+% when measured according to their ELO rating at the time yet for Hans (after 2018) proved to have very little correlation? Obviously one has to take these measures with a pinch of salt but the more one looks at the data the more red flags start to appear. This is how fraud detection works in the world of commerce. Everyone leaves footsteps.
@@sharonjuniorchess I saw ACPL analysis by a Brazilian data scientist just recently, but I haven't had too much time to look into it yet. Not sure if you are referring to that.
There were few things that I think should be improved, I think it had only 6 GMs, but they should automate the process and take Top 100 and see what the outliers are then. I couldn't tell if the players were cherry picked or not.
It's too early for me to claim anything based on that ACPL analysis.
There's also playing styles that could affect ACPL, for example aggressive risk taking probably or choosing novel, uncomfortable positions for both players strategically could mean higher ACPL.
Ben speaks for himself
Why is ben lumping naroditsky and hikaru together as people who just "look at the game with an engine and decide hans was cheating" Hikaru did that... Naroditsky had a much more nuanced take and didn't conclude hans was cheating.
Right, he kinda threw them under the bus there
Hans beat Magnus in 2 moves... The guy is a chess god
Did you mean cheater
Magnus Beated Hans in 2 moves. He crushed his entire career. At MAX Hans' career will be over in a month, dead and buried.
@@therocker3024 I argue his career is better then ever if they don't prove he cheated he will sky rocket literally everyone talking about it even ppl who don't play chess that's only good nothing bad about it but ppl have opinions when if they're wrong
@@johnnyboy5073 I got some news for you bud. It’s been confirmed that he cheated over 100 times.
@@Lunyore lol, youre really funny saying something so absurdly ridiculous. By whom has it been confirmed that he cheated over a 100 times? 😂
Fully agree with Ben. The FM Yoshi analysis fell apart immediately. Who would’ve thought when she started the “most damning evidence against Hans” video with “oh I just found out about this let’s check feature” was going to be inaccurate. Yea that video isn’t going to be riddled with errors.
As always Monsieur Finegold is on point
You've come so far since I was 7 watching your tutorials in chess club
@Zangief ☭ almost 20 dude. You clearly don't know what I'm referring to
I would definitely like a more comprehensive rebuttal to the multiple 100% games by Hans than “it didn’t happen.” That’s quite weak.
6:56 "If I had to have dinner with one of them, it's Magnus. Now, he wouldn't show up." No, he'd show up, eat one bite, and leave
Hey, you can read! 7:39 Comment by tonyrubak
@@KravMagoo This is the saddest day of my life
@@SockTaters If it happens again, you will be labeled a plagiarist for life, because once a plagiarist, always a plagiarist.
@@SockTaters FIDE has already launched an inquiry.
What is your explanation for Hans' poor analysis after Alireza game?
You know what? If you build a reputation as cheater, whenever you win your reputation will work against you. Truth hurts :)
I'm embarrassed to admit I don't play chess. But I LOVE your channel.
Magnus handled this poorly…. I couldn’t agree more. He should have brought some evidence or said he overreacted… which people would have thought was understandable since Hans cheated in the past….
Absolutely. He can't backtrack his bad assessment but people support magnus decision because he is World champion
@@santiagomorales9129 so far he is accusing someone without evidence …. Until he shows some, he has handled this poorly.
to you peoople, ''some evidence'' seems limited to a video of Hans having stockfish on his phone during the match or something. This is obviously not how cheating is fought
Hot Take: Hans and magnus were secretly dating, and Hans cheated on him with a stockbroker who specialized in fish/fishing industry.
First unbiased and logical analysis I hear. People are inverting the onus of proof to an insane level. Thanks
This guy is biased as hell and he comes off as stupid in most of what he says. “He lost 9 games so what kind of cheating is that?” Yea as if cheaters always cheat in 100% of games. The guy is an idiot.
Arent you literally commenting on a video with a 72-page report as proof?
Thanks Ben for sticking up for Niemann
He didn't, he even said he didn't like Niemann that much.
Hans accuracy dropped 10.6 points after security got stricter in the Sinquefield cup
He was under enormous pressure, what do you expect?
