The Ripple Effects of Constantly Dumping on Your Own Game
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- čas přidán 10. 04. 2024
- streamed Apr. 3-8, 2024
Maybe you don't care about the ripple effects but they certainly exist.
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#FGC #Sajam #tekken #tekken8 - Hry
Also since there’s a few comments who maybe didn’t watch yet I’ll emphasis again: You absolutely should complain about problems with games you play. I complained about Tekken’s MTX and patch problems in the same stream right before this. That’s not the point of the video though, and I encourage you to dig a little deeper if that’s your only takeaway.
Don't clickbait?
@@666slateran666 There’s not clickbait, the title doesn’t mention the thing I just commented. For every video it’s clear when people in the comments thing they know the context or watched a few minutes and reply without reaching the point in the video where I chat about something.
@@SupermanSajam I don't like complaining about games constantly either. But Bandai and Capcom kind of do it to themselves with how they conduct themselves. Personally think sf6 and tekken will be great in a few seasons.
@@666slateran666 Than you would agree with the rest of the video lol
@@666slateran666 dude watch the video lol
My favorite genre of sajam, the same video but 2 months later
The classic
idk man this video isn't really for me but the next one for sure is gonna be it
Seems like every new fighting game that gets released has a community that needs to hear the same message.
I will watch it anyway 😂
@@dubuious Surely the NEXT video, will be the return to true honest footsies
I get chest pains just thinking about the discourse about 2XKO when it comes out. The union of fighting game discourse and Riot game discourse? A match made in hell for sure.
Don't worry us league players don't have time for multiple riot games
As someone who's never touched a Riot game, it'll be a fascinating trainwreck of discourse to watch for the first time.
As someone who plays League and plays USFIV, I'm going to get so mad! :D
dude it'll be fucking sick though! the game is going to suck major shit but people will gobble its nuts because riot will pay out the ass to force it into the big stage. why earn the spot when you can buy it? cant wait for the FGC to learn how riot operates.
@@khaosfaction> the game will suck
how do you know?
"You act like you block a move" LMAOOOOO
Ey brother you were like the biggest hater a few months ago lmao look how good those videos did, I'm glad you stopped doing that
During the tekken slam all the streamers were like OMG TEKKEN IS SO FUN IM HAVING SO MUCH FUN LEARNING. It made me want to buy it
You might have already made up your mind but i wanted to share my experience as a first time Tekken player.
Ive been having a blast and seeing my own play style evolve over time is one of the most satisfying experiences ive had while gaming.
The discourse online gets very tiresome and i hope it hasnt deterred you from playing the game.
I can only recommend ✌🏻
In all seriousness, it's why I pulled the trigger and bought Tekken 8. I'm still enjoying it.🤷
Clearly. . . according to the internet. . . you are all clearly wrong. I'm sorry to inform you all but you are having fun wrong. . .
I was one of the ones who finally bought it after watching Phi's training streamers videos! Legit having a good time still!
I do enjoy this game very much. I just know theres much it can improve on
I started fighting games at the end of sf5. I was so excited to play fighting games that i went online to learn about them. That's when I found out that sf5 was the devil.
Sf6 comes out and now sf5 was the last bastion of true footsies in fighting games, according to the public. Which surprised me.
I think criticism is necessary to improve a product, but when its not constructive and devolves into hate, it becomes hard to know what's true and what isn't. It also discourages people from actually playing your game.
Only now is sf5 given its flowers.
Welcome to the life cycle of fighting games. New game bad, old game good, happens every single time. I'm actually surprised people are nostalgia goggling SF5 so soon with the big hate wagon that was behind it. (I personally still love it, though. First fighting game I've ever tried to play competitively)
Sf5 is now the game people look back on fondly? Hahaha it really did happen. “Whatever came before is better! Duuurr”
Capcom's FGC has some of most ass backwards logic of pure jack assery.
i never really see anyone praising sfv. only a few random youtube comments here and there.
@@nicorobin7762MenaRD tweeted that he thought SF6 was scrubby and implied he liked 5 more.
This sort of topic always reminds me of what Keits said about his experience balancing KI. At first, he was happy to work with the community and listen to their complaints, but he quickly realized that when top players realized they had the ear of the devs it became an arms race to see who could whip up the most vile hate mob. The more people they could convince that a character was OP or a mechanic was scrubby or whatever, the more they thought they could pressure the devs to cave into their demands. It became a competition to see who could shit on the game more than anyone else.
Part of me is surprised (but happy) looking back on the chance of how messy Strive's developer backyard talks could have been for the developers, since I knew of KI's simillar attempt to interact with the community in the past. But it seems people have usually been level-headed about them here.
It's been especially bad with tekken because the majority of the moves people complain about already are built with intended defensive measures you need to learn, but people don't like learning, they like complaining.
That might explain the hate against Riot
This is why if you know how to make a fighting game you go and make the whole roster broken.
@@chungusamongus519 People will still complain, because there will always be characters that are way more broken than everybody else.
In his video on "the need for community" Core-A talked about people in the fgc trying to engage with 'shibboleth' (customs of the culture) to basically prove that they belong and that they're cool, I think one of the major problems with the way people talk about fighting games now is that because a lot players and creators complained a lot they see complaining as another shibboleth to repeat ad nauseam so they can prove they're 'in' when all they really need to do is show up, vibe, and play the games they like
well said
Honestly, I'm starting to think complaining is the shibboleth for basically every fandom under the sun. I see it with everything I try getting into these days 😅
@@pedroscoponi4905 its the shibboleth for the internet itself
@@pedroscoponi4905 Yeah I think it falls under tribalism and it’s lame, it’s also why some people care about other opinions on a superficial level (rather than what people are actually saying) so much. The way has always been looking for people you belong with and not fitting in with wider fandom persay, just frustrating when you have to go through that wider fandom either to find those people in the first place or find new players to go against.
I thought this was a reupload bruh 💀
who knew the infinite content glitch was to be the only positive person in the FGC
The shirt changing game on this video was insane, Sajam's best performance ever.
