Match Loco Speeds The Easy Way(244)
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- čas přidán 26. 07. 2024
- Most model railroaders are aware of speed matching but also have only a basic concept of what is required to do it and know even less about what they can do to make it a much easier process. So in this video I'l share with you my method and hopefully get you started on the right track. So let's get started!
I could not find a website for the manufacturer of the Accutrack II Speedometer but as I said at least one eBay dealer offers them and Streamlined Backshop stocks them. Check him out at www.sbs4dcc.com . Also I noted that the current model includes both the US and UK N scale as well as the common UK OO scale. - Jak na to + styl
Larry, your channel is a Godsend! I have a small layout so I am striving to add more features as opposed to space. Lighting features, sound equipped consists, super detailed scenery as some examples. This speed matching video solves a 10 year+ problem I had with not being able to run consists. Thanks for sharing your vast knowledge with all of us! 👍
Been doing it that way for a while, works great in N scale. Bob
Thank you again for all this info Larry, the manufactures should start making dummy locos again so then you can put as many locos on your train that you want.....
Have that device for years. Worth every penny for speedmatching . A little advise , most of my locos run backwards faster than forewards in the same speedstep. So i trimmed that also. I use the slower loco as master and slow down the faster as slave. Yes is a lot of work but the end result is fantastic.
Super, thanks Larry. Looking forward to the next one.
Thank you for this great video. It makes me wonder how the real locomotives are setup to run in a consist.
Good info thanks for sharing.
I was able to Speedmatch a consist of 3.
3 different Decoders, Tsunami2, ESU, and ECO-PNP.
3 different manufacturers Walthers, Proto2k and omg a "Bachmann." In disbelief... I made a video.😆
Might add. They stayed consisted speeds vHigh, vMid and vStart(helps if that value is set to 0)
Larry, this was a really good video, thank you.
Great video. Cant wait to see next weeks. Also, I recently got one from Yankee Dabbler and am enjoying working with it as it is so simple and easy to use..
Excellent informative video I enjoyed watching.👍😁😁😁🚂🇬🇧
As always, a great video! I use JMRI to speed match as you can run two locos at once and use programing on main to make speed adjustments while both locos are in motion. It's very easy to do on a small oval or circle of track. However, I love the idea of using a speedo to set them up knowing what the actual scale speed is. Also, I have always found that no matter how much you adjust them, there is always one loco that will end up running just a tiny bit faster than the other. At least at varying speed settings anyway. When you adjust the faster loco slower to try and match the slower loco, it seems it always "leapfrogs" to a slower speed than the one you were trying to match. I use this phenomenon to my advantage setting up the lead loco so it is just slightly faster than the rear, and any succeeding loco's if there are more than two in the consist. This way, you create a shared load between all of the locos in the consist. If you don't do this, and let the second or succeeding locos run slightly faster, you will find that even under the load of pulling a consist, there will be some slack in the couplers between locos. This means that the rear loco(s) are doing 100% of the work which is hard on those locos. It also limits the size of the consist you can pull compared to load matching them. By making sure the lead loco(s) are always a tiny bit faster, it will share the load with the rear loco(s) in the consist and you will be able to pull longer consists with less wear and tear on all of the locos in the consist.
Nice thanks for being this back up I look forward to this video 😀👍
Thank you your video was very helpful 😀
I don't have any consists but I did use essentially the same technique to set up all my locos so that every 20% of throttle equals about 5 mph. While I'm sure it's not realistic it at least makes it easy to move from one engine to another. It does seem that the cv2/cv6/cv5 plot is pretty linear for both Tsunami 2s and Loksound 5s. I tried using 28 step tables but found that CV2/6/5 worked just as well and was much easier. Not having a speed detector I just marked out a scale 1/4 mile on my track and timed each engine with the stopwatch feature on my phone (speed = 900/time in seconds for 1/4 mile). this might be a little cumbersome if you have a lot of locomotives. One of the many benefits of having a small layout!
Hi Larry, you mentioned "back-emf" in this video and I would like to know if you can provide additional detail concerning how it relates to consisting. I've seen other videos that say turn off all back-emf on locos in a consist, while others say turn it off in all trailing locos but leave it on in the lead loco.
I did watch your video #79 and while it provided a detailed explanation of back-emf, I didn't hear details around its use with consisting or how it can be turned off.
Thanks - The broad knowledge you share on the channel undoubtedly serves the hobby well - I am a new subscriber.