@@juliusebola9712 ?
In the interview after the game he lied, lied, then lied some more.
Who put pressure on him? Who went on the offencive? Did the lying sosiopathic cheater seem to be under enormous pressure? Then how the FCK could he make the same approach in the same _chair_ today???
HE LIED. THEN SECURITY WAS RAISED. THEN THE PROVEN CHEATER PLAYED WAY WORSE!
Does not prove anything. Apart from the fact that security hurts Hans more than pressure...
@@111076tom Pressure is put on him from pressure to perform. When Hans went up against magnus at first there is no pressure on him because its expected that he would lose. Then once he wins and theres accusations of cheating theres a lot more pressure to perform
@@xDAKPRODUCTIONSx well, he was the only one with pressure on him them? Seems like a cop out
@@karniskavva Hes a lower rated unproven player. For the players hes playing against its just another game. Even if they do lose people might just blame it on hans cheating so theres even less pressure for them to win.
Just imagine if Hans loses after new security measures. That would look really really bad after cheating accusations so he has to perform making it a lot of pressure on him
Your intros are always perfect.
Glug! Glug! Glug!
an old wiseman speak the truth! Respect. People tend to think it's black or white, but the fact is between black and white are millions of grey colors.
until someone decides to check your games using fritz 6....
Cheating in real life and cheating online is different says man online..
Think you're underestimating technology saying it's hard to cheat over the board.
No you are overestimating it, maybe DARPA has these smart contact lenses but they wouldn't lend cutting edge top secret tech to an ordinary player.
@@jackwilson5542 I'm sorry I you insinuating the only way to cheat over the board is alien technology or some advanced augmented reality HUD through contact lenses? Lmao oook bud. Nice counter argument. 👏
@@ajrowe5845 So again tell me the technology he might have used. (On 50 occasions with different security measures undetected that is) You are overestimating it, hence why I gave that argument.
@@jackwilson5542 You didn't give an argument. You just claimed most people don't have smart contact lenses so cheating Is impossible lol.
The only one of the two that we know for sure has cheated is Magnus. Throwing the game to Niemann at the Baer Cup was totally illegal and he did it in a way that left no deniability about whether he was trying to lose. FIDE rules explicitly describe result manipulation as cheating.
The only defense to this is that he threw the game as part of a protest, but if he did, it was an illegal protest. The Ethics Rules are clear on that too. "All protests must be referred directly to the arbiter or the Technical Director of the tournament." You aren't allowed to go over their heads and try to settle your dispute in the court of public opinion. That's exactly what Topalov was reprimanded for. If it should turn out that Niemann cheated too, that would be worse than what Carlsen did, but it wouldn't get Carlsen off the hook.
If a lot of people are cheating online it does not make it ok, also, cheating on a money tournament online should be a ban from fide.
those who want to can always refuse to play against carlsen if they feel so strongly about it; looking forward to a world of mass posturing defaults
I agree with that. We just need a few GMs brave and principled enough to give Magnus a taste of his own medicine. But they won't, because they need the money.
Many og them agree with the idea that Niemann is a notoriouse cheater. And all of the top players has been aware of Niemann before this happend in S.cup.
@@thomasgilson6206 you want them to take a stand for a serial cheater?
Are you dumb?
Supporting Hans must have taken a toll on your thinking 😂
Grade A irony. Ben is the same guy who fails to listen to Poker experts when discussing cheating in poker .
Exactly!
But Hans was a substitute Magnus didnt now he was playing at first.
Not sure what your ax to grind with Naka is, but he has not said that.
Magnus didn't lose he got f.ckin stomped!
Ben, what do you think about the idea that titled players should be held to a higher standard in regards to cheating online?
"what'd you do when you were 19?
You pled the fifth that's what you did"
If you hear Fritz’s voice deprecating Hans’ opponent’s moves, SUSPICIOUS.
Bens reputation took a dive along side Hans…. On purpose it seems.
I used to love this guy.
Magnus didnt hurt Hans, Hans hurt Hans by being dispicable. Cheaters and liars are inextricably joined.
About once a year, I play to about a 650 rating on an online chess site and then lose to someone rated below 600 and quit.