“This game is so trash”
Last played: today
Total play time: 700 hours
Or
“This game is not for me, but I’ll stay on this ship so I don’t lose viewers ($$$)”. Why the “influencers” (get paid to sit) were asking if they should stay, while some seasoned Tekken players were voicing their concerns.
@brotatochap_7563 what are you getting at here?
ill trust that guy over the 0.5 hour playtime dude any day
@@Freshomania okay, and like Sajam said in the video, it’s okay to complain about a game. Equally though if all you do is complain but you still play, you’re not being honest with yourself because on some level you must enjoy it. Say you love it but it has issues, instead of the whole “this game is so trash” dramatics we get all the time
you have to take into account that most of the players are already outside the refund period and the game wasn't cheap - only viable way to voice out the disappointment is through reviews
"What chip damage, bro? You act like you blocked a move." Harsh but true.
You don't have to speak or understand Korean to feel the reactions in that Jeondding clip with your entire soul
While I would never say Strive is a game without room for critiscism (I think we've all said our part about the lobbies), I did deal with that negativity and discourse around the game for 2 years before it felt like the community calmed down and the content being posted about it was balanced on both sides. And I was someone who HAD played Xrd and +R beforehand.
I didn't feel feel like I could express me liking the game so much around a group of people before arguments would arise. Around the release of Season 3, I actually find the community to be pretty fun to engage with now, and I hope that energy continues into the next year.
In most circles I frequent you either can't criticize Strive or you can't make a positive remark about Strive, there's no in-between
Yeah, watching some old videos as someone who just got into GGST (and FGs in general) is kinda funny. The reception looked _very_ negative, even though not that much seems to have changed. The top tiers are basically still the same aside from zato, right!?
@@Sorrelhas I think there's a strong correlation between people who love +r and xrd with circles who hate strive, and I'd say the same with melty blood type lumina with circles who like old melty. Old fans only want old thing with new paint sometimes.
@@sijiehe1826 Not what I was referring to specifically
If you go to communities that like Strive, you'll very rarely see the "I like Strive, but..." and when you see it they probably got slapped with a swarm of "WELL, IT'S GREAT THAT YOU CAN STILL PLAY THE OLD GAME, HUH?" right after
And if you go to a community that dislikes Strive, whenever you see a "It's not that bad guys, I actually like X about Strive" they're probably swarmed with angry replies like "OH BUT THEY DON'T ADD GATLINGS BACK INTO THE GAME"
My point is not about acceptance, that's a war I already lost, my point is the nuance of discussion (when it comes to subjectivity anyway, Strive has issues and successes that are impossible to deny; for example, the servers and rollback, respectively)
@@Sorrelhas Discourse is devolving because people are getting tired of each other imo. Some people are sick of "old good, new bad" mentality that so many FG players have, so those people aren't even going to entertain criticisms of Strive because they're so tired of the incessant comparisons to Xrd and have kneejerk reactions. Especially when most people who barge into every Strive discussion just to preach the gospel of Xrd don't even play Xrd themselves.
It's mad annoying how many orbiters showed up into the GG community. Both the Strive orbiters (the worst ones) and the Xrd orbiters who claim to like it yet don't play it.
I'm pretty firm on my belief that Tekken just has a pretty wack playerbase in general. Just look how many people started plugging because they saw they could.
Tekkens player base are the most BM I’ve seen lol. People Ki charge, one and done, and rage quit IN CASUALS! Like bro you’re not ever getting any points why are you doing this
@@goldenboy_808it’s wild too, cause I didn’t see any of this shit in 7
Yea I didn’t see those types of players in T7 too, before T8 dropped the entire reddit was hella positive and actively agreed to help the newblood learn as much as possible… T8 drops and I’m starting to believe it’s all the newcomers having a difficulty shock and being toxic because of it
@@nx47 Honestly, I saw it all the time in t7. But mostly in ranked. Which is why I stopped playing ranked in the first place. Now, I only see this type of behavior on certain type of characters.
@@j.i.nthenobody54 I heard from other T7 players that tis was a common problem in T7 though? I'm thinking what actually just happened is as the game aged, it's most toxic side of playerbase stopped playing the game as much. So now that T8 is here, the toxic side is gonna be back up until those players lose interest again.
gamers seem uniquely unable to appreciate nuance and are actively incentivized to be as hyperbolic as possible as often as possible
i know other communities arent immune to this and some are as bad or worse. but this is such a reliable phenomenon that we basically get the same "look calm down you idiots" video from sajam every couple of months (which then triggers its own strange and extreme backlash) without fail
see you guys in like june tops for the exact thing everyone
"Why would anyone care that you're the best in the world at a shitty game?"
That's the video in one quote.
12:25 Light Green Shirt!
12:26 Dark Blue Shirt!
12:52 Back to Light Green!
16:04 Back to Dark Blue!
17:40 Hat trick with Light Green!
Reminds me of how games that are declining in popularity and/or developer support end up called "dead games", even though that's very much not what it means for a game to be dead. I've seen game communities, that ostensibly play and enjoy their game, routinely describe the game as "dead", and I'm just like: keep saying that, whether or not it's a joke, and you'll get it closer, yeah. A dead game is one that, even if you've purchased it, you can't meaningfully play it-whether that means multiplayer servers are down or there are literally not enough players to get a match started. And if a game's own community is describing it as dead? I guess I'm not checking it out then.
I don't think I've ever seen much of this specific behavior in the FGC though. Maybe it's because, as a community, everyone has a better grasp on what a "dead game" actually is with so many games of the genre having been lost to time. Though, maybe it's also because many games are archived in Fightcade now, and you just need to rope in one other person to be able to play an otherwise "dead game".
The people who play the FGs with smaller communities are generally much more positive because they're sensitive to this phenomenon.
A game isn't truly dead until the player count reaches 0
This is literally all i see around MK1 despite the fact the games player count on steam is still higher then 90% of all FGs and thats taking into consideration that MK is more of a console game then pc. It pisses me off to no end seeing shit like that because it's not constructive, its just ruining the game and not giving it a chance to improve
As someone who has been into fighting games for decades the problem with a lot of discourse is when you boil it all down the main issue is almost always that people who used to win a lot ain't winning as much and now you also have new people winning(which is bad for some reason).