Back Electromotive Force or BEMF uses the small current generated by the spinning motor armature to monitor hoe fast the loco is traveling. The decoder then is able to maintain a steady speed by adjusting the voltage it applies to the motor-it all is basically cruise control for model trains. When BEMF was first introduced in decoders it could be a little unpredictable when in consists as the locos could end up fighting one another. So the practice of disabling it came along to counter this problem. However the software in decoders that controls BEMF has improved greatly and I haven’t seen the need with modern decoders. Also it works best when decoders and locos from the same manufacturer are consisted. I also never fiddle with the BEMF settings as they can be very touchy and difficult to adjust. Hope that helps.
Thanks Larry, Very Helpful.
Thanks Larry.
I don't know, I might have missed it. I turn off momentum when speed matching and add just a little after they are matched up.
Yes, that is a good approach. Some folks also like to turn off BEMF but that can really complicate things since with some locos you can’t. Also the BEMF algorithms differ in different brands, another reason to use the same decoders.
Hi Larry, nice video. I also use the Accutrak II speedometer for speed matching my HO scale locomotives. I use a method similar to yours, but with some differences. I've gone a built on a board an oval of track, 22" radius. I connect it through my NCE PowerCab to my PC so I can use JMRI Decoder Pro. I've decided that my mainline locomotives will have a top speed of 66 smph at speed step 28/126 (28 step and 126 step mode respectively) and half that, 33 smph, at step 14/63 (most traditional fright diesels were geared for a maximum speed of 65 mph, and unless you have a large layout you;ll probably never run that fast anyway).
I then warm up the locomotive in question from 5 minutes to 30 minutes, based on whether I've run it in or it's brand new. This way the motor is warmed up, as I have seen that as it runs and the motor warms up it goes faster until a point is reached that it is running at its maximum speed. I then stop the locomotive in front of the speedometer tunnel, wait a moment, and then in 28 step mode notch it up to step 1, see if it moves at all, and if it does, how fast does it run at that step. I aim for a speed of 1.5 mph, allowing for a range of +/- 0.2 mph. I usually adjust this using CV2, although I have found that SoundTraxx decoders, whether Tsunami, Tsunami2, or Econami, will never run that slow, even with CV2 set to 0. So for SoundTraxx I usually end up using the speed table with custom 28 step curve. I then adjust CV67, step 1, to get that 1.5 smph speed.
Next I adjust the maximum speed. I accelerate the locomotive back up to speed step 28 (28 step mode), and let it settle in at the top speed. If I'm using CV5 for the settings I will reduce the value of CV5 in POM mode until I reach 66 smph (initially I'll reduce it by 10 steps until I get close to 66 smph, and then go in 1 step intervals). If I'm using the speed table I reduce the speed one step at a time until it is running at 66 smph, then read from the speed table what the value for that speed step is, and then program CV94 (speed step 28) to that value.
Finally I adjust the mod point, using a similar approach with CV6, or the speed table reading the value for the speed step when the speed of 33 smph is achieved. After that I run the locomotive in reverse and if necessary adjust the value of CV95, reverse trim, to get the locomotive's reverse speed to match the forward speed.
There are some exceptions because I have some locomotives that just will not get up to a speed of 66 smph. If they are a little off I adjust it so the midpoint is still 33 smph, and then adjust the maximum so that maximum speed will be reached at the appropriate speed step to match the other locomotive's performance. If they are way too slow, than I accept that they will be loners running by themselves.
I’m the real world when you MU two units together . If it a EMU and a GE the EMU wil be faster loading up . If the GE is the lead Unit the EMD will knock the crap out if the GE 4stroke EMD And GE 4 cycles. Cool
I wish that kind of real world info were more readily available to modelers.
Larry, Great refresher I have the AccuTrack II SpeedOmeter Love it. My two engines that where speed matched and consisted are out for Decoder Upgrade. Will need to redo my speed matching when they come back. Looking forward to your video on Speed table 28 Question If My engines at speed step 1 goes 2.6 MPH what value do I put in CV2? Thanks
Very good information, I would put my 6 Sigma grain of salt and recommend to measure each of the speeds 5 or 10 times and then take the average. Is not so difficult as will give you better points. By the way, I finally got my copy of your wiring book, I love it, it was about two months in the mail as mail service it's quite slow down here in Mexico
You sound like a statistician. I am sure you might get different values each time but they won’t deviate much so an average should be about the same as a median.
A mention here of the so called "Golden Loco" which you can use to set a standard on your layout, or may be agree a standard in a club for the speeds.
Also a reminder to make a note of the speed CV's for each loco you do so if you purchase another loco of the same maker and type, it will give you a starting point of what to set the CV's at (perhaps use a spreadsheet on your PC).
Good point on keeping notes!
It appeared it was set at KPH.
Also first thing I noticed. Was in KPH Mode.
Great Video! One question: Which loco should be adjusted? This would really seem to come into play if you are matching more than two locos. I’ve heard before that the lead one should set the baseline and the other(s) should be matched to that one. Looking forward to next weeks segment.