But people discussing who they'd want to have dinner with - I'd choose magnus or hikaru, but only if they were sauced. I have a feeling both of those guys are pretty interesting when they aren't talking about what happens in 17 moves.
Which I find interesting, too, but not when assessing a steak.
totally agree, thanks for sharing your take
again @GMBenjaminFinegold, a big thank you for being the rational voice in the Hans - Magnus story. You are now proof that chess players have the potential of being intelligent :)
Stai zitto
..and proof they're not all drowning in confirmation bias. Nice to see.
@@Ripen3 ??????
A lot of them are intelligent. But most did develop chess skills over rational reasoning and therefor don't seem as intelligent as they should be
@@Jartran72 learning chess doesnt require rational reasoning. A memory is all you need.
I looked up his blitz progress on the FIDE website. His rating went from 2278 in November 2019 to 2632 in October 2022. How can you cheat in blitz?
It's possible
@@ovoj5631 There's a video of someone cheating against Aman chessbrah in bullet (He strongly suspected it after a few hours of bullet games, and the account was suspended for fair play shortly after the stream)
@@justinbabes7561 yeah engines are very fast, especially if you're strong enough to only need to look at them for a few critical moments, then it becomes extremely possible to cheat in blitz or bullet
@@justinbabes7561 I think he's asking how can you cheat in blitz OTB?
@@user-ro9md9wp3j No way realistically.
9:54 this is misinfo. Magnus considered not attending the entire game when realizing that Hans was invited (confirmed by himself and other GMs) but ultimately decided to play. so fyi magnus thought/knew that Hans would cheat from before they had the game
I think the take that Magnus is just a "sore looser" is a little simplistic. It's quite plausible that he had been sitting on information and this simply prompted him to act on it, that's generally how it works.
@@markdierker4292 I don't think it's too simplistic.
One of Magnus' reactions was to resign a game against Hans as it started, which itself is directly defined as cheating per FIDE laws. A player cannot lose on purpose, it is match fixing. A player is also not allowed to use the court of public opinion to attack or make claims about another player.
I concur Ben---good analysis/intuition
Set up a room as a faraday cage and subject each player to an emp before entry to the room and players can't leave until their game or games are complete. Probably the only way to prevent cheating outside of non-electronic mechanisms.
then there'd have to be a bucket in the corner and they'd be accused of colluding with the piss boy.
Tin foil hats for the audience are cheaper
They should, and he would lose.
How could non electronic mechanisms be used for cheating? I can't think of any way
@maxb krab tell us. There would be no way to convey the moves without electronic devices. Morse code from an audience member by blinking their eyelids or hand signals is nigh near impossible with many witnesses milling about the hall at Sinqfield club.
Ben may be the wisest voice in chess
Time to read the WSJ article in full 😊
There is also growing evidence many podcasters are harvesting a sudden windfall of Big Chess Drama clicks ...
Magnus seems to have claimed he has more evidence but needs Hans' permission to share that evidence. Seems to me if there was no cheating Hans can just say "Magnus has my permission to use whatever evidence he has to show I cheated." Then, if Magnus can't provide convincing proof, Hans is free and clear. It's the third day now I've been waiting to see whether Hans gives permission.
Magnus is being silly.
He does not need permission to accuse Hans of cheating but needs his permission to supply proof?
@@canindya Sounds weird to me, too. Again, if I was Hans and I wasn't a cheater I'd call Magnus' bluff and that would be that. Personally, I will be very disappointed in the "world's best chess player" if he created this situation without having a rock-solid endgame in mind.
He doesn't have evidence or he would have shared it.
You can't not like this guy. realist guy online. Go on Benjy
Realest realist
But also stay there
“I don’t mind eating by myself” 😂 Dad jokes get me every time
Finegold with them rational thoughts.
Helping keep the Interweebs sane, and I thank you for it.
Hell no. He’s a youngster. World will demand compliance. Let that process happen naturally and hope he figures it out before some devistating reckoning. He’s talented and it ought cultivate.