Aris was right all along: Tekken fans are the worst part of the game.
It's not just Tekken. That said, it is also the best thing about the commuity writ large.
@@DuvJonesElaborate.
Its worse with Mortal Kombat. My friend is an mk fiend and he stopped playing outside of just with me and our other friend cuz everyone else is so fucking toxic. Not just about the game but to each other as well
@@soldier257 MK players got so much cap they could each open up their own Lids franchise.
@@soldier257 If I had to play MK, I'd be toxic ngl...
Maybe this is just nostalgia speaking, but I feel like online fandoms in general are kinda suffering because of the constant negativity. It's just hard to enjoy something if everyone is constantly complaining, even if the complaining is deserved.
Idk, I feel like it was bad even back then. I started taking FG’s seriously during SF4 AE and the discourse was still as harsh as it is now. Tekken 8 is very fun imo but many things about it are tilting. I think you can have fun with something while still dumping on it for it’s flaws.
A lot of the time with fighting games it's not deserved though. Like sure SF6 and T8 have some shitty monetization practices and their systems might need slight tuning but that equals complete garbage to the new FGC, it's stupid and completely undeserved.
big facts
Social medias just gave idiots easier access to the milk crate of self importance.
I don't listen to them, I don't even go near where they. Unfortunately, they come to me.
Sure it's made my feeds looks like a hug box, but I'd rather have a hugbox than have an echo chamber.
If the criticism is deserved, such as in games issues or changing things that need not to be touched. Then yeah, that constructive critism should be voiced.
The Ermac trailer is the closest I've seen the MK1 community to being Happy
Just wait for him to drop next week, and the happiness will fade when they find something new to complain about lol
They got happy with Omni man too, just wait 1-2 weeks.
Kinda impressive that Sajam, with a NRS background, didn't mention how the MK1 community is killing the game. That's some fucking vile discourse over there. I played the free weekend, thought it was a fun time and then was met with people nonstop nagging about it. But the thing that actually pisses me off is how they (supposedly) love MKX and don't actually play it.
@@kurtblacklake NRS is killing the game
@@kurtblacklakeThey love MKX in retrospect now that there are newer games to hate on, but when it was the current title the discourse surrounding it was just as vile and angry as you’d expect.
Fighting game discourse online is one of the worst things about this amazing community. I swear to god, people complain about it on twitter for hours on end instead of actually trying to learn anything, ESPECIALLY people who have never played at a top level. Sure, some things are stronger than others, and there are definitely problems, but why are people acting like the games are ALL bad? It hurts, especially as a huge fighting game fan who just wants to share my interest, and the impression the community gives is horrible.
Edit: I wanna clear something up real quick. You need to bring up problems in order for them to be fixed. Games like Tekken have a whole host of them right now, and as Sajam said, it’s important to bring these things up so the developers actually change things. I’m mainly referring to the people who literally will take every corner to complain about the games they play as a job. Oh, and for the people who want a severely less toxic FGC environment; go to your locals! They’re always hosted by awesome people, and I always enjoy my time whenever I’m at mine :)
Outside of fighting games, sometimes I feel this when I try to play Team Fortress 2 and everyone is either throwing slurs, being homo/transphobic or dooming about the bots or Valve abandoning the game.
And then the next match both teams partake in Conga dancing with Hoovies in the corner, and we're all having a blast. TF2 is a game of highs and lows in the community.
Dude I had a guy complain the other day about HC being OP because they couldn't bother to learn dash-block.
People love to bitch but never to adapt I guess
The FGC has honestly turned into one of the worst communities I've seen. It was always toxic sure but now it's toxic and INSANELY petty, it's pathetic and I could see how it could turn devs away from the genre.
The problem is not with the FGC, it's social media. By and large the actual people who play these games are polite and reasonable but social media amplifies whatever makes controversial engagement. Fighting Gamers are by and large more polite and respectable than lifestyle fans for any other genre and especially other competitive genres.
"This amazing community"... except when they get to discuss in social media
It's insane. SF6 is so fun and off to a MUCH better start than 5. Idk where all this negativity is coming from but log off the Internet if the game makes you that sad. Games are supposed to be fun!
To be fair, SFV’s launch is a VERY low bar.
It's become a thing where people aren't complaining because SF6 is bad. They're complaining because no matter how good SF6 is, they just don't like the style of it.
It has to be expressed at some point if someone just doesn't like the style of a game rather than present their takes as objectively right/wrong.
The lack of balance patches and it being $100 dollars to buy all the costume threes would do that but yeah SF6 is a good game
I mean, being better than SF5 is not that hard, considering that it took Capcom about 5 years to make the game look at least somewhat finished.
@@boltdm8238 SF6 is better than 4 already to me, 4 is good but SF6 is just so much more refined and pleasant to play/look at. The pro matches are also way better already imo
The negativity surrounding the game is infinitely more frustrating to me than anything in the game itself. So tired of everyone crying all the time.
This might be an issue with gamers in general. They love to complain about literally anything.
@@omgzack53and then get mad when the developers listen
The dragon's dogma 2 disingenuous and misinformation spreading is cancerous
@@omgzack53my mistake was thinking fighting game players were any different
@@KiTTtheKiDD The FGC tricks you into thinking the community is goated with clips of offline events and then you look at anything online and its so much worse
The nuanced but relatively positive person having the onus to actually put effort and thought into what he's saying more then the mindlessly abrasive negative yapper is so... soooo painfully true it made it tear the fu*k up
Tekken Fans never beating the allegations
I'm nobody, but when I finish playing a long set with someone in the Granblue lobbies, I try to always bow, say GGs, and maybe compliment something they were doing really well because I love the game and want the other player to be able to end their session with good vibes.
Yeah, I used to do that a lot in Xrd during the delay based network days. You kinda need your playerbase to be an inspiration for people to wanna willingly interact with it as an online game.
No, I'm Noboty. And I do the exact same thing. More than anything, I want to spend time with someone doing something I enjoy. (Ideally, with someone I enjoy, but I don't have that luxury.) When someone queues up to fight me, I always let them know that I appreciate their time and show basic respect and sportsmanship.