That can actually get complicated. It depends on how much leeway you have with the initial settings. For example if one is already maxed out at the top speed then the only thing you can do is lower the top speed in both to give you some wiggle room for further adjustments. Same for the bottom of the curve-if they both are at the bottom then you have to increase the values enough to make some adjustments. The simplest adjustments are for the midpoint since you can easily go up or down form there. So your first step is to identify these types of idiosyncrasies as they will dictate which adjustments to make first and with which loco(s). The more locos in a consist the more complicated it can get. I set all speed settings to the factory default including momentum and go from there once I know which are faster or slower at each of the three speeds. In some cases you actually may want to decide on the lead loco after doing the initial measurements. It really is an iterative process in those cases which is why having locos with close to the same gearing and motor and the same decoder helps. And as I said don’t assume you can achieve a perfect 1:1:1 match.
Have you ever had a chance to Speedmatch MTH trains... omg it's a nightmare... but all others I'm able to Speedmatch successfully... only MTH trains have been a little bit of a beast🤷♂️
I nave one MTH loco and that is one too many! Why they felt the need to try and reinvent the wheel is beyond me, especially since their wheel has many flat spots on it.
@@TheDCCGuy 🤣😅 Good and True reply- Lol...
This isn’t about speed match cause my locomotives are already matched but I am wanting to set prime mover volumes as per throttle speed. All 7 of my ho dcc have Loksound 5’s and I use Lokprogrammer.
Are the speed matched locomotives supposed to hold their match across different DCC systems (Digitrax/NCE/etc)?
Yes, the speed curve is stored in the decoder and i dependent of the DCC system.
Great info, thanks! Now, I noticed the faster one (green) is in front of MU. Does it matter which is front and which is back? I look forward to your input.
That can actually get complicated. It depends on how much leeway you have with the initial settings. For example if one is already maxed out at the top speed then the only thing you can do is lower the top speed in both to give you some wiggle room for further adjustments. Same for the bottom of the curve-if they both are at the bottom then you have to increase the values enough to make some adjustments. The simplest adjustments are for the midpoint since you can easily go up or down form there. So your first step is to identify these types of idiosyncrasies as they will dictate which adjustments to make first and with which loco(s). The more locos in a consist the more complicated it can get. I set all speed settings to the factory default including momentum and go from there once I know which are faster or slower at each of the three speeds. In some cases you actually may want to decide on the lead loco after doing the initial measurements. It really is an iterative process in those cases which is why having locos with close to the same gearing and motor and the same decoder helps. And as I said don’t assume you can achieve a perfect 1:1:1 match.
@@TheDCCGuy, makes a lot of sense. Thank you!
Larry, While the topic is "Speed Matching" there apparently is a parallel topic. If you buy a second "identical engine" you may want to "clone the engine" and change the engine number. Both engines should then be matched. Comments please?
Assuming you use the same decoder you can easily do it using DecoderPro. Just use the duplicate loco option, change the id, and its done.
How do you know what the OEM speed settings are? 🤔 Can't you read those numbers on a programming track? Thanks in advance ☺️
Yes, you can read back and change the settings of all CVs using the service mode programming track. Just read the programming instructions in your manual. Also before you blow a lot of time trying to get the speeds to match perfectly try running the consist with a reasonable string of cars. Put the slower loco up front and let the faster one take up much of the load and see if they perform as desired. Have fun.
Awesome! Thank you Larry! 😊
Great video! I recently installed a Digitrax SDH187MT decoder with a decoder Buddy Mini in my Proto 2000 E7. I made sure the solder joints were tight, but the locomotive jerks when moving. I tried adjusting the speed step, but to no avail. Everything works except the motor. Can you help? I would like to speedmatch this locomotive with my other proto 2000 E7 that has a SDH167D digitrax decoder.
Watch video 44. Cracked gears are a common problem with LL Proto locos.
it wasn't the gears. The 8 pin lok sound decoder that was in it didn't cause the locomotive to jerk, but as I said I wanted to have sound, and to speed-match it with my other proto 2000 E7 that has a digitrax decoder. Do you think I need a new motor?
Did it jerk on DC power before installing the decoder? Did you give it a good clean and relube before installing the decoder? Also,try cleaning the wheels.
I didn't check on that but I did give it a good relube. I don't have a DC powered track to test it on. I probably sound really stupid but how would I go about doing that? I also cleaned the wheels recently.
Well if lubing didn’t work then that really only leaves cleaning the wheels and track. I really doubt the decoder would do it but then I’ve never tried this decoder so can’t say. You might also recheck the gears as those cracks can be so thin it can be hard ti see them. The best way to check is see if you can turn one wheel while holding the one on the other side. If the gear is solid then you shouldn’t be able to turn the wheel.