Go Ben, chase the bag, but stay there
Kamaru Usman, (now) former UFC welterweight champion and #1 in the P4P rankings recently lost his championship to someone who was a 3:1 underdog. Afterwards he gave credit to his opponent and expressed anticipation to compete again.
Yes but Hans was ranked 50th. That's like Usman losing to an amateur.
@Diomedes yes it is. A welterweight ranked 50th wouldn't even be in the UFC.
Damn can't wait for the people he called out to react lol
If Hans is incapable of defeating Magnus without being accused of cheating, what use is it for him to play him anyway? What use is it for any player below 2,800 to play Magnus? This sets a very dangerous precedent.
its not that he won, it's how he won.
Some players have beaten magnus. None have been accused of cheating. Hans is a well recognised cheater and persistent liar.
this is a proposterous analysis. Magnus has been beaten dozens of times by lower rated players and never been accused...
Exactly, based on rating Hans should win somewhere in the range of 25% of games against Magnus.
Also funny that people accuse Hans of cheating with no evidence, but Magnus who clearly broke the rule about losing on purpose which is directly cheating is entirely ignored.
@@kiraPh1234k : you really don't know anything about probability. Do you?
Ben has the most spot-on, well-reasoned take on the whole situation here.
Also, I’ve lost a lot of respect for Magnus on how he handled this, and Hikaru for his click-bait dogpiling on to make a quick buck at the expense of further damaging a young man’s reputation. At this point, even if Hans was cheating, they wouldn’t be vindicated, because they threw around allegations without the slightest shred of evidence, and that would just be a lucky break for them…like if vaccines turned out to have something harmful in them, that wouldn’t make anti-vaxxers who make stuff up “right”.
Personally I’m fine with Hans screwing over his own career by cheating and associating himself with a known cheater. The kid really needs to learn some humility. He throws tantrums on stream and throws his mouse, smashes his keyboard, screams like a stuck pig both when he wins and loses. Not saying it makes him a cheater I’ll just be happy to see a lot less of him once this is over
I think this could end up in court.
This idea that using an engine to win online is a lesser crime than otb is outdated. Using an engine online and using an engine otb are philosophically the same. The only difference is it’s harder to do otb. But it’s the same game, same money often involved. The principle and the competitive nature are the same. The punishment should be the same, and soon it will be.
Amen
the drama never ends
Re: Hans disappearing after October 15 and the next six months. The possibility of this happening is exactly why Magnus put out such a weak statement. Everything Magnus said was a matter of opinion and supposition, but if Magnus had said "Hans cheated in x game" then it becomes a question of objective, verifiable facts. If Magnus takes a shot and misses, he could end up legally and financially responsible for the damage to hans's reputation, including hans's lost income for potentially decades
Suspicion of cheating is valid and is a good way to start investigation. It also promotes better security measures and if you don't have nothing to hide, it's no problem. Magnus was right and is courageous to withdrawn thousands of dollar to make a statement in the chess community.
@@reincarnatedleaf1926 well he proceeded to suspect cheating in the wrong way. It's like those nutballs who claim the election was rigged in 2020 and claim that it brought a spotlight on election fraud. All it did was create division among opposite parties and now chess fans and pros alike with this Hans nonsense
There's a lot going on in this controversy but I think this video has convinced me: It's certain he cheated online, it's likely he cheated more online than he admitted, it's unlikley that any of these statistical analysis are telling the whole story, and on the balance of probabilities, It's unlikely that hans cheated OTB vs Magnus to win with black - though he may well have cheated OTB at other points.
The real take home is this is ruining a young man's life virtually entirely on the hunch of Magnus (a hunch most top GMs don't even agree with). The fact that cheating online is so prolifict (even among players who go on to be professional) is the part of the puzzle that I think cements this as having gone too far.
why would it need to end? if you get caught cheating you get banned for a period of time in most other sports that i know of. we still want the best of the best competing
We all know that if Hans us cheating over the board, it is with a supercomputer hidden in a lipstick.
Oh Ben, there are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count and those who can't.
What about how he "miraculously" prepared the whole line opening from a game between magnus and wesley that never existed? What about him in the analysis unable to suggest any ideas or explain his moves?
Magnus also said Hans was not concentrated on the game.