You’re not nobody bro, you’re probably one of the top 100 granblue players.
Cuz ain’t nobody play that trash 😭
It is truly transformative to go from one of these new games to an older game without patch support that's entirely held up by grass roots effort. No one wants to tell you about how fucking cool Xrd/+R/VSAV/etc. are more than Xrd/+R/VSAV players, and no one wants to tell you how shit their game is more than SF6/TK8/Strive players.
Because the only people to realistically stick with these games for this long are the type of people who made peace with the game's bs because they love those game's specific qualities that much
Strive is fucking sick. I have a few hours in Xrd trying to learn Jam and Ram, and I gotta say Xrd is also quite fucking sick. Both are great. Not necessarily responding to your comment but I had to get it it out lol.
As someone who picked up tekken 8 as my first 3d fighter and I legitimately started playing tekken far less recently whenever it seemed like everyone decided that t8 was not "real tekken". It really took the wind out of the sails of everyone being hyped to try to get the characters to whatever rank goal they had
It’s so hard for people to acknowledge that they can like something, while also having issues with it.
The main problem that no big tuber mentions is how they treated the mod community. The copyright strikes and loss of their channels is huge. All could have been avoided if Harada and Murray would warn them to not do it. The suits will always have their hands in things.
Harada went to war with the community.
*Bandai Namco
@@FireTrainer92i apologize, my initial statement should have been more clear.
I understand it's mostly Bandai but the way those 2 (Harada and Murray) chose to handle the situation by not saying anything before things went south doesn't absolve them from sharing this blame equally.
For me personally I’ve come to see internet negativity as the easy path of least resistance, and thus lazy-brained
Another effect of all that talk from my end is I've been kinda doubting my progress as a player. I've recently reach mighty ruler playing king, but due to the discourse related to character complaints, I no longer can 100% tell if I've simply actually improved since starting with T7 or if I've just been carried. Just to throw in my 2 cents here regarding the whole, "how it affects the wider perception" thing.
Just don’t listen to them.. you have progressed. Don’t look to much about the tekken influencers tiers list or char difficulty etc and play the character you love the most. People just want to boost their egos to say to the world they are playing a difficult or « weak » character. Because when they loose they have an excuse to say they loose because of the char they play. I main King too and i love this char.
Yeah don't listen to those negative people and let them ruin your enjoyement / progress with the game. If you have a daily or monthly target list of what you want to improve or what rank you want to achieve then keep playing until you reach your target. Nothing else matter.
Negativity bias is truly one of our worst traits. You can play a game for 1k hours, love 990 of them but all you'll talk about is how shit those 10 hours were.
Not being on social media has allowed me to just play Azu in ranked and smile : )
First reveal trailer for Azu got me SO hype to play her. Thats all i needed, top tier be damned.
I didnt pick her to win, i picked her cause of how much even she isnt taking the fight seriously lol
Just stay away from social Media shit and enjoy yourselves with whatever char seems fun for you.
@@xanderxrodriguez For real... "only edgy try hards use dragunov" meanwhile me, a beginner who has really been interested in him since T5 and maining him in T8 just because I think the dudes cool and neat and has only gotten cooler (and cuter) over time with his little hobbies. I guess having fun ain't allowed 🤷♀
I think with Tekken it was a perfect storm of them introducing the monetization and then having broken patches/online mode (how are you going to still have people plugging years after T7). It just creates horrible optics that they care more about nickel and diming their playerbase rather than fixing legitimate issues with the game
the whole ass online was broken? lol
Agreed. The monetization is 100% the reason Tekken 8 is seen as a bad game. There was nowhere near as much negativity in the community before that February livestream.
Sure, players would still say the usual criticisms and complaints regarding balance and online play, but I guarantee the majority of those negative Steam reviews wouldn't exist if Bandai cancelled the Shop.
@@poepertist It was broken in the sense that people could quit out of the game mid match and would not face any repercussions. This is called plugging. It's a huge issue for ranked mode because anytime someone was getting close to losing the match they could just quit the game and not lose their rank and the person that was going to win would have wasted their time (you can't get any rank points if the person disconnects). Naturally, this meant that ranked mode was filled with people plugging and it made online a lot worse experience. This was an issue in Tekken 7 too, which makes it even more baffling that they didn't do anything to rectify it when 8 came out.
Now to make matters even worse, whenever you match up with an opponent it shows the disconnection rate but their disconnection rate tracker was broken so everyone showed up as having a 0% disconnection rate lol
Also, the Tekken 8 dev team are clowns saying they are scared of banning people because they could get sued. They also wanted people to report proof of cheating on twitter where they'd manually update as excel doc with the user's information lol. None of this is how you should handle a game where online is your main game mode in 2024
People also forget that this is essentially the "arcade release" of T8. We didnt get to play T7 or any other tekken at the same time as East Asia right out of the gate. There's a lot to fix but it's still so early in the game's lifecycle
the discourse around games, but especially competitive games, is so nasty that it's probably the main reason i bounced as hard as i did. i'm not really that interested in a game i feel like nobody even enjoys because there's no joy to be shared with anyone which is kind of the point for me.
Tekken 8 was my entrance to the series. Had fun but there is just so many issues that I feel I should just play in a couple months when it's all sorted. Then again if it's going to be microtransations, battle passes and paying to even lab against characters I think I should just leave the genre. Strive was my entry to the fgc but the community and games have problems that make it completely unappealing. Problems that others games I play just don't have.
Strive's community has vastly calmed down after season 3. It is now much more fun to engage with compared to the game's early start.
@@ultraspinalki11 I started playing Strive this year and yeah, people seem mostly normal. I still can't lab against characters I don't own, which sucks but it's not the end of the world.
Sajam's perspective is interesting because of the very fact that he is someone whose job and livelihood is tied to the fighting game scene, which makes his point about how overt negativity and unending discourse is bad for the community in general, and how its not in the FGCs interest, to make a lot of sense. I agree with all of it. I would go a step further though, and think about how the rest of us, the non content creators, the not-pro players, and how we interpret the message of the people that have big voices in the scene (I know he did address this a lil bit). Think about it, commentators, youtubers, streamers, and obviously pro players, for them fighting games are a job... People complain a lot about their jobs, that's natural, even if you don't hate your job...This goes for people who are famous and mere mortals like us. But for us, fighting games aren't our jobs, they are something we do for, you know, FUCKING FUN.