There is a question I wanted to ask of you that is not DCC related, but related to tuning our trains. You might be able to do a video on this subject or maybe you already did. I have watched many model railroad videos on CZcams this is happening in many of the videos. I remember this happening on club layouts too. Our model railroads are really an illusion. However, these two things tend to ruin the illusion for me. One is the boxcar that behaves as though the coupler is a rubber band. It play out and snaps back as it is pulled down the track and continues this behavior while in motion. The other is the box car that is just a shaking and a jumping as it is also pulled down the track. That is the worst offender ruining the illusion. What is causing these two things to occur? It is truck wheel sets out of gauge? Lack of weights? The aligning spring in the coupler? Could it be the holes in the side frames where the axles sit and rotate? Or is it junk built up on the wheels? I don't think it is poor track work or all the cars in the train would be doing it. I am really curious if this is something we can prevent.
The coupler issue may be due to 3 causes. First some prototype cars have been equipped with cushion type couplers that literally move with the load and I believe have springs built into them. Models of those cars also may have springs in the coupler pocket to mimic that action. The more likely cause is poor installation of the couplers. When properly installed KD couplers fit tight enough that this should not happen. However some other styles have larger openings on their shanks that do not fit the coupler pocket properly and lead to this. Finally there is always some slack in couplers, both real and model, and in trains with a lot of cars the slack action is visible. In that case it is a desirable facet of the model train looking just like the prototype.
The wobble, bobble action of some cars can also be due to several causes. First as you say grunge can build up on the wheel treads to different degrees and cause wobble. Second, some cheaply made truck frames can warp. And finally the wheels themselves may be poorly made or be defective and be out of round. I have a Rapido baggage car that was like this and they sent me a new set of wheels that fixed it. It is always a good idea to check each car for the second and third problems before putting them on the track and to regularly check wheels for grunge buildup as part of a regular maintenance schedule.
Hey Larry,
A very helpful tool, I ordered one allready for loco speed testing.
By the way, when setting up an easily non sound decoder for driving only into a steam engine that hasen't enough space to add a sound decoder. I will need to find out the correctly scale speed.
The prototype loce is an old bavarian two axle drown loco without sloped tender in the back. It has a wheel arrangement as 0-4-0T and the prototype went 45 Km/h or 28 ⅛ mph only by full speed (CV 5) and had been built by Krauss Locomotive Works of Munich in 1880.
So the mid of Speed Curve would be around 27 ½ Km/h or ~ 14 mph (CV 6).
On first speed step I would set 0 on CV 2.
The worth in CV 3 could be 20 or higher and the worth in CV 4 could be less of 60.
How to find out the correctly set up worths of the needed speed steps speeds to programming the CVs?
How I can do it best to get a well prototypical setup of a loco, like this?
Thanks for helping me with my question.
Ingo
See video 244. It is focused on speed matching multiple locos but could be used for just setting the prototype speed of one loco. Also be aware that CV2 can be set to a value greater than 0 to compensate for a stiff mechanism. You want the loco to just begin moving when you advance the throttle to speed step 1.
If you do not have a way to "read" current CV values how do you determine where to start your value adjustments?
You can’t, which is why it is a very useful thing to have. That said some decoder manufacturers provide listing of their default settings. So if it is a new decoder, and if you have such a list of defaults, and if you have not made any changes then you have a starting point. You can also do a reset to factory values and then use the default listing as a starting point.
@@TheDCCGuy Gotcha, thank you Larry! I just finished speedmatching my 2 Rapido F40PH's and believe it or not, both with Loksound decoders, there was a pretty noticable difference in speed so there is also a pretty good difference in the CV values programmed into 2,6, and 5 currently. I will say this new Accutrack 2 speedo makes it super easy! 👍
Do Broadway limited f units (a,b) need to be speed matched (n scale) new layout with new unitrack and new nice powercab
*nce
They likely are close enough to not need speed matching. However with some models they operate at different speeds when going in reverse compared ti forwards and in that case may need some tweaking. You also may end up with one that has an out of spec motor that runs at slightly different speeds. So the best test is give them all the same address, line them up with about an inch between them, and run them at the same throttle setting and see how they respond. Finally check to make sure they were lubricated at the factory. I have occasionally received 2 of the same locos and had one arrive dry as a bone. Running them dry can cause damage and make the run at different speeds.
Great tool, little bit pricey.
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Hi
just got a note from George of Soundtraxx and there is not any order from programing
Yes, George and I discussed this issue a week or so ago and both agreed that many modelers overthink this and obsess on getting a digit for digit match, which really is overkill.