All of these are strong indications that Hans cheated in that game.
You don't have the same respect when playing people online as when facing them in real life. It feels like you're playing (bad) computers rather than human beings because you don't your opponent in front of you. You don't have the same respect when sms:ing people as when talking to them face to face, because the former feels a bit like writing to robots or rather like talking to yourself. You are the only one with feelings as far as you are concerned.
Wait, did you just upload a segment from a video that you've already uploaded which itself is basically a livestream VOD? That's some dedication to milking this for all it's worth.
Can we get a compilation of top 10 best GM Bem Finegold chess drama moments of all times next, please?
Personally, i didnt watch the entire 'livestream vod' and i appreciate shorter form explaning Bens stance on the issue :>
Ahh yes. Post the same content in different lengths to trick people into thinking you have more to say on the subject, Ben. I promise it will work.
Come on mate, everyone is milking the drama for content, let Ben get his as well
could this be considered cheating on youtube?
It unironically has been working
Frankly, terrible
guess you're new to the channel. it's common for his editor to upload a 1-3+ hour VOD then clip it out, he always has. I guess you're thirsty for drama so it *you clicked* anyway meh
So Han's moves did not match chess base's comparisons with 3 engines?
there was no 100% correlations between his moves & engine moves?
That is what you were saying?
It does not take any knowledge of chess to match human moves with an engine's moves.
Can you outline a reasonable physical mechanism for getting computer information to a human playing at a board in real time? What physics is employed and who does the engineering?
love how unbiased he is!! finally a refreshing take on this scandal! subbed!!
Ben's perspective is what's needed right now, and his point about Hikaru is particularly apt.
I’d say it is likely, that Niemann cheated against Carlsen & many other times, but definitely not sure about it! Just the “overall” scrutiny with a Lot of red flags makes me think, that it is even highly likely, that he cheated. I hope the truth comes out at some point in time. If he’s innocent, this all sucks for all, coz for ex. he would never be completely vindicated, coz almost impossible to Prove the negative
Same here!
@@robertm3561 if you went allin for it and decided to find clues to Magnus cheating, you would find a ton. This is what the average chessplayer don't understand. It's called confirmation bias, and this scandal is drowning in it.
What are you talking about, he's completely biased, Hans is the God of Chess and he treats him as though he's just an ordinary mortal
I'm not trolling ... someone please tell me ... how can someone cheat OTB?
They said he had a bead where the sun don't shine ... but how does IT read the board and know the placement of pieces to provide a move? Like buzz 4x for a Knight, and 6x for F, and 3x for 3 (Knight F3)? Does the cheater have a invisible contact in his eye that is computer like, and it connects to the bead?
I'm with Mr. Finegold here. Where is the HARD evidence FOR the game in question??? OR do we need to wait for Chesscom to give the answer this week???
the bead would receive signals from aliens who watch the game live and then vibrate the best moves (or some other information, maybe not every move)
It doesn't. People talking ish. Someone could have ear bud with someone filling in moves
How did he cheat? Before the game started Hans as hidden an Informator on the WC and while Magnus was thinking sometimes he would go to the WC and consult it, as easy as it gets to cheat OTB
You bring a cell phone and use the engine. You have a spotter who signals you the moves. You consult books with opening theory. I can go on.
They also don't broadcast the game live ... they're on a 30 m delay. So nobody can buzz in a move for anyone. They also did the basic body scan (they did more after Magnus quitting) upon entry.
Maybe some are right. There's an alien satellite that sees the board from thousands of miles away and somehow relay the moves to Hans or whoever.
Joking aside, nope, still no hard evidence. No smoking gun. Did Hans really used the bathroom for long periods of time? Or did he even use the bathroom at all during his game?
Or like Ben says, Magnus is just angry because he lost this game and felt Hans shouldn't have been here playing based on his history??? In this case it means Hans didn't cheat THIS game.
Eat those words Benny boy!
I am not on Magnes side the stats say Hans is ok he only plays roughly his rating people play bad against him. Also Hans is supposed to rubbish when he is someway in the top 100 players. I wonder how Yasser would handle it because he seems so mellow.