So what the fuck are you doing to your own brain when the only thing that you, as the audience for the hobby you presumably like, engage with is overt vitriolic complaining? Its like some people want to be miserable. And like Sajam said, you don't have to a be shill (in fact its better if you aren't), but just because someone who takes this shit 1000% seriously because its their whole life really cares about a flaw, YOU don't necessarily have to (though obviously you're allowed to care that's not what im saying). My point is... just take it easy.
the fgc and fighting games being his job also means it's better for him and his career if the games are good and people are happy in the long run, so trying to convince people not to complain and stay in the good graces of these companies is something of a motivation as well, just something to keep in mind
@@108Fire Yeah but in Sajam's case I think its genuine. I could be wrong, I'm not in his mind, but in an attempt to be a judge of character, I think he is pretty solid.
@@gustavosanabio473 I don’t think you’re wrong, I just disagree with Sajam’s philosophy on these things. What I said still applies to all content creators however, they all got skin in the game, like Sajam just hosted his event, which I am sure he would like to grow that is certainly not being helped by how people are feeling about the state of Tekken.
@108Fire but he's saying this stuff to other people who also survive and live off the games being popular and successful so that point is kinda moot. The overly negative discourse may drive a lot of interaction for these fighting game players right now but it will hurt a lot in the long run for them, turning people away from wanting to watch or play the games they like or compete in. Sajam know this firsthand and is saying it to them. Sajam just needs any fighting game to succeed to keep his job, these other players don't have that luxury. Sajam could just do the same event with a different name
My first week of grad school I got taken aside by one of my professors who was like: it's great that you can critique, sometimes we have to teach people how. Now you gotta learn to pick out good things as well and combine them. You can fill any discussion with all good points or bad points for most things, so I want you to think about what overall ideas you believe about what we are discussing and how you can use positive and negative notes to capture that.
As someone who has been getting into commentary in my community, and having played NRS games since MK9, this is so true. MK1 has TONS of videos on how the game is dead, yet people still play it, still upload it, Sonic still talks well about it and everybody got hyped for Ermac’s trailer. There are a couple of groups in social medias that I am that is a non stop berating of players or the game in which I just tell myself “someone is deleting this game just by reading the group”. At the end of the day you either create a community no one wants to associate with, or a community that gives up on its whole point, the game. When I commentate I know some things are whack, or are broken out of proportion. But to my viewer who a) Doesn’t know or B) Doesn’t care it is way more healthy to talk about how crazy controlling Sento and how cool the combos are, hyping up Baraka’s pressure, or hey, that grab combo was ridiculous. At some point of course I am going to mention something is overpowered, poorly balanced or issues I personally have, to add proper context to the fight. But I am there commentating to create fun, have a good time with current and new members with the game I love, and watching it in the highest level is exciting.
Please remember that your views, perception and acceptance of something is also dependant on how you speak about it. If you get asked about your hobbies and respond with your Twitter energy trust me, you will have no friends nor people who want to engage with you on said hobbies. If you receive them with excitement and hope, you might get a new player who then will have its own frustrations that they get excited to overcome.
Sajam successfully talking about the same thing again making a great video again
"They boo because you give them nothing to cheer for."
Just about every MK1 player I follow on twitter seems to think the game sucks. It makes me think I'm crazy for liking it, and saps my enthusiasm. Sure the game could use some tweaking here and there, like every fighting game, but every influencer/pro online seems to only complain about the game despite playing it constantly.
I am someone who used to be a big NRS fan before really disliking their games (mainly due to amateurish animation work contrasting to their budget), but I wouldn't say the community ever tried to keep me a fan, sadly enough. MK9 fans complained about MKX's content, MKX fans complained about MK11's gameplay, then MK11 fans complained about MK1 being rushed (which is honestly one of the more worthwhile complaints). And that's not to mention the negativity DURING an NRS game's lifespan.
That's all they do it's not just mk1. Mk fans complain about everything. Just Ignore them they will never change.
You're allowed to like a terrible game. That's totally ok but it really is awful.
@@sonofgotham3696 Great way to get people interested in checking out MK. Another solid interaction from an NRS fan.
@@biggiewiggie5557My guy, i live in Brazil. Even here people sh*t on MK1 all the time and Brazil used to be a strong MK community.
This video taught me something I didn't know about myself and my viewing habits. I went through my mental checklist and realized that i Exclusively only watch fgc ppl I think have positive mentalities
Sajam, rooflemonger, jmcrofts, jwong, hell, as much as LK complains he does it in a way that's tactful, knowledgeable and fun.
In comparison, I love rooting for hotashi and he's a very cool guy, but most of his videos are him just repeating the same 90 seconds worth of complaints over and over for 15 to 20 minutes to the point where it's kind of unwatchable
I only get to play an hr or so a night..i was playing my lee and i was wondering wtf why nothing was working i couldn't get the wall to break ir any of the wall hazards..thought i just lost my skill..
Another episode of “mankind knew they could not be scrubs. So instead of reflecting on themselves, they blamed the game”
More like "Devs knew they could not compete with hobbyists. So instead of making the customization good, they attacked modders."
Thank you for making this video. It’s something people need to hear.
Thank you! I have such a hard time finding spaces to realistically talk abou any show/movie/song/game I consume. You get enough people who are interested together it ALWAYS devolves into either a negative echo chamber or some toxic fandom warzone. At this point any interests I have I tend to just keep it to myself.
The transition made me laugh. One second you were brushing your hair out of your face to suddenly a fresh hairstyle and T-shirt ❤
Sajam explains what “constructive criticism” is. Love to see it!
I love everything about DNF Duel gameplay, except that I want it to have a burst mechanic.
I finally got around to buying Tekken 8 this last week because the groups i hang around are more casual and positive about it. But i absolutely almost passed on it completely because 95% of what i hear about it online makes it sound like the worst game in years. Honestly a huge bummer.
Are u enjoying it?
Tekken 8 is pretty bad compared to other tekken games
@@adrianfajardo7750 Twitter ruined people brains. Absolute brainrot comment.
@@newphonewhodis7152 haven't actually had a chance to play against real people yet, so I've just been practicing lol. The buttons feel good to hit though.
@@adrianfajardo7750 disagree having as much fun with it as I did t6 n 7
It was genuinely so refreshing to watch the Sajam Slam and see you and Steve be so positive about the game. Thanks for that, it reminded me that I actually enjoy playing this game!
do you really need someone to remind you that you enjoy playing games? shouldn't that, y'know, come from within yourself?
I know there's a lot of memeing about making the video every 2 years, but despite the cyclical nature of The Discourse I always find you manage to help me see a new perspective on a worn topic. So I appreciate it. Great content, man.
Yeah I remember DOA6 kind of going like this. Everyone went on and on about how they were somehow going to cause the game to be fixed by complaining all the time and instead it's just dead and probably never coming back. Which is unfortunate for those of us who were really into the game. It's just my luck that the next game I enjoy as much has the same kind of blight on the community killing it off.
"If your frustration with the game is actively turning people away, it's something to think about".
You have no clue how much I wish ANYONE said that during DNF Duel's lifespan. NOBODY could shut up and just leave, they had to constantly complain while doing so. I still hold onto the belief that it's the FGC that killed DNF, not the balance or lack of patches.
Should've made a good game then.
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 just because you don't like the game doesn't mean absolutely nobody would. if the game doesn't match your tastes just drop it and go play something else bro
@@ApexGale As someone who really didn't like DNF, exactly. I sent like 2 DMs to friends venting my frustrations with the game, and then never talked about it publicly because who cares? Ya'll have fun with your game, I'll go have fun with mine.
100% obectively correct. FGC players dont play fighting games because they're fun. they just want shit fed to them and then complain when its sugar coated.
@ApexGale yeah I did that and so did literally everybody else. People have the right to complain about a game *they* spend their money on, if no one compained about starwars battlefield 2's absolute abhorrent monetization than we would still be in the same lootbox hellscape we were in then.
Sajam doing enlightening and honest take videos is a vibe. Its like walking into that one friend's house that's cozier than yours.
I swear man you always upload the shit im thinking about and getting myself down over, love your content always Sajam 🙏🏻
Anyone familiar with Tekken's history unfortunately called this. The moment it became clear that Tekken 8 wasn't going to have an arcade version that preceded the console version by like 2 or 3 years, it was obvious to a lot of people that it was going to be a buggy shit show, no matter how cool the new gameplay features were. Tekken really needs that 2 year+ period on arcades to iron out bugs, especially when moving to a new engine, like with Tekken 8.
True
Honestly, for the first time skipping the arcade period, the reaction is massively overblown. We don't have Akuma doing 0-deaths, we don't have Tekken 4 Jin, we don't have game crashing bugs or infinites, like. I bet you a large amount of the playerbase who doesn't look online for Tekken stuff are unaware what the last patch even changed.
@@sleepybinch I bet you a large amount of the "playerbase" doesn't even play the game.
Bingo! And if they took the arcade route, it would be “Asia always get the competitive advantage” complaints again…. Pick a poison
@@sleepybinchwe do have game crashing bugs. Its called " Polaris Fatal Error".
Watching the sajam slam and all my favorite people enjoying tekken game made me so excited to play and I did. then I started to watch some tekken streamers and hearing them get frustrated and angry and complain about how terrible it was really killed my enthusiasm.
I've experienced this across multiple games (both FGs and non-FGs). I also dropped the first competitive game I took seriously partly bc a lot of the top-end players in ranked seemed genuinely unhappy with the game, the direction it was heading, and would constantly talk about it. And it really did seem like "me getting better at the game = me being unhappy with the game," and that maybe the "smart" thing to do would be to play casually, or drop it altogether.
But I've also experienced constant negativity with communities I would discover *after* I've already committed to a game and sunk crazy hours into it. In these cases, at first I would just shrug the negativity off as people simply expressing their feelings or venting. And in some ways I did relate to where they were coming from. But eventually, being exposed to that constant negativity for months became *incredibly* exhausting. I'm not trying to flame those people, but eventually there's a tipping point where it's an insane drag being around that stuff all the time, and I have left communities bc of this. I'm not necessarily talking about bad patch criticism either, but being in a community where people find something new to get heated about every other day for months or even years.
But like the video was saying, I'm not saying there's zero room for good criticism (I'm extremely thankful for the rollback discourse) or that you have to be only positive. I'm not advocating for either extreme. I've been in hyper positive communities too, and I found them uncomfortable for different reasons, and left them too. I think either extreme is bad.
the discussion was so passionate he had to change shirt towards the end
I hadn't played Tekken 8 since the Eddy patch dropped and all the discourse I saw around the game was making me not interested in playing it at all. It only took me a friend asking to play some games to boot it up and realise oh yeah, this game is still really fun.
I'm not normally a Tekken player but Tekken 8 looked good enough for me to want to commit to truly learning the game but the outlook from the community has me reconsidering. It's especially bad for me as a Nina player since I can't even seek advice without getting negative comments. I know it won't get any better so I think moving on to another game will lead to a more positive experience.
Depends on where you're looking for advice. The people in the Tekken Zaibatsu discord are very helpful and you won't get any hate for your character.
Sajam channeled his inner superman with how many times he changed his shirt in this one.
I think this is one of the biggest factors to Melee’s longevity, when melee personalities talk about the game it’s always gushing with passion, they make it sound like if you aren’t playing or watching then you’re missing out on this beautifully complex game.
Also the lack of patches/dev support makes the players a lot more accepting of flaws and focus on developing counterplay, and even 20 years later there has been a different consensus on the top 3 characters maybe every 2 years since 2017
I have problems with monetization and Namco priorities with mods and the like, however, I still think the game is sick. We have the best Tekken newcomers since basically 5. Learning the new systems and matchups is still super fun and I'm still confident balance/bugs will be fixed over time.
I agree with you 100%. PhiDX is a great example of finding balance, while MainManSWE has been unhinged. There are a lot of factors at play. T8 nerfed the play style of top T7 players. The entire KBD/Block/Parry/Whiff Punish meta went out the window and suddenly people are talking about the game "not being Tekken" when they mean, the game "isn't Tekken 7". There are obviously some offensive overtuning, but if you look at Arslan losing to Yaz, it was defense and counterplay that caused the upset. I also think the abject failure of MK1's first year has spooked a lot of gamers, and SF6's affect on fighting games in general (the universal rushdown mechanic in T8, added to Strive and Fatal Fury, and likely to appear in Virtua Fighter according to its devs) have multiple fanbases experiencing the same aggravation at the same time. But Tekken 8 is 2 months old with no arcade development time. Practicing the tiniest bit of patience would do wonders for the community. As a 150k player, I have had a ton of fun and so have my friends and the same goes for SF6.
And as far as all the "old games" are classic songs, the act is every generation will have new classic songs. Maybe for this current gen DBFZ will be its MvC2, Tekken 7 will be its VF5, or GGStrive will be its BBCPhan. But the idea that there is universally appreciated music or video games is belied by cycles of history.
*They just bugfixed much of this, but not the hazard interactions. They also buffed the nerf on Azu.
It's not just "Not Tekken 7", it isn't Tekken period. The game is a brain dead button mashing parody of Tekken lol.
Like yeah, old Tekken can be kinda slow with strong defense and footsies so maybe a little more offense would've been interesting, but T8's "solution" is to have nearly every single character have unga bunga launching 50/50's that do 50%+ of your health, jailing jab strings that are +30 on block, and unreactable CH lows that usually setup straight into a 50/50, and that's barely hyperbole.
What they did to Eddy is a pretty good example of how disgraceful this game is, The game actively punishes you for trying to play Tekken like Tekken and goes as far as flanderization to mold characters into playing like lobotomites, and rewards you for being a lobotomite. I've literally talked to players who've shot up to purple ranks in half a day by cheesing a top tier, not even T7 Akuma or T6 Bob could get away with that at their peak.
There is just no other game in the franchise where you can get into the upper tiers of ranked and still have zero fundamentals beyond what you see in a CZcams tutorial.
And the fact that industry veterans couldn't catch just how bad they screwed up, without needing an arcade port, is frankly embarrassing. I'm personally not giving them leeway for incompetence this severe.
I think the stage hazards failing to activate might be related to whether the opponent is at regular wall splat height or has slipped to low slump
Honzo pointed out Sajam changes shirts like a dozen times and now I'm re-living the ending to The Usual Suspects
Becoming a tekken player so i can insist this single patch is the only time tekken has ever been 'real tekken'
Edit - I'm so happy for how well sf6 is doing in Japan. I love the game and if I only looked at Twitter I'd think I was alone in that.
Edit edit - I like a lot about pat but on this old vs new thing they simply cannot tell where their preference ends and where actual competitive integrity and requirements start. The idea that these modern games aren't deep, I mean hey maybe you just haven't explored it? Tell me how momochi can do what he did this week if the game is basically just random, anyone can just grab games off anyone. It's baseless and weird.
Imagine if instead of all these tweets knocking sf6 compared to sf3, Ryan hart was like raising interest or running tourneys fronair fair to Evo for sf3. If he was building sf3 up even more than its history does due to this big tourney coming up. If people showed love that way instead of using love to compare against games they don't like... It'd be better.
Look I love Tekken as Franchise.
And I was extremely sceptical ever since we saw the heat mechanic.
But because of the cool new graphics and personal bias towards design choices for Devil Jin at first glance...I gave it a try despite my rational reservations.
I even helped another friend to teach new Tekken players fundamentals and train with them dozens if not hundreds of hours. Despite seeing more and more flaws ( and getting plugged on dozens and dozens of times) I still kept focusing on the parts that were fun, especially seeing new players getting better every week.
Then they started with adding the MTX shop despite mentioning nothing about it to reviewers. That was the part were I was one step from jumping ship because I felt deceived and betrayed.
This f2p shit was not what I signed up for at launch a couple of weeks ago.
And normally for every other game this would have been it for me. But because it was Tekken I swallowed that shit too.
But then they added another layer of f2p monetization and still didnt give us wins when we get plugged on.
I just was disgusted by Bamcos Corporate greed and deception. Also Harada's idiotic tries to create a false narrative in response to criticism made it worse. What an honorless scumbag he is.
At this point Tekken 8 and bamco and Harada deserve all the shit they get. The review bombing, the negativity on socials.
TEKKEN proved before it can come back from the brink. Amd this time it is not anywhere near the brink.
But they are getting a good trashing in retaliation from the consumers and longtime fans they betrayed.
Bamco messed this up.
But they can also fix this.
Tekken 7 had an amazing time during the twt. It kept constantly growing and only suffered a few setbacks ( paid frame data , at least a one time thing - no ingame shop or battlepass. And the Leroy Smith debacle).
But overall the community was positive and enjoyed ranked with deathmatches and cool fundamental Tekken gameplay.
This in Tekken 8 is a historic low for bandai namco and Harada.
Thank you so much Sajam for these videos. I really appreciate you.
How is this video streamed from march 3rd according to description?
Eddy was releashed to public in april 3rd
games are just like programming languages,
if no people are complaining about it, then no one is playing it
Every single heat engager that also has power crush properties is high. You must include this in any discussion about those moves.
Thank you for making this video !
THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS!!!
Seriously depressing to see so many known figures really hurting the community. I thought it was just me thinking this.
So the reason the Azucena thing happens is that they made the second hit of her WR 3,2 not come out on whiff, but that causes her momentum to not stop so she goes to another continent and even then she can parry in back-turn making characters like Kazuya have to do frame perfect or near frame perfect punishes
"toxic positivity" is a useful concept which was almost immediately co-opted by people who need everyone to be as miserable as they are
okay the behooves is crazy
2:19 thank you for bringing this to our attention, i will carefully analyze (laugh my ass off at) this clip
theres so much overlap between FGC woes and MOBA woes it surprises me. the amount of people that constantly nag the game they spend 8+ hours on per day is wild. i get that there can be legitimate issues worth complaint but man, lots of these dudes wanna complain because of.... idk, i cant attribute motivations. but i can definitely say that theyre not in developer meetings pitching solutions hahaha
Ok. Here's the solution: Get rid of paid Battle Pass with untextured blender ball as reward for completing 75% of it and stop attacking modders.
I mean, considering how quickly the FGC adopted terms like kusoge...is it any surprise? Heck, i don't talk about any of the fighters i like anymore simply cause there is so much dismissive negativity seemingly at all times.
I mean, look at what happened to "Melty Blood". The whole bathroom joke was just a part of a greater sentiment to convey how easy it was to set up and how dedicated the playerbase was to play. But now, it's been twisted to say that "Melty Blood" is beneath regular fighters and deserves to only be played in the bathroom. It went from endearment to spiteful dismissal, a fighter you only play as a joke.
Funny how this reminds me so much of Black Ops Cold War; Gets a battle pass and ends up being broken.
You'd think it wouldn't be very difficult to just not hate your game but it's honestly surprising how common it is. I literally had to block a guy on Steam because every time I'd check the forums for one of the games I play he'd just be bitching about the update cycle being slow or giving unprompted speculation about future updates. Like I get people shouldn't be forced to be positive about the game but just constantly dumping on it is how you get a monthly average player count below 100 every month for the past year with the past 4 months averaging around 60 players. Meanwhile I'm in the corner with close to 800 hours in the game still having a pretty enjoyable time despite playing it on and off for over a year now
Someone please send this to the main man.
When I refer to "positivity," I dont mean that your opinions on the game should be good even if things are obviously bad.
What I mean is that your outlook should be positive, your attitude should be positive, and the way you interact with others should be positive.
If you come at something with a negative perspective, you shouldn't be surprised when everything falls apart around you. Because if you claim that the world is ending, you're ultimately the one that will make that prophecy a reality.
I wasn't ready for the outfit swaps.
When I worked in the game industry, we almost shipped a patch that partially undid the day 1 patch. We would've had a hell of a time figuring out exactly what got rolled back, too. Luckily it was caught before we submitted the patch. And we fixed our process after.
But that is what this patch sounds like to me.
Toxic complaining in public isn't just being done for its own sake, it's a way of holding the developers hostage. Either change the game to suit their preferences better, or they'll create a toxic atmosphere around the game in order to chase people away. Alienating new players isn't some unforseen consequence, it's the entire point. It's an entitled...and frankly sick...mindset, but it's not irrational.
this is the most batshit insane take ive ever seen on this issue, actual qanon level of conspiracy shit
Arslan ash is going to have a big wake up call when he kills his game and if forced to get a real job
This is entirely irrational actually. What happens when you're successful and everyone quits?
Wow, you just pretty much descried the drooling clowns of the MvC community. Now those miserable roaches are never going to get a new game.
@@thomasshepard7891 Simple, their rationalization is that the game died because the developers didn't listen to them enough, so the game dying isn't their fault. They then switch to another game and repeat the same toxic behavior.
The fastest way to stop enjoying a game is to go spend time on its subreddit. You will walk in enjoying the game and leave convinced it is the worst balanced thing with shitty devs and absolutely busted mechanics that no sane human could ever enjoy.
Like obviously people should be able to complain. Games have problems and they should be voiced. The problem is that when the only thing you ever hear is how much a game sucks it can be hard to maintain enthusiasm because, well, apparently the game sucks.
Because it really is that bad.
It's gross to even say it, but Reddit got it right on this one.
Damn this Sajam dude has a great quick-change act, I didn't even see him move to change shirts
How do you change your shirt so quickly?
Not a fighting game, but I've been saying this about FF14 for awhile. People got into trend of acting like the game was dead because the latest series of patches didn't have content they liked. It's fine to not like it, but I don't even want to know how many people ended up being turned away or had their experience with the game soured solely because Popular Streamer #56 couldn't stop complaining about everything.
It's not even Tekken, it's a modern gamer thing.
First couple of months: Game is good, how dare you say anything bad about it?
3-5 months+: Game is shit, you're on copium, X company killing their game.
Meanwhile they continue to put 100+ hours into it.
No game stays fun forever, there comes a point where you have to accept the honey moon period is over and if you continue playing it after that then it's clearly not bad. Just your mentality.
That's the new game cycle, once the "honeymoon" phase of the game is over, people start praising the previous iteration and shaming the newest one
You're saying it like people can't like the game and complain about it at the same time. I love Tekken and these game breaking bugs coming with the new patch is something I don't care about that much since it's a new game and it didn't have the arcade only period like previous Tekken. But I never knew they would stoop so low with monetization.
@@liu3chan Like Sajam said, there is a difference between "Yeah there are some problems right now but I'm still enjoying it" and "Game is dogshit, trash devs, why does anyone even play this game anymore?"
Also SF6 has the same bs in their game though at least they were up front about it and people still bought it. It's just being a fool on principle, had they brought it up before release you still would have bought it and don't even act like you wouldn't 😂
Nuance is hard but try to keep up.
@@callmetravesty8762 I'm not saying I wouldn't buy it. I need to experience the bad myself, not just listen to people complaining. I played every Tekken but if they're gonna try to disrespectfully milk me more I'm probably not gonna buy the next one. Just like I played almost every Mortal Kombat but after the disappointment that was MK11 I never even looked at MK1 outside of its trailer. From now on if I want to play MK I'm pirating MKX and if Tekken disappoints me more I'm pirating Tekken 5 instead of buying the latest instalment. I shall not sacrifice my integrity to be a fanboy.
@@liu3chan So if they up front said they were putting in a battle pass and you still bought it, then complain about it.. I don't know man seems dumb.
There's nothing wrong with not liking something but I can just not buy the battle pass? It's mainly full of rubbish anyway.
All I care about is the game, the online and DLC characters.
I like the 3 different shirt tech Sajam got going on
As someone who literally doesn't have twitter anymore, and tends to only interact with people if they're gonna be mature about their criticism; seeing what kinda new stuff is popping up as drama within the FGC is like watching a nature documentary for me.